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Chevan
10-06-2009, 02:09 AM
Comrides, i found out an interesting article in russian Wiki about one soviet fighter pilot who shoted 9 Stukas for single battle.
Hero of the Soviet Union Alexander Gorovec (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D 1%80_%D0%93%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%86)
http://www.warheroes.ru/hero/images/1hero/GorovetsAldrKonst.jpg
The Russian Wiki claims to him belongs the unique record of shoting down the enemy aircraft during the one battle.
The background is next.
In july 6 1943 he flew his La-5fn on a back way to base, together with 7 soviet fighters. they got a task to cover soviet troops during the Kursk Battle from Germans bombers.Suddenly the leutenant Golovec has seen the big group of germans Stukas U-87 , right under his plane.Nearly 20 bombers with escort of four fighters FW-190.
Golovec shout to radio to their mates he began the attack. However the radio was broken, and their comrides just lost him, flying to base.Alexander ALONE dive down and shoot the first headed Stukas.he open fire from close distance.Then he made the vertical loop and catch in sign the other one.
The La-5 fn was a newest soviet fighter that time, armed by two 20-mm SVAK gun. Enough effective to cut off the wing of aircraft. The one after one he shoted down the 8 stukas,the few U-87 blowed up right in air, until his shells were over.
The escort Fokkers truing to attack him, but becouse Golovec all time operated too close to Stukas, they didn't shoot , fearing to hit the german plane.
But that madman didn't think go out of battle. He drop his fighter right to the U-87 tail , and cutt off the plane by the... propeller.
Then he trued to land damaged La-5( the plane particulary lost the control-ability) right on the field, but the FW now got the chance to attack him. He was hited right near the land and crushed.
Leutenant Alexander Gorovec died.
FOr a long time he was considere as "missed" in his regiment. However the inhabitans of village, near wich the battle happens, told the story about unknow soviet fighter , who shoted down 8 and ramming the one Germans bombers.He crushed just right the collective farm field , next to village.In 1957 the groupe of activist found out the plase of catastrophe, and dig out the plane with remains of pilot.
The documents were in relatively good condition , thus the world has known the name of the missed hero.
Now there is a big monument , devoited to Alexander, right in road Moscow-Simferopol.
I have and question.
Does somebody have the information about German planes lost the day 6 jule of 1943?
I know the Luftwaffe waged a statistic of any lost plane,at least untill last mounth of war, when any statistic seems to be very problematic due to total chaos.
And more, does somebody know the other one pilot who shoted down more or the same figures of enemy aircraft per battle in ww2?

pdf27
10-06-2009, 04:57 AM
Ummm... hate to sound like a skeptic, but if he died in this particular battle and his squadron mates had already lost him, how do we know this actually happened? If nothing else, that alone is probably quite an interesting story...

Rising Sun*
10-06-2009, 05:26 AM
Ummm... hate to sound like a skeptic, but if he died in this particular battle and his squadron mates had already lost him, how do we know this actually happened?

From this part of Chevan's post:


FOr a long time he was considere as "missed" in his regiment. However the inhabitans of village, near wich the battle happens, told the story about unknow soviet fighter , who shoted down 8 and ramming the one Germans bombers.He crushed just right the collective farm field , next to village.In 1957 the groupe of activist found out the plase of catastrophe, and dig out the plane with remains of pilot.
The documents were in relatively good condition , thus the world has known the name of the missed hero.

I think the reference to 'missed" might have been intended by Chevan to refer to Gorovec "missing in action" with his post-battle fate unknown to his comrades, as was common for pilots on all sides, rather than going missing from his comrades at the time. Chevan may wish to clarify this.

Rising Sun*
10-06-2009, 05:32 AM
And more, does somebody know the other one pilot who shoted down more or the same figures of enemy aircraft per battle in ww2?

Apparently Erich Rudorffer got thirteen in one mission, although it's not clear if it was one battle.

Gavril Vlasovič Didenko got thirteen in one day, although only nine in one battle, a few days before Gorovec.

Taken from this list, which shows some pilots with even higher numbers for one day: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/intreresting-ace-statistics-599.html

Chevan
10-07-2009, 05:31 AM
Gavril Vlasovič Didenko got thirteen in one day, although only nine in one battle, a few days before Gorovec.

Yes mate.
Actualy another hero of SU Didenko has shoted down 4 personaly and 9 in group 2 jule 1943.
But he fley 6 missions that day.
http://www.peoples.ru/military/aviation/gavriil_didenko/
The Alexander Gorovec has shoted 9 in ONE mission , attacking the big group of enemy aircraft quite ALONE.This is unique situation in all soviet aviation.

Chevan
10-07-2009, 05:38 AM
Ummm... hate to sound like a skeptic, but if he died in this particular battle and his squadron mates had already lost him, how do we know this actually happened?
Me too.
Actualy the pilots had the tend to overestimate its victories. It happend too often during the ww2.
However the unique of Gorovec situation was that he didn't report the resault the battle. The story was restored from testimonies of civils. Besides it was uncovered in 1957 when the war-time hurrey-propogandic histeria was already over.
Though i think we shall to check out the EGrmans records that day of missed shtukas for clearness..

Chevan
10-07-2009, 06:11 AM
Here is i found the testimonies of that battle (http://samsv.narod.ru/Klb/GSS/Gorovets.html)

.бой был недалеко от деревни Зоринские Дворы, то свидетелями были , например, Сережа Сергеев (9 лет), его мать Наталья Федосеевна и их односельчанка Прасковья Николаевна Лобачева. Они насчитали 20 вражеских бомбардировщиков. Из них наш летчик сбил 9 самолетов. Когда появились 4 немецких истребителя, то, видимо, один из них получил повреждение, но увернулся. Вскоре самолет Горовца был сбит.
В Зоринских Дворах никто, конечно, не знал имени летчика-истребителя. Сергея позднее призвали на службу в ТОФ, где его рассказом заинтересовался зам. командира корабля и сказал, что летчик - настоящий герой, и хорошо бы выяснить его имя. После этого, определив по памяти приблизительное место падения и взрыва самолета, в 1957 году Сергею и его друзьям Александру Лобачеву и Анатолию Черкасову удалось откопать на глубине одного метра обломки самолета (хвостовое оперение, шасси и пушку). Самолет лежал вниз кабиной. В кабине обнаружили останки летчика, орден Красного Знамени, карту, выцветшую фотографию, полевую сберкнижку, борт-журнал, удостоверение личности, письма. Многие документы уже нельзя было прочесть. В нагрудном кармане истлевшей гимнастерки обнаружился партбилет, фотография выцвела, но номер билета и запись, сделанную черной тушью, можно было прочитать: № 2682000 Горовец Александр Константинович...

The dogfight occured near the village Zorinskie Dvory. The witnesses Seregha Sergeev (9 year old) his mother Natalia Fedoseevna and woman Praskovia Lobacheva.They alltogether have counted the 20 enemy bombers.Our fighter shoted dowm 9 of them.When the 4 german fighter has attacked him, one probably was damaged by Russians, but survived. Soon the soviet fighter was shot down.
Nobody know the name of soviet ace.When Sergey was 18 , he was recruited to the SOviet fleet, where he has told the story to his ship's commander. The officer was interesting of story and advised to learn the name of heroe in place of his death.After the demobilisation in 1957,Sergey together with two mates, has found the place when La-5 was crushed and dig out the metall details of plan, including the 20-mm gun. The remains of pilot were also there.They found out the party-membership card number 2682000 , Gorovec Alexander Konstantinovich.There were also the Order of Red banner, by which pilot was awarded.

Very intersting IMO. The boy has finaly found the plane thrue 14 years.

pdf27
10-07-2009, 09:23 AM
How is he defining German planes "shot down"? If pilots are notorious for overestimating kill claims (and sincerely believing that they did indeed shoot those aircraft down), then one would assume that a ground observer would be little better. While they are under less immediate pressure, they have a restricted field of view, are further away, and in this case he was only 9 as well so would have a somewhat limited understanding of what was going on.

Chevan
10-07-2009, 12:57 PM
How is he defining German planes "shot down"? If pilots are notorious for overestimating kill claims (and sincerely believing that they did indeed shoot those aircraft down), then one would assume that a ground observer would be little better. While they are under less immediate pressure, they have a restricted field of view, are further away, and in this case he was only 9 as well so would have a somewhat limited understanding of what was going on.
Sure the ground observers has a limited area to see what is going on endeed.The witnesses insisted the U-87 were actualy damaged and crushed at the the land.
The red amry standarts imply that plane is "shoted down" ONLY if there was the confirmed to be crushed in air or on the land. The testimonies of pilot never enought for victory.Usially the role of "ground observers" played the soviet infantry, which was able to confirm or vise verse to denied the pilots claims.But i know the cases when the usial civils were witnesses of air battle. The Air command took their testimonies for post-mission report of pilots.
Honestly i don't exactly know how might the awerage woman to determine - were aircraft shoted down or not. But witnesses claims the few U-87 blowed up right on the air, the others had falled on the ground.
But anyway we need to check the german datas to be sure.
P.S. do you know the case over GB when civils were winesses of the air battle?
I 'm sure the entire London saw the hot dogfights during the Battle for britain. Many people should see the crushed german and british planes.

Egorka
10-07-2009, 02:45 PM
I have a slight doubdt.
You see, if the number of shot shtukas was recovered from the testimonies of the civilians of one village, then it can not be true.
It takes time to shoot 9 planes. During this time the planes would cover a long distance. If we take a Shutka's speed to be 350km/h then in 10 minutes it covers 58km. I doubt that was possible to monitor the respective air battle as well as count airplanes in the air along all that 58km distance.
Do you get my point?

Rising Sun*
10-08-2009, 04:27 AM
I have a slight doubdt.
You see, if the number of shot shtukas was recovered from the testimonies of the civilians of one village, then it can not be true.
It takes time to shoot 9 planes. During this time the planes would cover a long distance. If we take a Shutka's speed to be 350km/h then in 10 minutes it covers 58km. I doubt that was possible to monitor the respective air battle as well as count airplanes in the air along all that 58km distance.


That assumes that the planes were flying a straight line for the duration of the battle, which would result in the pursued plane being shot down only if the pursuing plane had greater speed to catch it in ten minutes.

Aerial battles were more usually fought in a series of turns, rolls, dives and climbs in various directions as the combatants tried to turn inside each other and gain or lose height, which confined the battle to a much smaller area than that possible with a simple linear flight.

This is exemplified in some Battle of Britain ground footage which enabled people on the ground to watch sustained aerial battles.

Egorka
10-08-2009, 05:30 AM
Yes, except that he attacked shtukas which, to my understanding, were on the bomning mission. In any case I presume that the shtukas were keeping formation even if they flew in a zigzag manner. Therefor I don't Think shtukas manuvering was too much different from a straight Line.
So I still think that the mentioned Air battle happened across a long distance.

Rising Sun*
10-08-2009, 06:02 AM
Yes, except that he attacked shtukas which, to my understanding, were on the bomning mission. In any case I presume that the shtukas were keeping formation even if they flew in a zigzag manner. Therefor I don't Think shtukas manuvering was too much different from a straight Line.
So I still think that the mentioned Air battle happened across a long distance.

Then the critical question is what were the relative speeds of Gorovec's plane and the Stukas, in that engagement rather than their relative top speeds?

And at what point of the mission were the Stukas, i.e. still at least 58 km away from their target or closer?

Egorka
10-08-2009, 06:22 AM
IIRC shtukas top speed is 390km/h. I intentionaly took a lower value - 350km/h.
La-5 speed was obviouly higher, but it has been said that German escort Fighters didn't shoot at him out og fear of hitting their own, i.e. Gorovec flew with app. The same speed A's shtukas for a ditation of the engagement.

Rising Sun*
10-08-2009, 07:11 AM
IIRC shtukas top speed is 390km/h. I intentionaly took a lower value - 350km/h.
La-5 speed was obviouly higher, but it has been said that German escort Fighters didn't shoot at him out og fear of hitting their own, i.e. Gorovec flew with app. The same speed A's shtukas for a ditation of the engagement.

I suppose it comes down partly to the angle of attack.

That is, a higher altitude attack diving down on the Stukas and going through their level, which seems to be described in the Gorevec exploit at #1, exposes fewer bombers to attack than an attack coming in on a similar level to the bombers as the similar level attack doesn't require the same recovery time to get back into a firing position.

#1
Alexander ALONE dive down and shoot the first headed Stukas.he open fire from close distance.Then he made the vertical loop and catch in sign the other one.

Egorka
10-11-2009, 03:41 PM
Is not one German pilot claimed 13 victories in one sortie over USSR? And if I am not mistaken he also claimed that all of them fell into the lake after he shot them down.

Egorka
10-11-2009, 04:02 PM
I found another text about the pilot and his last air fight: http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ace2ww/pilots/gorovec.html

I am not completely sure if it is trustworthy, but the general approach seems to be OK to me.

First of all, the results of the air battle was recorded from the testimonies of the ground forces, not villagers. Which is in practise much more realistic and potentially done from multiple observation points.

Secondly, the text elaborates on possible number of the planes shot by Gorovec.
It claims the the German Ju-87 losses of StG 77 () on 6 July were 10 machines. 5 of them were lost in one area. But 4 out of these 5 were reported by Germans as shot by the AA artillery.
At the same time, article sais that the Staff office of the 2nd Air Army reported destruction of 34 Ju-87 on the 6th of July. And that is without the 9 hit by Gorovec.

If the the info about the German loses is genuine, then it is likely that 9 shot planes is a product of war time propaganda.

Chevan
10-11-2009, 11:50 PM
good job Egorka.
however the general battle has happend over village Zorinskie Dvory. And soviet ground forces didn't observed the crushing the Gorovec plane. Otherwise ther soviet troops should find the remains of pilot first.
I believe, the Bf-109 , mentioned in article, actualy attackked the Gorovec's supproting aircraft and tied him into battle.Gorovec has stayed alone.


IIRC shtukas top speed is 390km/h. I intentionaly took a lower value - 350km/h.
La-5 speed was obviouly higher, but it has been said that German escort Fighters didn't shoot at him out og fear of hitting their own, i.e. Gorovec flew with app. The same speed A's shtukas for a ditation of the engagement.
No mate.
To attacke the Stuka from back with the same speed is pure ..suicide.
Don't forget about stukas rear mashin-ganner.
The attack might be more or less safe ONLY on the big speed and from the angle , not along parallel line to bomber's way.
And Stuka is not the B-17, it can't fly along shortest line all the way.Stuka can manoeuvre pretty effective.The formation was lost after the first Gorovec attack , and GErmans have to restore the formation before to fly further.
The speed of La-5 might be 100 km\h more then Stukas. Plus the Gorovec used the Vertical loop. Keep in mind also the Stukas were loaded by bombs and flew not too high over ground. I suppose 1-1,5 km.The La-5 was damn effective exactly on low altitude.
All above make me to conclude that whole the battle, theoretically, might be observed from one place.
The more interesting the germans datas of ONLY 10 lost U-87 that day.
The soviets claims 34 U-87 the same day:)I don't think the each was "confirmed" by the grounf forces.So we have to conclude- the soviet air command used the other testimonies for false claims.
The unique of Gorovec story IMO is , that it was fully restored from the tesimonies of civils.

Chevan
10-12-2009, 12:10 AM
I suppose it comes down partly to the angle of attack.

That is, a higher altitude attack diving down on the Stukas and going through their level, which seems to be described in the Gorevec exploit at #1, exposes fewer bombers to attack than an attack coming in on a similar level to the bombers as the similar level attack doesn't require the same recovery time to get back into a firing position.

#1
Actualy mate. The formation of U-87 imply the vertical levels by small groups.
Endeed the Stuka was vulnerable from attack of fighters.
The Best Australian pilot -fighter Clive Caldwell claims to hit 5 Stukas within the few minutes over Libya . His story is very close to that was told by villagers in Kursk.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Caldwell

I received radio warning that a large enemy formation was approaching from the North-West. No. 250 Squadron went into line astern behind me and as No. 112 Squadron engaged the escorting enemy fighters we attacked the JUs from the rear quarter. At 300 yards I opened fire with all my guns at the leader of one of the rear sections of three, allowing too little deflection, and hit No. 2 and No. 3, one of which burst into flames immediately, the other going down smoking and went into flames after losing about 1000 feet. I then attacked the leader of the rear section...from below and behind, opening fire with all guns at very close range. The enemy aircraft turned over and dived steeply... opened fire [at another Ju 87] again at close range, the enemy caught fire...and crashed in flames. I was able to pull up under the belly of one of the rear, holding the burst until very close range. The enemy... caught fire and dived into the ground.
So as we might to see, it was possible to hit the number of U-87 within the ONE mission, moreover it was possible to hit few of them within the ONE attack.

Rising Sun*
10-12-2009, 09:53 AM
The Best Australian pilot -fighter Clive Caldwell claims to hit 5 Stukas within the few minutes over Libya .

He was known by, but disliked, the nickname 'Killer' Caldwell.

Like many other distinguished and not so distinguished Australian servicemen, he was sidelined by MacArthur when Mac was boosting his image in his island campaign after relying on Australian troops to do much of the grinding work in New Guinea to 1944, but leaving the Australians behind on various pretexts to allow Mac to have his American [i.e. MacArthur] victory in the Philippines etc.

Unlike most other Australian servicemen, Caldwell openly revolted against the needless waste of Australian lives in backwaters while Mac added to his public image. Here is one version of Caldwell's 'mutiny'.


The Morotai Mutiny

by alf on 08 Oct 2005, 00:55

The "Morotai Mutiny" is one of the skeletons in the closet in the Royal Australian Airforce History (RAAF).

Eight of the RAAF most experienced pilots in April 1945 tendered their resignation from the service . They were all members of Number 80 & 81Wing (Spitfires) of the First Tactical Airforce based at Morotai.

They were Group Captain Clive Caldwell (CO 80 Wing) ( Australia's highest ace 28 1/2 kills) Group Captain Wilf Arthur (CO 81 Wng) (another ace). Wing Commanders John Waddy and Bobby Gibbes (both aces) The other 4 Officers were highly experienced fliers, Wing Commander Ranger, and Squadron leaders Grace, Vanderfield and Harpham.

The flash point for the mutiny was the arrest of Caldwell for running a booze racket allegedly using both RAAF and USAAAF aircraft, those charges were held over to post war.

The real reason was the frustration felt by the Australian pilots to being deliberately side lined from the fighting by MacArthur and the feeling that the RAAF High Command was weak and did not represent those who fought.

80 & 81 Wing had Spitfire Mark V111, a superb model of spitfire, it was not of the family of the upengined mark 1,2,5,9 series but a completely new aircraft. It was placed in an area where no japanese aircraft existed within its radius of operation at Morotai. There were no japanese aircraft there before the Wing moved there.

The frustration was (and still is) that by that time of the war , Australian forces were being deliberately side lined by MacArthur. He wanted the Phillipines to be a completely US affair, Australian forces were left out of serious fighting and were suffering casualities for no reason in fighting cut off Japanese forces well behind the front. This frustration was felt especially keenly by the spitfire pilots, denied combat due to politics. The First Tactical Airforce came under operational command of the the United States 13th Airforce ( Kenney).

In the months preceding the mutiny the two wings had lost 15 aircraft to enemy ground fire (and 11 men killed) in return they had destroyed twelve barges and 6 small motor vessels. Highly trained pilots were being frittered away for no reason.

The mutiny shocked the RAAF and from its Head Quarters , one Air Commdore ( Cobby 26 kills in WW1) and two Group Captains (Gibson and Simms) were sacked almost immediately.

The Chief of the Air Staff George Jones interviwed 7 of the 8 muntineers (not Caldwell) , Jones was disliked by the pilots as being out of touch and not representing them. His only answer to them as to why they were in a back water and not fighting was.that Curtain ( The then Australian Prime Minister) could not get MacArthur to allow Australian forces to fight in the Phillipines. General Kenney flew in all angry and demanding, he went quiet when the Australian pilots demanded to know why they were excluded from the fighting. ( Australians have a long proud history of not respecting rank merely because it is rank, the man has to earn their respect first)

The upshot was Australian fighter pilots were deliberately excluded from air combat from 1944 and they resented it and demanded answers. i.e Caldwell did not fly against enemy aircraft from August 1943, what his score would have been no one can say but he (and the others) were deliberatley denied any opportuniteis from then on.

Caldwell was eventually charged post war for his booze running, he was a milo mindbender ( Cacth 22 novel) but he also traded booze for equipment ( including getting a japanses zero from Clark Field for some bottles of whiskey).

Most of the charges were trumped up and dropped, he had incurred the wrath of the RAAF High command earlier in the war when he wrote that the Australian built fighter the Boomerang was rubbish ( it never shot down an enemy aircraft and was used purely for ground attack). The Chief of the Air Staff ( Jones ) had marked his file in 1942 " This Officer is an Empire air Trainee and as such is considered t be already sufficently decorated and is to receive no more regardless of future service"


He left the airforce in 1946 as a disgraced Flight Lieutenant. He was the highest scoring allied pilot in the Western Desert flying Tomahawks and Kittyhawks and he fought against the German aces there ( he shot down 10 ME 109's there) , his dismissal was a disgraceful episode in RAAF history.

The treatment of Australian forces in the South West Pacific post 1943 is also a disgrace, both for MacArthur and also for the then Australian Governemnet. Thats why the mutiny was hushed up.

My main reference is Killer Caldwell by Jeffrey Watson, the first biography of him ever writen ( released this year 2005) http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=87470

Caldwell was unusual in being awarded a Polish medal without serving in Europe, and being permitted by special dispensation of General Sikorski to wear the Polish pilot's badge. http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/caldwell.htm