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Kimura
09-22-2009, 02:10 AM
Trackstory 04 "l'impossbile sursaut" states about french Hotchkiss H-39 which rushed into combat with still the red primer applied w/o any kind of camouflage. Below a drawing of such a naked H-39 and a b/w pic in the right upper corner that shows the same tank. In that booklet there are other H-39 shown with the same appear. IIRC I've seen such a tank on a color photo taken in 1940. Does someone know where to find color shots of such a red tank?

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3351/32bild11.jpg

The Historian
12-06-2009, 08:29 PM
I'd look around museums first.

Not the only tank to go into battle without camouflage paint. T-34s made at the Red October Tractor Factory in Stalingrad were rolled off the assembly line in unprimed steel armor to engage German troops entering the city

Uyraell
01-21-2010, 10:49 AM
Osprey books, In Action profile series (late 1970's), Profile Publications.

Uyraell
01-21-2010, 10:51 AM
I've read those T34's were going into action before even the welds had properly cooled.
That may be apocryphal, but I'm almost prepared to believe it, because the fight by that stage was desperate beyond measure.

The Historian
01-21-2010, 02:55 PM
I wouldn't be surprised, if Stalin said that his city would be defended with bricks

Deaf Smith
01-24-2010, 09:27 PM
When your back is up against a wall no telling what you will do, or order people to do.

The Polish Cavalry did have lances to fight the Germans. Here is a interesting take on that from one who lived through it.

http://www.polishnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=404:last-great-charge-of-the-polish-cavalry&catid=93:historiapolish-history&Itemid=329



Deaf

The Historian
01-25-2010, 10:19 AM
When your back is up against a wall no telling what you will do, or order people to do.

The whole "Backs against the wall" thing

Nickdfresh
01-25-2010, 10:37 AM
When your back is up against a wall no telling what you will do, or order people to do.

The Polish Cavalry did have lances to fight the Germans. Here is a interesting take on that from one who lived through it.

http://www.polishnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=404:last-great-charge-of-the-polish-cavalry&catid=93:historiapolish-history&Itemid=329



Deaf

I don't believe they were actually using their lances, IIRC. They were attempting to disable the tanks by using grenades and Molotov cocktails...

Nickdfresh
01-25-2010, 10:42 AM
Back on topic of the thread, I believe the French made tanks were used in numbers by the Italians on Sicily (against Patton), and again by the Germans as Beutepanzers in Normandy, even thought the H-39 was obsolete by 1942. I'm guessing this is mainly because they were considered expendable yet useful against infantry lacking armored support, and meant to give some armored support to garrisons until main force panzer units could arrive to the coasts? Am I correct in this assumption?

Anybody know of any papers or info on this?

The Historian
01-25-2010, 02:58 PM
I know the Germans turned a lot of French tanks into tank destroyers and assault guns. Most of the converted vehicles were given to the Ost battalions that defended Normandy in 1944, while most of the German-made armored vehicles were sent east against the Russians

Uyraell
01-25-2010, 06:48 PM
Back on topic of the thread, I believe the French made tanks were used in numbers by the Italians on Sicily (against Patton), and again by the Germans as Beutepanzers in Normandy, even thought the H-39 was obsolete by 1942. I'm guessing this is mainly because they were considered expendable yet useful against infantry lacking armored support, and meant to give some armored support to garrisons until main force panzer units could arrive to the coasts? Am I correct in this assumption?

Anybody know of any papers or info on this?

You're correct, Nick.
I've seen several supporting references over the years, dating back as far as Cornelius Ryan and Kenneth Macksey.

Kindest Regards, Uyraell.

Nickdfresh
01-27-2010, 09:22 AM
I just picked up The Americans at D-Day by John C. McManus. I believe the source I used for my recollections was Ambrose's work on the same subject. I'll see what McManus says about this, but I'd like to know specifics as to how the Germans deployed these tanks in (very) secondary infantry support roles.

I recall the Italians were still using them (on Sicily) as main battle tanks as they lost much of their armor in North Africa. The Hotchkisses were quickly eviscerated by US Shermans, tank destroyers, bazookas--and even thermite grenades--as all were very effective against the French made armor long-in-the-tooth....

Some H39 "Beutepanzers":

http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/tanks/tanks-g-j/german-army-hotchkiss-h39-with-heavy-rocket-launcher.gif

http://worldwartwozone.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Hotchkiss_H-39.jpg

http://www.panzerworld.net/tanksinworldwar2/pictures/france/h39-02.jpg

Nickdfresh
01-27-2010, 09:31 AM
More on the H39 conversion to a SPG called the Marder series:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/marder-marten-series.htm

Uyraell
01-28-2010, 03:06 PM
I Like the images with the Wuhrframen, Nick.
The rockets were a cheap, but reasonably effective weapon.

Kindest Regards, Uyraell.