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Thread: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

  1. #1
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    Default Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Hi, i am trying to draw the he-162 but it looks so freaking ugly. Anyone can help me improve on this ugly drawing of mine?
    Thanks

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Reminds me of a photo supposedly taken at Leck, in March of 1945.

    I've also seen a pic by Uwe Feist based on that same photo.
    This is found in He. 162, "Volksjaeger" By Aero Series Publications.

    I'm no artist myself, but I rate your drawing as a decent and fair attempt.

    I have drawn 162's, though never published any drawings.

    I disagree though that the aircraft is ugly. To my eyes, it has a certain functional beauty, as does the Ta183 for example, or the BV 212/214, or the BV Ae607 project drawing on the Luft-46 site.

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    There you go buddy, just copy that photo...


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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    I think she was a sexy little plane and if the Salamander was in service for the Normandy landings in good numbers it could have been a totally different outcome.


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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiguy View Post
    I think she was a sexy little plane and if the Salamander was in service for the Normandy landings in good numbers it could have been a totally different outcome.

    The German Luftwaffe could have used any aircraft in numbers at Normandy. I think they had around 300-350 operational aircraft against like something on the order of 13,000 Allied aircraft. I'm not sure this really would have mattered by that point...

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    The German Luftwaffe could have used any aircraft in numbers at Normandy. I think they had around 300-350 operational aircraft against like something on the order of 13,000 Allied aircraft. I'm not sure this really would have mattered by that point...
    Since you're not sure allow me to assist you...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162

    He-162 Salamander Maximum speed: 491 mph (790 km/h) at normal thrust at sea level; capable of 556mph S/L short bursts

    Spitfire Mark VB Maximum speed: 370 mph, (322 kn, 595 km/h)

    P-47 Thunderbolt Maximum speed: 409mph sea level


    Had the Luftwaffe fielded a couple of hundred Salamanders over Normandy they would have been fast and nimble and could have achieved air superiority.

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiguy View Post
    I think she was a sexy little plane and if the Salamander was in service for the Normandy landings in good numbers it could have been a totally different outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiguy View Post
    Since you're not sure allow me to assist you...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162

    He-162 Salamander Maximum speed: 491 mph (790 km/h) at normal thrust at sea level; capable of 556mph S/L short bursts

    Spitfire Mark VB Maximum speed: 370 mph, (322 kn, 595 km/h)

    P-47 Thunderbolt Maximum speed: 409mph sea level


    Had the Luftwaffe fielded a couple of hundred Salamanders over Normandy they would have been fast and nimble and could have achieved air superiority.
    Unfortunately they did not have the pilots to fly them, supposedly built for barely trained pilots they actually required very experienced pilots to fly.

    British test pilot 'Winkle' Brown claimed the HE162 was a better aircraft than the ME 262 but required more skill.

    Combat in the air is rarely won with a simple - this is faster so better - Jets of the time had less range, less acceleration although generally faster top speed, poorer manauverabilty, poorer low level performance.

    First aircraft were ready in January 1945 by that time the Spitfires Mk IX and above were the mks in service and could reach over 400mph with the Griffin engine (nice comparing a 1942 Mk Spit with a 1945 jet).

    Hawker Tempests were available in numbers with top speed over 420 mph, they had the range to follow and shoot down German jets as they landed which was a common allied tactic (with such a short endurance there was not many places for the
    jets to be if to be of use combatting an invasion).
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    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiguy View Post
    Since you're not sure allow me to assist you...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162

    He-162 Salamander Maximum speed: 491 mph (790 km/h) at normal thrust at sea level; capable of 556mph S/L short bursts

    Spitfire Mark VB Maximum speed: 370 mph, (322 kn, 595 km/h)

    P-47 Thunderbolt Maximum speed: 409mph sea level


    Had the Luftwaffe fielded a couple of hundred Salamanders over Normandy they would have been fast and nimble and could have achieved air superiority.
    Hitler had wanted to send his latest V-weapon, but wasn't able to locate an I-phone to operate it with. (and about as likely a possibility as the Axis having a couple hundred Salamanders to deploy. )
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiguy View Post
    Since you're not sure allow me to assist you...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162

    He-162 Salamander Maximum speed: 491 mph (790 km/h) at normal thrust at sea level; capable of 556mph S/L short bursts

    Spitfire Mark VB Maximum speed: 370 mph, (322 kn, 595 km/h)

    P-47 Thunderbolt Maximum speed: 409mph sea level


    Had the Luftwaffe fielded a couple of hundred Salamanders over Normandy they would have been fast and nimble and could have achieved air superiority.
    As with the Me-262 later on the Allied fighters/bombers would just have to lurk the airfields and take'em out one by one.
    "I just ran out of ammo. I will ram this one. Good bye, we'll meet in Valhalla." - Major Heinrich Ehrler, April 4, 1945

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    One further point: it's a hackneyed saying, but fighter pilots make movies, bomber pilots make history. Even if by some miracle the Germans had cooked up a few hundred He-162s for Normandy (which would have been a miracle in itself, since it didn't fly until December 1944), what are they going to do when they get there? At most they can hamper the Allied close air support a bit, beyond that they're totally incapable of affecting the situation on the ground. Even discounting all the fighters, they've got f***-all that can kill ground troops and are facing a lot of light flak.

    The He-162 had a payload including fuel and pilot of 1140 kg - so they're going to have to be based close to the fighting and fly with pretty small warloads. They've got 37 minutes endurance at full throttle, so as a rough rule of thumb they need to be within 10 minutes flying time to have any chance of doing anything useful over the battlefield. That's within 80 miles - given the damage the Allies had done to their air raid warning structure in France by then, chances are they're extremely vulnerable to raids by e.g. Typhoons. Even for fully laden Typhoons that's only 15 minutes flying time - it only needs one raid like that to catch them on the ground and the Allies can send the Heavies in to destroy the airbase with total impunity.

    That isn't to say it isn't a good aircraft, rather that it is utterly outmatched when compared to what the Allies could throw against it - and the "couple of hundred" you're talking about are woefully insufficient compared to what they're facing.
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiguy View Post
    Since you're not sure allow me to assist you...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_162

    He-162 Salamander Maximum speed: 491 mph (790 km/h) at normal thrust at sea level; capable of 556mph S/L short bursts

    Spitfire Mark VB Maximum speed: 370 mph, (322 kn, 595 km/h)

    P-47 Thunderbolt Maximum speed: 409mph sea level


    Had the Luftwaffe fielded a couple of hundred Salamanders over Normandy they would have been fast and nimble and could have achieved air superiority.
    It also had the added option of "Cloak of Invisibility," like all other Luftwaffe aircraft flown during the Battle of Normandy...

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Quote Originally Posted by leccy View Post
    ...
    Hawker Tempests were available in numbers with top speed over 420 mph, they had the range to follow and shoot down German jets as they landed which was a common allied tactic (with such a short endurance there was not many places for the
    jets to be if to be of use combatting an invasion).
    Quote Originally Posted by flamethrowerguy View Post
    As with the Me-262 later on the Allied fighters/bombers would just have to lurk the airfields and take'em out one by one.

    Yup.

    Not just landing, but takeoff also. The Allies had 13,000 combat aircraft to smother the French aerodromes with. 200 jets would have made a difference?
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 02-10-2014 at 05:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Yup.

    Not just landing, but takeoff also. The Allies had 13,000 combat aircraft to smother the French aerodromes with. 200 jets would have made a difference?

    Actually yes they would have, because a tactical speed advantage of such magnitude is a force multiplier and if people do not understand that concept I suggest they stick to reading marvel comic books.

    Neither was the pilot shortage in June 1944 of such magnitude that 200 experienced fighter pilots were not available.

    People here with mischief for a motive and sarcasm in substitution for intelligence are citing the situation for the Luftwaffe in early 1945, not mid 1944.

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Quote Originally Posted by pdf27 View Post
    One further point: it's a hackneyed saying, but fighter pilots make movies, bomber pilots make history. Even if by some miracle the Germans had cooked up a few hundred He-162s for Normandy (which would have been a miracle in itself, since it didn't fly until December 1944), what are they going to do when they get there? At most they can hamper the Allied close air support a bit, beyond that they're totally incapable of affecting the situation on the ground. Even discounting all the fighters, they've got f***-all that can kill ground troops and are facing a lot of light flak.

    The He-162 had a payload including fuel and pilot of 1140 kg - so they're going to have to be based close to the fighting and fly with pretty small warloads. They've got 37 minutes endurance at full throttle, so as a rough rule of thumb they need to be within 10 minutes flying time to have any chance of doing anything useful over the battlefield. That's within 80 miles - given the damage the Allies had done to their air raid warning structure in France by then, chances are they're extremely vulnerable to raids by e.g. Typhoons. Even for fully laden Typhoons that's only 15 minutes flying time - it only needs one raid like that to catch them on the ground and the Allies can send the Heavies in to destroy the airbase with total impunity.

    That isn't to say it isn't a good aircraft, rather that it is utterly outmatched when compared to what the Allies could throw against it - and the "couple of hundred" you're talking about are woefully insufficient compared to what they're facing.
    Actually my father was at Normandy on 6 June 1944 and the Luftwaffe were not shy of making an appearance over the beaches from nearby airbases. Your knowledge is based on conjecture, mine on someone who was there.

    Nor were the Luftwaffe so pitifully inept they could not disperse and hide aircraft.



    The real issue is that Hitler could not be bothered getting out of bed and insisted that the real attack would come at Calais.

    The point of the He-162 that you people with your sharp minds cannot conceive that an aircraft so superior aircraft to Allied aircraft could have owned the sky to sufficient extent that one would not just be talking 200 He-162, but a variety of other aircraft. Air bases could have been under a virtual umbrella of patrolling Fw-190. Had the He-162 been in production in early 1944 then the waves of daylight bombing raids would have been blunted and air superiority over Normandy would not have been so assured.

    Nor is the issue what the He-162 would have inflicted on ground forces... That is a nonsense and i never proposed that, however no army could have survived without air cover and had the Allies been denied air supremacy, then the Allied armies would have been prey to lesser types of Luftwaffe ground attack aircraft.

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    Default Re: Armateur He-162 drawing (advice wanted)

    Actually yes they would have, because a tactical speed advantage of such magnitude is a force multiplier and if people do not understand that concept I suggest they stick to reading marvel comic books.

    Neither was the pilot shortage in June 1944 of such magnitude that 200 experienced fighter pilots were not available.

    People here with mischief for a motive and sarcasm in substitution for intelligence are citing the situation for the Luftwaffe in early 1945, not mid 1944.
    Kiwi, while I doubt your opinion is likely to be swayed, you may wish to look at
    http://www.allworldwars.com/The%20De...r%20Force.html

    "4. The deterioration of pilot quality was first really apparent about March 1944. The cycle had undoubtedly been operating all through 1943, since the first large cut in total training hours of German pilots came late in 1942, followed by a similar cut in mid-1943, and much greater cut in mid-1944 (Figure 3). The last reduction in training hours of German pilots came at a time when oil targets in Germany were given first priority fop Allied strategic bombing. Then the inadequate allocations of fuel which the fighter schools had received could no longer be delivered. The early decision to skimp on gasoline allocations to training schools was turned painfully against the GAF planners who were now unable to ward off the attacks on oil. This was doubly painful because it occurred at a time when German fighter production was increasing."

    I'll just point out you can't magically wish the Germans had 200 planes and pilots without also wishing them the fuel, the training, the support, the logistics and everything else that, if the Germans had, the Allies wouldn't have even been in position to be *considering* an Invasion. Even if you COULD wish all that in place, you cannot wish it in place in a vacuum. There would be Allied counter measures. Then there was the military genius of Hitler, who squandered Luftwaffe strength in the Baby Blitz up to the month before Normandy. If he had your 200 jets in March, would he still have had them in June? I will gladly concede your point that if things were different, they wouldn't be the same -- but exactly at what point do you stop playing the game?

    It seems only at a point that would support your fantasized outcome. Certainly, it goes without saying you can't provide any real data to support your position. So don't be surprised when you get push back to ideas that are, by definition, both unrealistic and un-provable. JMHO.
    Last edited by Ardee; 02-11-2014 at 10:04 PM.
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