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Thread: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

  1. #16
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    If to put emotions aside - really you would like to wish the another tens thousand of polish victims within the sensless civil war?
    If Soviet Union did not impose communist regime in Poland in 1944, there would be no threat of civil war, no need to hide the weapons and ammo.
    The polish military units and what is more important the political structures of Polish Goverment-in-Exile (which was the only legal continuation of polish state) were present all along on polish territory.
    When the Soviets were about to arrive, AK units (which were in fact a union of many different units and organizations) and polish goverment structures revealed their existence.
    But unfortunately, Soviets were not interested in cooperation with them (with a legal authorities of another state), and started a campaign of mass arrests. NKVD again!
    So, the only rational reaction of AK members and other people involved in ressistance was to go back to underground.
    In fact, it was the Soviets who caused problems including a threat of civil war.
    If they stayed aside, if they were not involved, if they didn't want to impose a regime - none of those post war tragedies would ever happened.
    I know Chevan it might not be a nice thing to read that, but I'm being honest with you.
    Nobody asked Soviets to stay in Poland after the war. They stayed because they wanted to keep their commie gang in power. That was just a part of Stalin's plan for Europe.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    We will not average for whatever been in past, mate.
    We just are in the long way to reach the balanced view on common historical events FREE from the ethnical, race and any sort of nationalistic prejudices.COz those evill prejudices migh will have played the evil role in future.For those purposes we shall carefully and objectively look at the things.And we are almost have succeed
    I think that thanks to this forum, at least few of us came a long way and as Chevan says we almost succeeded.
    Todays discussions are completely different from the ones we had in the past.It used to be very emotional and brutal. Now, there's a mutual respect, a will of understanding, friendship and of course sense of humour.
    There are sites on the internet, where the discussion like the one above wouldn't be possible. But here, it works fine.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    If you are looking for atrocities - just take a look at the photos of civil victims of UPA.
    Personally I find this topic very difficult to explore.
    Even polish historians are arguing what happened between Poles and Ukrainians during the World War 2. What was the scale of atrocities, number of victims, who was in fact involved, who started first - all of this is still discussed. Recently, I read that some historians blame Ukrainians for all evil and UPA was a terrorist organization, some are pointing out that UPA also fought for freedom. There are people on both sides of the border who try start a dialogue, but again there's a lot of people who don't even want to hear about it.
    I think that for Ukrainians themselves, it is a very difficult part of history to understand.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    If Soviet Union did not impose communist regime in Poland in 1944, there would be no threat of civil war, no need to hide the weapons and ammo.
    True. But it wasn't somtheing exclisive.
    the Poland itself has imposed the anti-national regimes on occuped 1919-1939 West Ukraine and Belorussia, far from democratic rules.
    For instance the Ukainian language was banned. Ukrainian shools has been closed.The repressions against national movenment were very harsh.
    Why shall we remember just about occuped Poland case?
    The polish military units and what is more important the political structures of Polish Goverment-in-Exile (which was the only legal continuation of polish state) were present all along on polish territory.
    When the Soviets were about to arrive, AK units (which were in fact a union of many different units and organizations) and polish goverment structures revealed their existence.
    But unfortunately, Soviets were not interested in cooperation with them (with a legal authorities of another state), and started a campaign of mass arrests. NKVD again!
    So, the only rational reaction of AK members and other people involved in ressistance was to go back to underground.
    In fact, it was the Soviets who caused problems including a threat of civil war.
    Why should the civil conflict in Poland be needed for Soviets? To make their Polish communist allies unstable?You probably knew how effective the
    Polish communist govenment has ended the ukro-polish ethnic hostilities. "Operation Vistula" - harsh but effective.
    If they stayed aside, if they were not involved, if they didn't want to impose a regime - none of those post war tragedies would ever happened.
    I don't think so. remember the Volun? When germans "stayed aside" - how much casualties it bring to polish settlers?
    The ethnic conflict better to stop then to "watch" aside.
    I know Chevan it might not be a nice thing to read that, but I'm being honest with you.
    i'm OK , my friend. I know we were the enemies almost all the history. Commies hided that fact. But due to Commies our countries stayed friendly at least 50 years- much enough.The bad peace is still better the good war.
    Nobody asked Soviets to stay in Poland after the war. They stayed because they wanted to keep their commie gang in power. That was just a part of Stalin's plan for Europe.
    This happens constantly.
    You think that somebody asked the Americans stayed in post-war Europe or Asia?Did the survived poor inhabitants of Silesia and Pomerania asked the post-war Poland - come to us and take our lands, join us to Poland? Did Ukrainaisn asked Pilsudsky - " stay in Ukraine as much as you wish".No?
    Sorry if it was too much sarcastic.
    Last edited by Chevan; 07-08-2011 at 08:33 AM.

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  5. #20
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    True. But it wasn't somtheing exclisive.
    the Poland itself has imposed the anti-national regimes on occuped 1919-1939 West Ukraine and Belorussia, far from democratic rules.
    For instance the Ukainian language was banned. Ukrainian shools has been closed.The repressions against national movenment were very harsh.
    Why shall we remember just about occuped Poland case?
    I've never denied polish opressions against the local populations in Eastern Poland before World War 2.
    And I've never opposed starting a thread about that. Feel free to do it Chevan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Why should the civil conflict in Poland be needed for Soviets? To make their Polish communist allies unstable?You probably knew how effective the Polish communist govenment has ended the ukro-polish ethnic hostilities. "Operation Vistula" - harsh but effective.
    I don't think so. remember the Volun? When germans "stayed aside" - how much casualties it bring to polish settlers?
    The ethnic conflict better to stop then to "watch" aside.
    So tell me mate, why the Soviets stayed in Eastern Europe? Why didn't they go back home to their beloved fatherland?
    Because communist parties from every country asked them to stay? And so they stayed because Soviets were so nice and gently people who just couldn't say "no"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    i'm OK , my friend. I know we were the enemies almost all the history. Commies hided that fact. But due to Commies our countries stayed friendly at least 50 years- much enough.The bad peace is still better the good war.
    Imagine a bear giving a strong hug to a bunny and saying that they are friends forever - this is how this friendship looked like.
    And don't forget that during that peace Soviet "friends" carried out arrests of my countrymen, and in October 1956 Soviet tank columns marched towards Warsaw - a really firendly act.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    This happens constantly.
    You think that somebody asked the Americans stayed in post-war Europe or Asia?Did the survived poor inhabitants of Silesia and Pomerania asked the post-war Poland - come to us and take our lands, join us to Poland? Did Ukrainaisn asked Pilsudsky - " stay in Ukraine as much as you wish".No?
    Sorry if it was too much sarcastic.
    Well, correct me if I'm wrong but:
    1) Americans never murdered 20000 French, British, Belgian, Dutch, Italian nor even German officers once they showed up in Europe,
    2) Americans didn't send NKVD nor Smersh to hunt down French, British, Belgian nor Dutch citizens,
    3) Americans payed for Marschall Plan,
    4) Americans never disassambled a single factory and moved it to US,
    etc, etc.

    The decision regarding the change of borders was not made by Polish.
    It was made during Yalta Conference by Infamous Trio: Stalin, Rosevelt and Churchill. Poles like their borders as they were before the war.

    And no, Pilsudski didn't asked Ukrainians. The division of Ukraine was decided at Riga Treaty in 1921 between Poland and Soviet Russia. Did tavarishch Lenin asked Ukrainians for permission to stay?
    I don't think so.
    Last edited by Kovalski; 07-08-2011 at 09:10 AM. Reason: correction

  6. #21
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    I've never denied polish opressions against the local populations in Eastern Poland before World War 2.
    And I've never opposed starting a thread about that. Feel free to do it Chevan.
    Why shall i do this?
    I will not, coz such a theme will rise up the mutual nationalistic troubles and reproaches .I actually don't think it's really needed for between brother slavic nations.You have a right to care about your independence, but how about the independence of your neighbourd who lived next door?
    So tell me mate, why the Soviets stayed in Eastern Europe? Why didn't they go back home to their beloved fatherland?
    Because communist parties from every country asked them to stay? And so they stayed because Soviets were so nice and gently people who just couldn't say "no"?
    Really you don't know why soviets stayed there, mate?
    Becouse they had splitted out the zones of influence. The CHurch, Rosewelt and Stalin. You know it. Just like the Poland and Germany had splitted the Chehoclovakia in 1938...just like the Pilsudsky and bolshevic criminal Lenin had splitted the Ukraine in 1921. Why Poles has not leaved the Ukraine - from you way of thinking i have to admit- coz they were so "nice and gently" for locals? No?
    You , my friend have to agreed that Poland used the any possibility to capture and grab any neighbourd territory over all its history.And no one ever interested want the locals to be the "citizents" of Poland or no.And never Poland leaved those territories.
    So why on your mind USSR should leave the Eastern Europe?
    Imagine a bear giving a strong hug to a bunny and saying that they are friends forever - this is how this friendship looked like.
    And don't forget that during that peace Soviet "friends" carried out arrests of my countrymen, and in October 1956 Soviet tank columns marched towards Warsaw - a really firendly act.
    And now imagine the Prague, 1968. The "bear and bunny" alongside invide the CHehoslovakia. And Polish tanks with soviets marched toward Chech capital. What a idilia. Looks like a really frendly act, is in it?
    Well, correct me if I'm wrong but:
    1) Americans never murdered 20000 French, British, Belgian, Dutch, Italian nor even German officers once they showed up in Europe,
    Hell yes..
    The Americans killed pretty much Brits during war for Independence. Also killed a lot of enemies which ever invided the USA like Mexicans , Spanish or Canadians. And of cource they killed a thousands of enemy officer of armies which USA itself had invidedIncluding some captured German officers.
    So our American partners had killed a tonns of enemy officers, whose poor armies had a honour to attack the USA and kills the americans
    We both know a lot of stories how the USA might to invide and wiped out the entire countries in "revenge".But this is entire the other story.
    2) Americans didn't send NKVD nor Smersh to hunt down French, British, Belgian nor Dutch citizens,
    3) Americans payed for Marschall Plan,
    4) Americans never disassambled a single factory and moved it to US,
    etc, etc.
    and 5). the Americans NEVER joined the European territories (with factories and plants) to USA. Unlike the Poland..
    The decision regarding the change of borders was not made by Polish.
    It was made during Yalta Conference by Infamous Trio: Stalin, Rosevelt and Churchill. Poles like their borders as they were before the war.
    But Ukrainians did not like those pre-war borders, mate..
    therefor the unfamous trio has finaly decided and ended that terrible ethnic conflict. And you should be gratefull for that 0- they saved a lives of thousands of poles.
    And no, Pilsudski didn't asked Ukrainians. The division of Ukraine was decided at Riga Treaty in 1921 between Poland and Soviet Russia. Did tavarishch Lenin asked Ukrainians for permission to stay?
    I don't think so.
    But why then Stalin should ask the poles to stay after ww2?
    Now you tell the true.
    The Pilsudsky has deel with illegal bolshevic govenment ( the official White govenment stell existed and fought in 1921) and separated the neighbourd country that should be independent. From all sides the Riga threaty was illegal. Therefore the "Eastern Polald" was never legitime.Neither for Russia nor for Ukraine.

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  7. #22
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Now you tell the true.
    The Pilsudsky has deel with illegal bolshevic govenment ( the official White govenment stell existed and fought in 1921) and separated the neighbourd country that should be independent. From all sides the Riga threaty was illegal. Therefore the "Eastern Polald" was never legitime.Neither for Russia nor for Ukraine.
    I'll support myself with a post by our colleague, Kregs:
    "[...] after the 1921 war, Poland's borders became internationally recognized despite Ukrainian resistance. So, therefore, any attempts to alter by force the borders established at Riga and recognized by the Entente, violates international law."

    And as a reminder, it was a treaty between Poland and Soviet Russia.

    So Chevan, you need to decide whether the treaty was legal or not.
    In this thread you say it was illegal, but in another thread you don't oppose when it is said it was legal.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    I'll support myself with a post by our colleague, Kregs:
    "[...] after the 1921 war, Poland's borders became internationally recognized despite Ukrainian resistance. So, therefore, any attempts to alter by force the borders established at Riga and recognized by the Entente, violates international law."
    Mate , from which time you begin to post by reposting the other members?
    Glad , you've back though..
    We missed you here.
    And as a reminder, it was a treaty between Poland and Soviet Russia.

    So Chevan, you need to decide whether the treaty was legal or not.
    In this thread you say it was illegal, but in another thread you don't oppose when it is said it was legal.
    my firend, if i get the pause in MY discussion with the OTHER member - why should you worry about? You know my point, but i repeat this ONCE againt.With quote..
    Wiki sais

    The Allied Powers were reluctant to recognize the treaty, which had been concluded without their participation.Their postwar conferences supported the Curzon Line as the Polish-Russian border, and Poland's territorial gains in the treaty lay about 250 kilometers east of that line.French support led to its recognition in March 1923 by France, Great Britain, Italy, and Japan, followed by the US in April.

    Belarussian and Ukrainian independence movements saw the treaty as a setback.Four million Ukrainians and over one million Belarussians lived within areas ceded to Poland; in one estimate, only 15% of the population was ethnically Polish.The Ukrainian People's Republic led by Symon Petliura had been allied with Poland by Treaty of Warsaw, but the Treaty of Riga abrogated it.The new treaty violated Poland's military alliance with the UPR, which had explicitly prohibited a separate peace. In doing so, it worsened relations between Poland and those Ukrainians who had supported Petliura. These supporters felt Ukraine had been betrayed by its Polish ally, a feeling that would be exploited by Ukrainian nationalists and contribute to the growing tensions and eventual violence in the 1930s and 1940s.
    Even the Western major countries seen the Rigas treaty violated the independece and right of several nations - Belorussians, Ukrainians and Luthinians. Not to mention that the treaty with Bolshevics butchers , who in 1921 stiil firght the Legal Russian govenment army and commited a lot of the mass crimes against civils - can't be recognized LEGAL for the nations. Let me remind you , the Soviet govenment has been officially recognized by West since beginning 1930-yy.It was seen , however as the LEsser Evil - as mean to stop the war at that moment. So it was illegal but better then nothing.
    However , we both know , how the UPA seen this situation and how later civil poles have paid for such an "treaty",right?

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  9. #24
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    [QUOTE=Chevan;180440] Let me remind you , the Soviet govenment has been officially recognized by West since beginning 1930-yy[QUOTE]

    Well, I kindly suggest a quick check of historic facts.
    As far as I know, the USSR was recognized by the British Empire in February 1924, by France in October 1924 and US in 1933. So, you're a little bit wrong. Just a little bit

    Anyway, in my opinion there's not much to discuss about this treaty. It was legal and recognised by the states signing it: Poland and Russia. It is obvious that the way Ukrainians and Belorussians were treated was shameful and in their eyes this treaty was a trison (especially by Polish side - I bet Ukrainians and Belorussians never expected anything good from Russians). But as far Poland and Russia were concerned, the treaty was legal and welcomed by both states. Poland was tired with war, needed time to recover and focus on internal problems. Soviet Russia was on its knees still involved in a war against Wrangl's Army. Both sides were not interested in continuation of a conflict which would bring only more victims without clear and decisive victory in near future.
    In my opinion the outcome of this treaty was a failure for Poland, because there were three different ideas represented by the members of polish delegation (instead of presenting one clear vision, they preferred to argue within the delegation - so typical for Poles ). In the begining, there was an idea of federation of states (Poland, Belarussia, Ukraine and Lithuania) but it was given up and the idea of division of the land was forced by nationalist members of delegation.
    Anyway, the treaty was signed and recognised later by the other countries, that means it was legal.

    There always will be someone unhappy and felling betrayed, so I'm not surprised you give examples.

  10. #25
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    Cool Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    Well, I kindly suggest a quick check of historic facts.
    As far as I know, the USSR was recognized by the British Empire in February 1924, by France in October 1924 and US in 1933. So, you're a little bit wrong. Just a little bit
    Brilliant Kovalski
    Yes, i was a bit wrong , mind the USA. Yes the Britain was the first to recognize the USSR 2 feb 1924. That is still MUCH later the supposed "Legal" Riga treaty with USSR were admitted by League of nations.
    So as you see even from pure juridical points - the so called "soviet govenment" ( i.e. the gang of bloody criminals self-declared leaders of Russia) has no any legal right to sign an any international treaty. It might be easly dismissed or proved as false by any international court if such a aim will be wished.
    The fact that the Poland to own imperialistic profit self-declared the gang of criminals- doesn't cost a much.
    Anyway, in my opinion there's not much to discuss about this treaty. It was legal and recognised by the states signing it: Poland and Russia. It is obvious that the way Ukrainians and Belorussians were treated was shameful and in their eyes this treaty was a trison (especially by Polish side - I bet Ukrainians and Belorussians never expected anything good from Russians). But as far Poland and Russia were concerned, the treaty was legal and welcomed by both states. Poland was tired with war, needed time to recover and focus on internal problems. Soviet Russia was on its knees still involved in a war against Wrangl's Army. Both sides were not interested in continuation of a conflict which would bring only more victims without clear and decisive victory in near future.
    In my opinion the outcome of this treaty was a failure for Poland, because there were three different ideas represented by the members of polish delegation (instead of presenting one clear vision, they preferred to argue within the delegation - so typical for Poles ). In the begining, there was an idea of federation of states (Poland, Belarussia, Ukraine and Lithuania) but it was given up and the idea of division of the land was forced by nationalist members of delegation.
    Actualy the treaty was needed for both territorial predators - Poland and Russia. However if to put in mind the locals right's were ignored and Boslshevics were still ILLEGAl ( you right about Civil war continied) hardly the such a treaty migh to resolve the troubles.
    There always will be someone unhappy and felling betrayed, so I'm not surprised you give examples.
    But you too are unhappy when remember like Soviets installed the commies in 1945, right? All we feel offensived when someone decided for us - whatever political system we want. Why shell we to ignore the same rights of the other nations?The peoples are the equal , aren't they?You confirm that locals were distressed by the treaty but it was the Legal, coz it was profitable for Poland!

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  11. #26
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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    But you too are unhappy when remember like Soviets installed the commies in 1945, right? All we feel offensived when someone decided for us - whatever political system we want. Why shell we to ignore the same rights of the other nations?The peoples are the equal , aren't they?You confirm that locals were distressed by the treaty but it was the Legal, coz it was profitable for Poland!
    I've never stated that treaty was legal because it was profitable for Poland. Please don't pin that to me.
    According to the 20's international law standards the treaty was legal because it was recognised by both sides and later by other countries. And Belorussians and Ukrainians were not considered as legal entities.
    Today it would look completely different. Kosovo case, for example.
    But was the treaty legal from the moral point of view?
    I don't think so.
    I think the Ukrainians and Belorussians should had been given the same chance to create their own states as Polish had been given after WW1. But nobody was interested in that - Poles, Russians, nor the Western Allies.
    Personally, I think these cards could be played different.
    Instead of that, the hostilities in this part of Europe were fuelled and the economical and social progress was halted for almost whole century.

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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    I've never stated that treaty was legal because it was profitable for Poland. Please don't pin that to me.
    According to the 20's international law standards the treaty was legal because it was recognised by both sides and later by other countries. And Belorussians and Ukrainians were not considered as legal entities.
    Sorry, but this is just another bright example , my friend . How you turn the events in profitable light.
    About "illegal enteties" , let's to see the Warsaw Treaty of 1920.
    The treaty was signed on 21 April in Warsaw (it should be noted that some sources give the dates 20 and 22 April for the signing of the treaty). In exchange for agreeing to a border along the Zbruch River, recognizing the recent Polish territorial gains in western Ukraine (Article II)(obtained by the Poland's defeating the Ukrainian attempt to create another Ukrainian state in Volhynia and Galicia, territories with mixed Ukrainian-Polish population), Poland recognized the Ukrainian People's Republic as an independent state (Article I) with borders as defined by Articles II and III and under ataman Petlura's leadership
    The UPR was declared the same time the Polish Repablic was birth.And it was fully recognized by Poland in 1920. Folow to you logic- the two side Warsaw treaty was International BTW.
    The UPR in face of Semen Petlura has signed the Treaty of Warsaw- he was actual leader of UPR.
    So the so called Reagy treaty was a direct violation of Warsaw treaty. Notice, the Semen Petlura was LEGAL leader, while bolshevics in Riga were just gung of criminals. So again from juridical point- the Rigas treaty can't be the Legal coz it violated the actually LEGAL previous Warsaw Treaty with Independent state of Ukraine.Which Poland succesfully has betrayed. Why?
    Today it would look completely different. Kosovo case, for example.
    It looked the exactly the same in 1943. Volyn?
    But was the treaty legal from the moral point of view?
    I don't think so.
    I think the Ukrainians and Belorussians should had been given the same chance to create their own states as Polish had been given after WW1. But nobody was interested in that - Poles, Russians, nor the Western Allies.
    It's not correct. Actualy the Poland, as we seen has recognized the UPR. But later just joined it to Poland. Illegally.

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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Sorry, but this is just another bright example , my friend . How you turn the events in profitable light.
    Look who's talking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    About "illegal enteties" , let's to see the Warsaw Treaty of 1920.
    You're absolutely right about this one. Poland recognized UPR and agreed to cooperate militarly in order fight the Russians. But later, when it came to start peace talks, Ukrainians were not represented there. Not Poles, nor Russians were interested in independent Ukraine. To be honest with you, Poland requested Russia to accept Ukrainian minister Andrij Liwycki to take part in negotiations. But as expected, Russians stated that the only Ukrainian republic is the Soviet one and Lywicki was not accepted. Of course, it was a perfect excuse for Polish to drop Ukrainian case. They pretended for a while to support their allies, but soon it was clear that Ukrainians had been betrayed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    The UPR was declared the same time the Polish Repablic was birth.And it was fully recognized by Poland in 1920. Folow to you logic- the two side Warsaw treaty was International BTW.
    It is a bit more complicated than that.
    When the Riga Treaty was signed, the other countries accepted it and withdrew their ambassadors from UPR. That meant the UPR lost its recognition as a sovereign state and that made the treaty legal.
    I know it sucks but this is how it works.
    Last edited by Kovalski; 09-28-2011 at 03:29 AM. Reason: Quote correction

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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Kovalski View Post
    You're absolutely right about this one. Poland recognized UPR and agreed to cooperate militarly in order fight the Russians. But later, when it came to start peace talks, Ukrainians were not represented there. Not Poles, nor Russians were interested in independent Ukraine. To be honest with you, Poland requested Russia to accept Ukrainian minister Andrij Liwycki to take part in negotiations. But as expected, Russians stated that the only Ukrainian republic is the Soviet one and Lywicki was not accepted. Of course, it was a perfect excuse for Polish to drop Ukrainian case. They pretended for a while to support their allies, but soon it was clear that Ukrainians had been betrayed.
    But note, the bolshevics had not treaty with UPR in 1921. They had no absolutly any signed international documents dated this period. They were illegal and not legitime. Don't forget it, please. The Riga treaty was signed with ILLEGAL force on one side.The fact that this force seen the Rigas treaty in OWN political aims- to stop the polish advance and to prevent the final military collaps of the bolshevic regime, can't claim the regime was enought legitime to sign the international treaties from a face of population of Russia.
    It is a bit more complicated than that.
    When the Riga Treaty was signed, the other countries accepted it and withdrew their ambassadors from UPR. That meant the UPR lost its recognition as a sovereign state and that made the treaty legal.
    I know it sucks but this is how it works.
    Ok, so if after 1945 the Londont poles lost it's recognition - may we suppose that the imposed by USSR communist govenment of Poland was LEGAL and Legitime?See, the communist govenment were fully recognized by west. And they had a international agreements , signed by the allied powers.Was the post war event also a "bit more compicated" for Poland itself?
    Just understand me correct. I worry for sort of revisionism in history.Any one nations can't claims right for independence, ignored/ forgot the independence of their neighbourds.This is absolutly correct for Russia as well.

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    Default Re: The Augustow Roundup in July, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    But note, the bolshevics had not treaty with UPR in 1921. They had no absolutly any signed international documents dated this period. They were illegal and not legitime. Don't forget it, please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Sorry, but this is just another bright example , my friend . How you turn the events in profitable light.
    I just had to use your own word as a comment

    Ukrainian People's Republic had been recognized by Bolschevik Russia in February 1918. A month later, Russia signed so-called Brest Treaty together with Germany, Austrian Empire and their allies together with UPR.
    The treaty stated that UPR didn't claim any right for Galicia and Russia decided to withdraw itself from any superior relations towards the newly-created states.

    Of course some time later, when it become profitable, Russia withdrew its recognition of independent Ukraine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Ok, so if after 1945 the Londont poles lost it's recognition - may we suppose that the imposed by USSR communist govenment of Poland was LEGAL and Legitime?See, the communist govenment were fully recognized by west. And they had a international agreements , signed by the allied powers.Was the post war event also a "bit more compicated" for Poland itself?
    Just understand me correct. I worry for sort of revisionism in history.Any one nations can't claims right for independence, ignored/ forgot the independence of their neighbourds.This is absolutly correct for Russia as well.
    Yes, when the WW2 ended, polish government-in-exile lost all the recognition, as such an ally was not needed anymore (let's be honest - an ally without money, territory, any prospects for future). It was undoubtedly cynical, but this is exactly how it happened. Western Allies simply "transferred" their recognition on communist government of Poland. The government-in-exile existed till the fall of communism, but it meaning was purely symbolic.
    There is an analogy here. Western Allies behaved in very similar way as Poland did 24 years earlier.

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