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Thread: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

  1. #16
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    But they would need oil for ships,aircraft,lubricants for all sorts of weapons and for the war industry.
    An adequate supply of oil is essential for any country,the more so if they have a large war machine engaged in combat.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    But they would need oil for ships,aircraft,lubricants for all sorts of weapons and for the war industry.
    An adequate supply of oil is essential for any country,the more so if they have a large war machine engaged in combat.
    But back then, they are lacking of planes, ships and vehicles. They rely on their Infantry back in Okinawa. Much of their Tanks and Planes were thrown into China and gone with the wind.
    Being a Hero is really hard to say but easy to do. But being a Soldier less than a Hero is easy to say but hard to do.It's a full crap! Nobody asks Soldiers to be Heroes! -Lt.Col.Chesty Puller

  3. #18
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Many Thanks Wizard.
    Your Post #12 clarifies much, and adds to what I'd read over the years.
    I had no awareness of formalised co-operation beyond that I mentioned, and had considered the source (a 1970's economic history text) to be of at times dubious value.

    I fully agree the respective geographic locations of German and Japan were a significant obstacle and detriment to meaningful co-operation between the two nations, regardless of the war being ongoing.

    As to the resources issue: I've always held the view that both nations were adequately resourced for a short-term campaign (say 30 months) but were certainly not going to be able to maintain a long-term campaign, as was eventually the case/circumstance each was facing.

    Kind and Respectful Regards, Wizard, Uyraell.
    Last edited by Uyraell; 08-07-2010 at 01:21 AM. Reason: t

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
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    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
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  4. #19
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    Lacking of oil is not Japan's real problem because they don't have much vehicle used in the war. I think they lack the men and planes and even inter-connected territories to supply their troops fighting overseas. In fact, all of their troops were fighting overseas.
    Lack of oil was essentially the reason Japan went to war in the first place.

    While it is true the Japanese Army was not motorized to any great extent, it did use oil (refined into gasoline) for what motorized forces it had and for it's aircraft. The Imperial Japanese Navy consumed a lot of oil for it's aircraft and ships. Beginning in mid-1942, the IJN experienced shortages of oil in places like Truk and Rabaul which hampered it's operations against the USN in the South Pacific. Theoretically, the Japanese had solved their oil problem with the seizure of the NEI, which, in 1941, produced about 2.8 % of the world's crude oil. In practice, the former Dutch oil fields were not brought back into production as quickly as the Japanese had planned, and there was a shortage of tankers to move the crude oil to Japan for refining, and thence back out to the operational areas in the Pacific. The American submarine offensive worsened the situation when it began attacking tankers as a priority. By mid-1944, the oil situation was so bad for Japan that it restricted fleet operations to certain areas where oil was relatively plentiful. At about the same time, air operations, including the training of new pilots, was restricted because there was no longer enough aviation fuel to satisfy the demand for both combat operations and training operations. Japan actually had more planes than qualified pilots in late 1944, early 1945 because the pilot training programs had been truncated for lack of fuel.

    The other unsolvable problem Japan faced was a severe shortage of logistical shipping, and this got worse as the US submarine campaign gained traction. Japan never had sufficient merchant bottoms to both supply it's overseas garrisons and satisfy the demand of it's war industries for raw materials. Besides insufficient tankers to move adequate amounts of oil, Japan lacked sufficient merchant carriers in every category. Naval ships returning to Japan from the Southern Resources Area carried deck cargoes of every conceivable commodity from rubber to rice to tin and other ores; even hospital ships, in violation of international law, were pressed into service to carry ammo and provisions when they were outbound from Japan, and rubber, rice, bauxite, and coal when they were inbound. At least one Japanese "hospital" ship was stopped by US naval forces and found to be carrying troops and commodities in violation of international conventions.
    Last edited by Wizard; 08-07-2010 at 01:55 AM. Reason: edited for spelling and syntax

  5. #20
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    But back then, they are lacking of planes, ships and vehicles. They rely on their Infantry back in Okinawa. Much of their Tanks and Planes were thrown into China and gone with the wind.
    I don't know where you are getting your information, but it is not correct.

    As late as October, 1944, the Japanese had managed to mass over a thousand planes on Formosa and Luzon for the defense of the Philippines against MacArthur's invasion forces. At the battle of Leyte Gulf, the Japanese committed almost fifty ships, including seven battleships and five carriers (albeit with less than 100 planes). At Okinawa, in 1945, the Japanese managed over 3,000 aircraft sorties, both in kamikaze and conventional attacks. It was reliably estimated that the Japanese Navy and Army air forces would be able to throw somewhere between 10,000 and 12,000 aircraft into the defense of Kyushu during Operation Olympic.

    In China, Japanese ground forces were never defeated in any large battles, and most of the aircraft, tanks, and other motor vehicles, committed to the Chinese theater remained in operation until September, 1945, when they were surrendered to Allied authorities. The only exceptions were those mechanized units which lacked spare parts and/or fuel. In Manchuria, Japan retained several armored or mechanized divisions until August, 1945, when the Soviets attacked, and either destroyed or captured most Japanese forces in the very last weeks of war.

    Japan was not nearly as bereft of motorized units, aircraft, and ships as you seem to think. Oil and fuel was a major concern of the Japanese high command until the very last days of the war.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Post # 17

    jungleguerilla:

    Lack of oil is not Japan's problem?

    That's news to me, because almost the entire foundation of Japanese expansion into the South Pacific basin is to obtain and retain the NEI (nowadays Indonesia) oilfields, as direct result of the LACK of oil in the Home Islands.
    Japan went to war to secure oil, so I cannot see how a LACK of same is a non-issue for Japan.

    With gentle respect, I feel you may need to study the matter further.

    Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.
    Last edited by Uyraell; 08-07-2010 at 08:25 AM. Reason: Typo.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  7. #22
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Yep. I thought access to oil was one of the prime movers of the Japanese expansion into, and conquest of, the Pacific realm...

  8. #23
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    Lacking of oil is not Japan's real problem ...
    You couldn't be more wrong.

    Lack of oil was what started the war.

    Japan got almost all of its oil from the US before the US imposed an oil embargo in 1941, which cut off almost all of Japan's oil imports.

    This left the IJN with oil reserves which would run out with normal usage in a couple of years.

    Once the IJN was out of oil, the US would control the Pacific and Japan would be neutralised so far as its ambitions outside China were concerned. It would also lack the ability to launch an attack.

    So, the solution was for Japan to seize the NEI oilfields well before its oil reserves ran out so it could pursue its expansionist ambitions without regard to the loss of oil from the US.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  9. #24
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    You couldn't be more wrong.

    Lack of oil was what started the war.

    Japan got almost all of its oil from the US before the US imposed an oil embargo in 1941, which cut off almost all of Japan's oil imports.

    This left the IJN with oil reserves which would run out with normal usage in a couple of years.

    Once the IJN was out of oil, the US would control the Pacific and Japan would be neutralised so far as its ambitions outside China were concerned. It would also lack the ability to launch an attack.

    So, the solution was for Japan to seize the NEI oilfields well before its oil reserves ran out so it could pursue its expansionist ambitions without regard to the loss of oil from the US.
    I stand corrected, sorry for the unresearched facts there guys. That's why I ask you to enlighten me.
    Being a Hero is really hard to say but easy to do. But being a Soldier less than a Hero is easy to say but hard to do.It's a full crap! Nobody asks Soldiers to be Heroes! -Lt.Col.Chesty Puller

  10. #25
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    Default Re: After the PAcific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    When they faced each other in Manchuria back in 1945, I believe that the Japanese Soldiers inflicted much heavier casualties against The Soviets. It is because the Japs will fight to the death and they are much experienced and battle-hardened even if the Soviets have the Armor, Planes and Resources.
    No, the Soviet Manchurian campaign is one of the most crushing victories you can find, EVER. Enormous hordes of Japanese surrendered after being subjected to what was essentially an extremely warhardened Soviet army using shock and mobility warfare of similar style with that of Germany in the early years of WWII.
    The Japanese defeat was total, extreme and about as fast as the Soviet attack could effectively move.

    The Manchurian campaign is still used by many officer academies as a showcase on a near perfect large scale offensive. It managed to retain almost total strategic surprise, it completely disrupted enemy resistance, it shocked the enemy into surrendering in such scale that wasnt seen again until the 2nd and 3rd Gulf wars, and it managed to maintain a functional logistics to a degree that has never happened again since(and thats really exceptional to say the least)...etc etc...

  11. #26
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    Default Re: After the PAcific Islands... what would be next?

    As for a Japanese attack on the USSR

    ... the Japanese had a non-agression treaty with the USSR, which both sides honored until it lapsed in 1945. Then the Russians attacked.

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