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Thread: Happy Easter

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Maybe, but can you be certain?


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  2. #17
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yeoman View Post
    Gosh chaps, all I wanted to do was wish you all a good easter ...
    and you did it so well.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  3. #18
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Yeoman View Post
    Gosh chaps, all I wanted to do was wish you all a good easter and it seems to have sparked a theolgical debate!!
    You think that's bad?

    Wait till you see what happens when you wish us Merry Christmas / Xmas.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    Pax Vobiscum - Peace be with you!
    And with you.

    I preferred the Tridentine Mass for a bit of theatre. The English version is bad enough on its own, in much the same way that performing Shakespeare in Nazi uniforms etc is seriously off, but it really went downhill when (like Shakespeare plays performed with audience participation) they introduced singing nuns and bearded priests with guitars connecting with the people (who used to be called the laity).

    In my day as an altar boy in the late 1950s, if I recall correctly, nobody but the priest could touch the host because only consecrated hands could touch it. If the host was dropped, the priest had to pick it up. Now the priest puts it in the recipient's hands. And, worse, they've gone all Protestant with drinking wine. I'm buggered if I'd put my lips around a chalice that the tubercular old slag next to me has just drunk from.

    Anyway, it's all academic because I'm not part of the club, but from time to time I'm forced to attend weddings, funerals, confirmations etc which make me realise that no religion is going to grab me unless it involves high theatre. Which pretty much rules out Islam, because I don't want to be looking at the arse of the bloke in front of me while I'm making my devotions. The Aztecs knew how to have a really good show, but I think their ceremonies might be against the law nowadays. Whirling Dervishes know how to have all around good time and getting dizzy isn't against the law, so I might give them a shot.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    I preferred the Tridentine Mass for a bit of theatre.
    As did I.

    In my day as an altar boy in the late 1950s, if I recall correctly, nobody but the priest could touch the host because only consecrated hands could touch it. If the host was dropped, the priest had to pick it up. Now the priest puts it in the recipient's hands. And, worse, they've gone all Protestant with drinking wine. I'm buggered if I'd put my lips around a chalice that the tubercular old slag next to me has just drunk from.
    That is precisely why I have never received it.

    which make me realise that no religion is going to grab me unless it involves high theatre.
    This is a very interesting point.

    There appears to be a very strong requirement for things spiritual to contain ritual to give them meaning.
    Last edited by 32Bravo; 04-25-2011 at 07:25 AM.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  6. #21
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    Maybe, but can you be certain?
    Life taught me that you can't be certain about anything, even about what's in my mind...
    Kill one man, terrify a thousand

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by skorzeny57 View Post
    Life taught me that you can't be certain about anything, even about what's in my mind...
    The pearls of wisdom which life bestows - on some!


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  8. #23
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    There appears to be a very strong requirement for things spiritual to contain ritual to give them meaning.
    Maybe it's the other way around.

    Witness the impact of the Nazi theatre of the Nuremberg Rallies and sundry other spectacular parades etc as having the impact to draw in adherents and impress even unbelievers.

    I was conscious in my comments on the Tridentine Mass that it revealed a preference for theatre over faith, but it's the rituals which sometimes matter more to humans than the belief the rituals represent.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Maybe it's the other way around.

    Witness the impact of the Nazi theatre of the Nuremberg Rallies and sundry other spectacular parades etc as having the impact to draw in adherents and impress even unbelievers.

    I was conscious in my comments on the Tridentine Mass that it revealed a preference for theatre over faith, but it's the rituals which sometimes matter more to humans than the belief the rituals represent.
    You present a strong case for invented traditon, RS.

    "'Invented tradition' is taken to mean a set of practices, normally governed by overtly or tacitly accepted rules and of a ritual or symbolic nature, which seek to inculcate certain values and norms of behaviour by repetition, which automatically implies continuity with the past. In fact, where possible, they normally attempt to establish continuity with a suitable historic past.... However, insofar as there is such reference to a historic past, the peculiarity of 'invented' traditions is that the continuity with it is largely fictitious. In short, they are responses to novel situations which take the form of reference to old situations, or which establish their own past by quasi-obligatory repetition."

    https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/c...ltorf/6.3.html


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  10. #25
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    You present a strong case for invented traditon, RS.

    "'Invented tradition' is taken to mean a set of practices, normally governed by overtly or tacitly accepted rules and of a ritual or symbolic nature, which seek to inculcate certain values and norms of behaviour by repetition, which automatically implies continuity with the past. In fact, where possible, they normally attempt to establish continuity with a suitable historic past.... However, insofar as there is such reference to a historic past, the peculiarity of 'invented' traditions is that the continuity with it is largely fictitious. In short, they are responses to novel situations which take the form of reference to old situations, or which establish their own past by quasi-obligatory repetition."

    https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/c...ltorf/6.3.html
    I have some vague recollection of Hobsbawm from university in the 1970s or something soon after (when parts of my brain were still somewhat active), but not for anything specific.

    There is a contrary possibility to "invented tradition" on the academic front, which is the creation of traditions and a myth by sloppy or plain fraudulent research. The best example of this is challenges to Margaret Mead's supposedly ground breaking research which for several decades stood as virtual dogma. http://www.stpt.usf.edu/~jsokolov/314mead1.htm
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    I have some vague recollection of Hobsbawm from university in the 1970s or something soon after (when parts of my brain were still somewhat active), but not for anything specific.
    That's odd, I was certain your uni days would have pre-dated the 70's ?

    There is a contrary possibility to "invented tradition" on the academic front, which is the creation of traditions and a myth by sloppy or plain fraudulent research. The best example of this is challenges to Margaret Mead's supposedly ground breaking research which for several decades stood as virtual dogma. http://www.stpt.usf.edu/~jsokolov/314mead1.htm
    Interesting how these 'academic cathedrals' are eventually brought down.

    The case for 'invented tradition' seems pretty straight forward and examples of it are everywhere. It seems that Mead was 'inventing' invented traditions where they didn't exist for her own academic ends re: Samoa - cheat?

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    That's odd, I was certain your uni days would have pre-dated the 70's ?
    They should have started in 1968 (if I'd gone to uni, but the original plan was to go to agricultural college to learn to run and expand the family farm) but I left school (and, for the final and joyous time, home on the same day) in 1965 at 15 and knocked around in a variety of jobs and places.

    When I had reached the dizzying heights of being a railway shunter at 19 with the prospect of spending the rest of my life on rotating day / afternoon / night shifts (rotating shifts seriously bugger up your social life and drinking cycle) I changed jobs so I could go to night school.

    I qualified for university, although my aim was rather more modest when I started night school, at 23.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    Interesting how these 'academic cathedrals' are eventually brought down.

    The case for 'invented tradition' seems pretty straight forward and examples of it are everywhere. It seems that Mead was 'inventing' invented traditions where they didn't exist for her own academic ends re: Samoa - cheat?
    Assuming Mead's research and publications were unreliable in some respects, and they seem to be, it remains that she was working in a newish area which wasn’t ‘hard’ science and that she was guilty of rather less than a lot of others in areas of harder science in the same era, such as the use of phrenology by the Nazis and many others and lobotomies as a cure for psychiatric illnesses.

    I suspect that part of the appeal of Mead’s work was that it had elements of ‘the noble savage’ in it, demonstrating that people in a relatively primitive society avoided the problems of those in her contemporary American society. Not to mention a good bit of sexual liberality among the naughty natives, which was titillating at the time and for several decades afterwards.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Salute


  14. #29
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ1 View Post
    Salute

    You got a burnt parsnip for Easter?
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Happy Easter

    You scrape the horseradish onto the kielbasa and egg the shoot the VO shot then chew the heck out of the egg kielbasas and shredded horseradish. It's kind of like the tequila salt and lemon ritual. It's an Easter thing before church,,,LOL.


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