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Thread: Equality in death

  1. #16

    Default Re: Equality in death

    The difference between the Jews during WWII and other ethnic groups is that the Germans singled them out. Regardless of the country that the Jews were in, or whether they were in Eastern or Western Europe, the Germans deported and killed them. It is true that numerically many more SU civiilians died than Jews but as someone else said, these were USUALLY (though not always) related to the war. However, the PERCENTAGE of pre-war population of ethnic groups that were killed is much more telling than the raw numbers.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Equality in death

    I'm not sure that numerically more Soviets died than Jews. For that matter, I think both China and Poland may have suffered the greatest number of deaths proportional to population IIRC. I could be wrong about this though...

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    Default Re: Equality in death

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    As Antony Beevor (author of Berlin, Stalingrad, and D-Day--which I am reading now) states it best when discussing the "victimhood" status of raped German women:



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor
    As Antony Beevor (author of Berlin, Stalingrad, and D-Day--which I am reading now) states it best when discussing the "victimhood" status of raped German women:

    Nickdefresh wrote:
    Other historians such as Richard Overy, a historian from King's College London, have criticised Russian "outrage" at the book and defended Beevor. Overy accused the Russians of refusing to acknowledge Soviet war crimes, "Partly this is because they felt that much of it was justified vengeance against an enemy who committed much worse, and partly it was because they were writing the victors' history."[8]

    Beevor has stated that German women were part of a society that supported Hitler and thus can't be seen as victims in the same way than Jews, Poles and Russians.[10]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor



    Then it will be fair when it comes to russian “victimhood” status to consider that they were part of a society that supported Stalin who killed far more russians than Hitler himself?

    In the original version of his book The Great Terror, Robert Conquest gave the following estimates of those arrested, executed, and incarcerated during the height of the Purge:
    Arrests, 1937-1938 - about 7 million
    Executed - about 1 million
    Died in camps - about 2 million
    In prison, late 1938 - about 1 million
    In camps, late 1938 - about 8 million
    Conquest concluded that "not more than 10 percent of those then in camp survived." Updating his figures in the late 1980s based on recently-released archival sources, he increased the number of "arrests" to 8 million, but reduced the number in camps to "7 million, or even a little less." This would give a total death toll for the main Purge period of just under ten million people. About 98 percent of the dead (Gendercide Watch's calculation) were male.
    The estimates are "only approximations," Conquest notes, and "anything like complete accuracy on the casualty figures is probably unattainable." But "it now seems that further examination of the data will not go far from the estimates we now have except, perhaps, to show them to be understated"; and "in any case, the sheer magnitudes of the Stalin holocaust are now beyond doubt." He cites Joseph Berger's remark that the atrocities of Stalin's rule "left the Soviet Union in the condition of 'a country devastated by nuclear warfare.'" (All figures and quotes from Conquest, The Great Terror: A Reassessment, pp. 485-88.)
    http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html


    And yet Stalin was funded and armed by the allies, a paradox that could be explained as a real politik matter.


    PD: Some years ago I spent my vacations in NY and went to visit a friend in New London, Connecticut.
    There were some nice small towns around there like Mystic and I remember a charming small town night club in Groton, there were also a town called Hamburg not far away, is that your home?

    Regards,
    Last edited by horst; 06-21-2011 at 03:48 PM.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Equality in death

    Hello.. I would like to see a breakdown, country-by-country,
    of how many soldiers and citizens that lost their lives from the beginning to the official end of World War II. This would give us all a much clearer picture of the loses each country suffered due to the war. If anyone has this data, it would be great to have it posted.

    Thanks!

    Doc

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Equality in death

    Quote Originally Posted by horst View Post
    ....

    Then it will be fair when it comes to russian “victimhood” status to consider that they were part of a society that supported Stalin who killed far more russians than Hitler himself?

    In the original version of his book The Great Terror, Robert Conquest gave the following estimates of those arrested, executed, and incarcerated during the height of the Purge:
    Arrests, 1937-1938 - about 7 million
    Executed - about 1 million
    Died in camps - about 2 million
    In prison, late 1938 - about 1 million
    In camps, late 1938 - about 8 million
    Conquest concluded that "not more than 10 percent of those then in camp survived." Updating his figures in the late 1980s based on recently-released archival sources, he increased the number of "arrests" to 8 million, but reduced the number in camps to "7 million, or even a little less." This would give a total death toll for the main Purge period of just under ten million people. About 98 percent of the dead (Gendercide Watch's calculation) were male.
    The estimates are "only approximations," Conquest notes, and "anything like complete accuracy on the casualty figures is probably unattainable." But "it now seems that further examination of the data will not go far from the estimates we now have except, perhaps, to show them to be understated"; and "in any case, the sheer magnitudes of the Stalin holocaust are now beyond doubt." He cites Joseph Berger's remark that the atrocities of Stalin's rule "left the Soviet Union in the condition of 'a country devastated by nuclear warfare.'" (All figures and quotes from Conquest, The Great Terror: A Reassessment, pp. 485-88.)
    http://www.gendercide.org/case_stalin.html


    And yet Stalin was funded and armed by the allies, a paradox that could be explained as a real politik matter.
    But who invaded whom? Who started the war? Oh, and as far as the United States providing aid to the the Soviets, well, as I've stated in another thread in the form of a rhetorical question: why did Hitler invade Soviet Russia to begin with? To "save" mankind from "Jewish-Bolshevism?" Or from capitalistic American "Jewry?" I think if you read Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction, you'll inevitably agree that Hitler's rationale of invading the U.S.S.R. had less to do with stopping Stalin and more to do with attempting to achieve economic and industrial parity with the United States. To position Germany for a 'long war' with the "Jewish" controlled U.S.A....


    PD: Some years ago I spent my vacations in NY and went to visit a friend in New London, Connecticut.
    There were some nice small towns around there like Mystic and I remember a charming small town night club in Groton, there were also a town called Hamburg not far away, is that your home?

    Regards,
    I don't live in Connecticut, though I do work there sometimes. It's New York actually...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 07-07-2011 at 11:46 PM.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Equality in death

    Quote Originally Posted by doc4aday View Post
    Hello.. I would like to see a breakdown, country-by-country,
    of how many soldiers and citizens that lost their lives from the beginning to the official end of World War II. This would give us all a much clearer picture of the loses each country suffered due to the war. If anyone has this data, it would be great to have it posted.

    Thanks!

    Doc
    I know, it's only Wikipedia, but better than nothing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

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    Default Re: Equality in death

    Thanks for the information. It has been most helpful

    Doc!

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Equality in death

    As Antony Beevor (author of Berlin, Stalingrad, and D-Day--which I am reading now) states it best when discussing the "victimhood" status of raped German women:

    Nickdefresh wrote:
    Other historians such as Richard Overy, a historian from King's College London, have criticised Russian "outrage" at the book and defended Beevor. Overy accused the Russians of refusing to acknowledge Soviet war crimes, "Partly this is because they felt that much of it was justified vengeance against an enemy who committed much worse, and partly it was because they were writing the victors' history."[8]

    Beevor has stated that German women were part of a society that supported Hitler and thus can't be seen as victims in the same way than Jews, Poles and Russians.[10]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor


    Then it will be fair when it comes to russian “victimhood” status to consider that they were part of a society that supported Stalin who killed far more russians than Hitler himself?
    A victim is a victim; wartime produces a lot of different types of victims, all of which suffer horribly.

    As for the original question, consider these things as well.

    1. WW2 was the last "good war". Part of the reason for that is that it was a pretty straightforward affair. Germany (and the Axis) was bad; the US (and the Allies) were good. Where's the proof? The Germans invaded everyone (generally speaking) and--look!--when we defeated them we found out they were actually practicing genocide on the Jews. (Yes, the government probably knew this beforehand but the general population didn't). Hence, the Jews were/are a central pillar in the general knowledge that this was a "good war".

    2. For years we didn't care that 20 million Russians died in the war. They were godless commies during the Cold War and we didn't like them. So why would we in any way glorify their efforts? I find that most people still don't realize how many Russians died during this conflict.

    3. Simplicity. If you can summarize the conflict in simple, short terminology (and ideology) then it is easier to "sell" the package. I'm not saying that the government needed to sell the US on the war (not after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor anyway) but initially there was some worry that the American public would be all set to go to war against Japan but not against Germany. Fortunately, Hitler solved that issue by declaring war on us. However, the "simple" messages of WW2 have continued to this day; there is very little interest (outside of history forums and general history geeks) to delve deeper into the reasons for the conflict and add layers to the atrocities and/or heroics of that period of time.

    Just my thoughts.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Equality in death

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    1. WW2 was the last "good war".
    And probably the first, or not a good war at all, if we discount other wars regarded as 'good' by one or more of the participants, such as the Crusades or the American War of Independence.

    The problem with the concept of WWII as a 'good war' is that, like all other 'good wars', it is good from one side, but it depends upon which side you're on. From the Japanese or German perspective, their initiation of conflict in WWII could be seen as 'good' as they were reacting to the 'bad' actions of their enemies which generally had acquired colonial possessions by formal or informal military action or related expansion (e.g. India, Texas, Philippines) but which denied Germany and Japan the same expansion.

    WWII wasn't any different to any other wars. It was about a contest for territory, trade, and a clash of political / ethnic / religious beliefs. It just happened to be fought on a vastly larger scale of combatant nations and across more geography and killed many more people than previous wars, but it wasn't any more a good or bad war than any other except to the the extent that the Allies were less brutal than the Nazis and Japanese, although the Allies had in their own pasts been just a brutal on a smaller scale (e.g. British response to Indian Mutiny; American conquest of indigenous lands and peoples).

    However, from my perspective, which is undoubtedly influenced by my upbringing in an Allied nation, I think it was a good war to rid the world of the Nazis and Japanese militarists, if only because their genocidal brutality and systematic inhumanity forfeited all right to consideration as reasonable human beings. Which happens to be the same sort of mentality which allowed them to regard other people as lesser beings undeserving of moral or humane treatment.

    So, in the end, it's questionable whether any of us can justifiably claim the moral high ground because it's all a question of perspective from one's standpoint.

    Pretty much like some Muslim martyrs are currently regarded by their brethren as heroes but by me and many others as religious ****wits who should be given every opportunity to fulfil their desire to blow themselves up, albeit without hurting anyone else.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: Equality in death

    "Good war"... Terms like "good war" or "righteous war" etc. are in the end propaganda slogans. War is never good. Every side claimed in this (and every other conflict) to have been fighting the righteous war against evil. That is the only way to make the own nation follow into war, giving them the feeling to do something good.

    To come to the initial topic, well, it depends what you are watching or reading etc.

    For example, I saw some german documentaries dealing with this matter:

    One was about the Holocaust. The focus was of course on the Jewish victims of the concentration camps, the concentration camps themselves and the Nazis who were involved.

    Another one was about the fate of German civilians during the war. Initial propaganda and cheering about the early victory, later the bombardements, massive destruction and death, emotional damages, how people lived through all this. And in the end, the nearing end of the war, the battles in Germany itself, behavious of Allied troops (for all sides positive and negative).

    And one dealing with the whole war (more than 4 hours long), dealing with the suffering of all nations.

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    Default Re: Equality in death

    "Good war"... Terms like "good war" or "righteous war" etc. are in the end propaganda slogans. War is never good. Every side claimed in this (and every other conflict) to have been fighting the righteous war against evil. That is the only way to make the own nation follow into war, giving them the feeling to do something good.
    My point was more about public perception than any actual fact about the nature of war. We view, in general, WWII as a "good war" and part of that is to vilify the opponent in the claim that we were the good guys. That is often done by showing how they treated others worse than we did (whether you agree with this or not) and that is illustrated, concerning WWII, with the German treatment of the people in occupied countries--primarily focusing on the Jews (and Poles).

    This is one reason why there is no "equality in death"; we view the war from the point of us being righteous in almost everything we do and our opponents being evil.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Equality in death

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    My point was more about public perception than any actual fact about the nature of war. We view, in general, WWII as a "good war" and part of that is to vilify the opponent in the claim that we were the good guys.
    I don't disagree with that, except that the comment "we view, in general, WWII as a "good war"" implies that the 'we' who view it as a good war are probably among the English speaking nations.

    I doubt that the Soviets saw much in their experience of it to suggest that it was a 'good war', not least because their experience of it included appalling civilian experiences which none of the English speaking nations experienced as attacked or occupied nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    That is often done by showing how they treated others worse than we did (whether you agree with this or not) and that is illustrated, concerning WWII, with the German treatment of the people in occupied countries--primarily focusing on the Jews (and Poles).
    Numerically, the focus should be on the Russians and others in the East under attack and occupation by the Germans.

    But there is also the problem that much of the mistreatment of Jews was not unique to the Nazis as there was an undercurrent of hostility to the Jews in many nations which facilitated the Nazi programs against the Jews. With the exception of the Dutch and in some surprising respects as an Axis power Italy, and perhaps the Belgians about whom I know nothing, there aren't many nations in Europe which can demonstrate fairly clean hands in their dealings with the Jews under the Nazis and local fascist governments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    This is one reason why there is no "equality in death"; we view the war from the point of us being righteous in almost everything we do and our opponents being evil.
    Agreed.

    My point was that righteousness depends upon one's standpoint.

    Was Hitler's righteousness any less valid than Stalin's, or Churchill's, once we accept that they were all pursuing national and related, such as political doctrine, objectives?

    It's only when we choose which national and related objectives to support that most of us will decide which of them was righteous. And that's an arbitrary decision which has little moral content in the sense of some sort of absolute morality, whatever 'absolute morality' might mean.
    ..
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    Default Re: Equality in death

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    My point was more about public perception than any actual fact about the nature of war. We view, in general, WWII as a "good war" and part of that is to vilify the opponent in the claim that we were the good guys.
    Well, you are talking about the US standpoint. That is how it was seen in the US. But other countries had other views.

    I am Croat for example.

    Croats had different points of views.

    Those who supported the Axis saw the Serb-ruled Yugoslavia (and therefor the Serbs) as evil as well as communism, which were to be fought merciless.

    Those who supported the Allies saw the Axis as the evil, but not really because of the treatment of Jews, but because of the own treatment received. There were not that many Jews in Yugoslavia before the war like Poland for example. Even though they were nearly exterminated in Yugoslavia, they were not a major reason for the Yugoslavs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    That is often done by showing how they treated others worse than we did (whether you agree with this or not) and that is illustrated, concerning WWII, with the German treatment of the people in occupied countries--primarily focusing on the Jews (and Poles).

    True, the US for example didn't go so far like the Germans (by far not so far). But still, you can find some points that were not so noble etc. (just like about everyone else)

    To give again the point of a Croat, one thing not so noble was the support of the Četniks by the US (and the Commonwealth) with the reason that they were royalist and therefor not communist. They worked very often together with the Axis (later in the war practically always) and the commited many war crimes on the civilians population.

    This was not meant to offend you or so, but to give you maybe another point of view, how it looks in other nations, just as you presented the point of view in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    But there is also the problem that much of the mistreatment of Jews was not unique to the Nazis as there was an undercurrent of hostility to the Jews in many nations which facilitated the Nazi programs against the Jews. With the exception of the Dutch and in some surprising respects as an Axis power Italy, and perhaps the Belgians about whom I know nothing, there aren't many nations in Europe which can demonstrate fairly clean hands in their dealings with the Jews under the Nazis and local fascist governments.
    For what I know the Albanians also quite successfully saved their Jews, with most of them surviving the war. Also Bulgaria comes to my mind. But generally, most of the collaboratours did their best to satisfy their new masters.

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    Default Re: Equality in death

    Yes, I spoke from the US perspective but my impression was that the original question was basically from the US perspective. Looking back at the first post, I see it was more general than that and the reference to The History Channel, etc... was later. My apologies for that.

    I am very aware of the losses in other countries during WWII and have been for years. My intention was not to belittle those losses but to address, in short form, why they are not really well known (in the US).
    Last edited by Byron; 07-14-2011 at 11:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Equality in death

    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    Yes, I spoke from the US perspective but my impression was that the original question was basically from the US perspective. Looking back at the first post, I see it was more general than that and the reference to The History Channel, etc... was later. My apologies for that.
    As I said, it was more thought to present another point of view (I find such things highly interesting for example).

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