Türk porno yayini yapan http://www.smfairview.com ve http://www.idoproxy.com adli siteler rokettube videolarini da HD kalitede yayinlayacagini acikladi. Ayrica porno indir ozelligiyle de http://www.mysticinca.com adli porno sitesi devreye girdi.

View Poll Results: What would have been better choice?

Voters
7. You may not vote on this poll
  • Panther of course, developing the tank lenghtened the war for the Germans

    4 57.14%
  • The III/IV woud have been smarter choice, the benefits of the Panther are overrated

    3 42.86%
Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789
Results 121 to 130 of 130

Thread: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

  1. #121
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Buffalo, New York
    Posts
    7,404

    Default Re: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

    I also recall the T-34's vast production reduced its unit cost to quite a bargain. I think all this cost-per-tank thing has been explored here before, with the conscientious being that RM for RM, the Panther was the best overall value as an AFV in relation to its capabilities, and Stugs destroyed far more Allied tanks than any other types of AFVs...

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

    I just leave it here...
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	conwalterpz4w02grozg0.jpg 
Views:	466 
Size:	28.2 KB 
ID:	5817
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	conwalterpz4w05groxp4.jpg 
Views:	427 
Size:	33.5 KB 
ID:	5818

    I think it is possible construction. Enhance wheels (like Jagdpanzer IV), move engine back a little, straight front armor plate will be lighter than "staged" with two pieces . The result is a reserve capacity for the new turret and gun.
    Last edited by spyder; 01-21-2012 at 10:45 AM.

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Cordoba-Argentina
    Posts
    6,392

    Default Re: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    I think I've read the Panther wasn't really much more expensive to produce than the late-war vintage Mk IV...
    That information is wrong, the torsion bars suspension with interleaved wheels alone in Panther V was 300 % more expensive than the simple leaf springs bogies in the Pz IV.

    Panther had 80mm front armor, Jagdpanzer IV/70 had 80mm.
    Jagdpanzer IV is not a tank, when you dispose the turret you can have more armor, aniway is not about the armor alone, the gun in the Panther was far better than the one used for III/IV projekts, including the sloped armor w166 drawing, the KwK 40 fired a 6.5 kilograms projectile at 745 meters per second, now the kwK 42 of the Panther fired 7.2 kilograms projectile at 935 meters per second. The Kwk 40 was useful in the Africa, mediterranean and Western Front, but after 1943 with the introduction of a new generation of soviet it was unsuficient for the battle in the East.

    Probably a good strategy would be to use the III/IV in the west and the Panther in the East, I guess is too simple for many german minds of ww2.

    Last edited by Panzerknacker; 01-21-2012 at 05:33 PM.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Cordoba-Argentina
    Posts
    6,392

    Default Re: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

    Quote Originally Posted by spyder View Post
    I just leave it here...
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	conwalterpz4w02grozg0.jpg 
Views:	466 
Size:	28.2 KB 
ID:	5817
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	conwalterpz4w05groxp4.jpg 
Views:	427 
Size:	33.5 KB 
ID:	5818

    I think it is possible construction. Enhance wheels (like Jagdpanzer IV), move engine back a little, straight front armor plate will be lighter than "staged" with two pieces . The result is a reserve capacity for the new turret and gun.
    The model there is nice, but there is a mistake, the turret in that image is the one called "schmallturm" ( by the way schmal means narrow not small) designed for the Panther ausf F wich is painfully overweight for the leaf springs in that chassis.

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    The model there is nice, but there is a mistake, the turret in that image is the one called "schmallturm" ( by the way schmal means narrow not small) designed for the Panther ausf F wich is painfully overweight for the leaf springs in that chassis.
    I know that "schmallturm" is "narrowturret". But the weight of "schmallturm" 5 ton more than weight of the standard PzIV turret.
    If designers had made ​​some steps to reduce weight and increase the suspension (I reminded again the Jagdpanzer ), the chassis would have been able to carry it.
    Jagdpanzer IV have been able to carry heavy frontal armor and gun from Panther.
    Another thing is that the Germans did not have time for serious changes in the structures of their tanks... If the Panzer 4 dramatically outdated in 1942 (not 1944), we would probably see such improved Panzer 4.

    Btw, can anyone comment on this rumor: in 1944 one of the factories received technical documentation for start production of Panzer 3/4, but the production did not start (other sources tells that produced half a dozen, but no photo, maybe destroyed during the bombing).

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    South West
    Posts
    953

    Default Re: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

    Quote Originally Posted by spyder View Post
    I know that "schmallturm" is "narrowturret". But the weight of "schmallturm" 5 ton more than weight of the standard PzIV turret.
    If designers had made ​​some steps to reduce weight and increase the suspension (I reminded again the Jagdpanzer ), the chassis would have been able to carry it.
    Jagdpanzer IV have been able to carry heavy frontal armor and gun from Panther.
    Another thing is that the Germans did not have time for serious changes in the structures of their tanks... If the Panzer 4 dramatically outdated in 1942 (not 1944), we would probably see such improved Panzer 4.

    Btw, can anyone comment on this rumor: in 1944 one of the factories received technical documentation for start production of Panzer 3/4, but the production did not start (other sources tells that produced half a dozen, but no photo, maybe destroyed during the bombing).
    The Jagdpanzer IV could not really carry the weight of the frontal armour and gun from the Panther, despite many attempts to upgrade the suspension especially at the front of the vehicle it was still too nose heavy. The front suspension was always suffering from failure and it was very awkward to drive. It had long reached the maximum weight you could bolt onto the Panzer IV chassis, to add the extra weight at the front it had to be removed from elsewhere and ended up with a vehicle that was not balanced along its axis.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    13

    Default Re: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

    I see a lot of these threads about "is the Panther/Tiger/T34" the best, or in this case should the Germans have focused on the Panzer IV or the Panther. I find them interesting and think about it myself, but one part of the question always seems missing. This missing element is the context in which the tank/panzer will be used.

    It seems to me that Germany fought two different types of warfare on two different fronts. Much of the fighting on the Eastern front was over great distances of largely natural terrain that was exacerbated by heavy rains and snows. This was the battlefield in which the Panther was designed to fight with its long range gun, heavy frontal armor, wide tracks and advanced suspension system.

    The Western Front was much different where smaller, more nimble tanks excelled. Here the modernized Panzer IV seems to be the clear winner, as there are numerous examples of the failure of the Panther and other large tanks on the Western Front.

    It seems to me the real question is: Which of the varied tanks/panzers should the Germans have focused its scarce resources to fight? My answer is the Panther/JagdPanther combination on the Eastern front and the PanzerIV/StugIII/IVs on the Western Front. Forget about the Tigers, JagdTigers, etc.

    This is the Wehrmacht I would have built, if anyone had asked!

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Russia
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

    bradleyl30, I think that for the Eastern Front Pz IV fit better in terms of reliability. Panthers had problems with wheels in the chassis - there are very good dirt jammed. And if dirt freezing at night... Engineer Kniepkamp doomed german repairmen

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    13

    Default Re: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

    Admittedly, it was not perfect, but the Panzer IV had more trouble navigating the snow and mud when it was trying to cross it. Both had reliability problems as the war situation deteriorated and production standards plummeted, important alloys to make good steel became scarce and "non-essential" components were eliminated (such as making late model Panzer IVs with only hand-cranked turret controls.)

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    424

    Default Re: Would the III/IV been better project than the Panther?

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    That information is wrong, the torsion bars suspension with interleaved wheels alone in Panther V was 300 % more expensive than the simple leaf springs bogies in the Pz IV.
    perhaps, but the construction style of the hull and connecting all parts of the IV was still overengineered, were the Panther had a simple plate - welding "monocoque" concept.

    Jagdpanzer IV is not a tank, when you dispose the turret you can have more armor, aniway is not about the armor alone, the gun in the Panther was far better than the one used for III/IV projekts, including the sloped armor w166 drawing, the KwK 40 fired a 6.5 kilograms projectile at 745 meters per second, now the kwK 42 of the Panther fired 7.2 kilograms projectile at 935 meters per second. The Kwk 40 was useful in the Africa, mediterranean and Western Front, but after 1943 with the introduction of a new generation of soviet it was unsuficient for the battle in the East.
    Probably a good strategy would be to use the III/IV in the west and the Panther in the East, I guess is too simple for many german minds of ww2.
    You must admit that using two new slow-in-start-up production lines while in the constant need of new tanks was a step further than the road they walked already.
    I think they should have made the Panther less heavy. Something in-between (III/IV and Panther). Or even get rid of the sloped side sponsons in the III/IV if it helped widening the turret ring (making heavie rguns possible)... etc etc..... making a smaller Tiger with only the front sloped. A sloped armour that is still to thin is useless no?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	III_IV.jpg 
Views:	410 
Size:	21.6 KB 
ID:	6711
    Last edited by steben; 08-20-2013 at 11:38 AM.
    It is nice to have big heavy tanks, it is even nicer not to need them

Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •