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Thread: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

  1. #1
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    Default An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    Something I wasn't aware of until just now.

    The formal surrender of the Japanese Imperial Government, the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, and all Japanese and Japanese-controlled armed forces wherever located, was signed aboard the battleship USS Missouri (BB-63) at 0908 on 2 September 1945. Looking down upon the ceremony, to present a reminder of an earlier occasion on which Japanese truculence had been humbled by American sea power was the American Flag which had flown over Commodore Matthew Calbraith Perry's flagship USS Mississippi (Sidewheel Steamer) when he steamed into the Bay of Yedo (Tokyo Bay, as it was known after 1868) in 1853.
    http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq69-1.htm

    Perry humbled Japanese 'truculence'?

    The 'truculence' was simply Japan wanting to exercise its perfect sovereign right to control its borders and trade.

    Perry 'humbled' it only by belligerent 'gunboat diplomacy' solely in the interests of American exploitation of Japan for America's benefit.

    The American arrogance in the quote reflects a distorted American view of history, while the organisation and calculated insult to Japan in triumphantly flying Perry's flag over the surrender ceremony suggests that for some levels of the American leadership the victory over Japan was merely another step in reinforcing American military power over Japan for nearly a century rather than just the conclusion of the Pacific War.

    Flying Perry's flag at the surrender is a small event but hugely symbolic. I find it quite repugnant. To the extent that it reflects unchanged American belligerence towards and contempt for Japan in the ninety or so years between Perry's assault on Japan and the end of WWII, I can see why the Japanese were justifiably hostile to America and why some Japanese then thought and still think that America brought the Pacific War on itself.

    Admiral Yamamoto is reputed to have said that he joined the IJN "So I can return Perry's visit." e.g. http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=2845,4009611 Given the contempt for Japan shown by flying Perry's flag over the surrender ceremony, I can understand his position.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 03-07-2012 at 06:18 AM.
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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    Of course you are right - the arrogance and general ignorance of US citizens (re: history) has been discussed in other threads.

    Few Americans realize that the US has been involved in Asia for a long time.

    A few years after Perry, 16 July 1863, the steam Frigate USS Wyoming engaged several rebel Japanese vessels in the Battle of Shimonoseki Straits in Japan. Cpt McDougal sank two Japanese ships and damaged another.

    The RN was also involved in this event, William Seeley, an American serving as an ordinary seaman with the RN received the VC for actions during this action. The first American to receive the VC.

    The United States expedition to Korea or Shinmiyangyo or simply the Korean Expedition of 1871 was the first American military action in Korea. It took place predominantly on and around the Korean island of Ganghwa. The reason for the presence of the American naval force in Korea was to support an American diplomatic delegation sent to establish trade and political relations with the peninsular nation, to ascertain the fate of the General Sherman merchant ship, and to establish a treaty assuring aid for shipwrecked sailors. When Korean shore batteries attacked two American warships on June 1, 1871, a punitive expedition was launched ten days later after the commanding American admiral failed to receive an official apology from the Koreans. The isolationist nature of the Joseon Dynasty government and the assertiveness of the Americans led to a misunderstanding between the two parties that changed a diplomatic expedition into an armed conflict. On June 10, about 650 Americans landed and captured several forts, killing over 200 Korean troops with a loss of only three dead. Korea continued to refuse to negotiate with the United

    American history books rarely point out the LTC Geo. Custer was, in fact, invading another country when he was destroyed; or that the US Military was suppose to be protecting the Sioux lands from just such an invasion.

    Very few Americans know that the great and famous Hunk papa Sioux War Leader Crazy Horse (yes the same Crazy Horse that defeated Custer) was a US Army Sgt.

    Four months before his death he enlisted in the Army as a scout and was awarded the rank of Sgt.
    This item is found in an excellent book, Fort Robinson and the American West (Nebraska Press, 1999) by Thomas R. Buecker, curator of the Nebraska State Historical Society’s Fort Robinson Museum. Other books that corroborate this fact are the two volumes of the Interviews of Eli S. Ricker (Nebraska, 2005), and the most outstanding account of the warrior chief’s life, Crazy Horse, a Lakota Life, by Kingsley M. Bray (Oklahoma Press, 2006).


    “Custer was a pussy.” Sam Elliot as SGM Basil Plumley, We Were Soldiers

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    Mike you should move to Japan.

    Sun you shouold talk to a few survivors of the Jap POW camps or Vets of the Kokoda or mabe a few Chines could tell you about 300.000 murdered people in Nanking. You are beyond stupid.

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    *******
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    Quote Originally Posted by tankgeezer View Post
    *******
    As I was
    Last edited by muscogeemike; 03-07-2012 at 10:06 PM.

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    Mike you should move to Japan.

    Sun you shouold talk to a few survivors of the Jap POW camps or Vets of the Kokoda or mabe a few Chines could tell you about 300.000 murdered people in Nanking. You are beyond stupid.
    I guessing you mean son, if so I very much doubt you are that much older than me. And if your icom is meant to imply you are a VN vet - well so am I. I’ve been to Japan, for two years. I wouldn’t want to go back. I don’t, in any way, intend to defend Japan or what the Japanese did in WWII, I merely pointed out that the US was involved in Japanese affairs long before Pear Harbor and that far too many Americans are ignorant of our own history.

    The “day of infamy” was anticipated and our response was (at command levels) pathetic.

    Never take what a teacher, or TV, or “experts” (and I am no expert on anything) at face value; in my opinion most Americans (probably most people) rely on movies and preachers for their information.

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    [QUOTE=

    Admiral Yamamoto is reputed to have said that he joined the IJN "So I can return Perry's visit." .[/QUOTE]

    That went really well for him.....

    Like with the bombs-it is foolish of to assess 1945 thinking with our 2012 views.

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    Sun
    muscogeemike: It may be conceit on my part, but I think that that comment was addressed to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    you shouold talk to a few survivors of the Jap POW camps
    I have. They didn’t talk about it much outside their own circles when I knew them a few decades ago.

    None of them volunteered any opinions about America flying Perry’s flag at the surrender ceremony. Possibly because, like me until about 24 hours ago, they were unaware of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    or Vets of the Kokoda
    I have, along with veterans of the wider New Guinea and related campaigns.

    None of them volunteered any opinions about America flying Perry’s flag at the surrender ceremony. Possibly because, like me until about 24 hours ago, they were unaware of it.



    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    or mabe a few Chines could tell you about 300.000 murdered people in Nanking.
    Yes, I am aware of that. And of the Sook Ching massacres and many other atrocities by Japanese against Chinese, and others, before and during WWII.

    I haven’t seen any opinions by Chinese about America flying Perry’s flag at the surrender ceremony.

    I am also aware that Japan’s incursion into China was in part an expansionist move to exploit China which challenged much earlier European and American incursions into China to exploit it for their purposes. The Japanese moves into China reflect the same sort of European and American arrogance and belligerence which saw Commodore Perry force Japan into trade with America for America’s benefit, following similar European, primarily British, conduct in China. And elsewhere in preceding centuries.

    There is more than a little irony in FDR presiding over most of the Pacific War which in one respect was a contest between America and some European powers on one hand and Japan on the other to exploit China, which went back to FDR’s maternal grandfather profiting magnificently more than a century before from the opium trade with China, at China’s economic and social expense, which gave FDR the financial resources which helped him to become President.


    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    You are beyond stupid.
    Quite possibly, but you haven’t offered any evidence in support of that assertion or otherwise attempted to put forward a rational, or any, argument against my first post.

    The experiences of POWs under the Japanese; veterans of any combat with them; or civilian victims of Japanese atrocities which you cite have nothing to do with understanding the larger picture of relations between the combatant nations before, during and after the war. Instead, perhaps you could focus on what I said in my first post.

    You might consider that if Perry had not applied duress to Japan to force it to engage with America for America’s sole benefit, then Japan would have remained in splendid isolation and the Pacific War would not have occurred.

    You might also like to consider why it was so terribly wrong for Japan to engage in expansion by war into China in the 1930s when European powers and America had been doing it for the previous century and had pretty much brought China to its knees in the process.

    I remain of the view that flying Perry’s flag at the surrender ceremony was a carefully calculated and quite unnecessary insult to Japan, implying that America could always dictate to Japan what Japan must do and that the Japanese people who had inhabited their islands from time immemorial, unlike the Americans who had occupied America for only a few hundred years, were not entitled to determine their own destiny.

    My experience of all nationalities is that none of them receive such contempt well; that it merely prolongs ill will; and provides a rallying point for those disposed to avenge what they see as past injustices.

    Or perhaps you as an American if America had been defeated by Japan in WWII would not be upset by, something along the same humiliating lines, American commanders being forced to sign the instrument of surrender on the Yamato with the Yamato flying the USS Arizona’s flag, just to rub in the defeat?

    As a general position I prefer Churchill’s view “In war, resolution; in defeat, defiance; in victory, magnanimity.”, albeit in Japan’s case in WWII as sternly modified by the Australian commander Gen Blamey on receiving the surrender of the IJA Second Army on Moratai:

    “In receiving your surrender I do not recognise you as an honourable and gallant foe, but you will be treated with due but severe courtesy in all matters.

    I recall the treacherous attack on Australian ally, China. I recall the treacherous attack upon the British Empire and upon the United States of America in December 1941, at a time when your authorities were making the pretence of ensuring peace between us.

    I recall the atrocities inflicted upon the person of Australian nationals as prisoners of war and internees, designed to reduce them by punishment and starvation to slavery.

    In the light of these evils I will enforce most rigorously all orders issued to you, so let there be no delay or hesitation in their fulfilment at your peril.

    The Japanese navy has been destroyed. The Japanese merchant fleet has been reduced to a mere fraction.

    The Japanese armies have been beaten everywhere and all that remained for them was to await their total destruction.

    Japanese cities lie in waste and Japanese industry has been destroyed.

    Never before in history has so numerous a nation been so completely defeated. To escape the complete destruction of the nation, the Emperor of Japan has yielded to the Allied forces, and an instrument of total surrender has been signed in his name. He has charged you to obey the orders which I shall give you.

    In carrying out these orders the Japanese army and navy organisation will be retained for convenience.

    Instructions will be issued by the designated Australian commanders to the commanders of the respective Japanese forces, placing upon you and your subordinate commanders the responsibility for carrying out your Emperor's directions to obey all orders given by me to you.

    You will ensure that all Allied personnel, prisoners of war or internees in Japanese hands are safeguarded and nourished and delivered over to Allied commanders. You will collect, lay down and safeguard all arms, ammunition and instruments of war until such time as they are taken over by the designated Australian commanders. You will be given adequate time to carry this out.

    An official date will be named and any Japanese found in possession, after that date, of any arms, ammunition or instrument of war of any kind will be dealt with summarily by the Australian commander on the spot.”
    That seems to me to be satisfactory in the circumstances and sufficient to let Japan know it had been beaten and that it could not expect more than the minimum treatment in view of its past conduct.

    Gratuitous and irrelevant insults like flying Perry’s flag could add nothing positive to such a statement from the Allied viewpoint but could light a, or fan an ancient, fire, as represented by my earlier quote attributed to Admiral Yamamoto, of longstanding resentment in a beaten people, to no good purpose from the Allied viewpoint.

    Anyway, given the way MacArthur went on to protect the Emperor and America later went on to protect various Japanese war criminals from their just desserts at the end of the 1940’s as America sought to enlist Japan to join it in a common cause against communists in China and the USSR, all that flying Perry’s flag could have achieved was to interfere with American collaboration with its former enemy only a few years after the bitter Pacific War had ended.
    ..
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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    Typical style of reply by someone who will defend any action by their country and not accept repercussions that happen because of those actions, instead they will claim that all enemies should be cowed and humiliated. Never thinking that maybe, just maybe their actions in the past actually caused trouble later on for them.

    The whole might is right attitude I see with some people especially in the US (mostly by those claiming to be EX US Forces and mostly USMC) does not endear them to other countries and causes problems far beyond the local action they are taking.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    Quote Originally Posted by leccy View Post
    Typical style of reply by someone who will defend any action by their country and not accept repercussions that happen because of those actions, instead they will claim that all enemies should be cowed and humiliated. Never thinking that maybe, just maybe their actions in the past actually caused trouble later on for them.

    The whole might is right attitude I see with some people especially in the US (mostly by those claiming to be EX US Forces and mostly USMC) does not endear them to other countries and causes problems far beyond the local action they are taking.
    Hmmm. Well that is why you have the freedom to print the drool you post today. Get over it.
    Last edited by tankgeezer; 03-08-2012 at 02:08 PM. Reason: Image removed.

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    MJ1, I must remind you that polite discourse is expected of all members of these boards. Your adherence to that ideal is appreciated. You may consider this a moderator notice.

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    OK but it should be a two way street. Insult my country your insulting me.
    Cheers

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
    Ladies and Gentlemen - here we have a prime example of the US Education System.

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    Default Re: An unnecessary insult to Japan at its surrender?

    [QUOTE=MJ1;183253]OK but it should be a two way street. Insult my country your insulting me.
    Cheers[/QUOTE
    It goes all ways, keep sharp talk in PM's, not on the boards.This goes for everyone. Defaulters will be placed in the care of our part time Beadle, Sister Mary Knuckles, of Our Lady of perpetual Inquisition convent.
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