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Thread: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

  1. #1
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    Default After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    If Japan conquered all of the Pacific Islands and soem asian countries, what would be next?

    I think they were going to link up with the Germans at Iraq. And after that Japan would be helping the Germans on Air support in the Eastern front. And after it, the Japs will be invading Eastern Russia. And encircling Moscow. What do you think? Post your comments now!
    Being a Hero is really hard to say but easy to do. But being a Soldier less than a Hero is easy to say but hard to do.It's a full crap! Nobody asks Soldiers to be Heroes! -Lt.Col.Chesty Puller

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    Default Re: After the PAcific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    If Japan conquered all of the Pacific Islands and soem asian countries, what would be next?
    India and Australia were reserved for future decision in March 1942.

    India was more attractive for its own resources; proximity to Japan and its conquests in SE Asia and Burma; and as a route to Middle East oilfields, but it required a victory in Burma and then one in India, neither of which happened.

    Australia, although it had some useful resources which Japan had attempted to garner by commercial deals before the war, was probably of less importance in itself than India but much more important as a potential base for America to strike back at Japan. America and its industrial and military might posed a far greater risk to Japan based in its belly in Australia and in its face in Hawaii than Britain did based in India and Colombo as little more than a holding force.

    The American build-up in Australia in 1942 made cutting the sea routes from America to Australia more important for Japan, which was part of the reason for Guadalcanal

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    I think they were going to link up with the Germans at Iraq. And after that Japan would be helping the Germans on Air support in the Eastern front. And after it, the Japs will be invading Eastern Russia. And encircling Moscow. What do you think? Post your comments now!
    Not in a fit.

    Japan lacked the production capacity and pilot training capacity to replace its own losses in the Pacific. Indeed, after its initial successes at PH and a draw in the Coral Sea it went steadily backwards after Midway. There wouldn't have been any Japanese planes helping Germany anywhere.

    As for a Japanese attack on the USSR, Japan and the Soviets faced each other with significant forces on the Manchurian border for the whole war with Japan lacking the strength and will to attack and the knowledge after Nomonhan that the Soviets would almost certainly beat them again. As indeed they did in the final days of the war, albeit hugely reinforced by the transfer of Soviet troops released by the victory against Germany.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
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    Default Re: After the PAcific Islands... what would be next?

    As for a Japanese attack on the USSR, Japan and the Soviets faced each other with significant forces on the Manchurian border for the whole war with Japan lacking the strength and will to attack and the knowledge after Nomonhan that the Soviets would almost certainly beat them again. As indeed they did in the final days of the war, albeit hugely reinforced by the transfer of Soviet troops released by the victory against Germany.
    When they faced each other in Manchuria back in 1945, I believe that the Japanese Soldiers inflicted much heavier casualties against The Soviets. It is because the Japs will fight to the death and they are much experienced and battle-hardened even if the Soviets have the Armor, Planes and Resources.
    Being a Hero is really hard to say but easy to do. But being a Soldier less than a Hero is easy to say but hard to do.It's a full crap! Nobody asks Soldiers to be Heroes! -Lt.Col.Chesty Puller

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    Default Re: After the PAcific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    When they faced each other in Manchuria back in 1945, I believe that the Japanese Soldiers inflicted much heavier casualties against The Soviets.
    That certainly wasn't reflected in the very rapid and crushing advances by the Soviets.
    ..
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    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: After the PAcific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    When they faced each other in Manchuria back in 1945, I believe that the Japanese Soldiers inflicted much heavier casualties against The Soviets. It is because the Japs will fight to the death and they are much experienced and battle-hardened even if the Soviets have the Armor, Planes and Resources.
    I think you need to read up a bit on "August Storm." The already seriously weakened Japanese fell into a catatonic shock when faced with the massive firepower and mobile forces of the Red Army in open terrain...

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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    ....I think they were going to link up with the Germans at Iraq. And after that Japan would be helping the Germans on Air support in the Eastern front. And after it, the Japs will be invading Eastern Russia. And encircling Moscow. What do you think? Post your comments now!
    The Japanese simply weren't interested in helping Germany with it's strategic objectives, nor did they have the aircraft or other military resources to spare from the Pacific Theater and China. It's pure fantasy to think that Japan and Germany could have ever "linked up" anywhere, or that they were interested in trying. If you study the Japanese foreign policy papers issued in the 1930's, you will see that they are focused almost exclusively on China, Southeast Asia, Oceania, Manchuria, and Soviet Siberia. Even the Japanese realized that India, Iraq, and points west were beyond their reach.

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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Wizard, was it not the case that the only co-operational agreement between Japan and Germany outside of technology issues was a joint Trade Co-operative at Shanghai?
    If I recall it rightly, this was to be broadly based on a 1937 agreement of joint trade interests between the two governments.
    I've a memory of reading such when I was about 15, but have not bothered following that up since, in research.

    Like you, I have no information at all that either government had any conception of joint strategic goals.
    In fact, the contrary may be said to apply: each agreed to recognise each-other's "Sphere of influence" and conduct both trade and foreign policy accordingly.
    IIRC, that's about as far as any future planning of any nature went or progressed. Which tends to tie-in to your posting above.

    Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Like you, I have no information at all that either government had any conception of joint strategic goals.
    In fact, the contrary may be said to apply: each agreed to recognise each-other's "Sphere of influence" and conduct both trade and foreign policy accordingly.
    IIRC, that's about as far as any future planning of any nature went or progressed. Which tends to tie-in to your posting above.
    I sure know that if the Allies lost the war, Japan and Germany would be hateful enemies because their goal was too take over the world, and they don't want to share it to any country.
    Being a Hero is really hard to say but easy to do. But being a Soldier less than a Hero is easy to say but hard to do.It's a full crap! Nobody asks Soldiers to be Heroes! -Lt.Col.Chesty Puller

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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    I sure know that if the Allies lost the war, Japan and Germany would be hateful enemies because their goal was too take over the world, and they don't want to share it to any country.
    Japan never had any ambition to take over the world. Siberia was the only definite main target it didn't take. India and Australia (and probably by necessary implication New Zealand) were long-term targets but no firm plans were ever made to invade them.

    Japan couldn't have cared less what Germany did outside those areas, while Germany had no real interest in the Pacific.
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    India and Australia (and probably by necessary implication New Zealand) were long-term targets but no firm plans were ever made to invade them.
    I don't know what came to the Jap's mind to take over Australia. They can't even take China and many men are still fighting there, they have no more man Power left to invade Australia I think?
    Being a Hero is really hard to say but easy to do. But being a Soldier less than a Hero is easy to say but hard to do.It's a full crap! Nobody asks Soldiers to be Heroes! -Lt.Col.Chesty Puller

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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by jungleguerilla View Post
    I don't know what came to the Jap's mind to take over Australia. They can't even take China and many men are still fighting there, they have no more man Power left to invade Australia I think?
    Read this: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...sion-Australia
    ..
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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uyraell View Post
    Wizard, was it not the case that the only co-operational agreement between Japan and Germany outside of technology issues was a joint Trade Co-operative at Shanghai?
    If I recall it rightly, this was to be broadly based on a 1937 agreement of joint trade interests between the two governments.
    I've a memory of reading such when I was about 15, but have not bothered following that up since, in research.

    Like you, I have no information at all that either government had any conception of joint strategic goals.
    In fact, the contrary may be said to apply: each agreed to recognise each-other's "Sphere of influence" and conduct both trade and foreign policy accordingly.
    IIRC, that's about as far as any future planning of any nature went or progressed. Which tends to tie-in to your posting above.

    Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.
    I am not aware of any actual trade agreement between Germany and Japan in the late 1930's, but there was an "Agreement for Cultural Cooperation between Japan and Germany" signed in November, 1939. I don't have the details, but it sounds like some sort of "feel-good" resolution without much practical effect. Nevertheless, Germany and Japan did engage in some trade, mostly after 1937, despite the difficulties of geographic distance, currency exchange problems, and diverging foreign policy distractions. Germany sold Japan machine tools, instrumentation, and other finished goods in exchange for commodities such as rubber, quinine, alloy metals and small quantities of silk. At first this trade was conducted by merchant ships, but after the outbreak of the European war, most was via the trans-Siberian railway through the Soviet Union. After 1941, what little trade was conducted between Germany and Japan was by blockade-runners, usually submarines.

    There was some cooperation between Germany and Japan in the area of military weapons; Germany selling Japan the plans and licenses to manufacture various German weapons and aircraft, and also a license to build and operate synthetic fuel plants. This did not amount to much since German manufacturing techniques were not suitable for Japanese industry and German weapons did not suit Japanese tactics.

    Overall Germany's strategic goals were aimed at conquering the Soviet Union while Japanese strategic goals involved the achievement of autarky by seizing what Japan called "The Southern Resources Area"; the two strategic visions did not mesh well. Germany hoped to use Japan as a military counter-weight to the US, at first deterring the US from meddling in the European war, and then, after Pearl Harbor, to keep the US from throwing it's full weight into the European war. Japan looked at Germany as the distraction necessary to keep the British Empire and the US occupied while Japan seized the European possessions in the Southern Resources Area.

    Neither Germany nor Japan, of course, had the military/economic/industrial power required to achieve their goals, so neither managed to attain their strategic aims, but between the summer of 1941, and the summer of 1942, it certainly appeared to observers that the Axis (Germany, Japan, and Italy) just might pull it off.

    There was an "Axis Military Council", the purpose of which was to "coordinate Axis military operations" with the aim of enabling joint strategy initiatives. But it was, in fact, little more than a cheer-leading team, and had no authority such as the British-US Joint Chiefs of Staff. Neither Hitler in Germany, nor the militarists in Japan, paid much attention to the Military Council's pronouncements

    In any case, the material situations of both countries pretty much excluded military cooperation even if either country had wished it. Germany was very effectively blockaded by the Royal Navy, had almost no access to vital materials, and was fully engaged after 1941 in a death struggle with the Soviet Union. Japan produced barely enough military material to maintain it's position in China and a limited area of the Pacific. Once it engaged the US in war, Japan could not afford to spare planes, ships, or troops, in any significant numbers outside of China and the Pacific. Both Germany and Japan were seriously short of logistical resources for the sort of global war in which they found themselves. Lack of oil, or any way to move sufficient quantities of fuel, seriously hampered their long range operations. Since their geographic separation was so great, this factor alone made real military cooperation impossible.

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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Where is that quoted from, I think I read it somewhere...

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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Where is that quoted from, I think I read it somewhere...
    If your referring to my post #12, you'll have to be more specific. I did not quote directly from any single source, the post reflects my general reading of historical secondary sources and research into original documents.

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    Default Re: After the Pacific Islands... what would be next?

    Lack of oil, or any way to move sufficient quantities of fuel, seriously hampered their long range operations. Since their geographic separation was so great, this factor alone made real military cooperation impossible.

    Lacking of oil is not Japan's real problem because they don't have much vehicle used in the war. I think they lack the men and planes and even inter-connected territories to supply their troops fighting overseas. In fact, all of their troops were fighting overseas.
    Being a Hero is really hard to say but easy to do. But being a Soldier less than a Hero is easy to say but hard to do.It's a full crap! Nobody asks Soldiers to be Heroes! -Lt.Col.Chesty Puller

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