Previously unknown Italian anti-tank Battalion

[DavidW]

Reading through the transcripts of the war diaries of the D.A.K, I have stumbled upon the following..................Dated 17/11/41.
"The Italian command would order to Agedabia all the available resources that were available in Tripolotania, and an attempt would also be made to fly in a Battalion of anti tank troops, their guns, fuel & ammunition....................
XXI Corpo disengaged from the enemy with only slight losses in equipment and reached their new positions. These being Trento & Pavia Divisions at Tmimi, Brescia at Derna, where the Bologna already occupied the Southern sector.
An anti tank battalion which had just been made available by the Italian high command, to cover the withdrawal of XXI Corpo at Tmimi, was over run by the enemy & annaihalated.

I know of no such anti tank battalion. Which one could it be?

[Uyraell]

Thinking about your post,I don't think there "is" an anti-tank battalion as such. I do recall vaguely that there was an anti tank formation as an integral part of the 90th "light" Ariete division, but I'm more than a little vague as to the size of said unit, because something in memory says it was never actually brought up to full establishment, even though it was recorded as being so "on paper". Back of mind insists in the same vague tones that it was only two or three A-T batteries of 4 guns each, which would give a company-sized unit at best, if ever filled out to TOE.

Unfortunately, I cannot be more helpful than that, as I've long-since been without the source book this came from.

I'd hope another forum member might be better able to fill in the gaps.

Respectful Regards DavidW, Uyraell.

[fredl109]

Hello my knowledge and according to my sources, there are no sections consist of tank but rather small groups paid to unit at the option of following the time and needs the land. This is due to the severe shortage of materials and equipment of the Italian troops, although the Germans gave up a certain number of their own equipment that could not ever be a time that this battalion.
Sincerely Fred

[Uyraell]

Which would seem to agree with my post, Fred109.

Kind and Respectful Regards, and Salut, Uyraell.

[fredl109]

Which would seem to agree with my post, Fred109.

Kind and Respectful Regards, and Salut, Uyraell.

It's just that your sources are good Uyraell and it is always nice to know there are people like you who is interested in the Italian army, more books on this subject are not very many compared dealing with thousands of other on allies or Germany at the same time.
Thank you and regards. Fred

[DavidW]

Fred.

Are you saying that the D.A.K war diaries are NOT a good source, and that Uyraell's long lost anomymous source book is?

[Uyraell]

Perhaps it is that I'm Kiwi.
As a kid I grew up with Italian kids at school, along with kids from 22 other nationalities.
In later life, I was a Taxi Driver, and so grew to know a few Italians in that trade also.
They were more than surprised that I had studied WW2 since about age 6, and could discuss Italian matters in that conflict with them reasonably easily.

While I grant I'm NO "Expert" on matters- Italian during WW2, I was reasonably widely read at the time on much of WW2.
Then too, at that time there were books available which simply no-longer exist in libraries or publishing lists, and many of which were in fact My sources.

When I write "from memory" or "iIrc" on this forum that is a literal statement. ALL of my vast WW2 collection was destroyed by My ex-fiancee, except for a very few now very rare and precious monographs on rare topics.
Hence, My "sources" are in some cases extremely difficult to properly accredit these days.

Kind and Respectful Regards and Salut, Fred 109, Uyraell.

[Uyraell]

Fred.

Are you saying that the D.A.K war diaries are NOT a good source, and that Uyraell's long lost anomymous source book is?

With much respect DavidW, I don't feel Fred109 is saying that at all.

He was simply paying a gentlemanly compliment because I had demonstrated on this forum some degree of knowledge regarding Italy during World War 2.

If it matters, I too find the D.A.K war diaries reasonably reliable. But, like most war diaries, they are at times prone to inaccuracies simply because at the moment of writing not all relevant information on the topic then being written of was in hand and complete. In short, it is historiographically incorrect or incomplete. I'm unaware of any War Diary written at the time which contained complete information.

The books I had, were written after the war had ended, and when much information was available in memory of the participants in that war, who in some cases had better and more complete information available then, than they had had at the relevant time.

Kind and Respectful Regards DavidW, Uyraell.

[DavidW]

Uyraell.
I'm not judging your memory or the veracity of your lost book. I just don't know what Fred is trying to say. We'll have to wait for him to explain.

[fredl109]

Uyraell.
I'm not judging your memory or the veracity of your lost book. I just don't know what Fred is trying to say. We'll have to wait for him to explain.

Hello David and Uyraell, I do not know if the translator French English reflects my sentences. This is not to say that such log on or such document is false, but to contribute (for my modest part, because I'm not a great expert on the subject) to illuminate a little more about . In talking with members of the forums Italy 1935-45, I learned a lot, ESPECIALLY about what was written during the war and after the war, without that call into question their authors. But now new light on this or that fact is made their appearances, notably by the fact that the archives of the armies that may be declassified has thus enabling cross-checking of information to establish points of views fairer. If I spoke to you two is simply and with my modest means to contribute to your interesting question. I hope to Contibution peus without offend some people, the more I think we have the right to be wrong for my case and if that happens, I hope you'll stop point and that will instead you can tell me how I'm wrong, I prefer this because at least I learn something as well.Thank you all in case you both for animate subjects on the Italian Army, is a subject as I said a little earlier less exploited than others and yet it deserves some attention here.
Friendships with both Fred.

[Uyraell]

Mon ami, en generale le traducteur se reflecte vos phrases assez bien.
Mais, comme mes experiences des traducteurs il peut s'existe quelques trompes d'erreur de temps en temps.
Pour le plus part, on peut dire que ca suffit.

Jamais avoir peur de me demander pour l'assistance avec les langues si vous croyez c'est necessaire. Je trouverai un moyen de vous assister.

Salut et Bien Regards, Uyraell.

[DavidW]

Having to post in something other than your first language must be very tricky, and something that I am lucky never having had to do. I accept that this is probably the reason for Fred's "ambiguous" message, and that no offence was was implied.
Uyraell, your translation offer is very generous.
Best wishes to all,
David.

[Uyraell]

Many Thanks David.
It seemed to me that the discussion here and perhaps in other threads may benefit from offering translation help if needed, despite that I'm about 30 years rusty in it at this stage.

Kind and Respectful Regards David, Uyraell.

[fredl109]

Mon ami, en generale le traducteur se reflecte vos phrases assez bien.
Mais, comme mes experiences des traducteurs il peut s'existe quelques trompes d'erreur de temps en temps.
Pour le plus part, on peut dire que ca suffit.

Jamais avoir peur de me demander pour l'assistance avec les langues si vous croyez c'est necessaire. Je trouverai un moyen de vous assister.

Salut et Bien Regards, Uyraell.

Merci Uyraell pour ton message et pour ton aide, tu parles de ton français, il est exellent et je voudrais bien écrire l'anglais aussi bien, maheureusement mes années d'écoles sont fort loin et je ne l'ai pas pratiqué pendant ma vie professionelle donc j'ai beaucoups de lacunes. Je suis un peu rassuré quand a la retranscription de mes méssage via Ultralingua et Google, j'avais peur que certaines expressions soit mal retrancrite et porte ainsi la confusion. Merci aussi à David pour avoir compris que ce n'était pas une attaque personnelle, je ne le me permettrais pas, sur ses connaissances, mais plutôt une aide à la compréhension de faits qui remonte maintenant à plus de 60 ans et surtout comme je le disait dans l'autre message un autre angle de vue car à force derecroiser les informations, on s'appeçoit que ce que dit un document est vrais pour la partie qui la raconte car elle le voit de son point de vue, mais présente des différences quand c'est l'autre partie qui raconte. De ce fait en croisant les deux points de vues nous arrivons maintenant a savoir ce qu'il en été réellement. Je vous réitéres à tous les deux mes plus sincéres remerciement car les discussions sur l'aspect italien de la 2éme guerre mondial sont moins courantes que le reste et comme c'est un sujet qui m'interésse c'est avec plaisir que je vous lis.
Mes amitiés Uyraell Fred

[Uyraell]

Merci beaucoup Fred pour ton reponse gentil.

It's true indeed that the same document presents different views to two readers.
(C'est vrai que le meme document se present deux aspects de vue `a deux personnes q'y lire.)

But, by exchange of information, a fair conclusion might well be reached.
(Mais, par l'echange d'information une conclusion juste est peut-etre atienable.)

Mes amities `a toi Fred,
Salut et Bien Regards, Uyraell.