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Thread: Cruisers & Battleships.

  1. #1
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    Default Cruisers & Battleships.

    A topic to talk about the elegant and speedy line ships of the Regia Marina, italiy s Royal navy.


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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    ( edite post rep)
    Last edited by Panzerknacker; 09-02-2010 at 09:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    Launching of the cruiser Armando Diaz belonging the second series of the Condottieri class
    http://www.archivioluce.com/archivio...alse&section=/

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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    The Regia Marina (Italian Royal Navy) has two lines of battleship, Cavour (and Andrea Doria that was similar) and Littorio.

    Cavour and Andrea Doria
    These classs of battleship was created during WWI. The principal idea of using battleships in WWII was to use them against France only in Meditteranean theatre. All choises about construction of capital ships are based upon this plan.






    Like Germany, Italy has few boatyards capable of construct boats of this size. At the same time the resources needed are very rare so the introduction of entire new battleship class is too demanding. France has two types battleship, old Lorreine and new acquired Dunkerque. Italy choose to follow at the beginning the English way of totally remodernize his old ships. The renewed battleships can beat old Lorraine easily and still make a serious threat to Dunkerque class, while Italian battleships have less effective and smaller main gun the similar protection and superior speed gave them some advantage.
    Armament was huge, and especially some AA smaller guns were very modern. In Andread Doria class some AA guns are the same mounted on Littorio class. The main guns as usual for Italian biggest naval guns have a very short life, about 150 rounds.
    The armors is good. All the battleships use the "cilindri assorbitori Pugliese", an underwater protection system against torpedo, it was a system of cylinders between armor and hull that absorbes explosions. Today the debate about real benefit of this protection system is still in progress between historians.

    Class Name: Andrea Doria
    Displacement: about 29.300 tonn at max
    Lenght: 186.9 m
    Beam: 28 m
    Draught: 10.35 m
    Propulsion: 8 Yarrow boilers, 2 boilers Belluzzo with total 85.000 hp on 2 shafts
    Speed: (max) 27 knots
    Range: 4250 nautic miles @ 12 knots
    Armament: ten cannons 320/44 (main anti ship)
    twelve cannons 12 x 135/4 (secondary anti ship)
    ten cannons 90/50 (dual use)
    twelve cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    sixten cannons 20/65 (anti aircraft)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 100 mm
    (max) Vertical 250 mm
    (max) Turrets 280 mm
    (max) Barbettes 305 mm
    (max) Main turrets 260 mm
    Men: 1495

    Class Name: Cavour
    Displacement: about 29.100 tonn at max
    Lenght: 186.4 m
    Beam: 28 m
    Draught: 10.35 m
    Propulsion: 8 Yarrow boilers, 2 boilers Belluzzo with total 93.000 hp on 2 shafts
    Speed: (max) 28 knots
    Range: 3100 nautic miles @ 20 knots
    Armament: ten cannons 320/44 (main anti ship)
    twelve cannons 120/50 (secondary anti ship)
    eight cannons 100/47 (dual use)
    sixten cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    twelve cannons 20/65 (anti aircraft)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 100 mm
    (max) Vertical 250 mm
    (max) Turrets 280 mm
    (max) Barbettes 305 mm
    (max) Main turrets 260 mm
    Men: 1436



    Littorio class


    This class rapresents the best battleship class in Europe at the time when it is created. This class has huge hitting power, heavy armor while keeping high speed, highest than his competitors. Only drawback: like others two italian capitol ship class the only theatre of operation is the Mediterranean, so the range is smaller compared with others battleship. The class broke every aspect of Naval Treaty of Washington.
    The armament was very good, main 381 mm gun has a better range than Iowa and Yamato battleship class and highest muzzle velocity. This remarkable abilities means that barrels must be changed every 142 shots (Bismark 180 and English 335). Also recharging was slow, 1.3 shot every minute, for example Bismark shots 2.3 shot every minute, only France has a battleship with slower rate of fire, Richeliu. Another excellent gus was the dual-purpose 90/50 Modello 1939, that is slightly better than well-known 88 mm.
    The armors is good. All the battleships use the "cilindri assorbitori Pugliese", an underwater protection system against torpedo, it was a system of cilenders between armor and hull that absorbe explosions. Today the debate about real benefit of this protection system is still in progress between historians.
    The Rome battleship, a Littorio class, was the first ship to be sunked in 1943 by a stand-off weapon, a primitive anti-ship missile Fritz-x launched from a Do 217 for revenge against treacher of Italy.
    After 1943 Churchill himself wants to use this new battleships in the Pacific theatre. US don't allow British to do this, because it means that they will acquire capitol ships so they must accept that in some operations the commander will be UK admiral on his new battleship. So the Italian battleships start the trip to Asia, but they halted at Suez Channel. After end of WWII Churchill don't let that Italy keep any battleship on active duty so after 1948 Allies impose to Italy to scrap his battleships.

    Class Name: Littorio
    Displacement: about 46.215 tonn at max
    Lenght: 240.7 m
    Beam: 32.9 m
    Draught: 10.5 m
    Propulsion: 8 Yarrow boilers, 4 boilers Belluzzo with total 140.000 hp on 4 shafts
    Speed: (max) 30 knots
    Range: 4580 nautic miles @ 16 knots, 3920 @ 20 knots
    Armament: nine cannons 381/50 (main anti ship)
    twelve cannons 152/55 (secondary anti ship)
    twelve cannons 90/50 (dual use)
    twenty cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    twentyeight cannons 20/65 (anti aircraft)
    unknown number heavy machine gun 13.2/76
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 207 mm
    (max) Vertical 350 + 36 + 24 mm
    (max) Turrets 350 mm
    (max) Barbettes 350 mm
    (max) Main turrets 280 mm
    Men: 1920
    Aircraf: 3 Reggiane Re.2000
    Last edited by burp; 09-13-2010 at 10:01 AM.
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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    Tante grazie, great information Burp !

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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    This are the 381mm guns of the Littorio class in action.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfHTbW_iyBA

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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    The Regia Marina (Italian Royal Navy) has:
    - one line of aircraft;
    - two lines of heavy cruiser;
    - two lines of light cruiser;
    Italy starts war knowing that it needs aircraft carriers, also Mussolini know it. But for a rural country like Italy in '30 the budget for defense upgrade are so poor that it can concentrate his resource on few objectives. High Admirals choose, with stupidity, that the priority is the construction of battleships.
    After attack to battleship in Taranto base by English torpedo bomber and the disastrous battle of Matapan in 1941 the same high admirals must admit that Navy needs too much aircraft carrier. In real the problem of Navy was his total lack of any type of coordination with Air Force. In 1942/1943 the renewed collaboration with Italian and Nazi Air Force prove that airplanes from Sicily and Greece can be an invaluable wepon against English Meditteranean Fleet, without using aircraft carrier. This obviosly is true only in Meditteranean theatre of operation.
    The cruiser, both heavy and light, are constructed as usual thinking about "traditional" foe, the France. At the start they are similar to french cruiser: heavy guns, high speed and pathetic armour. After some waste of precious resources in these type of ships, the Italy starts to construct good cruiser with excellent fire power, mobility and armour.
    Like Germany, Italy wasn't able to use his aircraft carriers.


    Aquila and Sparviero
    Like Germany, Italy find that he needs aircraft carrier and doesn't have resources and time for construction of new ships.



    Aquila is a truly aircraft carrier while Sparviero is an escort aircraft carrier. Both of them inherit from aircraft carrier previous projects, from project Gagnotto they inherit the concept of modify an already existing civilian ship, from project Bozzoni they inherite the use as anti torpedo armor additional bilges underwater and filled with reinforced concrete; this a was a cheaper version of steel armor.
    Aquila was constructed starting from Roma, the biggest civilian transatlantic that Italy had at the time. Aquila has one flying deck with central island on the right, and a deck below that will be used as shelter for airplanes. The additionals bilges also gives to it a more streamlined hull. The anti-aircraft armament was very huge, the eight guns 135/45 are very huge, some historian say that they will be used as dual-purpose guns. The guns are placed in special tees on island and on border of hull. The airplanes used will be fighter-bomber Reggiane Re.2001 borrewed by Royal Italian Air Force. This airplane uses Daimler Benz licence-build with 1175 hp will be available in 3 configurations:
    - fighter, with 2 heavy machine gun 12.7 mm and 2 light machine gun 7.7 mm;
    - night-fighter, with 2 heavy machine gun 12.7 mm and 2 light machine gun 7.7 mm and 1 20 mm gun;
    - fighter-bomber, with 2 heavy machine gun 12.7 mm and 2 light machine gun 7.7 mm and a single 640 kg bomb;
    The Re.201 can reach the speed of 540 km/h. The version with folding wing never reach the operational status, so
    the Aquila can have only 55 Re.2001. Re.2001 will be launched from two steam catapults, one every 30 seconds. There will be 4 lifter on flying deck.
    The armour over the water is not common. Only gas depot and ammo depot have it.
    Acquila was hit by bomber in 1942. At the armistice, 8 september 1943, the unit is available for test at sea, with 90% of constructions finished. The crew disable Aquila before Nazi can get it. On 16 June 1944 was hit by american bombardiers. In 19 April 1945 was attacked by frogmen special unit of Royal Italian Navy, to deny the
    possibility that German sink it at the gate of his harbour. It was retaken in 24 april 1945 and then scrapped in 1952.

    Name: Aquila
    Displacement: about 29.300 tonn at max
    Lenght: 232.5 m
    Beam: 29.4 m
    Draught: 7.39 m
    Lenght flight deck: 216.2 m
    Beam flight deck: 25.3 m
    Propulsion: 8 Yarrow boilers, 4 boilers Parson with total 148.000 hp on 4 shafts
    Speed: (max) 30 knots
    Armament: 8 cannons 135/45 (dual use)
    12 cannons 65/45 (anti aircraft)
    135 machine gun 20/65 (anti aircraft)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 76 mm, only flight deck
    (max) Vertical 600 mm (a combined steel and reinforced concrete only in
    underwater hull)
    (max) Gas depo 60 mm
    (max) Ammo depo 80 mm
    Men: 1375 (Navy) + 253 (Air Force)
    Airplane:55

    Sparverio is the cheap version of Aquila. It was constructed starting from the twin ship of Roma, Augustus. It doesn't have the central island and new propulsion system. For weight saving the use armor above water was denied.
    At the armistice, 8 september 1943 the work was just started. It was sunked on 15 october 1944 at the entrance of Genoa harbour as obstruction against naval assault by Allies. It was moved in 1947 in dock and then scrapped.



    Name: Sparviero
    Displacement: about 29.300 tonn at max
    Lenght: 232.5 m
    Beam: 29.4 m
    Draught: 7.39 m
    Speed: (max) 20 knots
    Armament: 12 cannons 135/45 (dual use)
    12 cannons 65/45 (anti aircraft)
    unknown number of machine gun 20/65 (anti aircraft)
    Armor: (max) Vertical 600 mm (a combined steel and reinforced concrete only in underwater hull)
    Men: 1375 (Navy) + 253 (Air Force)
    Airplane:34 Re.2001 or 16 Re.2001 and 9 torpedo bomber


    Trento


    This class, like europen cruiser of that time, especially French, has weak armour and great speed and guns. The speed was his best advantage and greater disadvantage: to get more speed builders save every tons of armor they can. This mean they have greater speed than their foes. The guns are huge but too bulky for an hull like these so they aren't too much accurate when fired togheter. The Italian try to slower muzzle velocity and use projectile lighter but this problem was never totally resolved.
    For some times, while waiting new battleships, Trento cruiser class ship were the flagships of Italian Navy.
    In combat these type of ship prove to bee to much fragile to heavy weapons.

    Class Name: Trento
    Displacement: about 14.600 tonn at max
    Lenght: 197 m
    Beam: 20.6 m
    Draught: 6.8 m
    Propulsion: 10 Yarrow boilers, 4 turbin Parsons with total 150.000 hp on 4 shafts
    Speed: (max) 35 knots
    Range: 4160 nautic miles @ 16 knots
    Armament: 8 cannons 203/50 (anti ship)
    16 cannons 100/47 (dual use)
    8 cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    4 heavy machine gun 13.2/76 (anti aircraft)
    8 torpedo launcher 533 mm (anti ship)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 50 mm
    (max) Vertical 70 mm
    (max) Turrets 100 mm
    (max) Barbettes 100 mm
    (max) Main turrets 100 mm
    Men: 781
    Aircraf: 3 launched from a catapult on stern


    Zara


    A heavy cruiser, fast and deadly and with a good armor for his class.

    Class Name: Zara
    Displacement: about 14.762 tonn at max
    Lenght: 182.8 m
    Beam: 20.6 m
    Draught: 7.2 m
    Propulsion: 8 Yarrow boiler, 2 turbin Parsons with total 95.000 hp on 4 shafts
    Speed: (max) 33 knots
    Range: 5.361 nautic miles @ 16 knots
    Armament: 8 cannons 203/50 (anti ship)
    16 cannons 100/47 (dual use)
    8 cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    8 heavy machine gun 13.2/76 (anti aircraft)
    8 torpedo launcher 533 mm (anti ship)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 70 mm
    (max) Vertical 70 mm
    (max) Turrets 150 mm
    (max) Barbettes 150 mm
    (max) Main turrets 150 mm
    Men: 852
    Aircraf: 2 launched from a catapult on stern


    Bolzano


    Similar to Trento, some historian confused Bolzano and Trento class. Bolzano is still designed to be fast, ignoring needing of good armor. Bolzano is named "beatiful error", because it lacks armors but his profile is beatiful to see.

    Class Name: Bolzano
    Displacement: about 13.885 tonn at max
    Lenght: 197 m
    Beam: 20.6 m
    Draught: 6.8 m
    Propulsion: 10 Yarrow boiler, 4 turbin Parsons with total 150.000 hp on 4 shafts
    Speed: (max) 35 knots
    Range: 4.432 nautic miles @ 16 knots
    Armament: 8 cannons 203/53 (anti ship)
    16 cannons 100/47 (dual use)
    8 cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    8 heavy machine gun 13.2/76 (anti aircraft)
    8 torpedo launcher 533 mm (anti ship)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 50 mm
    (max) Vertical 75 mm
    (max) Turrets 100 mm
    (max) Barbettes 152 mm
    (max) Main turrets 100 mm
    Men: 788
    Aircraf: 3 launched from a catapult on stern
    Last edited by burp; 09-13-2010 at 10:07 AM.
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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    Good info here on these ships and more.

    http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.u...n_cruisers.htm

    Deaf
    “We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand

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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    Thanks for the link Deaf Smith.

    The Regia Marina (Italian Royal Navy) has:
    - one line of aircraft;
    - two lines of heavy cruiser;
    - two lines of light cruiser;
    Italy starts war knowing that it needs aircraft carriers, also Mussolini know it. But for a rural country like Italy in '30 the budget for defense upgrade are so poor that it can concentrate his resource on few objectives. High Admirals choose, with stupidity, that the priority is the construction of battleships.
    After attack to battleship in Taranto base by English torpedo bomber and the disastrous battle of Matapan in 1941 the same high admirals must admit that Navy needs too much aircraft carrier. In real the problem of Navy was his total lack of any type of coordination with Air Force. In 1942/1943 the renewed collaboration with Italian and Nazi Air Force prove that airplanes from Sicily and Greece can be an invaluable wepon against English Meditteranean Fleet, without using aircraft carrier. This obviosly is true only in Meditteranean theatre of operation.
    Well, if you think about it wasnt that stupid, after all the close scenario of the mediterranean is not the best aircraft carrier scenario and the italians have no previous experience with carriers, not even in ww1.

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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    Hey, nice specs and info.

    What would be the reasoning behind putting the 3 12'' guns in the middle of the Andrea Doria?

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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    Thanks for the link Deaf Smith.

    Well, if you think about it wasnt that stupid, after all the close scenario of the mediterranean is not the best aircraft carrier scenario and the italians have no previous experience with carriers, not even in ww1.
    As i wrote, i suggest that for particular conditions (Italy lost war and never go outside his sea, except for Betasom and get help of Nazi Air Force) the choice is correct.
    But when it was taken:
    - if Italy beat UK Royal Meditteranean Fleet it means that must go on oceans to keep fighting with UK Home Fleet;
    - Mussolin give order to create an oceanic fleet;
    - no one knows that German can give help;
    - Italian admirals think that they can use same tactic (bombing while flying in orizontal line from high altitude) with success while foreign and Italians aviators don't agree with it;
    For me it was a mistake. But for Italy enter at war in 1941 was a big mistake. Like Germany, new fleet will be finished for 1946.

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Hey, nice specs and info.
    What would be the reasoning behind putting the 3 12'' guns in the middle of the Andrea Doria?
    Thanks. Andrea Doria class was a WWI era battleship. In these times was not so uncommon this type of structure or similar (guns that are in turrets that cannot freely rotate). I must admitt that i don't know exactly why, perhaps it's a way to have a greater number of guns.
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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    So where were the bridge and other accommodations and planning rooms? In the bottom of the Ship?

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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    Yes. But remember two facts:
    - using them in Medditeranean means short trip so crew can afford to have cramped spaces;
    - for modern standard the accomodations are too much spartan and little;
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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    Di Giussano class


    This class of light cruiser is like their heavy counterpart fast but without a sufficient armor.

    Class Name: Di Giussano
    Displacement: (max) 7.000 tonn
    Lenght: 169 m
    Beam: 15.5 m
    Draught: 5.3 m
    Propulsion: 6 Yarrow boilers, 2 turbines Parson with total 95.000 hp on 2 shafts
    Speed: (max) 37 knots
    Range: 3800 nautic miles @ 16 knots
    Armament: 8 cannons 152/52 (main anti ship)
    6 cannons 100/47 (dual use)
    8 cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    8 heavy machine gun 13.2/76 (anti aircraft)
    4 torpedo launchers 533 mm (anti ship)
    96 naval mines (anti ship)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 40 mm
    (max) Vertical 25 mm
    (max) Turrets 25 mm
    (max) Barbettes 25 mm
    (max) Main turrets 40 mm
    Men: 521
    Aircraf: 2 launched from a catapult in the middle of ship


    Diaz class


    A slightly better version of Di Giussano class. Still with not sufficient armor to be effective in war.

    Class Name: Diaz
    Displacement: (max) 7.900 tonn
    Lenght: 169.3 m
    Beam: 15.5 m
    Draught: 5.5 m
    Propulsion: 6 Yarrow boilers, 2 turbines Parson with total 95.000 hp on 2 shafts
    Speed: (max) 36.5 knots
    Range: 3088 nautic miles @ 16 knots, 2500 nautic miles @ 25 knots
    Armament: 8 cannons 152/52 (main anti ship)
    6 cannons 100/47 (dual use)
    8 cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    8 heavy machine gun 13.2/76 (anti aircraft)
    4 torpedo launchers 533 mm (anti ship)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 70 mm
    (max) Vertical 42 mm
    (max) Turrets 40 mm
    (max) Barbettes 20 mm
    (max) Main turrets 70 mm
    Men: 544
    Aircraf: 2 launched from a catapult in the middle of ship


    Montecuccoli class


    The first truly capable class of light cruiser. This class has a sufficient level of armored protecion.

    Class Name: Montecuccoli
    Displacement: (max) 8.995 tonn
    Lenght: 182.2 m
    Beam: 16.6 m
    Draught: 6 m
    Propulsion: 6 Yarrow boilers, 2 turbines Parson with total 106.000 hp on 2 shafts
    Speed: (max) 37 knots
    Range: 4152 nautic miles @ 18 knots
    Armament: 8 cannons 152/55 (main anti ship)
    6 cannons 100/47 (dual use)
    8 cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    8 heavy machine gun 13.2/76 (anti aircraft)
    8 torpedo launchers 533 mm (anti ship)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 30 mm
    (max) Vertical 85 mm
    (max) Turrets 70 mm
    (max) Barbettes 70 mm
    (max) Main turrets 100 mm
    Men: 638
    Aircraf: 2 launched from a catapult in the middle of ship


    Duca d'Aosta class


    Better then Montecuccoli class. Slower but well procted.

    Class Name: Duca d'Aosta
    Displacement: (max) 10.834 tonn
    Lenght: 187 m
    Beam: 17.5 m
    Draught: 6.5 m
    Propulsion: 6 Yarrow boilers, 2 turbines Parson with total 110.000 hp on 2 shafts
    Speed: (max) 36.5 knots
    Range: 3900 nautic miles @ 14 knots
    Armament: 8 cannons 152/53 (main anti ship)
    6 cannons 100/47 (dual use)
    8 cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    12 heavy machine gun 13.2/76 (anti aircraft)
    6 torpedo launchers 533 mm (anti ship)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 35 mm
    (max) Vertical 105 mm
    (max) Turrets 100 mm
    (max) Barbettes 100 mm
    (max) Main turrets 100 mm
    Men: 694
    Aircraf: 3 launched from a catapult in the middle of ship


    Duca degli Abruzzi class


    The best ligh cruiser class produced by Italy. This class was used after 1943 by Allies in South Atlantic as escort. Soviet Navy uses it until 1957. Slower than other class it counts on superior weapons and armor to beat his opponents.

    Class Name: Duca degli Abruzzi
    Displacement: (max) 11.262 tonn
    Lenght: 187 m
    Beam: 18.9 m
    Draught: 6.8 m
    Propulsion: 8 Yarrow boilers, 2 turbines Parson with total 100.000 hp on 2 shafts
    Speed: (max) 35 knots
    Range: 4125 nautic miles @ 13 knots
    Armament: 10 cannons 152/55 (main anti ship)
    8 cannons 100/47 (dual use)
    8 cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    10 heavy machine gun 13.2/76 (anti aircraft)
    6 torpedo launchers 533 mm (anti ship)
    6 rocket launcher (anti submarine)
    Armor: (max) Horizontal 65 mm
    (max) Vertical 100 + 30 mm
    (max) Turrets 135 mm
    (max) Barbettes 135 mm
    (max) Main turrets 140 mm
    Men: 892
    Aircraf: 4 launched from two catapults in the middle of ship


    Capitani Romani class


    Not truly a light cruiser, with his small sizes it was more similar to heavy destroyer than light cruiser. It rely only on his speed to dodge his opponents: with his small size it cannot has the armor needed to sustain damage from heavy guns. It was used by Italy and French after 1945.

    Class Name: Capitani Romani
    Displacement: (max) 5.510 tonn
    Lenght: 14.2 m
    Beam: 14.4 m
    Draught: 4.1 m
    Propulsion: 4 Yarrow boilers with total 100.000 hp on 2 shafts
    Speed: (max) 43 knots
    Range: 4.350 nautic miles @ 18 knots
    Armament: 8 cannons 135/45 (main anti ship)
    8 cannons 37/54 (anti aircraft)
    8 cannons 20/65 (anti aircraft)
    8 torpedo launchers 533 mm (anti ship)
    70 naval mines (anti ship)
    Men: 418
    Last edited by burp; 09-13-2010 at 10:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Cruisers & Battleships.

    Quote Originally Posted by burp View Post
    Yes. But remember two facts:
    - using them in Medditeranean means short trip so crew can afford to have cramped spaces;
    - for modern standard the accomodations are too much spartan and little;
    True, but what about places such as the planning room or the mess hall?

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