Türk porno yayini yapan http://www.smfairview.com ve http://www.idoproxy.com adli siteler rokettube videolarini da HD kalitede yayinlayacagini acikladi. Ayrica porno indir ozelligiyle de http://www.mysticinca.com adli porno sitesi devreye girdi.
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 24

Thread: Russian POWs

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    87

    Default Russian POWs

    I started this thread to discuss the fate of returning Russian POWs to the Soviet Union after capitivity in Germany..

    I have a question about reliability on the wikipedia page. It states that most returning POWs from Germany were sent to "filitration" camps where the vast majority were released. The break down wikipedia offers is 90 percent were cleared by 1944 and 8 were sent to Siberia to serve prison sentences.

    But what is confusing when you read accounts of the gulag "waves" and punishments of POWs after World War II in books such as "Gulag Archipelago" by Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "Third Reich at War" by Richard Evans (he states that the POWs weren't rehibilited until the 1990s), "Enemies of the state" by Donald Critchlow. When you read any of these books the POWs condemned were more than the stated amount by the wikipedia page:

    Soviet reprisals against former POWs:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...st_former_POWs

    I am confused by not only the literature that states that insinuates that "all" Soviet POWs were sent to gulags immediately after liberation, but other records that state otherwise. There are obviously two contradictory stories here, so I am wondering whether there is any reliable information detailing the fate of Russian POWs immediately after release from Nazi camps.

    Also, what are these "filitration camps" that are talked about? What did they entail?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Russia, Moscow
    Posts
    1,855

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kregs View Post
    ... so I am wondering whether there is any reliable information detailing the fate of Russian POWs immediately after release from Nazi camps.
    What would you take for "reliable information"?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Russia, Moscow
    Posts
    1,855

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Specially for you! Special price - you are my friend!
    http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showthre...432#post164432

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    87

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    Specially for you! Special price - you are my friend!
    http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showthre...432#post164432
    Interesting. It's also interesting to note that after Germany was defeated Russian POWs were still considered traitors to the Motherland.

    Also, it's interesting to note that he didn't deny the fact that POWs didn't lose all citizenship/status after the war, but were subjected to rounds of interrogations. But, one has to keep in mind that this was just one interrogator who happened to be in a good mood at that particular moment. IF not, poor guy would have served a sentence in siberia and/or had to put his parents through the same hell that destroyed the careers of many great men.

    I find it difficult to accept that a POW is automatically a traitor and needs to be hung, but hey surrendering to the enemy is in violation of No. 270. There's isn't any wiggle room through that rule.

    Thanks for the interview. I sincerely enjoyed it.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Russia, Moscow
    Posts
    1,855

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kregs View Post
    But, one has to keep in mind that this was just one interrogator who happened to be in a good mood at that particular moment
    How do you know that it was "just one" in "good mood at that particular moment"???

    And the other question again:
    What would you take for "reliable information"?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Fairford Lake, Manitoba
    Posts
    16

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    In "Ivan's War: Life and Death in the Red Army, 1939-1945", historian Catherine Merridale goes to great pains to decribe the Draconian measures imposed by Stalin to ensure that returning Soviet Soldiers (ex-POW's or not) were not "tainted" by any tinge of admiration for the Western Capitalism they may have been exposed to. (Some of the the first-person accounts she that quotes are really quite heartbreaking.) Add to this Stalin's paranoid suspicions that Russian POW's might have been "turned" by their captors, and you can see that the resulting injustice in the form of the "Traitor" label was inevitable.

    ("Ivan's War", by the way, is a "cultural" rather than a "military" history of Russia during (and immediately after) the Great Patriotic War. Merridale -- a British Scholar--- has sifted through over 200 documents, many in the form of recently-released archival material, and mixed her findings with veterans' recollections and personal observations based on her own years of travelling throughout Soviet and Post-Soviet Russia. It's very readable, and as for "objectivity" -- it doesn't get much better than this! )
    Last edited by Emchista; 01-22-2010 at 09:09 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    87

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    How do you know that it was "just one" in "good mood at that particular moment"???
    Because of what Gregory said: his interrogator was in a good mood and was very pleasant with him. I can imagine what would happen to poor Gregory if the said interrogator was in a particularly nasty mood or insisted that he was a "traitor" no matter the circumstances of his surrendering to the Germans. His life was in this stranger's hands. It would be rather easy to chuck him into the gulag if he were in a bad mood wouldn't it?

    And the other question again:

    What would you take for "reliable information"?
    I would take information such as books, documents, interviews, newspapers articles, et, etc that is good, truthful information. I especially look for information that would illuminate the subject matter.
    Last edited by Kregs; 01-22-2010 at 02:03 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Russia, Moscow
    Posts
    1,855

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kregs View Post
    Because of what Gregory said: his interrogator was in a good mood
    He did not say that interogator was in "good mood". Please re-read.

    I would take information such as books, documents, interviews, newspapers articles, et, etc that is good, truthful information. I especially look for information that would illuminate the subject matter.
    The inmates of the "verification filtration camps" of NKVD belonged to so called " particular contigent".

    The particular contigent consisted of 3 categories of people:
    1. POWs and servicemen encircled by the enemy.
    2. German police servicemen collaborators and other civilians suspected of collaboration.
    3. Civilian men of draft age who lived on the German occupied territory.

    From the end of 1941 to 1 October 1944 they received 421.199 persons (1st category - 354.592 ; 2nd category - 40.062 ; 3rd category - 26.545 ).
    For the same period the following number of people left the filtration camps: 335.487 (319.239, 3.061 and 13.187 respectivly).

    Of the mentioned 354.592 of the 1st category (POW and enemy encircled servicemen) background was checked and then send to:

    • 249.416 - sent to Army units for service.
    • 30.749 - sent to civil and military industry.
    • 5.924 - sent for service as NKVD servicemen.
    • 11.556 - arrested by NKVD (of which 2.083 for espionage charges)
    • 5.347 - left for various reasons (to hospitals, deceased, ect).
    • 51.601 - still undergoing background check.

    In 1944 - 1946 - 4,2 million repatriants arrived to USSR.
    6,5% (app. 273.000 people) of those were regarded as "particular contigent" and were assembled in the "verification filtration camps" of NKVD for background check.


    seource: http://www.tuad.nsk.ru/~history/Auth...es/ZEMSKOV.HTM

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    87

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    He did not say that interogator was in "good mood". Please re-read.
    I'll give you he didn't state it specifically, but other parts suggest that he was in a substantially better mood than the previous interrogation. When you are "friendly" towards another person doesn't it usually mean that you are in a "good mood"?

    From the interview:
    When I ended my narration, the investigator was silent for a while and then said: “Well, you dismissed for now… For now… Expect the next interrogation session.” After two weeks the guards called me in again. Unlike the first session he was friendly


    The inmates of the "verification filtration camps" of NKVD belonged to so called " particular contigent".

    The particular contigent consisted of 3 categories of people:
    1. POWs and servicemen encircled by the enemy.
    2. German police servicemen collaborators and other civilians suspected of collaboration.
    3. Civilian men of draft age who lived on the German occupied territory.

    From the end of 1941 to 1 October 1944 they received 421.199 persons (1st category - 354.592 ; 2nd category - 40.062 ; 3rd category - 26.545 ).
    For the same period the following number of people left the filtration camps: 335.487 (319.239, 3.061 and 13.187 respectivly).

    Of the mentioned 354.592 of the 1st category (POW and enemy encircled servicemen) background was checked and then send to:

    • 249.416 - sent to Army units for service.
    • 30.749 - sent to civil and military industry.
    • 5.924 - sent for service as NKVD servicemen.
    • 11.556 - arrested by NKVD (of which 2.083 for espionage charges)
    • 5.347 - left for various reasons (to hospitals, deceased, ect).
    • 51.601 - still undergoing background check.

    In 1944 - 1946 - 4,2 million repatriants arrived to USSR.
    6,5% (app. 273.000 people) of those were regarded as "particular contigent" and were assembled in the "verification filtration camps" of NKVD for background check.


    seource: http://www.tuad.nsk.ru/~history/Auth...es/ZEMSKOV.HTM

    What is the point of giving me these statistics? It's not that I don't doubt that several POWs were sent to the gulags for espionage charges or were subjected to several rounds of interrogation...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Russia, Moscow
    Posts
    1,855

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Firstly, since I myself translated the Gregory's account I know that he didn't reffer to the interrogators mood, but to his attitude. True that these two are And may be linked to each other, but Gregory didn't imply that.
    Therefor claming, like you did, that Gregory was incredibly lucky that just one interrogator was in a good mood on that one day is wrong.

    Secondly, regarding the statistics. I sugest that you think hard and descide for your self what a hack you want to find out. Then please formulate your request clearly.
    So far I provided you information exactly in responce to your request as stated in the last two paragraphs of the oppening post.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kregs View Post
    Interesting. It's also interesting to note that after Germany was defeated Russian POWs were still considered traitors to the Motherland.

    Also, it's interesting to note that he didn't deny the fact that POWs didn't lose all citizenship/status after the war, but were subjected to rounds of interrogations. But, one has to keep in mind that this was just one interrogator who happened to be in a good mood at that particular moment. IF not, poor guy would have served a sentence in siberia and/or had to put his parents through the same hell that destroyed the careers of many great men.

    I find it difficult to accept that a POW is automatically a traitor and needs to be hung, but hey surrendering to the enemy is in violation of No. 270. There's isn't any wiggle room through that rule.

    Thanks for the interview. I sincerely enjoyed it.
    Not only were Russian POW’s considered traitors, but so were Russians who had been sent to work in Germany as forced labourers. Many were shipped to Siberia.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Russia, Moscow
    Posts
    1,855

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Quote Originally Posted by rav4 View Post
    Not only were Russian POW’s considered traitors, but so were Russians who had been sent to work in Germany as forced labourers. Many were shipped to Siberia.
    Interesting. Could you please elaborate on the second point.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    Interesting. Could you please elaborate on the second point.
    There are a couple of links that might interest you;

    http://www.fortfreedom.org/h16.htm

    http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/1/4/Lutton371.html

    It's a lot of reading. Not very flattering to the British, Americans or the Russians.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    Interesting. Could you please elaborate on the second point.
    Egorka, you are keeping me busy searching for info.

    http://www.dpcamps.org/repatriation.html

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Russia, Moscow
    Posts
    1,855

    Default Re: Russian POWs

    That is interesting.
    So can you summorise in your own words, please.

    In the mean while you can read the text of the oath writen by Cossack leader Pyotr Krasnov himself:

    «I swear and promise in front of the God Almighty and The Holly Gosspel, that I will be faithful to The Leader of the New Europe and The German nation - Adolf Hitler, whom I will faithfully serve and battle against Bolshevism, selflessly and to the last drop of my blood.

    I will whole-heartedly follow all the laws and orders issued by the superiors assigned by the Leader of the German nation - Adolf Hitler.

    In a field, in fortresses, in trenches, on seas,in the sky and on land, everywhere in battle I will bravely fight the enemy and will serve faithfully together with the German armed forces protecting New Europe and my dear army against the Bolshevik slavery and until comlete victory over Bolshevism and its allies.
    ...»

    BTW, "and its allies" is you - Canada.
    Last edited by Egorka; 03-04-2010 at 05:17 PM.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •