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Thread: Not their finest moment

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by HOS Bandit View Post
    You can see the same video on utube that is not missing any crucial seconds, that one clearly shows the japanese pilot pulling a pin of a grenade and tucking it to his stomach.
    Got a link?

    I can't see a grenade in the version I linked. He puts his hand to his mouth but, as I mentioned above, the main Japanese grenade was initiated by impact and there is no sign of that.

    I have fired a .45 caliber into water, and it certainly makes no eruption in the water as shown in that clip.
    You mean that the second eruption didn't come from the .45?

    Or the first eruption, which for all I know could be a heavier weapon such as a 20mm cannon?
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by HOS Bandit View Post
    Just another anti-american posting. ..... But I have seen an ongoing bias in certain posters here
    Don't leave us wondering.

    Name them.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    ....I can't see a grenade in the version I linked. He puts his hand to his mouth but, as I mentioned above, the main Japanese grenade was initiated by impact and there is no sign of that.
    I can't see a grenade either, but the video isn't clear enough to rule out the presence of a small grenade in the man's hand.

    As for activating a grenade, the Japanese Type 23 grenade was a "pull" grenade, i.e. the fuse was activated by pulling on a short lanyard. The amount of pressure required was from 2.5 to 5 pounds which could easily be exerted by placing the lanyard ring in the mouth and pulling the grenade away from the body. The grenade was rather small, only 3.75 inches long and 2 inches in diameter, and easily concealed in a man's hand.

    See section "f" of the linked page; http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/ha...-grenades.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    You mean that the second eruption didn't come from the .45?

    Or the first eruption, which for all I know could be a heavier weapon such as a 20mm cannon?
    The plume of water that arises after the first explosion is clearly from some small arms projectile. However, the first disturbance in the water around the man's body does not appear to come from a projectile fired at the man; there is no characteristic plume of water that comes from a projectile entering the water's surface. It is much more consistent with an underwater explosion such as that produced by a grenade.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard View Post
    I can't see a grenade either, but the video isn't clear enough to rule out the presence of a small grenade in the man's hand.

    As for activating a grenade, the Japanese Type 23 grenade was a "pull" grenade, i.e. the fuse was activated by pulling on a short lanyard. The amount of pressure required was from 2.5 to 5 pounds which could easily be exerted by placing the lanyard ring in the mouth and pulling the grenade away from the body. The grenade was rather small, only 3.75 inches long and 2 inches in diameter, and easily concealed in a man's hand.

    See section "f" of the linked page; http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/ha...-grenades.html



    The plume of water that arises after the first explosion is clearly from some small arms projectile. However, the first disturbance in the water around the man's body does not appear to come from a projectile fired at the man; there is no characteristic plume of water that comes from a projectile entering the water's surface. It is much more consistent with an underwater explosion such as that produced by a grenade.
    I don't dispute any of that.

    My primary purpose in posting was to challenge the dogmatic post by HOS Bandit where he asserts that the video in my link 'clearly shows the japanese pilot pulling a pin of a grenade and tucking it to his stomach.' (my bold).

    It shows nothing of the sort.

    Too often the captions to or interpretations of photographs and film / video create beliefs which are mistaken or fraudulent interpretations of the picture, e.g. http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/p...false_caption/

    Your interpretation is probably correct, but the film is not of sufficient clarity to be sure that, for example, a grenade was not thrown from the ship at the man (who may or may not be a pilot) in the water. Or we could get into a whole lot of pointless ballistic debate about whether the first eruption is consistent with something else, such as a heavy calibre round hitting the man in the water from behind. I don't think it is, but equally I don't think it's satisfactory for dogmatic comments to go unchallenged when the evidence is ambivalent.

    My secondary purpose was to seek clarification of HOS Bandit's statement "I have fired a .45 caliber into water, and it certainly makes no eruption in the water as shown in that clip.". He seems to be saying that, on the basis of his experience in firing a .45 into water, the first eruption should not be attributed to the man on the ship who appears to have fired a pistol at the man in the water. Nobody has suggested it was caused by a .45 and such a view is not consistent with what is seen in the video as the second eruption seems to be attributable to the .45.

    My original impression of the video, which did not contemplate the grenade suicide, has been educated by the posts since I started the thread. HOS Bandit would benefit from an equally open mind.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 10-12-2010 at 07:17 AM.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    ....My original impression of the video, which did not contemplate the grenade suicide, has been educated by the posts since I started the thread. HOS Bandit would benefit from an equally open mind.
    Perhaps your mind is open to "education" but I wonder if you didn't jump to an unwarranted conclusion in titling the thread "Not their finest moment"?

    Wouldn't "What really happened?" have been more appropriate?

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard View Post
    Perhaps your mind is open to "education" but I wonder if you didn't jump to an unwarranted conclusion in titling the thread "Not their finest moment"?

    Wouldn't "What really happened?" have been more appropriate?
    With the benefit of hindsight, yes.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    It most certianly looks like an explosion under water. Don't know what happend but something went off and I didn't see a splash from someone throwing a grenade at him.

    Thanks for pointing that out guys, I didn't even notice!

    Deaf
    “We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand

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