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Thread: Not their finest moment

  1. #1
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    Default Not their finest moment

    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Its well known what the Japanese did in WW2 but that is no excuse for this total lack of basic humanity.
    It is surely every humans instinct to give aid to survivors even in wartime.

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by boyne_water View Post
    It is surely every humans instinct to give aid to survivors even in wartime.
    Perhaps not if they've been militarily trained, and often not if the survivors are seen as the enemy.

    The whole purpose of military training is to overcome any civilian notions which restrain us from killing other people.

    Add in the training and propaganda, which all sides used in WWII, which demonised the enemy and made him less than human and it's easier to understand the video.

    But for all we know from the poor quality video, it might have been that the man in the water was severely injured and that there was no hope of rescue, so it was a mercy killing. Not that it looked that way.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    I've seen this outtake in a TV documentary once saying the Japanese blows himself up with a handgrenade (and the US sailor just played it safe). Actually, shortly before the first blow you can see that the Japanese is reaching with one hand to his mouth which could mean he's pulling out the grenade's safety pin with his teeth.
    Last edited by flamethrowerguy; 07-15-2010 at 08:50 AM.
    "I just ran out of ammo. I will ram this one. Good bye, we'll meet in Valhalla." - Major Heinrich Ehrler, April 4, 1945

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by flamethrowerguy View Post
    Actually, shortly before the first blow you can see that the Japanese is reaching with one hand to his mouth which could mean he's pulling out the grenade's safety pin with his teeth.
    Unlikely.

    The Japanese grenade was fully armed by knocking it on something hard, such as the thrower's helmet.

    Method of arming. Withdraw the safety pin. The spring is then held at half compression by the brass cover. Give the head of the ignition tube a sharp blow, further compressing the spring and driving the striker on to the percussion cap. The fuse, with a delay of 4-5 seconds, is then ignited and the filling detonated.
    http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/t...-grenades.html

    The man in the water doesn't seem to have done anything consistent with arming a Japanese grenade, nor does he seem to have anything hard to knock it on.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 07-15-2010 at 07:22 PM.
    ..
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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Unlikely.

    The Japanese grenade was fully armed by knocking it on something hard, such as the thrower's helmet.

    http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/t...-grenades.html

    The man in the water doesn't seem to have done anything consistent with arming a Japanese grenade.
    Honestly I wouldn't know about the handling of Japanese handgrenades myself but I remember the narrator saying it was a shot-down Japanese pilot who wanted to avoid capture at all costs. Got to check if I can find the documentary somewhere (which could have been mistaken after all).
    Last edited by flamethrowerguy; 07-15-2010 at 07:44 PM.
    "I just ran out of ammo. I will ram this one. Good bye, we'll meet in Valhalla." - Major Heinrich Ehrler, April 4, 1945

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    FTG

    On reviewing the video many times I'm not sure whether it's continuous or whether a crucial second or few is missing between the foam in the water and the previous hand to mouth.

    It could be consistent with arming a grenade and holding it to his belly under the water.

    Maybe he had a different grenade to the type I had in mind which was used early in the war i.e. to 1942 early 1943. I don't know if they had a later version which didn't require the sharp knock to arm finally.

    Suicide by a grenade of a pilot or any Japanese serviceman would be at least as likely as being shot by any one of the Allies.
    ..
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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    This video has no context and therefore no conclusions can be made as to the exact circumstances which it briefly purports to show. There were documented occurrences of Japanese sailors and airmen who tried to kill their would-be rescuers. In some cases these attempts were successful, and Allied servicemen in the Pacific quickly adopted a general policy of extreme caution, including shooting survivors in the water who made any kind of suspicious moves.

    My father was a carrier pilot in the Pacific in 1942, and personally knew another pilot who was shot down over Iron Bottom Sound. While waiting for a boat from shore to rescue him, he noticed another pilot, a Japanese, in the water near him. After being picked up by a Higgins boat, this pilot directed the boat's crew over to the Japanese pilot and attempted to reach over the gunwale and pull him into the boat. As he was doing that, the Japanese pilot suddenly produced a pistol, put it to his rescuer's head and pulled the trigger. The pistol misfired, whereupon the Japanese put it to his own head and again pulled the trigger; again the pistol misfired. At that point one of the boat's crew clubbed the Japanese over the head with a boathook, rendering him unconscious. The crew then pulled him into the boat and he became a prsioner.

    Nothing in any of the accepted rules of war require servicemen to risk their lives to rescue, or take prisoner, enemy soldiers who appear to be helpless, but may, in fact, be concealing a weapon or explosive device. Many allied servicemen in the Pacific quite correctly decided to play it safe and shoot apparent Japanese survivors or simply leave them to their fates. Others occasionally risked their lives to demonstrate their compassion.

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Don't judge those guys until you've stood in their boots.

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    There are several recorded incidences of Japanese airmen throwing grenades, pistols, or using knives on would-be rescuers. Even a case on Okinawa where an old woman surrendering and throwing a U.S. grenade that killed a G.I. Not to mention many cases of surrendering Japanese soldiers throwing grenades and others playing dead only to rise and shoot G.I.s in the back.

    Plus little things like the Bataan Death March, the Burma Railroad where the Japanese worked many a U.S, British, Australian, and other captives to death, plus the beheading of captured American airmen, and on Guadalcanal a Japanese party faked surrender and murdered quite a few Marines.

    So forgive the U.S. Navy if they were skeptical the Japanese wanted to surrender. Safest recourse was to kill the Jap. Our people wanted to live, a lot of the Japanese wanted to die… and take a few with them if they could.
    “We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    @Deafsmith, agreed. I saw a few of that things in the 1st episode of The Pacific after the Battle of Alligator Creek.
    Being a Hero is really hard to say but easy to do. But being a Soldier less than a Hero is easy to say but hard to do.It's a full crap! Nobody asks Soldiers to be Heroes! -Lt.Col.Chesty Puller

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    But for all we know from the poor quality video, it might have been that the man in the water was severely injured and that there was no hope of rescue, so it was a mercy killing. Not that it looked that way.
    Hardly he was seriously injured coz he obviously was moving by hand befor were killed.
    It's quite cruel but we can't judge american crew coz we don't know the the details.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Have any of you watched the 'American Experience"?

    I strongly suggest you watch the 2 hour special, "Victory in the Pacific"

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexpe...films/pacific/

    When it's over, you will see why the Atomic Bomb was necessary. And you will see why Americans felt the Japanese would never surrender.

    Deaf
    “We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    You can see the same video on utube that is not missing any crucial seconds, that one clearly shows the japanese pilot pulling a pin of a grenade and tucking it to his stomach. I have fired a .45 caliber into water, and it certainly makes no eruption in the water as shown in that clip. Just another anti-american posting. I am not as polished and erudite as most of the other posters here. But I am also not an illiterate, chest thumping ugly american. But I have seen an ongoing bias in certain posters here, but when you get right down too it, that in a nutshell is what those demon GI's were fighting for, back in WW2, the right for someone to come on a site such as this, and speak their mind, no matter what the content.
    Za Dom Spremni

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    Default Re: Not their finest moment

    Quote Originally Posted by HOS Bandit View Post
    You can see the same video on utube that is not missing any crucial seconds, that one clearly shows the japanese pilot pulling a pin of a grenade and tucking it to his stomach. I have fired a .45 caliber into water, and it certainly makes no eruption in the water as shown in that clip. Just another anti-american posting. I am not as polished and erudite as most of the other posters here. But I am also not an illiterate, chest thumping ugly american. But I have seen an ongoing bias in certain posters here, but when you get right down too it, that in a nutshell is what those demon GI's were fighting for, back in WW2, the right for someone to come on a site such as this, and speak their mind, no matter what the content.
    This thread was originally started by Rising Sun and it was he who posted the link to the video clip. While I do not agree with him on everything he has posted or commented on, I certainly do not believe he is "anti-American". There are certain posters on the forum who do seem to have a biased view of American actions in WW II, but then if everybody held the same opinions about everything, there would be no point in having forums in the first place.

    I think Rising Sun posted the video clip in order to stimulate a discussion about such incidents in the Pacific war. My father was a carrier pilot in that war and he definitely saw instances of other Americans committing acts of which he was not very proud. But he also said it was that kind of war, and it was the Japanese who chose to fight it that way; the Americans saw no reason to disappoint them.

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