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Thread: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

  1. #31
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Top secret report (russian) sent by gen. Victor Abakumov (head of USSR People's Commissariat of Defence Chief Counterintelligence Directorate "SMERSH") to Lavrenty Beria, regarding the Augustow Roundup.
    These files were recovered by polish IPN in April 2012.
    http://ipn.gov.pl/download/2/1347/Ob...owska_cz_1.pdf
    http://ipn.gov.pl/download/2/1349/Ob...owska_cz_2.pdf

  2. #32
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    Top secret report (russian) sent by gen. Victor Abakumov (head of USSR People's Commissariat of Defence Chief Counterintelligence Directorate "SMERSH") to Lavrenty Beria, regarding the Augustow Roundup.
    These files were recovered by polish IPN in April 2012.
    http://ipn.gov.pl/download/2/1347/Ob...owska_cz_1.pdf
    http://ipn.gov.pl/download/2/1349/Ob...owska_cz_2.pdf
    "Recovered by Pollsh IPN..." Spooky!

    These documents were requested by Russian historian Nikita Petrov in Nov 2011. Russian FSB declassified documents and sent him copies in Feb 2012.
    http://urokiistorii.ru/history/soc/3214
    Last edited by Egorka; 06-05-2012 at 07:46 AM.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    Recovered by IPN... Spooky!

    These documents were requested by Russian historian Nikita Petrov in Nov 2011. Russian FSB declassified documents and sent him copies in Feb 2012.
    http://urokiistorii.ru/history/soc/3214
    Check my 1st post.
    To get anything from russian (especially FSB) archives is like to recover, discover or unveil.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post

    Even the Western major countries seen the Rigas treaty violated the independece and right of several nations - Belorussians, Ukrainians and Luthinians. Not to mention that the treaty with Bolshevics butchers , who in 1921 stiil firght the Legal Russian govenment army and commited a lot of the mass crimes against civils - can't be recognized LEGAL for the nations.
    I do apologize for jumping into this thread very, very late, but I was discussing this very topic with a very dear friend, who is a historian and holds a teaching position in an American university. We also discussed the Augustow Roundup, which I remember very well, as I was arrested in August of 1945, a month later.

    Now, on to the 1921 Riga Treaty. The Treaty was validated because France, Great Britain, and the United States eventually accepted the treaty's territorial resolutions, which is not surprising, due to the fear that the resurgent Communist Red Army (the White Army, for the first time during the Russian civil war, experienced magnificent set-backs and misfortune) would pose a critical military and political threat to France and the Western countries from the east. The Riga Treaty, until Rapallo a year later, calmed France's fears and stabilized its eastern border, as well as Poland's, for the next 18 years. Also, eastern Europe settled down, albeit uneasily, in the Versailles treaty's assigned territories because, I imagine, Poland tentatively reached conciliation on all her borders, and the civil war in Russia was winding down, calming "Red fears" in the West.

    But, if you notice, Poland did not accept the Curzon line at Versailles or Riga for historical and political reasons. First, Dmowski argued for the restoration of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth borders, stretching from the tip of Danzig's border, encompassing all of Belarus and three-quarters of Ukraine, and some land in Russia. Second, Dmowski believed that since these countries still had ethnic Polish minorities, and these countries were linked to Polish history, they should return to the new Poland, despite the significant demographic changes in the area. The Curzon line would cut off Poland from her history, so the thinking went. I don't subscribe to Dmowski's chauvinist, nationalist vision because the line represents Polish minorities very well. In 1921, 250 km east of Bialystok represented shared land with the Lithuanian Duchy before she joined forces with Poland, not modern demographics or economics (much of this territory wasn't urbanized and contained farms, which utilized backward farming techniques that failed to yield sufficient revenue for crops, due to protectionist tariffs and the collapse of world food prices.) And, Pilsudski was born and raised in Vilna in a Polish noble family, making the argument against the Riga Treaty difficult to deride in Poland and the Polish army.



    Let me remind you , the Soviet govenment has been officially recognized by West since beginning 1930-yy.It was seen , however as the LEsser Evil - as mean to stop the war at that moment.
    I do not understand, Chevan, forgive me (If we were speaking Polish, I would immediately understand, as the cases make reading comprehension easier; English has too many pronoun-antecedent agreement rules, and the meaning gets lost in the shuffle). Who was the lesser evil, Soviet government, the Polish government, or the White Army under Denikin?

    So it was illegal but better then nothing.
    I do not understand, Chevan. In 1923, the International Community (League of Nations) recognized the treaty, so therefore, the treaty was a legal document between Poland and the Soviet Union. Your last two quotes acknowledge this statement.

    However , we both know , how the UPA seen this situation and how later civil poles have paid for such an "treaty",right?
    The world paid dearly for Poland's borders, as Germany contested the authenticity of Danzig and much of Poland's western borders. The eastern border question was not settled until the USSR's invasion in 1939, when that country imposed its authority by force. Also, Poland's lost eastern border, which the allies never recognized until Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union, ending the brief, but fragile, "alliance" between those two powers, caused much anxiety and mutual suspicion between Poland and the Soviet Union, a suspicion that lasts to this very day.
    Last edited by Kregs; 07-12-2013 at 04:10 PM.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    When the Soviets were about to arrive, AK units (which were in fact a union of many different units and organizations) and polish goverment structures revealed their existence.
    Yes, Kovalski. AK units had an amalgamation of loyalties and ideologies. This motley assortment of sorts became more and more evident to the underground very soon after Germany's long retreat from Stalingrad. Before then, we understood that the common purpose was to strengthen Polish morale under German rule, establish some sort of rapport with Polish intellectuals, and weaken Germany's hold on the populace. But the ideological assortment became a weakness. For instance, some AK soldiers were strong Nationalists with little regard for non-Poles, some sympathized with the Soviet Union, others with the allies, etc. One frightening aspect of this shifting ground was that you never knew who would turn against you because of loyalty and ideological issues. Another frightening, but sad, aspect was that many in the underground wanted Polish stability and believed that cooperation with the new government would stop the bleeding between the divergent factions in the underground. Others, who despised the Soviets, refused to disarm and ran for their lives (I am of this number, unfortunately). The basic belief was that the Soviets would never allow freedom to flourish and never leave Polish soil without exacting painful vengeance. We who ran knew this all to well.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    You think that somebody asked the Americans stayed in post-war Europe or Asia?Did the survived poor inhabitants of Silesia and Pomerania asked the post-war Poland - come to us and take our lands, join us to Poland? Did Ukrainaisn asked Pilsudsky - " stay in Ukraine as much as you wish".No?
    Sorry if it was too much sarcastic.
    Actually, Chevan, I believe we were asked to stay. To protect us and Europe from you. Who asked the Russians to stay where they were?
    Last edited by royal744; 08-19-2013 at 12:16 PM.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by royal744 View Post
    Actually, Chevan, I believe we were asked to stay. To protect us and Europe from you.
    You will laught, royal, but we in USSR sincerely believed the same To protect the mankind from agressive american imperialism Sounds familiar?
    Who asked the Russians to stay where they were?
    They have asked themself Becouse when you invide some country - you then install the puppet gowenment, which immediatelly "asked you to stay and defend us" Just like it was in Saigon or Baghdad. You should better know how it..

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  8. #38
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kregs View Post
    I do apologize for jumping into this thread very, very late, but I was discussing this very topic with a very dear friend, who is a historian and holds a teaching position in an American university. We also discussed the Augustow Roundup, which I remember very well, as I was arrested in August of 1945, a month later.
    Hello Kregs. Sorry for late answer- just re-read this interesting thread. But how old are you?
    Now, on to the 1921 Riga Treaty. The Treaty was validated because France, Great Britain, and the United States eventually accepted the treaty's territorial resolutions, which is not surprising, due to the fear that the resurgent Communist Red Army (the White Army, for the first time during the Russian civil war, experienced magnificent set-backs and misfortune) would pose a critical military and political threat to France and the Western countries from the east.
    Yes the political and military troubles of the France and Britain over the eastern threat were explicable. The were ready to recognise the rigas treaty even if Poland wanted too much territories behind curson line - it was still better if it helped to stop a war. Soviets and Poles have separated Ukraine for its mutual profit. But this treaty roughly violated the interests of MAJOR populated side - the Ukraine Peoples Repablic whose leader Petlura has been ignored. Thus de-facto the treaty was an "act of annection of ukrainian territory". That later comes to bloody civil conflict there.
    But, if you notice, Poland did not accept the Curzon line at Versailles or Riga for historical and political reasons. First, Dmowski argued for the restoration of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth borders, stretching from the tip of Danzig's border, encompassing all of Belarus and three-quarters of Ukraine, and some land in Russia. Second, Dmowski believed that since these countries still had ethnic Polish minorities, and these countries were linked to Polish history, they should return to the new Poland, despite the significant demographic changes in the area. The Curzon line would cut off Poland from her history, so the thinking went. I don't subscribe to Dmowski's chauvinist, nationalist vision because the line represents Polish minorities very well. In 1921, 250 km east of Bialystok represented shared land with the Lithuanian Duchy before she joined forces with Poland, not modern demographics or economics (much of this territory wasn't urbanized and contained farms, which utilized backward farming techniques that failed to yield sufficient revenue for crops, due to protectionist tariffs and the collapse of world food prices.) And, Pilsudski was born and raised in Vilna in a Polish noble family, making the argument against the Riga Treaty difficult to deride in Poland and the Polish army.
    It's called imperialism Pilsudsky dreamed about new Great Poland- we know it both. The problem of poles , IMO, is when they blame the russian and german imperialism - they are absolutly blind to its own imperialism.
    I do not understand, Chevan, forgive me (If we were speaking Polish, I would immediately understand, as the cases make reading comprehension easier; English has too many pronoun-antecedent agreement rules, and the meaning gets lost in the shuffle). Who was the lesser evil, Soviet government, the Polish government, or the White Army under Denikin?
    I meant the unfair Rigas treaty with illegal bolsheviks was a lesser evil for the Great Powers but not for the peoples , populated the disputed territories.
    I do not understand, Chevan. In 1923, the International Community (League of Nations) recognized the treaty, so therefore, the treaty was a legal document between Poland and the Soviet Union. Your last two quotes acknowledge this statement.
    What a legal document could be with signed Soviet union in 1921 if USSR hasn't been internationally legalised untill the 1924? The bolshevics were still fighting the civil war for power with legal White govenment forces there. The bolshevics were in fact just another terrorist , fighting the legal govenment. It's just like to separate the Iraq and signed the treaty wit ISIS - on the basis that they also is winning the legal iraqi govenment Hey, it may help to stop a war on the Middle East to the great powers common profit

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  9. #39
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    You will laught, royal, but we in USSR sincerely believed the same To protect the mankind from agressive american imperialism Sounds familiar?

    They have asked themself Because when you invide some country - you then install the puppet gowenment, which immediatelly "asked you to stay and defend us" Just like it was in Saigon or Baghdad. You should better know how it..
    Chevan, do me a favour and give me an example of US Army operations in 1945 against the local population of France, Belgium, Netherlands or even Germany. Remind me of the organized action which aim was to suppress the civilians, arrest the men, women and children, brutally interrogate them and later put onto the truck and drive in the unknown direction. Tell me about hundreds of French who vanished without a trace after US Army entered their villages.

    And then, please tell me which Western European country liberated by the US had its personnel installed in every military unit, in every internal security office, in every single ministry?

    I'm intentionally not mentioning Iraq, Vietnam nor Nicaragua. We all know what happened there and was the reason for the US presence there.

    But in 1945, there was a big difference between US and USSR.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Oh , mate Kovalski has finally returned back. I missed you
    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    Chevan, do me a favour and give me an example of US Army operations in 1945 against the local population of France, Belgium, Netherlands or even Germany.
    ..just against the local civils? OK. The Dresden ( 12 febriary) the Tokio ( march 1945) the Hiroshima( august) - all those auctions have been planned and organised specially against civils. I may continie, but hardly you would like that way of dialog
    Remind me of the organized action which aim was to suppress the civilians, arrest the men, women and children, brutally interrogate them and later put onto the truck and drive in the unknown direction.
    Today is everything for you , mate. My lovely busyness to help the people to educate.
    250–300 were killed, mostly women and children
    The American colonel, troubled by what he was hearing, tried to stall at first. But the declassified record shows he finally told his South Korean counterpart it "would be permitted" to machine-gun 3,500 political prisoners, to keep them from joining approaching enemy forces.
    That's just what come to mind instantly, but i can dig up a tonns more.
    Tell me about hundreds of French who vanished without a trace after US Army entered their villages.
    Surprise! I have one Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated
    Did you know the Vietnam was a French colony?
    And then, please tell me which Western European country liberated by the US had its personnel installed in every military unit, in every internal security office, in every single ministry?
    Post-war occuped Germany
    I'm intentionally not mentioning Iraq, Vietnam nor Nicaragua. We all know what happened there and was the reason for the US presence there.
    I know why you ignore the Iraqi bloody bath? ( up to 1 million of civils dead) becouse the Poland has participated in that dirty compain. Im i right? But of cource , we both know it was becouse of communists!!! They provided saddam wth MDW and US just saved the entire world and , personally Poland, from the atomic armageddon - that is the reason which we both imply?
    But in 1945, there was a big difference between US and USSR.
    Hard to agrue, i have to add the Stalin was an maniacal idiot. I've just noticed all the countries the americans bombed into stone age like Germany and Japane now loves the USA and best american friends today. How do you think if the Soviets instead fo liberation ( or before libaration) just nuked or firebombed with "white phosporic" the Warsaw - could we hope for better friendship today?
    Last edited by Chevan; 07-06-2016 at 02:57 PM.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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