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Thread: Hitler's normal voice- Reason why he attacked SU

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Hitler's normal voice- Reason why he attacked SU

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Irving's early work was quite good, at both academic and popular levels, as illustrated by The War Between the Generals.

    His later excursions into bizarre revionism do not detract from the quality of his earlier work, but most people seem to throw the baby out with the bathwater by dismissing all of his work because of the implausibly poor quality of his Holocaust denying work etc..
    I don't totally agree. While, I have not read Irving due to his relatively recent tainting and defiling of himself, I think there were some clues (based on critiques I've read of his work) such as his clear, baseless exaggeration of civilian casualty figures in his (first?) book on Dresden. But then again, I haven't read it so I could be wrong...

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Hitler's normal voice- Reason why he attacked SU

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardee View Post
    ...To be fair and look on "the other hand," German Intelligence DID have a variety of "lapses" concerning the USSR in particular. BUT by the time this film claims the conversation took place, the German army would have already "chewed through" Soviet units without arms or ammo, would have known there had been no build-up necessary to make an offensive in Romania or elsewhere, etc., etc. Others have pointed out Hitler's desire for Living Space and other inconsistencies. But I guess some folks will believe what they want to believe....
    I think it should be stated, and I am not s student of the Eastern Front, that many of the Soviet Red Army units that were initially steamrolled by the Heer/SS advance were run by commanders who were ordered --by none other than Stalin-- to stand down on pane of death in order not to 'provoke' the Germans massing on the border so obviously that a Soviet boys-Pioneer troop would have known a general attack was imminent. I think Beevor goes into this in his book Stalingrad, and states that some Red Army commanders did take their lives in their hands by ordering convenient "live-fire exercises" on the eve of Barbarossa, and issued ammo and instructions to battle positions to their troops. They tended to fare a bit better...

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Hitler's normal voice- Reason why he attacked SU

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    The judgements in Irving v. Lipstadt reveal a consistent pattern of the manipulation by Irving of his sources, not to elucidate the Past insofar as possible in its own terms, but to prove preconceived hypotheses of a rather far-fetched nature.
    He's not the only one to suffer from that to some degree. There is no shortage of respectable and respected historians (and others such as economists and sociologists) who approach their topics from a particular viewpoint, such as Marxist or feminist* analysis, or to prove pre-conceived opinions (I wouldn't put it as high as hypotheses in many cases) such as, in Australian history, the Aborigine as 'the noble savage' and the passive victim of rampant racism by an unremittingly inhumane and violent white society when a dispassionate assessment of the evidence does not support that extreme and narrow conclusion, any more than the opposing extreme represents a balanced interpretation.

    I doubt it's possible to write a completely objective and impartial history on many major topics, and notably some aspects of WWII and related aspects such as the Holocaust and Japan's brutal treatment of POWs and civilians. Irving's views on the Holocaust and the official Japanese line on China and WWII, particularly up to the mid-1990s, are examples of absurdly distorted presentations which are contradicted by all the evidence. They are nearer to assertions than deductions based on a careful assessment of all the evidence.

    But, as writing history is an exersise in interpretation of facts (and facts which may themselves be disputed) rather than the production of correct or incorrect results as in arithmetic, even a careful examination of all the evidence can lead to widely divergent and even completely contradictory conclusions. A perfect example is the different views surrounding the use of the atomic bombs against Japan. The dominant view is that they were necessary to end the Pacific War and were used exclusively for that purpose, but other views include that they were used to demonstrate American power to the Soviets to curb Soviet expansion east and west; ditto to the communists contesting control of China with the nationalists; to demonstrate to Japan that it could not afford to resist American power in future; or as an experiment to see how how atomic weapons worked against real targets and people; or that they were used simply to justify the huge effort and expense of the Manhattan Project. My impression is that there is an element of truth, to varying degrees, in all of those views and that they all form part of a balanced consideration of the reasons the bombs were used, but some proponents of a particular viewpoint make the, in my opinion, mistake of focusing disproportionately on one aspect and thereby present a distorted interpretation. Those approaches tend to reflect a bias by the writer, but not necessarily the same bias. For example, the 'the atomic bombs were not necessary to end the Pacific War but were dropped purely to inhibit Soviet expansion' thesis suits pro-Soviet opinion as much as it suits anti-American opinion which has no pro-Soviet element.

    In the end, I doubt that there can ever be a completely 'correct' interpretation of many historical events and their causes, but I think that there can be interpretations which patently fly in the face of the available evidence, such as Holocaust denial, which do not deserve to be accepted as worthy of serious consideration, at least until further evidence emerges to tip the balance in favour of what at the time appear to be bizarre opinions.


    *A fine example of how 'analysis' can be distorted by adherence to a particular view is a minor report produced down here a couple of decades ago, with funding from a government legal aid body, on domestic violence in lesbian relationships. As a lawyer who had handled a reasonable number of lesbian domestic violence cases I had formed the impression that they were at least as violent as many heterosexual relationships and that the incidence of violence was quite possibly higher in lesbian relationships. The report supported my impression, but concluded that it was not because women had any greater, or even any, propensity for violence against other women as they are by nature caring and loving souls, but that the pressures and traumas of living in a male dominated society was the root cause and that men ultimately were responsible for the violence lesbians inflicted upon their partners.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Hitler's normal voice- Reason why he attacked SU

    Nice quality audio clip
    In the everyday life Hitler voice is low, but the records from his speeches are bad quality mostly or Hitler hoot and this made his voice unrecognizable
    "The consciousness that I am alive, makes me wild dreams every day"
    (Helmut Wolff lieutenant colonel, one who survived the breakout of Budapest)

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Hitler's normal voice- Reason why he attacked SU

    IIRC in his Dresden book Irving arrived at his casualty figures by uncritically repeating those provided by Goebbels. Which in turn were arrived at simply by adding a zero to the numbers he was getting from the rescue services.
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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