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Thread: How many Merkavas were really lost?

  1. #1
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    Default How many Merkavas were really lost?

    Hi.
    Once i read the article ( seem military expert from Sweden) which claims the Israel specially decreaced their tank losses in propogandic purposes during the last attak of Lebanon.
    This video from Aljazira channel supports my doubts.What do you think friends, is it possible for israeli army to cover it's loses or it all just a pro-arab propogand?

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: how many Merkava's were really lost?

    No tank is invulnerable, as any Nation that ever built one has discovered. But the clip really does not show anything clearly, so I can't say that I saw any Mer Keva destroyed. Too much of the story was focused on events of the past, and not the subject. This strikes me as at best, sensational dramatization, and at worst, vulger propaganda. The clip itself is based on obfuscation, and misdirection. (lots of sizzle, but no bacon)

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    Default Re: how many Merkava's were really lost?

    Define "lost" - captured by the enemy, mobility killed and then destroyed to prevent capture, mobility killed and recovered, mechanical breakdown, what? Odds are the two sides are just using different definitions, with at a guess the Israelis defining "lost" as "permanently captured by Hezbollah and placed on display in Tehran" and Hezbollah defining "lost" as "scratched after being hit by one of our weapons".
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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    Default Re: how many Merkava's were really lost?

    I'm unaware of the issue and haven't looked at the link, but the IDF has never branded the Merkava as invulnerable--only that its front mounted engine enhances crew survivability...

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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    I watched a vid made by insurgents in Iraq and shown on Al Jazeera (also shown on youtube) it claimed to show hundreds of M1 Abrahms tanks destroyed by RPG. I managed to count just 5 different tanks (from many angles and distances and also in the US recovery compound) of the dozens of shots they showed, most looked like damaged or destroyed by IED and some were M2 Bradleys.

    When sides are fighting a propaganda war it will be hard to get true facts.
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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by leccy View Post
    I watched a vid made by insurgents in Iraq and shown on Al Jazeera (also shown on youtube) it claimed to show hundreds of M1 Abrahms tanks destroyed by RPG. I managed to count just 5 different tanks (from many angles and distances and also in the US recovery compound) of the dozens of shots they showed, most looked like damaged or destroyed by IED and some were M2 Bradleys.

    When sides are fighting a propaganda war it will be hard to get true facts.
    Indeed. I'm aware of an M-1A2 Abrams that took at least 13 strikes from insurgent rocket propelled grenades and still managed to stumble back to American controlled areas--albeit with the crew bleeding from their ears and the tank heavily damaged...

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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    Next thing we'll see on al-Jazeera is the use of the tactical "Acme Portable Hole" causing entire formations to drop out of sight,,

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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by tankgeezer View Post
    Next thing we'll see on al-Jazeera is the use of the tactical "Acme Portable Hole" causing entire formations to drop out of sight,,

    Seems you right mate. Actually one should be very naive to believe to arab channel I found an another article of Israeli author ( in russian) where he has counted al the tank losed.
    13 tanks were hit, 5 lost. 32 men of crew killed.

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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    You also have to look at what al-jazeera count as a 'tank'. British media are always calling any AFV a 'tank'. Most nations these days only have one type of MBT. It's possible they count any AFV (whether that is an APC, IFV, Recce AFV) as a tank.
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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    Although I am no expert in the Merkava, I can tell you Chevan that the last Israeli operation in Lebanon he lost a significant number of Merkava, the number will probably never be known because the Israelis never communicate on the subject. Be aware that the study had Hesbollah way to destroy a Merkava and put into practice in Lebanon, he fired behind the wheel sprocket, that was enough to cripple the tank, after the fighting ended some Israeli officers still have recognized that the doctrine of employment of their tank was not good.
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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    i.e. mobility kills, which can then be recovered and put back into service. It is very unlikely that the IDF would actually regard these as kills, even internally.
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredl109 View Post
    Although I am no expert in the Merkava, I can tell you Chevan that the last Israeli operation in Lebanon he lost a significant number of Merkava, the number will probably never be known because the Israelis never communicate on the subject..
    Well ,though officially the IDF has declared the figures of loses - something kinda couple of tank lost and few soldiers killed.

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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    The Israelis said they had 47 Merkava (Mk 2 and 4) hit with multiple missile strikes. Twenty two suffered penetrating hits losing 33 crew killed out of 400 deployed.

    Just been having a gander at a pro hizbullah site (Iranian military, which strangely has a few neo-nazis on) and they claimed 120 of 600 deployed were destroyed along with 3 Apache, 1 F16, 1 Sa'ar 5 (1 was damaged and out of action for 3 weeks) missile boat, 1 Sa'ar 4.5 missile boat, 1 drone and 30 assorted APC and engineer vehicles.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    It should be noted in this thread, without checking and completely IIRC, the Merkava is one of the only MBT's that not only has a front mounted engine (like a car) but also serves as essentially an IFV carrying a number of infantry and armored scouts. Thirty-three out of 400 seems like a higher than acceptable number, but one must factor in that the Merkava was designed to with stand heavy frontal fire from enemy tanks, and perhaps Hezbollah used tactics of rear ambush and letting tanks pass them by before opening fire...

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    Default Re: How many Merkavas were really lost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    one must factor in that the Merkava was designed to with stand heavy frontal fire from enemy tanks, and perhaps Hezbollah used tactics of rear ambush and letting tanks pass them by before opening fire...
    I think this is the major factor to any tank.To hold frontal hit in tank vs tank battle. It seems Merkava was designed on basis of experience of the battles with Siria/Egypt tank armades in 1973. Seems no one tank might be equally effective against ambush tactic from behind or side. nor even the Abrams.I think the relatively big loses of crewmans was determined by the new generation of anti-tank means , applied by Hezbollah.Rather then the by lacks of Merkava.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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