Türk porno yayini yapan http://www.smfairview.com ve http://www.idoproxy.com adli siteler rokettube videolarini da HD kalitede yayinlayacagini acikladi. Ayrica porno indir ozelligiyle de http://www.mysticinca.com adli porno sitesi devreye girdi.
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 40

Thread: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kutno, Poland
    Posts
    657

    Default The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Few days ago some crucial facts came to the day light. A Russian historian, Nikita Pietrov, found the documents in Russian archives which confirm that 592 polish citizens were captured and held by NKVD in July 1945 in result of Augustow Roundup. Their fate remains unknown and their bodies were never found.
    Below you can find an article copied from http://www.doomedsoldiers.com/augustow-roundup.html
    I'm personally interested in this story because some of the facts seem to concur with ma grandfather's experiences.


    Unsolved Communist Crimes: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945 (Pol. "Oblawa Augustowska w lipcu 1945.")

    The Augustow roundup was one of the most bloody mass murders committed by the Soviets on Polish citizens, after the end of the II World War. Despite that fact however, neither school books, nor encyclopedias, even mention this tragic episode in the post-World-War II history of Poland. The whereabouts of those who perished during this roundup are unknown, as is unknown their place of burial.

    In July, 1945 the Red Army units supported by the communist UB (Urzad Bezpieczenstwa – The State Security), and MO (pol. Milicja Obywatelska – The People’s Milicia) conducted a grand-scale pacification in the Puszcza Augustowska [eng. Augustow Primeval Forest], and in the surrounding area. The Soviet forces combed through the forests and villages, arresting all those suspected of collaboration with the Polish Underground. During the course of the roundup, nearly 2,000 individuals were detained. Some of those returned home after being interrogated and tortured, while 600 were sent to an unknown location, never to be heard from again. This is their story.

    At the outset of the II World War, the Suwalki and Augustow counties fell under control of two occupiers: the Soviets, who established hegemony over the entire county of Suwalki, along with a portion of the Augustow county, and the Nazis, who reigned over a greater portion of the Augustow county. Right from the outset of this dual occupation, the Polish population residing in this area, began to form underground organizations to resist the occupiers.

    Many armed underground organizations, such as Temporary Council of Suwalki Region (pol. Tymczasowa Rada Ziemi Suwalskiej), the Pilsudski’s Legion (pol. Legion Pilsudskiego), the Near-Niemen Legion (pol. Legion Nadniemenski), and National Revival (pol. Odrodzenie Narodowe) sprang into action, and ultimately united under the banner of ZWS, the Association of Armed Struggle (pol. Zwiazek Walki Zbrojnej). The underground soldiers didn’t let the occupiers rest.

    “During the time I was stationed in Augustow, we lost around 50 of our people […] the Poles were making it [the occupation] really difficult for us. It was real war.” – writes in his memoirs secretary of the Regional Committee of Belarus, which at that time (commonly known as the First Soviet Occupation), occupied this area.

    After the Soviet-German war began, the infrastructure of the patriotic underground became unified under the standard of the Home Army, and was known in this area, as the Polish Insurrection Union (pol. Polski Zwiazek Powstanczy). In the beginning of Spring, 1944, the Home Army had nearly 5 thousand sworn members.

    During the operation “Tempest” (pol. “Burza”), in Spring, 1944, the Home Army units had to, in large part, reveal their identities, a fact which after the Germans are ejected from the North-Eastern part of Poland, and are replaced by the Soviets, will have tragic consequences. The Home Army soldiers were arrested, and either sent to the East, or forcibly conscripted into the communist Polish People’s Army (pol. Ludowe Wojsko Polskie). These repressions considerably undermined the strength of the underground infrastructure. Only in Spring, 1945, the soldiers who hid in the forests, began to reorganize themselves into new units, and to engage the new communist regime. As a result of these activities, in the Suwalki county, the democratic underground units destroyed seventeen, out of eighteen MO (pol. People’s Militia) stations, and from among fourteen rural municipalities (pol. Gmina) created by the communists, only two functioned. Furthermore, twenty three death sentences against the communist collaborators, and dedicated “helpers” of the new “people’s government” were carried out. Equally active were units conducting activities in the Augustow county. The success of the Home Army aggravated the Polish communists, and their Soviet masters, particularly, since the Soviet Red Army, and the NKWD, who took active part against the underground units, and the population at large, became more frequent targets of the democratic underground. After the capture of Berlin and the end of the World War II, a much larger number of personnel from the UB, NKVD, and the Red Army was dispatched to conduct activities against the democratic underground. These activities were conducted mainly by the Soviets, and at the “request” of the provincial, and county “governments”.

    "The Roundup of Death"
    The largest “cleanup” operation against the democratic armed underground, was conducted in July, 1945, and thus, became known as either the “July Roundup”, or as the “Augustow” Roundup, as it took place in and around Augustow area. The operation was conducted mainly by the Soviet forces, including the NKWD, Smersh (Soviet acronym: "SMERt' SHpionam" - engl. Death To the Spies) and the soldiers of the 3rd Belarusian Front. The functionaries of the UB, MO, and local informers played the role of the betrayer Judas, pointing out individuals who should be arrested, serving as guides, and as interpreters, during horrific interrogations that ensued. The communist forces which took part in the roundup, amounted to nearly fifteen thousand men. The methods, and circumstances, under which arrests took place varied. The Home Army soldiers, and individuals sympathetic to them who lived in the cities, were arrested either during evenings, or at night. The inhabitants of the villages on the other hand, were dragged out of their homes, snatched from country roads, or fields.

    In the village of Jaziewo, for example, all villagers were called for a meeting, and all those who showed up were arrested. Many Home Army soldiers were arrested during firefights and skirmishes that took place during the roundup. Witold Zurawski, a Home Army Soldier from Jastrzebna, near Sztabin, reminisces :

    “They encircled the entire village, and there were thousands of them – the Soviet henchmen marched, as if they were attacking in a line formation. They ordered us to exit our homes, so they could check our identity papers. After that they took all of us, men and some women, and they raced us to the barn, where we were held for two weeks. I had a feeling, that I am not going to make it, and when one day they took us out, I jumped into the crop field, and I was gone. The other villagers told me later, that after two weeks, the UB men wearing plain clothes arrived. They brought with them lists [with names] of people who were to be arrested. Those arrested were transported to Sztabin, and from there, they were taken to some unknown place. They vanished into thin air, [never to be seen again].”

    Those detained were jailed in various places, and often subjected to horrible tortures. From among 1,900 to 2,000 arrested, around 600 people were selected from the list, which was prepared earlier by the communist collaborators. Among those selected, were women, and 15, or 16-years old boys. According to the information obtained from the witnesses, these individuals were placed on trucks and transported towards the Soviet boarder. From that moment on, their whereabouts are unknown. Today, one thing is certain – they were murdered on orders issued by the Soviets, and their remains are located somewhere on the territory of the former USSR. The search for the missing was undertaken by their families immediately after the roundup, but the trail ended at the selection camps, where they were held for a short time. [...]

    to be continued in the next post...

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kutno, Poland
    Posts
    657

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    The villagers from the rural municipality called Giby, were first to ask about the fate of the missing, as during 1945, 109 individuals were taken away, and among those, 90 were detained during the roundup. In November, 1945, the Giby municipality sent a delegation to Warsaw in order to locate their missing neighbors, friends, and family members. Not surprisingly , they were not given any information. During the Stalinist times, any and all information about the roundup was a taboo, and bringing this subject up, could end tragically for those who dared to ask. During the following years, the subject of the “July Roundup”, was mentioned only during the so called period of Khrushchev's Thaw, that trickled into Poland.

    Only in 1987, the matter of those missing received serious attention, when Stefan Myszczynski, who lost three brothers and his step-father during the roundup, discovered graves near the road connecting Rigol and Giby. Initially, it was suspected that they contained remains of those missing from July 1945. After their examination however, it was revealed that they contained remains of German soldiers who died during the war. Impulsively, the public opinion, began to be more interested in the fate of the victims of the July Roundup, and on August 2, 1987, Obywatelski Komitet Poszukiwan Mieszkancow Suwalszczyzny Zaginionych w Lipcu 1945 [eng. The Citizen’s Committee To Locate Missing Inhabitants of the Suwalki Area Who Perished in July 1945”], was formed.

    Even though, the local government forbid the Committee to conduct its activity, they refused. Its founding members, Piotr Bajer, Miroslaw Basiewicz, Stanislaw Kowalczyk (from Suwalki), along with Alicja Maciejewska, Maria Chwalibog, and Jan Krzywosz (from Warsaw), with dedication gathered information about those perished. In 1992, all information they were able to obtain was delivered to the Public Attorney’s Office in Suwalki. However, the Public Attorney’s Office dismissed the case because of lack of the evidence, and its inability to probe through the classified post-soviet-era archives.

    In 2001, case files reached the Institute of National Remembrance (pol. abbr. IPN). The investigation into the Augustow murders is presently conducted by the Institute of National Remembrance — Commission for the Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation. Despite the fact that some progress was made, however, neither the fate of those presumed dead, nor the identities of the perpetrators, or the location of graves, have been discovered. The resources available to the IPN prosecutor to solve this case within Poland itself, have been exhausted.

    Number of requests sent to the present government of Russia, to help the investigators by providing information about operations of their units during the "July Roundup", remain unanswered! Today, many families in Giby, and other communities affected by the murderous net of the 1945 roundup, still await the truth about the fate of their husbands, sisters, and brothers … For those perished still lament with Hiob, “Oh earth, don’t conceal our blood, so our cries don’t cease ...”

    Written by: Adam Bialous

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Southern Russia , Krasnodar
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    Few days ago some crucial facts came to the day light. A Russian historian, Nikita Pietrov, found the documents in Russian archives which confirm that 592 polish citizens were captured and held by NKVD in July 1945 in result of Augustow Roundup. Their fate remains unknown and their bodies were never found.
    Well , actually there were captured 7049 during the anti-partisan roundup of july 1945.
    The Petrov found the report from Abakumov ( shief of MGB that time) to Beria.
    There is the text the telegram , supposed to be the real.
    В соответствии с Вашим указанием, мною утром 20 июля на самолете был направлен в г. Тройбург2 пом. нач. ГУКР СМЕРШ генерал-майор Горгонов с группой контрразведчиков для проведения ликвидации арестованных в Августовских лесах бандитов". По прибытии, - писал Абакумов, - Горгонов и начальник УКР СМЕРШ 3 Белорусского фронта генерал-лейтенант Зеленин донесли следующее: войсками 3 Белорусского фронта с 12 по 19 июля была проведена проческа этих лесов, задержаны 7049 чел. После проверки отпущено 5115 чел., из оставшихся 1934 задержанных выявлено и арестовано бандитов 844 чел., в том числе 252 литовца, которые имели связи с бандформированиями в Литве и поэтому переданы в местные органы НКВД-НКГБ Литвы. Проверяется 1090 чел., из которых 262 литовца по тем же причинам переданы в органы НКВД-НКГБ. Следовательно, арестованных на 21 июля с.г. числится всего лишь 592 чел., и задержанных, которые проверяются 828 чел. У арестованных бандитов в лесах в тайниках изъято 11 минометов, 31 пулемет, 123 автомата, винтовки, пистолеты и гранаты и 2 радиостанции.

    Далее Абукумов писал:
    "Если Вы найдете нужным проведение операции после такого положения, то ликвидацию бандитов намечаем провести следующим путем:

    1.1. Всех выявленных бандитов, в количестве 592 человека, ликвидировать. Для этой цели будет выделен оперативный состав и батальон войск Управления "СМЕРШ" 3-го Белорусского фронта, нами уже проверенный на деле при проведении ряда контрразведывательных мероприятий.
    Оперативные работники и личный состав батальона о порядке ликвидации бандитов будут тщательно проинструктированы.

    2.2. При проведении операции будут приняты необходимые меры к тому, чтобы предотвратить побег кого-либо из бандитов. В этих целях, кроме тщательного инструктажа оперативных работников и бойцов батальона, участки леса, где будет проводиться операция, будут оцеплены и предварительно проведена проческа местности.
    3.3. Ответственность за проведение ликвидации бандитов будет возложена на помощника начальника Главного Управления "СМЕРШ" генерал-майора Горгонова и начальника Управления Контрразведки 3-го Белорусского фронта генерал-лейтенанта Зеленина.
    Т.т. Горгонов и Зеленин хорошие и опытные чекисты и эту задачу выполнят.

    Остальные задержанные 828 человек будут проверены в 5-ти дневный срок, и все выявленные бандиты таким же путем будут ликвидированы. О количестве выявленных бандитов из этой группы задержанных Вам будет доложено.

    Прошу Ваших указаний. Абакумов 3.
    As he stated, within the action the 7049 man's were captured, 5115 have been liberated soon after short investigation .The rest 1934 were detained for supposed colloboration with "bandits" .The 844 were arrested as the members of anti-soviet rebels. From that figure the 252 rebels were found to be the member of Lutvinian anti-soviet grops. Those 252 were sent to Lutvinian GB for later investigation. Thus the only 592 polish rebels were arrested.Those fate is still unknown.
    down the telegram Abakumov offer to EBria to "liquidate" this groupe. From what Petrov makes the conclusion- they all have been executed by NKVD.
    As the reason of Soviet cont-partisan actions in Augustow forest Petrov wrote about systematic partisan attacks on red army troops or soviet authorities by former AK rebels in that area .In the telegram of Abakumov were mentioned the serious amount of werpon , cupruted during the roundup - 11 morters, 31 machinguns,123 submachinguns, many rifles, pistols ammos and grenades.And two radios.We still don't know how much peoples and members of pro-soviet polish administration died and suffered from the activity of AK rebels - those figures still covered. Or probably Petrov specially ignored the previous telegrams of NKVD were the incidents were reported. Anyway the harsh post war action of NKVD against local rebels were provoked by the ethnic and civil partisan war in many rural regions. The same but in larger scale were in baltic states and Western Ukraine.
    BTW, Petrov mentioned that in the Augusow roundup took active part the Communist Polish People's Milicia alongside the NKVD troops.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kutno, Poland
    Posts
    657

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Thanks Chevan for more detailed info.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Anyway the harsh post war action of NKVD against local rebels were provoked by the ethnic and civil partisan war in many rural regions. The same but in larger scale were in baltic states and Western Ukraine.
    I like that part - [...] the harsh post war action of NKVD against local rebels WERE PROVOKED [...]
    What or who provoked NKVD to be in Augustow area?

    And you're absolutely right, Communist Polish People's Militia members took active part in the roundup. That's why working in Militia was very dangerous job - plenty of those guys earned a bullet in the head - common reward for trison.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Southern Russia , Krasnodar
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Just don't think my friend , i am trying sort of justify the NKVD action or something else..
    But as i wrote the NKVD and Militia had actually prevented the MUCH MORE bloody Civil war with rebels. Just look at post war Ukraine - the UPA fought till the most 1953, murdered more then 20 000++ peoples both own Ukrainians and Russians ( army and NKVD troops). NKVD finally has fully destroyed the UPA but with much more casualties for all sides. Did UPA help to liberate Ukraine from Communism? No. But they commited manies acts of crimes toward its own population. So as i said, in many aspects the quick action in Augustow forest has prevented the possible Civil terror between Poles.592 killed is not much compared what may happend, though it sounds cynical.
    As for trison/traitors. Well you maybe know that in mid 1960-70 there were up to 3 mln of members of Polish comminust party. I don't think you may call all of them - traitors. Endeed and finally the COmmunist ideology as it has turned to be the false. But i can't say for all the members of COmparty( including my father) as traitors o colloborators. In fact many members of comunist party werea honest peoples who just thought and believed the communist is the great idea .

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kutno, Poland
    Posts
    657

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Just don't think my friend , i am trying sort of justify the NKVD action or something else..
    But as i wrote the NKVD and Militia had actually prevented the MUCH MORE bloody Civil war with rebels. Just look at post war Ukraine - the UPA fought till the most 1953, murdered more then 20 000++ peoples both own Ukrainians and Russians ( army and NKVD troops). NKVD finally has fully destroyed the UPA but with much more casualties for all sides. Did UPA help to liberate Ukraine from Communism? No. But they commited manies acts of crimes toward its own population. So as i said, in many aspects the quick action in Augustow forest has prevented the possible Civil terror between Poles.592 killed is not much compared what may happend, though it sounds cynical.
    As for trison/traitors. Well you maybe know that in mid 1960-70 there were up to 3 mln of members of Polish comminust party. I don't think you may call all of them - traitors. Endeed and finally the COmmunist ideology as it has turned to be the false. But i can't say for all the members of COmparty( including my father) as traitors o colloborators. In fact many members of comunist party werea honest peoples who just thought and believed the communist is the great idea .
    Dear Chevan,
    NKVD presence and activity in post-war Poland was equally justified as Polish activity in Russia during Смутное время (1598-1613). You know, Polish kings also wanted to prevent the civil war, they just wanted to help.

    Regarding the traitors...
    Of course it would be unfair in my opinion to call traitors all polish communist party members. Many of those people decided to join commies as they saw no other way to rebuilt the completely devastated country. They wanted organise their lives, raise the families, have babies, etc. Nobody can blame them for that.
    The traitors were those, who shot other Poles without a reason, those who abuse the power, those who tortured and murdered AK members and those "judges" who sentenced heroes for death. We can create few more categories, but these are the most important.

    My father was a member too. In his case it was natural way of life - to get a job after studies you had to join the party - without that there would be no flat, no job.
    From the other hand, my mother never joined the party, even though she was persuaded by the secret police few times.
    And finally, I never had anything against your old man

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Southern Russia , Krasnodar
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    Dear Chevan,
    NKVD presence and activity in post-war Poland was equally justified as Polish activity in Russia during Смутное время (1598-1613). You know, Polish kings also wanted to prevent the civil war, they just wanted to help.
    And i believe that..
    Finally i don't think everything our states did toward each other - had been caused by the evil motives. Pobably the Polish kings have had to asist one of side in civil conflict to stop the civil war. Why not? It's still better then to believe to Kremlin's version of events about "Polish invasion".
    Regarding the traitors...
    Of course it would be unfair in my opinion to call traitors all polish communist party members. Many of those people decided to join commies as they saw no other way to rebuilt the completely devastated country. They wanted organise their lives, raise the families, have babies, etc. Nobody can blame them for that.
    The traitors were those, who shot other Poles without a reason, those who abuse the power, those who tortured and murdered AK members and those "judges" who sentenced heroes for death. We can create few more categories, but these are the most important.
    Same was in USSR.
    Except may be the critical fact that you though can have a job and flat not necessary beeing the member of comparty.Neither my granddad nor my gramma was't the members but lives relatively well.One just cann't be the BOSS unless you are not a communist- this was a major rule.
    As for post war rebuilt of Poland - you have to admit that though the communist had applied an anourmose efforts to mobilize the society in deciding the problems. Althought it was distorting but still effective.
    My father was a member too. In his case it was natural way of life - to get a job after studies you had to join the party - without that there would be no flat, no job.
    From the other hand, my mother never joined the party, even though she was persuaded by the secret police few times.
    And finally, I never had anything against your old man
    Well my dad was a ..convictioned communist
    he seriously think that free education and medical service made the life much better.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kutno, Poland
    Posts
    657

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Finally i don't think everything our states did toward each other - had been caused by the evil motives.
    Well, the motivation was the result of our geopolitical situation. For hundreds of years the part of Europe between our countries was a place of contest. The balance of power had been changing over the years. Never ever in history none of the states considered the other side as an ally or friendly country. There was always something going on: wars, invasions, interference in internal political situation, etc.
    In 1945, after Soviet forces kicked out the Nazis from Poland, they did not go home. Their presence guaranteed the safety and stability of communist regime. From liberators they turned into occupants and nobody can deny it.
    NKVD was the same force which opressed polish citizens after 17/09/1939. NKVD commited Katyn Massacre, NKVD tortured and murdered thousands of Poles in thousands prisons and camps.
    So, I'm afraid my friend you are wrong when saying that Soviet (and obviously NKVD's) motives were friendly or friendly-like. They were openly hostile as occupant's motives always are.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Southern Russia , Krasnodar
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    So, I'm afraid my friend you are wrong when saying that Soviet (and obviously NKVD's) motives were friendly or friendly-like. They were openly hostile as occupant's motives always are.
    I understand you pain - your old enemy has come to you country and install the regime , you didn't like. Hard to argue it was occupation.
    But was it so unique and exclusive for post war Poland?If to look to the concrete event- the augostow roundup.NKVD did the job. It was not a job to exterminate the poles. but to keep the order.. Remember the polonisation of Ukraine and Belorussia - the mutual terror that cost up to 20 +++ of lives during 1919-1939. Would we like that fate for post war Poland?I hope no. So in many aspects the harsh actions were the "lesser evill".

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kutno, Poland
    Posts
    657

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    NKVD did the job. It was not a job to exterminate the poles. but to keep the order.
    "[...] As he stated, within the action the 7049 man's were captured, 5115 have been liberated soon after short investigation .The rest 1934 were detained for supposed colloboration with "bandits" .The 844 were arrested as the members of anti-soviet rebels. From that figure the 252 rebels were found to be the member of Lutvinian anti-soviet grops. Those 252 were sent to Lutvinian GB for later investigation. Thus the only 592 polish rebels were arrested.Those fate is still unknown.
    down the telegram Abakumov offer to EBria to "liquidate" this groupe. From what Petrov makes the conclusion- they all have been executed by NKVD.[...]

    That comes from your post above. It seems like a logic connection to me: Abakumov suggested "liquidation" - prisoners disappeared and never been found - clearly an extermination job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    So in many aspects the harsh actions were the "lesser evill".
    Actions like that are called "atrocities". You can't justify genocide by the threat of possible even greater genocide or civil war, etc.
    NKVD as a military force of Soviet Union comitted crimes on the citizens of another country. The Augustow Round-up was just a one of many NKVD actions in Poland.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,266

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    There is nothing in my comfortable experience of life which enables me to have any real understanding of the events Kovalski and Chevan are discussing, but as an outsider it seems to me that at a poltical or policy level a significant part of the problem comes from a lack of stability in the relevant geographical areas because they were carved up to suit the wants of larger powers at various times, without regard to any cultural or ethnic or linguistic or other unifying factors. Which is exactly what has led us to the current situation in the Middle East and Central Asia, where larger powers are still doing the same thing to ensure problems for the future.

    Is it possible for any group of people to put aside the crimes of the past if given the right to exist as their cultural or any other group within their own borders, or are we doomed to the crimes of the past being avenged for ever more with endless conflict?
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Kutno, Poland
    Posts
    657

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Is it possible for any group of people to put aside the crimes of the past if given the right to exist as their cultural or any other group within their own borders, or are we doomed to the crimes of the past being avenged for ever more with endless conflict?
    I believe it is possible, but I think few conditions got to be met. First, some time has to pass from the traumatic events before any dialogue can be started. Secondly, there has to be a will of agreement on both sides with true mutual respect shown. Then, both sides needs to admit their mistakes, crimes they comitted, etc. Finally, all generations need to pulled into the dialogue. Witnesses of the events and people who took active part in it are quite often too emotionally involved to handle alone the burden. In my honest opinion, the key factor is to let the young people from both sides meet. Without negative experiences they can start new relations.
    OMG, sounds like some political declaration

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Southern Russia , Krasnodar
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    That comes from your post above. It seems like a logic connection to me: Abakumov suggested "liquidation" - prisoners disappeared and never been found - clearly an extermination job.
    You'v forgot to mention the tons of firearms that were cuptured with those "prisoners". No one army or state will tolerate the illegal armed terroristic groups attaking their rear and civils. So formally it was a war - with killed from both sides.
    Actions like that are called "atrocities". You can't justify genocide by the threat of possible even greater genocide or civil war, etc.
    NKVD as a military force of Soviet Union comitted crimes on the citizens of another country. The Augustow Round-up was just a one of many NKVD actions in Poland.
    If you are looking for atrocities - just take a look at the photos of civil victims of UPA. The "citizents" of anothher country that attacks the legal autorities and police are called the terrorists. If they were the citizent - why the official polish authorities who definitelly know about action coz the Militia took part alongside NKVD did not protests? Becouse among victims of attacks of those "forest brothers" were definitelly the Polish citizens too. So as it has been stated - it was bloody partisan war. Keep in mind there were caught 250 baltic partisans who definitelly didn't burn by desire to save the polish lives during their attacks of polish "commies".
    If to put emotions aside - really you would like to wish the another tens thousand of polish victims within the sensless civil war?

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Southern Russia , Krasnodar
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Is it possible for any group of people to put aside the crimes of the past if given the right to exist as their cultural or any other group within their own borders, or are we doomed to the crimes of the past being avenged for ever more with endless conflict?
    We will not average for whatever been in past, mate.
    We just are in the long way to reach the balanced view on common historical events FREE from the ethnical, race and any sort of nationalistic prejudices.COz those evill prejudices migh will have played the evil role in future.For those purposes we shall carefully and objectively look at the things.And we are almost have succeed

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Southern Russia , Krasnodar
    Posts
    4,077

    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    OMG, sounds like some political declaration
    Kovalski in presidency

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •