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Rape, racism, censorship & injustice? - Page 2
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Thread: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    I don't know what you mean by "western propaganda." I don't think anyone contending that the Red Army was an "army of rapists" is seriously taken in actual learned circles
    That what exactly the werstern propoganda imposed , the RA is army of rapist #1, however at the same time persistently ignored the fact more civils died becouse of allied bombs then from all sort of rapists. I'ts calls the propogand - to state the events on profitable light. For sake of true ,the RA did the same .

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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Well, firstly, I think the association of black U.S. soldiers in WWII had more to do with Europe. Secondly, only limited numbers of then "negro" soldiers were allowed to be assigned to combat units and the majority were rear echelon support. I think one of the themes that emerges here is that the majority of rapists in WWII armies were follow-on rear echelon soldiers and not the front line infantry--who tended to be more disciplined and had less time on their hands. The problem in Japan seems to have been marine and army infantry who had little to do, and some of the units mentioned probably would have been all white such as the paratroopers. There may have been in fact a double standard in Gen. MacArthur's "justice" system where "negros" were singled out and tended to be executed more often. But since most of this was hidden under Mac's censorship, we'll never know for sure what took place...

    Svoboda states:

    According to my uncle, most of the serious offenders in the 8th Army stockade were black. Alice Kaplan writes in The Interpreter, a book that discusses the discrepancies in sentencing between black and white servicemen convicted of rape in the European theater, that black troops who made up 8.5 percent of the armed forces during WWII were accused of committing 79 percent of all capital crimes.44 Lilly reports that while 57% of the soldiers accused of sexual offenses in Europe were white, most of the convicted were black, some 66%.45 “It is quite possible that the complaints against black soldiers were those the army selected to record, thus indirectly creating an incomplete and inaccurate account,” he writes.46 They were also more likely to be tried because of commander prejudice, many commanders being Southerners.47 Although white and black soldiers were convicted of rape in both theaters during the war, only black servicemen were executed for this crime. Racial prejudice at a time when lynching was frequent in civilian life in the south and the military remained segregated is censorship’s “elephant in the room.”
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 08-19-2010 at 07:42 AM.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    ....The crime tendency of person is depend of its cultural and educational level.
    I would place more emphasis on the cultural part here than educational. There were many well-educated Nazi's that lacked any sense of humanity. In my opinion, education does very little, if anything, to fix problems concerning crimes. A very popular case in 1920s Chicago ..... two high society .... well-educated ..... extremely smart young men killed a young boy just cause they were sure they could get away with it (Leopold & Loeb). This is 1 of (too many) examples I could discuss about education and crime. As far as the Russian Army in WW2 is concerned ...... I would suggest a lack of skilled leaders is a good place to start.

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  4. #19
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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Sandworm View Post
    I would place more emphasis on the cultural part here than educational.
    There were many well-educated Nazi's that lacked any sense of humanity. In my opinion, education does very little, if anything, to fix problems concerning crimes.
    That is just proves the contr-point, Gen.
    The lack of humanity of some hight-cultural nazis or japanese military bosses were determined by exactly their .. evil education ( namely race-hate theories which were the essential part of their education).But the another cases , such as endless ethnic genocide among non-educated African tribes is explained pure by their culture. Just like the hate of Muslim Radicals which usially has read nothing in life except Koran - this is their culture.
    Culture ,in case if education absent, plays a major role in Crime tendency of man.
    But this is all is just peronal speculation
    The scince Anthropological criminology is studying this matter pretty effective.
    Ever heard about Cesare Lombroso?
    This is the italian criminologists who has introduced the term Degeneracy ,a nd proved how the degeneracy affectes to man's crime tendency. Degeneracy , he advocated, depend on external physical defects and man's insanity.
    This is a complex theory and you may to read more about it in net.
    A very popular case in 1920s Chicago ..... two high society .... well-educated ..... extremely smart young men killed a young boy just cause they were sure they could get away with it (Leopold & Loeb). This is 1 of (too many) examples I could discuss about education and crime.
    Well i suggest this exaclty dr Lombroso's case
    When absolutly externaly normal man suddenly commits the terrible crime- seacrh for his insane soul and degenerative genes.
    As far as the Russian Army in WW2 is concerned ...... I would suggest a lack of skilled leaders is a good place to start.
    The assumed skilled MakArthur , as pointed above, can't totally prevent crimes against civils.
    The Beast lives in every of us.We only do have the different cut-off level of the moral controll.
    the more educated mans usially has it higher.But no one will get the guaranty it never came out.
    Last edited by Chevan; 08-20-2010 at 02:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    .... There may have been in fact a double standard in Gen. MacArthur's "justice" system where "negros" were singled out and tended to be executed more often. But since most of this was hidden under Mac's censorship, we'll never know for sure what took place...
    :
    If we never know for sure, how can we to judge?
    I just curious, how many of blacks who were conscripted to US army had even finished the primary school?
    Although white and black soldiers were convicted of rape in both theaters during the war, only black servicemen were executed for this crime.
    i think befor to drop the race accusatuins we shall to discover all the fact of crimes - was it just rape or it was murder or robbing ( or group murder, or it was a Crime of Hate against the another race). The punishment obviously should depend on that fact.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    That is just proves the contr-point, Gen.
    The lack of humanity of some hight-cultural nazis or japanese military bosses were determined by exactly their .. evil education ( namely race-hate theories which were the essential part of their education).But the another cases , such as endless ethnic genocide among non-educated African tribes is explained pure by their culture....
    That is an interesting statement, as the first major genocide in Africa recorded was conducted by educated white Europeans during the Age of Imperialism. Specifically, Belgian King Leopold's "rape of the Congo" in which his "protectorate" was savagely ruled and guarded by his Military Police as they murdered, raped, and maimed the local populace for decades. No one is sure of the numbers, but I think something between 600,000 and well over one million Congolese died. But then, some would argue that calling the victims "Congolese" would be an added insult since no nation known as "the Congo" existed there prior to European colonialism and its habitation as a colonial space, which is actually the greatest problem in Africa--the arbitrary creation of (multi) nation-states where competing tribes and ethnicities were paired together within borders with no natural barriers setting them up for decades of instability and infighting.

    And as for your statement, I'm pretty sure white Western Europeans, North Americans, and Eastern European slavs were much more effective and killing millions of people than black Africans ever were...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 08-20-2010 at 08:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Secondly, only limited numbers of then "negro" soldiers were allowed to be assigned to combat units and the majority were rear echelon support. I think one of the themes that emerges here is that the majority of rapists in WWII armies were follow-on rear echelon soldiers and not the front line infantry--who tended to be more disciplined and had less time on their hands. The problem in Japan seems to have been marine and army infantry who had little to do, and some of the units mentioned probably would have been all white such as the paratroopers.
    Perhaps it might be more a case of some of the rear echelon troops during the active phase of a war, as with the rear echelon in France in 1944 while the relatively distant front was still hot and at times fluid, having the time and opportunity to engage in rape, looting etc, and then some of the fighting troops used as occupation troops after the war having the time and opportunity to do the same.

    Then again, the nominal fighting troops in an occupation might not always have been those who had a great deal of combat experience but might be Johnny Come Lately reinforcements lacking the discipline of combat soldiers.

    Or maybe they were combat soldiers who were more ruthless and efficient than rear echelon troops in acts of violence.

    I suspect it was probably a combination of all of the above, for the small proportion who offended.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 08-20-2010 at 09:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    That is an interesting statement, as the first major genocide in Africa recorded was conducted by educated white Europeans during the Age of Imperialism.
    Noway. it was first RECORDED and documented genocide in Africa. But it's pretty naive to think it was FIRST majore genocide in Africa or in America.Seen the Mal Gibbson's "Apocalipto"? The ethnic and religious genocide was a regular for the all the ancient tribes ( including our european prehistoric ancestors).
    And as for your statement, I'm pretty sure white Western Europeans, North Americans, and Eastern European slavs were much more effective and killing millions of people than black Africans ever were...
    All those speculations don't justify the extremally low level of culture and education ( and hence strong mutual ethnic hate) of different African tribes today.
    Actualty whites are superior in mass killing of peoples, however, we don't kill each other ALL the time..
    Last edited by Chevan; 08-25-2010 at 01:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Noway. it was first RECORDED and documented genocide in Africa. But it's pretty naive to think it was FIRST majore genocide in Africa or in America.Seen the Mal Gibbson's "Apocalipto"? The ethnic and religious genocide was a regular for the all the ancient tribes ( including our european prehistoric ancestors).
    Of course. But genocide without some form or organized, systemic structure is very difficult to carry out. Certainly mass killing of populations for various goals (democide might be a better term for this?) has been done pre-history; most cultures have engaged in what they may later perceived and record to be a defensive operation that may have been more of an aggressive war of annihilation of their weaker enemies.

    I think there's a theory that the modern man may have decimated the neanderthals in what amounted to a democide for control of Europe...

    All those speculations don't justify the extremally low level of culture and education ( and hence strong mutual ethnic hate) of different African tribes today.
    Actualty whites are superior in mass killing of peoples, however, we don't kill each other ALL the time..
    The low level of culture is a bastardized mix of local and Euro traditions and most of the educated Africans flee to the West making it easier for the tin-pot *****s like Mugabe to take over or retain control. And if you're speaking of Rwanda, that is a classic example of a patchwork country arbitrarily created where none existed, and forcing two competing tribes into a coexistence resulting in decades of instability...

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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    A feature common to all racially exterminating and racially brutal cultures is a dominant group which demonises the victim group and or renders it sub-human or otherwise unworthy of consideration (e.g. nowadays infidels by some extremist Muslim groups being everyone, including other Muslims, who don't toe their extremist line, and some of their opponents who respond with a similarly atttitude).

    With the possible exceptions of a few groups such as Buddhists and Quakers, the rest have to a greater or lesser degree probably participated in some form of extermination of or racial brutality towards what they see as lesser people and peoples at some point in their history, and probably not all that far in the past.
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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Of course there have always been rivalries between competing ethnicities in Africa. So, why wouldn't arbitrary groupings of them into nation states in itself result in violence, chaos, and fundamental instability? You only have to look at the nation states of Rwanda, Burundi, and the current long war in the Congo to see that. Or perhaps what too place in the former Yugoslavia...
    But to what extent is recent history a consequence of things beyond arbitrary borders imposed upon those places and peoples by invading imperial and or colonial powers?

    For example, Yugoslavia, and Greece and Cyprus, reflect the consequences of Ottoman Islamic rule, in much the same way that Northern Ireland reflects the consequences of English Protestant rule.

    Once the external ruler leaves the locals tend to resent and perhaps revolt against (a) the locals who are seen as collaborators or beneficiaries of the invaders and (b) the remnants of the invader population, as both (a) and (b) usually retain power and privilege until dispossessed by the much more numerous but less powerful and less privileged local masses.
    ..
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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    But to what extent is recent history a consequence of things beyond arbitrary borders imposed upon those places and peoples by invading imperial and or colonial powers?

    For example, Yugoslavia, and Greece and Cyprus, reflect the consequences of Ottoman Islamic rule, in much the same way that Northern Ireland reflects the consequences of English Protestant rule.
    But Yugoslavia, or the recent conflict in, is not directly the result of Ottoman rule as I believe the opening salvos of that conflict were between the Catholic Croats and Orthodox (but ostensibly pseudo-Socialist) Serbian dominated" Yugoslav federal state. Northern Ireland is a bit more complex as there is English protestantism--and then there is Scottish Presbyterianism. And one could argue that the Irish Republic still reflects some of the legacy of English rule as the UK reflects some of the legacy of Saxon rule...

    Once the external ruler leaves the locals tend to resent and perhaps revolt against (a) the locals who are seen as collaborators or beneficiaries of the invaders and (b) the remnants of the invader population, as both (a) and (b) usually retain power and privilege until dispossessed by the much more numerous but less powerful and less privileged local masses.
    I concur. But one can argue that (Northern) Ireland is more similar to many of the former Soviet republics in that an external ethnic populace that posed problem for the ruling classes was essentially "planted" as a form of counterinsurgency and "pacification" (i.e. the Scots-Irish). But I think one can also take the opposite view that in some cases the minority left behind by the colonizers can often maintain an ascendant status economically and remain influential. Ireland is sort of the ideal example as the "Anglo-Irish (protestants) have tended to do very well and typically have had a higher standard of living until very recent times of the "Irish Tiger" economy....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard View Post
    The statement "but from there either warfare or competition for resources must have been key...." is hardly evidence that anyone holds a theory that modern humans practiced genocide on their more primitive cousins. The article is sensationalist and suggests a "genocide" theory where none exists. To suggest there was competition between Neanderthals and modern humans, and even to suggest, by using the term "warfare", it may have turned violent at times, does not mean anyone believes such competition constituted an attempt by modern humans to deliberately exterminate Neanderthals. The author is clearly using the suggestion of "genocide" to sell his article.
    That's your opinion. But nevertheless, it is in fact a theory--and one certainly not based on a single NY Times article. You can disagree with it all you want, but there are a number of proponents to the theory that Modern Man largely actively and through competition, drove Neanderthals to an early extinction. But yes, it is a controversial theory and there isn't any consensus...

    Because the cultures involved were already in serious conflict, and engaged in trying to eliminate each other long before Europeans superimposed their ideas of national structure on tribal society. It wasn't that the colonial boundaries changed anything for the tribal conflicts, made them more intense, or more frequent. In fact, an argument could be made that, in some cases, the imposition of colonial government actually dampened the conflicts by imposing the same laws, more or less impartially applied by the Europeans, on tribal societies. Of course, this wasn't the case in every situation. The current war in the Congo was not caused by colonial boundaries being imposed on geographic tribal structure, but by conflict over finite natural resources by small political elites within the tribes. These political elites use the long history of tribal animosity to promote their own selfish interests without regard for the larger implications.
    Actually, one can argue that European Imperialism exacerbated tribal and ethnic conflicts that existed prior. For instance, in King Leopold's Congo, Hutus and Tutsis were forced to carry ID cards stating their ethnicity even though the terms had largely lost much of their meaning in reference to cultural identity. And the laws "imposed" were hardly for the beneficiary of the colonized. And the current War in the Congo very much involves the Tutsi and Hutu identity, as various militias and state armies of both are among the belligerents. And some would say that the Congo War represents a modernist form of "Neocolonialism," in which local warlords have taken the place of Europeans and the demand for the metal coltan, for use in cell phones and computers, has become the precious resource for export the belligerents are all fighting over...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 08-26-2010 at 11:11 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    But Yugoslavia, or the recent conflict in, is not directly the result of Ottoman rule as I believe the opening salvos of that conflict were between the Catholic Croats and Orthodox (but ostensibly pseudo-Socialist) Serbian dominated" Yugoslav federal state.
    Why do you have to make a complicated situation even more complicated, when I was trying to keep it simple?

    I'd suggest that Ottoman rule, and its eventual decay after WWI, was crucial in developing many areas of recent and current conflict, from Yugoslavia to Greece to Cyprus to Israel, and that the collapse of the Ottomans allowed more local conflicts to rise up.

    You are certainly correct in identifying the Croat / Serb division along religious lines, which allowed some of the most appalling episodes during WWII and which are conveniently ignored in the West which beats its breast about the Nazis, but it had little influence on the wider world, beyond disgust to the few who knew or cared about it, then or now.

    However, the Ottoman loss of Palestine and the subsequent Jewish filling of that vacuum without any legitimacy recognised by local nations has been the focus of an enduring problem, but this is just another example of a more powerful group gaining ascendancy over a less powerful group, by whatever means, as did the various colonial powers before WWII. Except that after WWII the colonial powers generally lost their possessions while the invaders in Palestine consolidated their power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Northern Ireland is a bit more complex as there is English protestantism--and then there is Scottish Presbyterianism. And one could argue that the Irish Republic still reflects some of the legacy of English rule as the UK reflects some of the legacy of Saxon rule...
    Well, personally, I blame Boadicea.

    And the Danes, because if they'd got all the Danegeld there was to get out of Britain it would have been broke and just a Danish paddock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    I concur. But one can argue that (Northern) Ireland is more similar to many of the former Soviet republics in that an external ethnic populace that posed problem for the ruling classes was essentially "planted" as a form of counterinsurgency and "pacification" (i.e. the Scots-Irish). But I think one can also take the opposite view that in some cases the minority left behind by the colonizers can often maintain an ascendant status economically and remain influential. Ireland is sort of the ideal example as the "Anglo-Irish (protestants) have tended to do very well and typically have had a higher standard of living until very recent times of the "Irish Tiger" economy....
    The difference in comparing Northern Ireland plants with Soviet plants is about three centuries.

    The USSR came and went within about seventy years during the 20th century, but the British control of Northern, and for that matter most of, Ireland began in the 17th century and was not displaced until late in the 20th century.

    The difference in times allowed much greater entrenchment in the social, political and economic fabric in Ireland than it did in the USSR.
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    Default Re: Rape, racism, censorship & injustice?

    With regard to the Planters in Ireland the majority came from the west coast of Scotland.This area had been settled by tribes from Northern Ireland several centuries beforehand,so it may be argued(perhaps feebly)that they were irishmen returning home.

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