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Egorka
09-13-2009, 05:02 PM
Hello,

There has been a bit of commotion (http://www.ww2incolor.com/soviet-union/DZW-RC_980-981-4%23.html) in the photo section of the forum regarding the rape victims of RKKA in Germany and namely its numerical evaluation.
Anyway, I was hoping that Flamethrowerguy could illuminate some German sources on this matter.

By sources I mean actual SOURCES and not just where some number is quoted.

F.ex. Beefvor's "Berlin The Downfall 1945" is NOT a source on this particular matter, because the author only quotes others when elaborating on the topic of this thread.
Whereas "BeFreier und Befreite (http://www.amazon.de/BeFreier-Befreite-Krieg-Vergewaltigung-Kinder/dp/3596163056)" by Helke Sander and Barbara Johr does indeed brings new material and presents original assessment of the situation.

Nickdfresh
09-13-2009, 08:20 PM
So is Beevor's book Stalingrad not a source to be trusted on German atrocities committed in the Soviet Union?

Because I just used information derived from that book in the comments section of that very picture... :)

Egorka
09-14-2009, 03:34 AM
So is Beevor's book Stalingrad not a source to be trusted on German atrocities committed in the Soviet Union?

Because I just used information derived from that book in the comments section of that very picture... :)
That would depend on what information Beevor presents there. If it an original info not available previously or available only in a very limited circle, then Yes, it can be viewed as a source on that info.
If, on the other hand, his info is a reproduction of the info from other books, then No, it cann't be viewed as a source on that info.

I did not expect at all any objections on this part.

Nickdfresh
09-14-2009, 04:46 AM
That would depend on what information Beevor presents there. If it an original info not available previously or available only in a very limited circle, then Yes, it can be viewed as a source on that info.
If, on the other hand, his info is a reproduction of the info from other books, then No, it cann't be viewed as a source on that info.

I did not expect at all any objections on this part.

I do have somewhat of an objection, because Beevor does in fact cite specific critics of the Red Army's bahavior in Germany who themselves were members of the Soviet forces...

I also object to the inherent bias in the photo captioning as well, when we have some ****wit member with "SS" in his user-ID spewing such comments on the Soviet forces. But I was wondering how many photos of Germans in the Soviet Union he captions with, "I wonder how many children they murdered in reprisal killings?"

Egorka
09-14-2009, 06:04 AM
I guess then we understand word source differently.
For me "source" in means Original information and not just an interpretation of someone elses info.

F.ex. Beevor conveyed number 2M raped women in Germany. Where does that figure comes from? Beevor didn't calculate it himself. He refferes to other sources for that. So it is those sources that are sources in this case.

Flamethrowerguy mentioned other real sources. I would really want to know which one he ment as I my self don't read in German.

I my self know of only one such source chain: already mentioned "Libirators and liberated" by 2 female authors, which in it's turn reffers to a work of a German proffessor (can't look up his name right now).
So there you can actually see the origins of number 2 million. But not in the Beevors book.

pdf27
09-14-2009, 07:00 AM
I'm not sure how it is phrased in Russian, but in English they are typically described as Primary and Secondary sources - Primary sources being original material from those who were there, Secondary sources being people reporting what others have written. In this case Beevor would be a Secondary source - and as a well respected, serious historian quite a good one.

Rising Sun*
09-14-2009, 10:10 AM
F.ex. Beefvor's "Berlin The Downfall 1945" is NOT a source on this particular matter, because the author only quotes others when elaborating on the topic of this thread.


Building on pdf27's last post, if Beevor quotes primary sources then that is the best evidence available, but if he quotes secondary sources one has to go to the sources relied upon by those authors to determine whether they are primary or secondary sources to evaluate the strength of that evidence. That is the purpose of footnotes and bibliographies, to allow readers to assess the author's evidence and interpretation.

However, 'primary' sources in historians' usage can mean many things in this context, from the account of a person complaining of rape; to the account of someone who records what someone said who claimed to have been raped; to the account of someone who says it was well known that people were being raped but had no personal knowledge of it as a victim or recipient of a complaint. The second and third categories carry progressively less evidentiary weight than the first.

Chevan
09-15-2009, 12:59 AM
F.ex. Beefvor's "Berlin The Downfall 1945" is NOT a source on this particular matter, because the author only quotes others when elaborating on the topic of this thread..
endeed.
Beeing a brilliant publicist, Bevour often write the facts that he, merely can't know for sure.Or use his own constructions as a ..facts. For instance -some historians have very serious objection to the bevours's statistic of victims.
For the first time i meet his mistakes when i was reading his fascinating "Stalingrad".The scene of battle in Grain store .
The primary sorce of this scene was told in famouse memours of general Vasiliy Chiykov "Battle of Centure". According the book, the story was initially told by the veteran of Battle for Grain - the commander naval infantry platoon Andrey Hozainov.
Bevoure not just seriously distorted the original story , but even, hasn't mentioned the Primary source in his list of literature.
The next , wery unpleasant discovery for me was his direct slander on vets of 10 infantry division of NKVD (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-%D1%8F_%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BA%D0%BE% D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B7%D 0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%9D%D0%9A%D0%92%D0%94_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D 0%A1%D0%A0_(1-%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80% D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F)) , that participated in the battle.In fact the main role of that division was to defend the supplied line of 62-army and defence of its back.Almost all of the division was wiped out during the battle.Many of vets died as heroes.
If , say the Andrey Hozainov was a brits- the Bevouse probably might to get a serious court claims for slander.:)
But he is not, and we just watching and enjoy the brilliand self-developed reading.

Chevan
09-15-2009, 01:22 AM
F.ex. Beevor conveyed number 2M raped women in Germany. Where does that figure comes from? Beevor didn't calculate it himself. .
I strongly doubt anybody has such a statistic.
Endeed all what the BEvoure whas written in "BerlinDownfall" was literaly:
"One of soviet hight officers boasted after the war- there were about 2 millions of babies was born in GErmany from Red Army soldiers"( or something kinda that)
That's all the statistic:)
Think yourself- who may to calculate those figures?
Hardly the Autrorities of DDR may to do this. There were no a court procedure , except the few dozen known of military tribunal execution of Red Army soldiers for "immoral behaviour toward civils". It was just a "drop in sea".
The figure of 2 million was based on ..rumours and fear-tells, that actively was supported in the West during the Cold war( becouse we all know why:)).
Honestly , the Soviet sources also err from the true, accepting the Goebbels-based figures about victims of firebombing of Drezden.
P.S. if serious , i don't think that the raping can be considered as a "serious military crime" in war, where people were killed by millions.For me is much more terrible story - the post-war mass execution of GErman civils kinda mass murdering the refugees near Marienburg.

Nickdfresh
09-15-2009, 07:35 AM
Firstly, I'd like some citations regarding the lack of citations and accuracy. I what context did Beevor say the number "two million" and what page/chapter/section is the statistic listed?

Chevan
09-15-2009, 01:56 PM
Firstly, I'd like some citations regarding the lack of citations and accuracy. I what context did Beevor say the number "two million" and what page/chapter/section is the statistic listed?
Well , i m not sure about the American edition, but there is the Russian translation of Berlin Downfall
http://militera.lib.ru/research/beevor2/27.html
Chapter 27.
Vae Victis

Берлинцы помнят пронзительные крики по ночам, раздававшиеся в домах с выбитыми окнами. По оценкам двух главных берлинских госпиталей, число жертв изнасилованных советскими солдатами колеблется от девяноста пяти до ста тридцати тысяч человек. Один доктор сделал вывод, что только в Берлине было изнасиловано примерно сто тысяч женщин. Причем около десяти тысяч из них погибло в основном в результате самоубийства. Число смертей по всей Восточной Германии, видимо, намного больше, если принимать во внимание миллион четыреста тысяч изнасилованных в Восточной Пруссии, Померании и Силезии. Представляется, что всего было изнасиловано порядка двух миллионов немецких женщин, многие из которых (если не большинство) перенесли это унижение по нескольку раз
Тема массовых бесчинств Красной Армии в Германии была так долго под запретом в России, что даже теперь ветераны отрицают, что они имели место. Лишь некоторые говорили об этом открыто, но без всяческих сожалений. Он даже хвалился, что «два миллиона наших детей родились в Германии».

Berliners still remember the night cries that was heard on the streets. Accroding the estimates of two Berlin's major hospitals , the figures of raped in Berlin lies from 95 to 135 thousands. The other doctors claims - there were raped up to 100 thousands.About 10 thousands later had commited suicide.However the total figure of victims in entire East Germany is much bigger - only inEastern Prussia and Pomerania were raped up to 1 million 400 thousands of women( ???). It's a appears , that the final figure of raped germans was close to the TWO MILLIONS
The theme of mass raping of Germans was tabou for so long time, that russian vets still deny the facts( ??? facts or statistic)
Just few told boldly , but without regret- one even boasted - the two million of OUR babies had been born in Germany
I don't know where he migh to get such a figures, buf for sake of true, he noticed that the rapings were commited not just by the Soldiers. the foreigh workers and former prisoners of camps also took active participation in violence .
Sometimes he wrote a real nonsence.
Chapter 28

Политические работники были также обеспокоены распространившимися среди военнослужащих «антисоветскими высказываниями». Многие солдаты жаловались на то, что на родине к их семьям не относятся с должным вниманием. Один из них утверждал в разговоре с источником, что не верит в улучшение жизни в тыловых районах, поскольку имел случай наблюдать все собственными глазами{988}. Военнослужащим не нравилось и то, как относятся и к ним самим. Даже в самом конце войны некоторые части были близки к мятежу, узнав об инструкциях, предписывающих раздевать погибших солдат вплоть до нижнего белья. Только офицеры могли быть похоронены при полной форме. Последний факт, кстати, мог служить одной из причин участившихся убийств нелюбимых офицеров своими же собственными подчиненными

Political officers were worried by the anti-soviet sentences among the soldiers.Soldiers also didn't like the new instructions which order to undress the died soldiers to underwear. Only the officers migh be bury in full form.That fact can be the reason of murder the officers by their own soldiers.

Honestly , i can't even imagine where Bevour might to find this bul...it.Obviously this man sometims forget about Sense of reality.
not i wish to say he is lie, but sometims i felt i read the nowell , but not a work that claims to be the historical research.
It's funny - man who calculater all the raped german woman , seems forget to add about more then 600 thousands of victims of firebombing in Germany. Its look like very biased matter for me.

Nickdfresh
09-15-2009, 05:39 PM
Well , i m not sure about the American edition, but there is the Russian translation of Berlin Downfall
http://militera.lib.ru/research/beevor2/27.html
Chapter 27.
Vae Victis


I'm not that far yet, but I'll scan it over...

Obviously it's an estimate. But in any case, how many were raped? Are we supposed to not mention inconvenient historical facts just because the NKVD didn't keep copious records on rapes?

How would one get an exact total when the Nazi-German regime was collapsing, and they themselves largely ignored the plight of their people in any capacity other than for propaganda purposes.

It was in fact the ****ing bastards in the Nazi high command and regional adjuncts that refused to allow civilians to flee, or plan systematic withdrawals to, the Red Army advances until it was too late, often while they themselves fled West after exhorting the people to fight to the death...


I don't know where he migh to get such a figures, buf for sake of true, he noticed that the rapings were commited not just by the Soldiers. the foreigh workers and former prisoners of camps also took active participation in violence .
Sometimes he wrote a real nonsence.

This is probably true. Beevor mentions that the German high command had a real fear of uprisings by concentrated numbers of conscripted foreign workers. Beevor also mentions that Polish and even Soviet girls forced to Germany were raped...


Chapter 28

Honestly , i can't even imagine where Bevour might to find this bul...it.Obviously this man sometims forget about Sense of reality.
not i wish to say he is lie, but sometims i felt i read the nowell , but not a work that claims to be the historical research.
It's funny - man who calculater all the raped german woman , seems forget to add about more then 600 thousands of victims of firebombing in Germany. Its look like very biased matter for me.


Actually he mentions firebombing by the Western Allies and mentions Dresden predominately. If you actually bother to read his work on Stalingrad, he also labors to mention the massive suffering endured by the Soviet people under Nazi occupation. In the edition of The Fall of Berlin 1945 I am reading, he mentions Dresden on no less than six different pages (times) throughout the book. On page 83 (US edition), he describes the raids of February 13 and 14th as "merciless".

He also takes great pains to mention that the Soviets were outraged after overrunning concentration camps and lovely facilities designed to research the making of soap out of human corpses and points out repeatedly the German atrocities in the Soviet Union as the ominous shadow hanging over the Germans about to be overrun.

He white-washes nothing...

But you would of course actually have to read the books rather than selectively judging the segments of the book based on websites and message boards. :)

Chevan
09-16-2009, 01:10 AM
I'm not that far yet, but I'll scan it over...

Obviously it's an estimate. But in any case, how many were raped? Are we supposed to not mention inconvenient historical facts just because the NKVD didn't keep copious records on rapes?

That's whole a problem. Nobody exactly know the figures. Bevour claims that the Berlin's hospitals estimates the number of raped in berlin near 100 000. This is probably close to reality.
But his sentences about 1,4 million raped in East Prussia can't has any other sorce except the nazis era stattistic( that hardly differ from propogand)
Coz the Red Army has cuptured the East prussia and Pomerania- the Nazis germany still existed.
BTW he wrote a quite amazing things for me.
Chapter 27

Интересно, что в Померании в отличие от других германских земель, оккупированных Красной Армией, остававшееся там немецкое население было настроено к русским гораздо более дружественно. Дело в том, что померанцы с [545] тревогой ожидали того дня, когда их родные места перейдут под контроль Польши. Они приходили в ужас от одной только мысли, какой может быть для них месть со стороны поляков
its interesting, that the population of Pomerania were more friendly to Russians, becose they feared that day when their land should be pass under controll of Poland. They come to horror from thought which migh be the revenge of poles.

This little paragrah contains very importaint sence.
The LOCAL POPULATION of Eastern Europe actively participated in raping and murdering of GErmans.
But Bevour easy hang all the victims to the ..Red Army
The contemporary researches claims that about 2 million of ethnical germans civils simply ...disappeared during post war deportation in Eastern Europe. But agenda of Bevour is just ...rapings of red army.The strange approach.


It was in fact the ****ing bastards in the Nazi high command and regional adjuncts that refused to allow civilians to flee, or plan systematic withdrawals to, the Red Army advances until it was too late, often while they themselves fled West after exhorting the people to fight to the death...

They were bus...rds of cource.
But i have to add..there were a certain sence in forbidding the total evacuation to the west.
Where they eastern rural population have to fled?
To the Western cities?
It's not me to tell you the ALL of german cities were crushed to the stone during the last month of war.
The refugees not just blocked all the roads , but created the serious epidemic problems in the cities.



This is probably true. Beevor mentions that the German high command had a real fear of uprisings by concentrated numbers of conscripted foreign workers. Beevor also mentions that Polish and even Soviet girls forced to Germany were raped...

Bevour wasn't first who mentioned that every one from age 8 to 80 were rapedi Eastern Zone :)It seems Goebbels after Nemmersdorf has introduced it to practice.
But he definitelly has developed the "concept" to its best.he Western Zone, as we might to conclude was a paradice for GErman population:)



Actually he mentions firebombing by the Western Allies and mentions Dresden predominately. If you actually bother to read his work on Stalingrad, he also labors to mention the massive suffering endured by the Soviet people under Nazi occupation. In the edition of The Fall of Berlin 1945 I am reading, he mentions Dresden on no less than six different pages (times) throughout the book. On page 83 (US edition), he describes the raids of February 13 and 14th as "merciless".

Yes he mentioned casually the violence on the East.And he mentioned ONCE Drezden as "mercilles".
Chapter 6
East and West

В ту же ночь британская авиация произвела налет на Дрезден. А на следующее утро удары по некоторым менее значительным целям нанесли ВВС Соединенных Штатов Америки. Все это было представлено как быстрый ответ на желание советской Ставки предотвратить переброску немецких войск с одного фронта на другой. Планировщики этих ударов были обозлены также фактом непрекращающихся немецких атак по Англии с использованием новейшего оружия — ракет фау. Только за последнюю неделю немцы выпустили по Британским островам сто восемьдесят ракет — что стало своеобразным рекордом. В свою очередь, Дрезден, импозантная столица Саксонии, никогда ранее не подвергался сильным бомбежкам союзной авиации. Дрезденцы даже шутили, что вроде бы в их городе проживает тетя Черчилля, и именно потому они живут достаточно спокойно. Этому спокойствию настал конец во время безжалостных налетов 13 и 14 февраля. Эффект от ударов был сравним с разрушениями Гамбурга. Более того, дополнительно к местным жителям в Дрездене в тот момент находилось еще порядка трехсот тысяч беженцев с востока. Несколько поездов с ними расположились на главном вокзале города. Вопреки утверждениям советской стороны [103] эти железнодорожные поезда перевозили не немецкие войска, а мирных граждан, — к тому же не на восток, а на запад.

That night the RAF bombed the Drezden. Next morning the USAAF also began to bomb some less significan "targets"( my comments -he probably meant the Drezden railway station:))It was presented as quick answer of the soviet demand to neitralise the possibility to transport the german reinforcement to the Eastern front(!!!!!)Those who planned the bombings also were angered by the continious German attack on England , using the newest V-2. Only dufing last week were send up about 180 missles.It was a record all during the war.
On it's turn Drezden, the buatiful capital of Saxonia, were never bombed before. Drezdeners even joked - it coz aunt of CHirchil lives in their city? therefore they live relatively calm.The calm has ended during the MERCILLES raid of 13 and 14 febriary.
The effect was compared to which was in Gamburg. Additionaly there were about 300 000 of refugess from East inDresden.The few trains with them were still on the reailroad station( my comment - the refugees were not in station, but were placed on City park. The RAF didn't even tried to bomb station, the USAF did it on morning 14 feb.) .
Despite of claims the Soviets - those trains transported not the germn troops but refugees, and not to East, but to the West:);)

What an interesting text.
From which we accidentaly migh to learn that...allies air command indeed didn't wish to bomb the Dresden , but dastard soviet has demanded it.:)
According the Bevour, The tragedy of Dresden was happend becouse..
-Germans themsleft bombed Britain first.
-Soviets asked to bomb the city:)
the british high command it seems was a naive victims of circumstance.
Nick, this is not even funny.
The Bevour not just keep silence about figures of victims , but try to turn the things up side down- he claims that soviet asced to do it.He simply ignored doctrine of Arthur Harris.


He white-washes nothing...

True, nothing execpt the actions of OWN British military forces.:)
Bevoure even blamed the poles for their cruel relation to germans(remember my post about 80 murdered german pows by the polish escort?)


But you would of course actually have to read the books rather than selectively judging the segments of the book based on websites and message boards. :)
Nick , i have the book right in my house, and i read this from start to end at least 3 times since 2004 when i'v bought it.Not to mention how much times i re-read the some paragraphs and chapters.
I use the Internet source just to show you the original text without scanning and recognition.
My point is not i dislike the Bevour or claim he is liar.
But he is a bit...non objective.
If you are going to write a book about last days of Berlin in ww2 and suffering of german civils - you shall at least to calcilate all the victims, including the victims of bombing.
Bu it seems bevour's ill sexual imagination didn't really care of it.
We know, according the last historical estimates , the figure of victims of firebombing compain in GErmany were about 600 000 civils. Bevour has mentioned it NOWHERE.
I repeat NOWHERE, this man calculated the victims of Allies.
Insted he just persistly inspire the thought about 2 million raped during all the book.Nice method.
In this prospect his book look rather like one more russophobe nowel , that might to case the negative reaction.

Chevan
09-16-2009, 02:20 AM
Almost forgot.
The Chapter6 and Chapter27 was probably the best in whole the book.
If you can scan the book, Nick , pliease scan those chapters.
The next paragraph is just brilliant
right after the bombing of Drezden

Геббельс, по-видимому шокированный произошедшим, хотел немедленно расправиться с таким же количеством союзных военнопленных, сколько мирных граждан было убито во время налетов{191}. Эта идея понравилась Гитлеру. Однако столь жестокие меры шли вразрез со статьями Женевской конвенции и еще раз показали бы общественному мнению Запада, против кого они ведут борьбу. Такой шаг не оставил бы немцам другого выхода — только сражаться до самого конца. Видимо, поэтому генерал Йодль, поддержанный Риббентропом, фельдмаршалом Кейтелем и гросс-адмиралом Дёницем, в конце концов смог настоять на том, что подобная эскалации террора не принесет Германии никакой пользы. Тем не менее Геббельс постарался выжать все возможное из этой «террористической атаки».

Goebbels were shocked by the attack on Drezden and had suggested to kill the equal number of allied pows. Hitler has appreciated this idea.However those meants were a serious violation of Geneva convention and one more time would demontrate to wolrd whith whom the Allies fought(:);)))Such a step doesn't leave the other way to germany as to fought to the end.( and what they did endeed??:))
Therefore the general Yodl , supported by Ribbentrop , Keitel and Donetz, finaly migh to convince the Hitler that such an escalation of terror will not be profitable to GErmany(?)
Nevetheless Goebbels took all possible propogandic matter from "teroristic attack" .

That's very funny.
Firsly , mr Bevour try to convince the readers that some Nazis boss kinda Ribbemtrop actualy care about Geneva convention;);).
its look like Geneva convention recommends to bult the death-camp of occuped territories.
or mr Bevour simply didn't knew about death-camp in Poland that were already liberated in jenuary 1945, neither he heard about mass Ethnical purges on the East?Plan of extermination Jews from Europe also were Mystery for Bevour, and Nazis bosses as well.
Sure all of it is highly recommended in Geneva convention
It seems also the Youdl and Keitel , beeing fanatical nazy , didn't even guess about millions killed in Aushwitz?
Coz they feared to violate the .....geneva conventions , killing additional 30-50 thousand of POWs
Secondary, the Hitler ostensibly , was scared by perspective of Total war to the end:)
Of course , having exterminated all the slavs and jews in Europe and USSR, Hitler would not be obligated wage the war to the end, as if they killed allied pows.
Both points are rater silly but fun.
I can find a lot of simular thing in whole a book, but i will just waithing for the Nicki:)

Nickdfresh
09-16-2009, 02:50 PM
I don't have time to go line by line and post my personal thoughts. But I read Beevor's short bio on Wiki yesterday and I think most might find this to be of interest:


Criticism

Berlin: The Downfall 1945 has encountered criticism in Russia.[4] The Russian ambassador to the UK denounced the book as "lies" and "slander against the people who saved the world from Nazism".[5] O.A. Rzheshevsky, a professor and President of the Russian Association of World War II Historians, has charged that Beevor is merely resurrecting the discredited and racist views of Neo-Nazi historians, who depicted Soviet troops as subhuman "Asiatic hordes".[6] Other western historians such as Richard Overy have criticised Russian "outrage" at the book and defended Beevor. Overy accused the Russians of refusing to acknowledge Soviet war crimes, "Partly this is because they felt that much of it was justified vengeance against an enemy who committed much worse, and partly it was because they were writing the victors' history."[7]

This criticism centres on the book's discussion of atrocities committed by the Red Army against German civilians – in particular, the extremely widespread rape of German women and female Russian forced labourers, both before and after the end of the war.[8] Beevor himself stated that he is critical of portraying Germans as victims. In an interview with the major Polish daily Gazeta Wyborcza, he stated that the entry of the Red Army was the result of a German-intiated war, as well as the fact that German society overwhelmingly supported Hitler and in fact wanted the war, pointing out that the women were also part of that society. Additionally he refuses to see Germans as victims, unlike Jews, Poles or Russians.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor

Chevan
09-17-2009, 12:26 AM
Nick, i read wiki and i know the point of Bevour.
As i said his problem not like he is lier, the matter of Raping was endeed closed in USSR.
But he put it just like the ALL russian soldier felt duty to rape as many germans as they can.
its look like the grand dad of my mate Egorka was just a sexual maniak who has come to Germany only to kill and rape, according the Bevour.
This is a serious problem.
The book Berlin Downfall was very fascinting wrote , but as it has been shown - many paragraphs contain the wrong or false information. Finaly, he just a man who has a right to commit a mistakes.
But he is not just is wrong, he deliberately PR the Red Army atrocities, hiding the atrocities of alles.
This is very importaint thing.
Reading his book one can believe that Western Zone was a sort of pardice, but Eastern zone was just hell.
You know this is wrong black/white method.
Bevour calculate the figures of victims on the East, ignoring the figures of murders an rapings , commited by allied forces.
It's very danger biased way.
He try to rise a rusophobia among Germans - is he realy so stopid not to understand that GErmans hardly forgot about British actions againt their civils?

P.S. still i would like to ask you to scan at least Chapter 6.
I ask you coz i nowhere found this book in English. I use the Russian version , that is not original.
Please help me to get the Chapter 6 in English.
Send me just a scans, i will recognize and post it by FineReader myself.

AirdefMike
09-17-2009, 07:27 AM
Back in June I went to the local library to find the much maligned Baryshnikov's "The siege of Leningrad and Finland" (thanks for the tip, Egorka!) and found that Beevor's latest "the Normandy" had arrived.

I found it interesting and during these past 2 weeks I've read Beevor's "Crete" and "Stalingrad" books as well.

What is common in these books is that Beevor tries to present a balanced view from both sides and does not paint all the soldiers with the same brush.

That goes for the Soviets too.

I'm trying to find the Berlin book next.

Egorka
10-14-2009, 04:57 PM
Hopping for some input from Flamethrowerguy I will first try to present what I have on the topic of numerical estimate of the number of rape victims in Germany at the end of WW2.

First I will present the fruit of my own mind, i.e. I nowhere else saw similar approach to this topic. But maybe I just did look good enough... Anyways, after that, in a new port following after some days, I will present what I know from others who critically but sensibly approached the issue of how number 2M victims came around.


So lets start with my thoughts on the numerical estimate, which I will try to present here shortly and clearly. To the best of my abilities.

Sinopsys: In the war of the scale of WW2 one may expect the increase of the crime rates, incl. rape crime. Ask your self now, before reading further, how many times the rape crime rate went up? ... We are speaking East Front now only, right.
2-fold? 10-fold? 50-fold? 100-fold? 1000-fold?
What is a realistic estimate of this increase coefficient? ...
Keep this in mind and read further.

Goal: Develop approach to estimate the lowest and the highest level of rape assaults by Soviet citizens in Western Europe.

Method: Find the rape crime rate in the relevant male population in peace time. Then apply the statisticaly known peace time rate (see below) to the population in question (All Soviet citizens in Western Europe at the end of WW2). The result - the lowest estimate.
Now, during the war this figure would increase. How many time? Remember the question above?
So the highest estimate is the peace time level multiplied by increase coefficient. Right?

Calculation:
In 1997 the number of rape cases was about 50.000 a year. This figure includes latent crimes. Back then Russia's population was 147,9M people, 46,7% of which were males of all ages. Without male children - 55.255.440 men which commit about 50.000 rape crimes a year. Hense rape crime rate: 905 rapes per Million men per year.

But now we have to find how many Soviet sitezen males were in Western Europe at the time in question, lets say 1 year. From August 1944 til August 1945.
The number we are looking for consists of few parts:

5,9M - RKKA soldiers in service, average # during the period.
1,1M - RKKA soldiers who died in service, total # during the period.
1,0M - Other servicemen: NKVD, Railroad workers and such.
1,85M - "Ostarbejder" males.
1,0M - Soviet POW who survived the captivity.


So the total # of men who actually phisicaly was present in Western Europe is about 10,85M men.
Though, we should remember that not all of them were either present there the whole period (RKKA, NKVD) or had an opportunity to commit a crime during the whole period (Ostarbejder, POW). Therefore we have to weight these figure with a time coeffitient. The result is as following:

0,92 for RKKA. (gradual increase during first 3 months, the rest is on the max level)
0,25 for KIA. (the losses distributed evenly across 6 months)
0,92 for NKVD, Railroad and other servicemen. (the same as for RKKA)
0,15 for "Ostarbejder" males. (about 60 days between liberation and repatriation to USSR)
0,15 for POW. (the same as for "Ostarbejder")

The result is:
7.050.500 manyears = (0,92 х 5.900.000 + 0,25 х 1.100.000 + 0,92 х 1.000.000 + 0,15 х 1.850.000 + 0,15 х 1.000.000)

Result:
Now we know how many men, potential rapist, spent a year in Europe and we also know the rape crime rate of these men.
Hense we calculate the lowest level in peace time - 6.380 rape crimes.

For highest level estimate for the war time we will not forget about the increase coefficient. The result can be presented as a table:


coef. rape cases
10 63.799
30 191.397
50 318.996
100 637.991
300 1.913.974

This is not perfect way, but it gives fuel for thinking.

So you can for your self deside what is a more realistic number for such coefficient. What value did you think about at the beging of the post, before reading the calculation and conclusion?

Keep in mind that in all the cases I was trying to interpret the doubt NOT in the favour of the Soviet citizens. Otherwise all questions are welcome. I can back up more or less all the numbers I used here.

Nickdfresh
10-14-2009, 05:05 PM
I've been a bit slow reading this as I've been busy with other things such as work and sports. But I'm at the end and will post some of my own thoughts soon...

Deaf Smith
10-15-2009, 09:40 PM
I bet DNA test on those who come foward could show some evidence. Especially if the Red unit stationed there was known and the members were still alive.

Will it happen? No. Russia would never cooperate.

Deaf

Chevan
10-16-2009, 12:53 AM
Calculation:
In 1997 the number of rape cases was about 50.000 a year. This figure includes latent crimes. Back then Russia's population was 147,9M people, 46,7% of which were males of all ages. Without male children - 55.255.440 men which commit about 50.000 rape crimes a year. Hense rape crime rate: 905 rapes per Million men per year.

I think this interesting statistical method is pretty clear for ...peace time, Igor.
Actualy there is a certain persentage of males in any society , inclined to violence, sadism and partly to rapings.This statistical value is not a constant , it strongly depend of social circumstances, like a war , disaster and ets.
By my mind, any man own the beast inside. Who know the limits when my best will go out:)
I hope not to learn it ever.
Usially people don't know when their beast out.But it happend sometimes with some ones.
During the war, especialy ww2, especialy on the East we know a lot of cases when ordinary soldiers commiting the crimes , were enjoying the sadism (http://images.google.ru/imglanding?imgurl=http://img15.nnm.ru/b/0/0/9/a/54a05acd365ca6b45a7caac4f30.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D52924&usg=__bZyHCvJyhSOEfEj0ED0qgu06EG8%3D&h=384&w=600&sz=42&hl=ru&um=1&tbnid=hZeLTE7b8nSzdM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%25D1%2584%25D0%25BE%25D1%2582%25D0%2 5BE%2B%25D0%25BF%25D1%2580%25D0%25B5%25D1%2581%25D 1%2582%25D1%2583%25D0%25BF%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B5%25D 0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B9%2B%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B5% 25D1%2580%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B0%25D1%2585%25D1%2582% 25D0%25B0%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Dru%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%2 6start%3D20%26um%3D1%26newwindow%3D1&q=%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BE+%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%8 1%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9+ %D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%85%D1%82%D0%B0&ndsp=20&lr=&sa=N&start=28&um=1&newwindow=1#).
I don't really think at all the war-time law consider , say the execution of own deserters , as a crime.
I can't imagine such a big scale sadism during a peace time.
The rate of crimes should be obvioulsy much highter when the war is .
We can't to apply the contemporary crime statistic to ww2 era by that simple calculation.

Chevan
10-16-2009, 01:10 AM
I bet DNA test on those who come foward could show some evidence. Especially if the Red unit stationed there was known and the members were still alive.

Will it happen? No. Russia would never cooperate.

Deaf
Why is not?
I m not against the true investigation ( if it possible) of testimonies of any case of crimes.
Also i stand at point- the all the criminals should carry the punishment. I do really think that the punishment of real murders might to improve the mutial relation and trust of nations. Deprives their ultra-right extemists the life-food for political speculations.
Of course if it will be the more or less objective investigation, not in form of pro-goebbels race-hate fary tells kinda "Mongols-bolshevics hordes come to kill and rape the poor germans";) . like mentioned above mr Bevour try to develop.

Egorka
10-16-2009, 02:17 AM
I think this interesting statistical method is pretty clear for ...peace time, Igor.
Actualy there is a certain persentage of males in any society , inclined to violence, sadism and partly to rapings.This statistical value is not a constant , it strongly depend of social circumstances, like a war , disaster and ets.
By my mind, any man own the beast inside. Who know the limits when my best will go out:)
I hope not to learn it ever.
Usially people don't know when their beast out.But it happend sometimes with some ones.
During the war, especialy ww2, especialy on the East we know a lot of cases when ordinary soldiers commiting the crimes , were enjoying the sadism (http://images.google.ru/imglanding?imgurl=http://img15.nnm.ru/b/0/0/9/a/54a05acd365ca6b45a7caac4f30.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D52924&usg=__bZyHCvJyhSOEfEj0ED0qgu06EG8%3D&h=384&w=600&sz=42&hl=ru&um=1&tbnid=hZeLTE7b8nSzdM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%25D1%2584%25D0%25BE%25D1%2582%25D0%2 5BE%2B%25D0%25BF%25D1%2580%25D0%25B5%25D1%2581%25D 1%2582%25D1%2583%25D0%25BF%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B5%25D 0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B9%2B%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B5% 25D1%2580%25D0%25BC%25D0%25B0%25D1%2585%25D1%2582% 25D0%25B0%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Dru%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%2 6start%3D20%26um%3D1%26newwindow%3D1&q=%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BE+%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%8 1%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9+ %D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%85%D1%82%D0%B0&ndsp=20&lr=&sa=N&start=28&um=1&newwindow=1#).
I don't really think at all the war-time law consider , say the execution of own deserters , as a crime.
I can't imagine such a big scale sadism during a peace time.
The rate of crimes should be obvioulsy much highter when the war is .
We can't to apply the contemporary crime statistic to ww2 era by that simple calculation.
These are for the most relevant points you make. Applying rape crime statistics of 1997 to the year 1945 is not the 100% correct, but on the positive side it is better than guessing. So acknoledging that this bit can be improved if possible, I do not think that it affects result in noticeably.
Besides, the indications are that the number of rapes in peace time in 1997 was actually higher than in the 1940-s, which is also OK for our purpose as we are more conserned not to underestimate. So this bit should be in order.

On the other hand, I think you misunderstood the meaning of the part that you quoted in your post. The value 905 rapes per Million men per year IS the expected PEACE time level rape crime rate in population of Russian Federation. This whould the lower estimate. This means that in the war time I can only expect this value to rise. Since we can not for sure calculate the value for this increase, we can instead present the result as a table where there is only ONE variable. This make analisys of the result much more simple.


BTW the original entry is in my Russian blog entry: "The revenge of the Victors (http://egorka-datskij.livejournal.com/67885.html)". There were also some objections this approach from both pro-Soviet and very anti-Soviet/Russian people.

Egorka
10-16-2009, 02:25 AM
I bet DNA test on those who come foward could show some evidence. Especially if the Red unit stationed there was known and the members were still alive.
Will it happen? No. Russia would never cooperate.
Deaf
Russia? It takes cooperation of Ex-Soviet territory individuals involved, not Russia.
Besides DNA analisys of German person in question can reveal clues even without cooperation from Russian side. It is possible to see if the persons DNA has patterns caracteristic to sertain nation.

Rising Sun*
10-16-2009, 03:46 AM
I bet DNA test on those who come foward could show some evidence. Especially if the Red unit stationed there was known and the members were still alive.

DNA testing will prove very little.

Most of the victims, and most of the perpetrators, would probably be dead by now.

DNA testing of their descendants would prove only parentage, not rape.

Allegations of rape by women who became inconveniently pregnant in that era, and not just in Germany, could just as easily be a smokescreen for consensual relationships which produced an unwanted pregnancy.

Nobody likely to be guilty of rape is going to consent to a DNA test.

If Russia 'cooperated' by forcing DNA tests on its surviving WWII servicemen that would just as likely produce allegations from anti-communist / anti-Russian elements in the West that the compulsory tests demonstrates that there is still no freedom in Russia. If it doesn't it's presented as not wanting to get to the truth. Either way, Russia can't win.

Nickdfresh
10-16-2009, 12:12 PM
There is also some indication that the children born of such forced unions of Soviet soldiers and German women were simply left at orphanages or otherwise abandoned. Secondly, it is believed that most pregnancies were terminated via abortions. In both cases, German women were fearful of being outcasts or of their returning lovers/husbands never accepting what happened...

flamethrowerguy
10-16-2009, 12:28 PM
Of course the frequency of rapes in times of war is much higher than in peace time. Susan Brownmiller (allright, she is a radical hardcore feminist...) writes: "War provides men with the perfect psychological charter to give vent to their disrespect towards women."
Sander/Johr wrote in their book "BeFreier und Befreite":
"Beyond doubt war time rapes have a military meaning: they daunt the enemy and demoralise the victims." Now imagine mixing this with an excessive consumption of alcohol and the feelings of revenge for 3-4 years of terror on own soil. ("Within the brutal gang rapes lies the reversal of terror many Soviet citizens had to endure", Sander/Johr)
Susan Brownmiller points out the thousands of years old patriarchal tradition of women as a loot of war: from Helena in Troy, The Rape of the Sabine Women, French Huguenot Wars in the 16th century to today's conflicts like the Iraqis in Kuwait as well as the civil wars in Kongo, Uganda etc.

Just some basic thoughts here as a start.

flamethrowerguy
10-16-2009, 12:44 PM
There is also some indication that the children born of such forced unions of Soviet soldiers and German women were simply left at orphanages or otherwise abandoned. Secondly, it is believed that most pregnancies were terminated via abortions.

It's estimated the 5% of all children born in the German eastern territories in 1945/46 were "Russian's kids" (Russenkinder) as they were/are called. Another number says that 90% of the pregnancies caused by rape were aborted by that time.


In both cases, German women were fearful of being outcasts or of their returning lovers/husbands never accepting what happened...

That's right, there were break-ups, divorces and it even happened that a homecoming father forced his raped teenage daughter to suicide.

Egorka
10-16-2009, 01:31 PM
All the points mentioned by Flamethrowerguy and Chevan just previously are making sense and I more or less agree with them.

But I made this thread in hope to get some feedback on the question of the origins of the number widely in use now - 2 Million. I am hopping that Flamethrowerguy might show some German sources not widely known outside German speaking public.

Therfore those points are of less relevancy to the subject of this thread. I obviously don't mind you mentioning them here. Just saying it for the sake of satying in focuse.

You might wish to ask, but why, Igor, are you so concerned with "the number"?
Well I would like to answer with a quote from the mentioned previously book by Sander/Johr "BeFreier und Befreite" (We will have to return to this book many times in this thread). In my translation from Russian.


«I wanted to understand what means "many", when it is said that during the battle of Berlin in April-MAy 1945 there were many rapes. I wanted to understand what means "many" for a city which had 1,4 mil women, and what means "many" for the female refuges from the Eastern German territories.
...
Independently from the fact that every rape is a horrific itself, it is namely the total number that gives it historical significance, affects the society as a whole. But this number is not known. The intent to find this total number met most resistance. But without this number cause-effect relation of many historical events remains in blur.»

flamethrowerguy
10-16-2009, 03:08 PM
We got the two basic numbers: 100000 raped women in the greater Berlin area and 2 million German women in total. Again, these numbers mean raped women, not single rapes. Most women had to endure several abuses. German sources call these minimum numbers which are probably exceeded.
Egorka, in your original post (and on the photo site) you called Sander/Johr a reliable source in contrary to Beevor and German Dr. Gerhard Reichling (the guy who examined the documents of these two Berlin hospitals).
Actually Sander/Johr got their numbers from Reichling's investigations. Beevor borrowed the numbers from Sander/Johr.
As we mentioned before it is impossible to get exact numbers since most culprits and victims weren't anxious to tell. Dr. Reichling uses estimates and extrapolations - if we like that or not, these are approved measures of historic research and sometimes the only ones.
I'm going to search the sources now and try to make Reichling's calculations lucid...

Egorka
10-16-2009, 03:55 PM
We got the two basic numbers: 100000 raped women in the greater Berlin area and 2 million German women in total. Again, these numbers mean raped women, not single rapes. Most women had to endure several abuses. German sources call these minimum numbers which are probably exceeded.
Egorka, in your original post (and on the photo site) you called Sander/Johr a reliable source in contrary to Beevor and German Dr. Gerhard Reichling (the guy who examined the documents of these two Berlin hospitals).
Actually Sander/Johr got their numbers from Reichling's investigations. Beevor borrowed the numbers from Sander/Johr.
As we mentioned before it is impossible to get exact numbers since most culprits and victims weren't anxious to tell. Dr. Reichling uses estimates and extrapolations - if we like that or not, these are approved measures of historic research and sometimes the only ones.
I'm going to search the sources now and try to make Reichling's calculations lucid...
Right, right.
I am just in the middle of writing the next bit of info about how Johr came to her numbers. Just give me half an hour or something.

I know about exactly the same source chain: Beevor - Johr - Reichling.

Right now I am writing on Johr. But I also have info on Reichling's numbers and will present it here later.

Egorka
10-16-2009, 04:43 PM
Now I will try to present what I know about the origins of the number of rape victims "2 Million women in Gemrany".

Important note:
this part is based on this Russian blog entry http://labas.livejournal.com/771672.html
Though I am in accord with the reasoning of the author, I unfortunately can not verify myself his factual side. This is because he uses a lot of German source which I can not read my self due lack of the German language skills. Therefor I can not wouch 100% for the following, but I am still rather confident that the following doesn't contain deliberate falacies.

A.Beevor in his "Berlin The Downfall 1945" announced the number "2 Millions". I repeat again that Beevor didn't calculate it himself. Indeed the whole paragraph where he mentiones both "100 thousands of rape victims in Berlin" and "2 Mill. raped German women" is refferenced by the page 54 and 59 of the book "BeFreier und Befreite" (Libirators and Liberated) by by Helke Sander and Barbara Johr.

If we look into "BeFreier und Befreite" we find a dedicated chapter/article by Barbara Johr called "Events in numbers" (pp.46-73) where the author calculates the total number of rape in Germany 1945. Their result is the well known 2 million victims. So how did they do that? Lets see together.


Barbara Johr's method. About 110.000 victims in Berlin:

The number of victims in Berlin is based on the statistics of just one clinique, namely "Empress Augusta Vicktoria" childrens clinique (Kaiserin Auguste Victoria Haus - Kinderklinik).

Here is the scan of the table from the book. (http://pics.livejournal.com/labas/pic/000h1a09)

From this table we see that in 1945 there were born 12 (or 13, including a case marked as questionable) children whose farthers were "Russians". That is 12 (or 13) out of total 237 children who were monitored in the clinique.
For 1946 the number are as following: 20 (or 21) children were with "Russian" fathers out of total 567 monitored.

On the basis of this table (http://pics.livejournal.com/labas/pic/000h2hf7), Johr postulates that in case of a rape pregnancy followed in 20% of cases, i.e. 118 out of 514.

After this Johr does the following calculation:

The official Berlin statistics states 23124 newborn in the period of Sept.1945 - Aug.1946. According to "Empress Augusta Vicktoria" stats the farthers of 5% of these babies were "Russians". 5% of 23124 = 1156.
90% pregnant victims got abortion. This means 1156*10 = 11560 women victims.
After a rape the chances for a victim to get pregnant were 20%, hense there were raped 11560*5 = 57800 women.
At that time Berlin housed 600 thousands women of fertile age (18-45 y.o.). Then 57800/600000 = 9,5% of them were raped.
Appart from women mentioned in point 4, there were also women of other ages. Girls of 14-18 y.o. and older then 45 y.o. Their total number was 800 thousands women. If we assume that 9,5% of them were raped too, this gives us 73300 additional victims.
Thus out of 1,4 Million female population of Berlin between Spring and Autumn 1945 were raped from 94450 to 131100 women. In average 110000+ victims.

Here are these 6 points scanned from the book. (http://pics.livejournal.com/labas/pic/000h3thw)


Criticism of Johr's calculation:
I. The whole calculation is based on the data of only one clinique - "Kaiserin Auguste Victoria Haus". It is immpossible to oversee that at the base of the number of thousands and thousands (110.000) victims lais practicaly single instances. F.ex. if we account 9 children in "questionable cases" as "Russian" then there will be 22 "Russian children" out of 237 (9%). This will at the end increase the Berlin number from 110K to 198K in one go.

II. In the first table the line "Father Russian" and "Father Russian/rape" are two different ones. But Johr adds them up together. This is discussible. Though the reason is probably Johr understands term "rape" is it's most widest form. Dating Soviet officer for benefits - rape.
Anyway, according the words in the clinique documentation the number of children born after rape were 5+4 = 9 out of 804 (1945 and 1946), i.e. 1,1%.
If we take this number as a base then the total Berlin number suddenly would drop from 110K to 24K in just one go.
Johr's logic applied without consideration whoud f.ex. give us that other Allied forces only in 1945 raped 50.000 women (5+1+1+4+2 out of 567 gives us 2,2% victims).

III. Johr statement tat 90% of pregnancies after rape were terminated by abortion are not backed up by anything except that people say there were "many" abortions. Johr doesn't explain why many in this case means 90%.
In th mean while the data for the women clinique in Charite, uqoted by Johr, showes 40 abortion out of 118, i.e. 34%. Not 90%. So if we change just this, then the totsal Berlin number goes from 110K to 16K victims.

IV. Undoubtably the peak of the raping occured in April-MAy 1945. Then one could expect peak of births of "Russian children" in Jan-Feb 1946. But according to the data for "Kaiserin Auguste Victoria Haus" there were born more "Russian children" in 1945 than in 1946. How can it be? If these are the children of refugees, then they should not be accounted in Berlin statistics.

V. The logic of Johr's point 5 is plain and simple and can be shortly expressed: They raped everyone from 8 to 80. Such logic beyond good and eveil and deffinately beyond impartial research.

In my opinion such approach where one can play with number the way he wants and where single cases lead to result change by many-many thousands is not the right one.
Any comments and input are welcome!

To be continued: about the total number of victims in Germany, i.e. 2 Millions.

Egorka
10-18-2009, 06:01 PM
Important note:
this part is based on this Russian blog entry http://labas.livejournal.com/772585.html
Though I am in accord with the reasoning of the author, I unfortunately can not verify myself his factual side. This is because he uses a lot of German source which I can not read my self due lack of the German language skills. Therefore I can not vouch 100% for the following, but I am still rather confident that the following doesn't contain deliberate fallacies.

On the total number of rape victims in Germany, i.e. 2 Million women.

In the book "BeFreier und Befreite" B.Johr writes the following (my translation from Russian, i.e. quote may not be 100% exact):
B.Johr: "Doctor Gerhard Reichling, a statistician and an expert on the population losses, was the first one who estimated the total number of women raped on the territories of Soviet occupation, in the German Eastern territories and during the exodus. For several decades he was professionally involved in international work on the issues of German refugees and their reintegration and their war losses. He is not concerned with politics ... as a statistician he comments his work as following: «Statisticians have to be neutral... It is scientifically correct to announce a lower estimate.» His work is based on comprehensive analysis of the German as well as international sources. Because the sources he used are fragmentary he does not claim more then just publication of order of magnitude."
Reichling's estimates are presented by Johr in the table.

Here is the scan of the table with Reichling's data from the book. (http://pics.livejournal.com/labas/pic/000h5sea)

If we look through this table we will find the following data on the rape victims.

1 Million German women-refugees survivors from East Prussia, East Pomerania, East Brandenburg and Silesia were raped by Soviet soldiers, i.e. 20,8% of 4.805.000 women.
220 thousand of German women raped among those who remained on the territories outside of USSR, i.e. 16,2% of 1.360.000 women.
180 thousand German women were raped and later perished for some reason. (out of total 766.00 women)
500 thousand women raped in the Soviet occupation zone and in Berlin, i.e. 7,5% of total 6.669.000 women.
100 thousand of women raped in Berlin, i.e. 6,7% of total 1.495.600 women.

Summing up all these numbers gives us: 1.000.000 + 220.000 + 180.000 + 500.000 + 100.000 = 2.000.000 women. Reichling also states that there were born 292.000 children as the result of rape.

The comments on this table are fery few. And Johr presents no information what so ever about the sources that Reighling used to make this data table. In the commentary section no sources are named either, instead it literally says: "At present time Dr.Reighling is a director of the international society for the research on refugees issues. He is the author of numerous writings (see his bibliography)."

From the Reighling's bibliography we can see that he wrote 3 statistical works on the topic of refugees: in 1949, in 1958, and the final one, in 2 volume «Die Deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen» («German refugees in numbers») in 1986-89.
These 2 volumes consists of a large number of main statistical tables as well as even more secondary data tables. All of that is meticulously commented and referenced. The information is shedding light on all possible aspects of refugee's lives: religion demographics, number of killed refugees, number of refugees working for German state, number of refugees having own enterprise and so on. One can also find in the Reichling's book some data that is presented on Johr's table inside frames. F.ex. 11.926.000 refugees settled in the Western occupation zone and 1.640.000 refugees perished as the result of expulsion. These are exactly the same in both books. Some others are sort of the same (Total German population on East affected by war: Johr 18.640.000 versus Reichling 18.140.000 (v.1, p.30)).

But rape is not at all discussed the Reichling's 2 volume book. In fact, the word "rape" is not to be found on the pages. In the Reighling's 2 volume book every table is followed by long (15 - 20 lines of small text) list of references and data source, which served as a base for a given statistical table. In the Johr's article this source list is absent. Johr only writes that the sources are German and international and sporadic (lьckenhaft). Because Dr. R.Reichling has unfortunately already passed away, chances that these sources would be made public are very slim.


Criticism of the result:
Any statistical result has to be made available together with the list of data sources which served as its base. Concealing the list of sources makes interpretation of the result impossible and the results themselves untrustworthy.

Barbara Johr does not see an apparent contradiction in the data she presents on 2 adjacent pages. According to her in Berlin 1945-46 were born about 1 thousand "Russian children", whereas according to Reichling in whole Germany 232 thousand "Russian children". That is 1 thousand in the capital city and 291 thousand outside of it? That is nonsense! Because Johr tries to use at least some kind of source to back up her result (Empress Augusta Vicktoria clinic), then it would seem logical to think that Reichlings data is exaggerated, and very much so.

There is another vivid contradiction that is overseen by Johr. She postulates that in Berlin 90% women got abortion and that chances to get pregnant after rape were 20%. Using these 2 coefficients Johr then acheives number of more than 110.000 victims for Berlin.
The problem is that with these coefficients 2 Million raped women would give birth to only 40.000 children, not 292.000. Or other way around: 292K bourn after rape children would mean that 14,6 Million women were raped!?!?!? Johr does not notice that.


Summary:
Introduced by R.Reighling, retranslated by B.Johr and later A.Beevor number of rape victims in Germany is not backed up any evidence, and based on unknown sources. The fact that their numeric result is being widely spread by media is either ill intent or a historical anecdote.

Chevan
10-19-2009, 01:40 AM
On the other hand, I think you misunderstood the meaning of the part that you quoted in your post. The value 905 rapes per Million men per year IS the expected PEACE time level rape crime rate in population of Russian Federation. This whould the lower estimate. This means that in the war time I can only expect this value to rise. Since we can not for sure calculate the value for this increase, we can instead present the result as a table where there is only ONE variable. This make analisys of the result much more simple.

It can't make the analisys simple, Igor.
The table endeed just point the some abstract coef which is supposed for war time- 30, 50 or 300.
It might be 3000 and you can't know for sure.
I suggest you the another simple statistical method.
As it is pointed by flamethrowerguy, the Gerhard Reichling claims there were about 100 000 of victims in Berlin and 2 mln on all the rest East GErmany.
Lets just culculate the simple coef of Rad army rapings of population that suffer on soviet zone for period 1945-1946.
Say we know for sure the 1945 population of BErlin was 3 mln of civils.
coeff of rapings = 100 thousands/3mln=0,033
This might be an abstract coeff that indicates what percentage of local population which were raped by red army . We might to assume this value is equal for Berlin and for rest of Eastern zone of Germany. COz hardly the Red Army behaved differ there:)
So lets take this value as constant.
Now if we take the figure 2 million of raped all over East GErmany- lets culculate the supposed population of Eatstern zone under Red Army controll = 2 mln/0,033 = 60 mln.
Opps!!!
There were NEVER 60 mln of civil population in Pomerania, Silesia and Berlin district( even if you add the Austria).

Barbara Johr does not see an apparent contradiction in the data she presents on 2 adjacent pages. According to her in Berlin 1945-46 were born about 1 thousand "Russian children", whereas according to Reichling in whole Germany 232 thousand "Russian children". That is 1 thousand in the capital city and 291 thousand outside of it?
That's exactly what i mean.
If do admit the datas of Berlin hospitals you never will get the 2 mln in rest GErmany.

If we look through this table we will find the following data on the rape victims.
1 Million German women-refugees survivors from East Prussia, East Pomerania, East Brandenburg and Silesia were raped by Soviet soldiers, i.e. 20,8% of 4.805.000 women.

Stop here.
Firstly. Where has they got the 4.8 mln of GErman population in 45?This mean the total population of those zone up to 8 mln.It was probably pre-war datas.
Let me introduce the little interesting dialog that had occured in Potsdam conference of allies.


http://grachev62.narod.ru/stalin/confer/chapt27.htm
Черчилль. Еще одно замечание – относительно заявления генералиссимуса Сталина о том, что все немцы покинули эти районы. Имеются другие данные, которые говорят о том, что там все-таки осталось 2–2,5 миллиона немцев. Конечно, эти цифры следовало бы еще проверить.

Сталин. Я согласен, что некоторые затруднения со снабжением Германии имеются, но главными виновниками этих затруднений являются сами немцы. Война привела к тому, что из этих 8 миллионов немцев там никого почти не осталось. Возьмите Штеттин; там было 500 тысяч населения, а когда мы вошли в Штеттин, там осталось всего 8 тысяч.

В Восточной Пруссии немцы поступили так: большая часть ушла на запад, в тыл к своим войскам, другая часть ушла в район Кенигсберга, к русским. Когда мы пришли в ту зону, которая предназначалась для приращения польской территории, там из немцев никого не осталось, остались одни поляки. Вот как обернулось дело.

В зоне между Одером и Вислой немцы бросили свои поля, поля обрабатываются и убираются поляками. Едва ли поляки согласятся отдать немцам то, что они обработали. Вот какое положение создалось в этих районах.

-------------------------------------
Churchill:
we have the datas- there should be 2-2,5 mln of germans in areas, occuped by Red Army and that should be handed to Poland( East Prussia, Pomerania and Upper Silezia- my comments) Sure it might be unreliable, it need to be the checked.
Stalin:
There is no germans there now. From 8 mln of pre-war population the alsmot all are fled.
Take a look at Stettin. There were 500 000 of population , when we had come there- the only 8 000 remained.
In Eastern Prussia the majority of GErman population fled with retreating german army, the big part fled to Kenigsberg to soviet zone.( why? probablty they trying to avoid the "polish revenge") When we came there, there were almost no germans. All had gone.
In zone between Vistula and Oder the germans leaved their farms, poles has come and work now there.

I do not bet the all the germans has fled out of there, but the fact is a fact- since 1944 the local population leaved those ares. We know for sure - THERE WERE never 8 mln in pomerania, silezia and Prussia in 1945.
Becose those areas has survived the demographic catastrophe since at least end of 1944. The millions has fled from there .The millions were forcedly deported lated( BTW the first deportations has began in march 1945)
The another serious objection against that phony statistic is that the population of Silezia and Pomerania was treated bad and soon deported by ...polish authorities.
Poles took active participation in violence toward the former GErmans civils.Raping and murdering including.
So hardly some one might be in point to hang all the 1 mln of supposed female victims exclusively on red army. This is quite wrong.
P.S. the 1 mln of raped in Prussia is pretty phantastic figure? that can't be supproted by any real statistic.
Also the intentions to hang all the commited crimes on Red Army is a false on definition.The Eastern GErman population suffered much in POland and Chehoslovackia as well.

Chevan
10-19-2009, 04:48 AM
II. In the first table the line "Father Russian" and "Father Russian/rape" are two different ones. But Johr adds them up together. This is discussible. Though the reason is probably Johr understands term "rape" is it's most widest form. Dating Soviet officer for benefits - rape.

Actualy, how can we separate the direct acts of raping and say, the forced prostitution?
Indeed there were widespread a form of forced prostitution.And hardly they used a conceptratives. Woman needs for for their children, many did it voluntary.The post-war Berlin was a hell where people suffer from lack of food.

Egorka
10-19-2009, 06:12 AM
It can't make the analisys simple, Igor.
Yes, it does, Chevan. :)
This technique is called Sensitivity analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_analysis).


The table endeed just point the some abstract coef which is supposed for war time- 30, 50 or 300.
It might be 3000 and you can't know for sure.
Exactly. I can not be sure about the value of this increase in war time. That is why the result is not a single number, but a matrix. This is completely sound scientific approach. It is a sort of sanity checker.

I nowhere claimed that my method would give answer. I only said it would give a sefference scale for further analysis.



Firstly. Where has they got the 4.8 mln of GErman population in 45?This mean the total population of those zone up to 8 mln. It was probably pre-war datas.
According to Reichling (see table) in 1950 there remained 14.296.000 Germans in the Soviet Occupied Zone (6.669.000 women, 4.749.000 men, 2.878.000 children). Reichling postulates that 500.000 of these women were raped.


Actualy, how can we separate the direct acts of raping and say, the forced prostitution?
Indeed there were widespread a form of forced prostitution.And hardly they used a conceptratives. Woman needs for for their children, many did it voluntary.The post-war Berlin was a hell where people suffer from lack of food.Yes, forced prostitution is no good thing... But is not completely black and white issue either. That is why I wrote that it has to be done with sertain consideration. Else according to the documentation used by Johr other allies raped 50.000 women in Berlin in 1945. Is that reasonable to think?

Nickdfresh
10-19-2009, 06:19 AM
So how many German women were raped? And are the numbers of Soviet dead in the Great Patriotic War all exaggerations or lies too? Because I hear a lot of Germans don't want to believe that their forefathers committed atrocities in Russia, and if we apply the same standard of proof for said deaths - then Neonazi apologists can just as easily dismiss said figures based on the silly logic and statements being made in this thread. :rolleyes:

Chevan
10-19-2009, 06:23 AM
That's right, there were break-ups, divorces and it even happened that a homecoming father forced his raped teenage daughter to suicide.
It's not at all.
i found out an worthwhile report of NKVD officer about mass "suicide" of germans families.
The original source (http://militera.lib.ru/docs/da/berlin_45/08.html) in russian , so i try to translate.


Донесение начальника 7-го отдела политуправления 2-го Белорусского фронта начальнику 7-го управления Главного Политического Управления РККА об умерврщлении фашистом граждан немецкой национальности

2 апреля 1945 г.{83}

При прочесывании населенных пунктов в районе огневых позиций 94-го гаубичного артполка 23-й артдивизии 12 марта 1945 года вблизи деревни Зюбитц (22 км от города Данцига) в лесу в отдельном сарае были обнаружены три немецкие семьи из деревни Зюбитц, всего 16 человек, а именно:

1. Бюхенен Фрида (возраст не установлен)
2. Губерт — ее сын, 7 лет
3. Гейнц — ее сын, 6 лет
4. Морбин — ее сын, 5 лет
5. Гарри — ее сын, 2,5 года
6. Шварц Эрвин — 37 лет
7. Шварц Эрика, его жена — 39 лет
8. Петер — их сын, 6 лет
9. Карин — их сын, 5 лет
10. Вольфган — их сын, 2,5 года
11. Лере Берта — 39 лет
12. Бруно — ее сын, 7 лет
13. Герберт — ее сын, 14 лет
14. Линиял — 40 лет
15. Гизелла — ее дочь, 15 лет
16. Эйверелах Эмген — ее племянница, 2 года.
Из них Лере Бруно, Лере Герберт, Линиял Гизелла и Эйверелах Эмген оказались мертвыми, т. к. у них было перерезано горло, а у остальных 12 человек вскрыты вены на обеих руках, но в момент обнаружения они еще были живы.

При оказании им медицинской помощи они отказывались от помощи, заявляя: «Лучше умереть, чем жить с русскими».

К вечеру 12 марта 1945 года умерло 11 человек: семеро детей и четыре женщины.

Расследованием установлено, что убийство указанных лиц было совершено Шварцем Эрвином, 1908 года рождения, уроженцем дер. Зюбитц, по национальности [212] немцем, членом партии национал-социалистов с 1933 г., образование 7 классов, женат, работал авиамотористом на аэродроме в г. Гдыня.

На допросе он показал: «К приходу русских войск по месту моего проживания я увидел, что все имущество потеряно и, будучи убежден в своей фашистской партии, начал действовать, чем мог, против русских войск. Поэтому 12 марта 1945 года своей жене и троим детям вскрыл вены на руках с целью уничтожения их. После убийства своей семьи я предложил [то же самое сделать] соседям, которые привели свои семьи в сарай и при моей помощи вскрыли вены, а затем я вскрыл вены и себе. Убийство 15 человек я совершил с целью, чтобы остальные немцы узнали и распространили слух, что все это совершили русские солдаты».

Оставшиеся в живых женщины подтвердили, что на умерщвление они согласились в результате агитации Шварца Эрвина, который и произвел вскрытие вен лезвием безопасной бритвы, а также перерезал горло 4 человекам.

Одна из женщин, оставшаяся в живых, Фрида Бохенен, показала, что она не желала резать руки, но когда Шварц ей насильно вскрыл вены, она потеряла сознание и не видела, что делалось с ее детьми.

Далее Фрида Бохенен показала, что Шварц ей говорил о том, что когда придет Красная Армия, то будет насиловать и угонять немцев в Сибирь, поэтому жить дальше нет никакого смысла.

В распространении провокационной агитации Шварцу активно помогала Лере Берта, которая после вскрытия вен умерла.

В тот же день в районе деревни Зюбитц в лесу в шалаше была обнаружена женщина-немка Лере Маргарита — 18 лет, со следами удушения на шее. Лере заявила, что ее душили красноармейцы и пытались изнасиловать.

В отношении этого заявления Лере Бохенен Фрида показала, что Лере Маргарита является дочерью Берты Лере и следы удушения у нее являются следствием ее попытки к самоубийству.

Несмотря на оказанную медицинскую помощь, Шварц Эрвин 15 марта 1945 года умер от потери крови, также умерли и все остальные лица, обнаруженные в сарае.

Начальник 7-го отдела ПУ 2 БФ подполковник Забаштанский
___________________________________________

Report of chief of 7-department ( political) of 2-nd belorussian front to chief of Political department of RKKA.
2 april 1945.
During the comb of wood near the position of 94-artillery howitzer regiment of 23 artillery division 12 march of 1945 near the village Zubitz( 22 km from city Dancig) in barn has been found the 3 german families , 16 persons , namely
-Buhenen Frida( age unknown)
-Gubert, her son ( age 7)
-Heinz, her son( age 6),
-Morbin , her son( age 5)
-Harry, her son( age 2,5 years)
-Shwartz Ervin ( age 37)
-Shwartz Ericka, his wife ( age 39)
-Peter, their son( age 6)
-Karin , their son( age 5)
-Wolfgan, their son ( age2,5)
-Lere Berga( age 39)
-Bruno,her son( age 7)
-Gerbert,herson( age 14)
-Liniajl , (age 40)
-Gizella, her daughter ( age 15)
-Awerelah Emgen ( age 2 )
four were dead, the rest 12 were found with cutted viens on both hands, but their were still alive.
They refused the first medical aid, shouting" better death , then live with Russians".
To the evening 12 march has died 11 - 4 woman and 7 children.
The investigation has established, the mass murdering has commited the Shwartz Ervin. He was a devoted member of National-socialist party, he voluntary has decided to kill all his family,by opening the viens .12 march he suggested the other two families to commit suicide together.
The survived woman confirmed, they were agree to commit suicide after the Ervin's "agitation". He personally also cut off throat of four persons.
Frida Bohenen didn't wish to cutt the viens and resisted but Ervin has done it by force. After that the Fridal lost the mind and didn't see what happend to their children.
Frida testimony, that Ervin inspired- when russians come, they will rape and kill everybody, the few surviviours will be moved to Syberia. SO there is no any sense to live longer.
Lere BErga ,Frida said,actively helped the Ervin in his agitation, who later cutted off the veins and died.
The same day, in forest , near the Zubitz were found the 18 years Lere Margarita, with marks of suffocation on neck. She claims that three rea army soldiers strangled her in attempt to rape.However the Frida Bohenen said , the Margarita was a daughter of Lera Berga and mark of suffocation is a resault of her attempt to suicide.
Inspite of medical aid ( forced) the Ervin Shwartz has died 15 march from Losing of blood.
the rest found in barn , also died till that day.
Chiefe of 7-department , leutenant-colonel Zabashtanskij

The terrible story of "suicide"( formally it was murdering of children).
5 fanatical madmans murdered 11 their children by their own hands.

Chevan
10-19-2009, 06:54 AM
Yes, it does, Chevan. :)
This technique is called Sensitivity analysis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitivity_analysis).

Oh sure, the KGB-developed analisys:D
That imply the working mathematical model.
Which only you alone know how to operate:)



According to Reichling (see table) in 1950 there remained 14.296.000 Germans in the Soviet Occupied Zone (6.669.000 women, 4.749.000 men, 2.878.000 children). Reichling postulates that 500.000 of these women were raped.

Well this look like a true.
I can admit there were 15 mln of germans in ALL Soviet zone, including Austria.500k might be really raped for a all period. Its quite wrong to claim, however, the fate all of them were determined by soviet authorities. In fact the post war deportation of germans were organized by Polish and CHehoslovakian authorities.Either the claim that 500k of woman were raped exclusively by Red Army is not correct.


Yes, forced prostitution is no good thing... But is not completely black and white issue either. That is why I wrote that it has to be done with sertain consideration. Else according to the documentation used by Johr other allies raped 50.000 women in Berlin in 1945. Is that reasonable to think?
Yes it does. The 100K is also resonable figure IMO.
But not 2 mln.
As i pointed out, the 100 000 raped in 3 mln Berlin lies in strong opposition to supposed 2 mln raped in all of 15 mln occuped Est Germany.

Chevan
10-19-2009, 07:38 AM
So how many German women were raped? And are the numbers of Soviet dead in the Great Patriotic War all exaggerations or lies too? Because I hear a lot of Germans don't want to believe that their forefathers committed atrocities in Russia, and if we apply the same standard of proof for said deaths - then Neonazi apologists can just as easily dismiss said figures based on the silly logic and statements being made in this thread. :rolleyes:
Why shall we care about Neonazi, Nick?
Do you claim those mind-defective people use any logic in their race-hate ideas?
Yes, they actualy in their mind has "dismissed" the jewish Holocaust a long time ago( the first thing that they usialy like to do ). And they don't really care whatever it was "correct" method or not.
And if a lot of GErmans still think that GErmany was a .... victims of foreign agressors and circumstances- i hope you will not to rewrite the official western point about who statrted the ww2 becouse of it, right?
Or you have an other opinion? :rolleyes:
We don't need to hide the red army crimes - we will only win if the real criminals will be judged.
But judge imply the investigation and studiing of testimonies.
The figure of 2 mln if EXACTLY THAT propogandic figure that actively is used NOW by Neonizis in west as justification of NS.You should be aware of it.

Egorka
10-19-2009, 08:27 AM
So how many German women were raped?I really don't know. IMO many-many thousands. Really many. But I don't know my self.
But now I know that Johr and Reichling didn't knew either even though they published their numbers.
But numbers have magic in them. Large numbers especially. At sertain point their become brands used to manipulate public opinion.


And are the numbers of Soviet dead in the Great Patriotic War all exaggerations or lies too?
Some of them are.


Because I hear a lot of Germans don't want to believe that their forefathers committed atrocities in Russia, and if we apply the same standard of proof for said deaths - then Neonazi apologists can just as easily dismiss said figures based on the silly logic and statements being made in this thread. :rolleyes:I agree, that is a relevant question to ask.
The differnece in this particular case would be (from the top of my head) that a) understanding exactly what the losses mean, i.e. out of 13,5M Soviet civilian victims, only 7,5M is atributed as "killed intentinally", this is including Holocaust victims too; b) on German side existed state driven ideological antipathy towards some parts of local population. On the Soviet side this deliberate anthipaty policy was not present. The alledged "Kill German" pamphlet by Ilya Ehrenburg was serving completely different purpose, though I agree that it backfired when RKKA entered Germany; c) During the war, the Gemran army spent longer time in USSR then Soviet in German territories.

Otherwise I would preffer if we could continue (if you wish so) this particular topic in another thread.

Rising Sun*
10-19-2009, 08:32 AM
So how many German women were raped? And are the numbers of Soviet dead in the Great Patriotic War all exaggerations or lies too? Because I hear a lot of Germans don't want to believe that their forefathers committed atrocities in Russia, and if we apply the same standard of proof for said deaths - then Neonazi apologists can just as easily dismiss said figures based on the silly logic and statements being made in this thread. :rolleyes:

Sounds about right to me.

Assumptions pulled out of the air and figures and calculations based on them and then used as a basis for 'sensitivity analysis' seem to lack sensitivity, and sense, to me.

So far as this thread is concerned, I couldn't give a fishy **** how many German women were raped by the Soviets, or by Americans or British or extra-terrestrials.

Any more than I care about the exact number of Jews exterminated by the Nazis or the exact number of Russian POWs killed or allowed to die by the Nazis.

Or the exact number of Poles or German POWS killed by the Soviets.

And so on.

Most European nations in WWII behaved like a bunch of ****s, and generally the further east they were the worse they behaved, ignoring the brilliantly brutal ****ishness of the ****s in parts of Yugoslavia which wasn't that far east.

Those peoples all bear the appropriate level of blame for their conduct and sympathy for their suffering.

So far as the degree of their evil is concerned, I really couldn't care if they had five thousand six hundred and ninety four or elebenty leben hairs on their ****s. They were still ****s.

Attempts at statistical guilt reduction, or increase, based on nonsensical arithmetic don't alter the fact that the Nazis were ****s in occupied territories and so were the Soviets.

Egorka
10-19-2009, 08:34 AM
That imply the working mathematical model.
Which only you alone know how to operate:)
That is not correct.
All the data I used is present in my post #18 (http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=161448&postcount=18). If you disagree with some of it, you should correct me. But the model is there, and it is explained. There are no hiden points in there.


Well this look like a true.
I can admit there were 15 mln of germans in ALL Soviet zone, including Austria.500k might be really raped for a all period. Its quite wrong to claim, however, the fate all of them were determined by soviet authorities. In fact the post war deportation of germans were organized by Polish and CHehoslovakian authorities.Either the claim that 500k of woman were raped exclusively by Red Army is not correct.I am not 100% sure, but my impression that Reichling does not actualy mean that all aleged 2M rapes were done exclusivly by Soviets.
But maybe Flamethrougherguy could help on this.


Yes it does. The 100K is also resonable figure IMO.When you say reasonable figure, you base it on what ground?

Egorka
10-19-2009, 08:44 AM
So far as this thread is concerned, I couldn't give a fishy **** how many German women were raped by the Soviets, or by Americans or British or extra-terrestrials.You don't give a **** and neither does the general public.
But the general public does give a **** about nice big round numbers like 2M.

Rising Sun*
10-19-2009, 08:50 AM
You don't give a **** and neither does the general public.
But the general public does give a **** about nice big round numbers like 2M.

If the general public doesn't give a ****, it doesn't give a **** what the figure is.

As for the figure being 2m, I haven't heard the general public giving a **** about that either, any more than they give a **** about the 6m Soviets who died and about which they are equally ignorant.

Egorka
10-19-2009, 08:57 AM
If the general public doesn't give a ****, it doesn't give a **** what the figure is.I did not say they would remember the actual number of 2M.
The only thing that would stuck in their heads is: they raped everyone from 8 to 80.

EDIT: As for me, I fully agree with B.Johr on that "Independently from the fact that every rape is a horrific itself, it is namely the total number that gives it historical significance, affects the society as a whole."

Nickdfresh
10-19-2009, 09:50 AM
Why shall we care about Neonazi, Nick?
Do you claim those mind-defective people use any logic in their race-hate ideas?
Yes, they actualy in their mind has "dismissed" the jewish Holocaust a long time ago( the first thing that they usialy like to do ). And they don't really care whatever it was "correct" method or not.
And if a lot of GErmans still think that GErmany was a .... victims of foreign agressors and circumstances- i hope you will not to rewrite the official western point about who statrted the ww2 becouse of it, right?

I don't speak for anyone else but myself and I think for the most part I try to adhere to what is orthodox history as that is what I generally believe to be correct. Firstly, I was the one that shut down the picture precipitating this thread largely because I do not want to here about which Soviet Red Army members raped whom just as I do not want to see comments on how many villagers a German squad murdered every time I see a pic of German Heer. And the way to counter false, idiotic Nazi-**** claims is to counter them with the truth. That while I am sorry that German women were raped, and some Germans were summarily executed for any ties to the SS by Soviet soldiers, I would also understand the Russian thirst for revenge and of humiliation of the German society that invaded them and caused catastrophic suffering to the Russians and other Soviet peoples of unfathomable proportions. I'm also sorry that German civilians were firebombed or otherwise killed by Western Allied bombing. But I will not quibble nor make things up in order to engage in a battle of fascist vs. stalinist propaganda and revisionist, apologist histories. Nor do any of the Allied atrocities in anyway justify the conduct of the Third Reich who started the awful mess to begin with and began murdering, raping, and firebombing population centers before any of the Allied belligerents did...

Beevor himself, as the man detested by many Russians, says the Germans deserve no special considerations and while their suffering in regrettable, they are not in the same status of victimhood as the Jews, peoples of the former USSR, Yugoslavs, Italians, Belgians, French, and pretty much anyone else certain elements of the German machine (and their collaborators of various nationalities who were numerous and varied) decided to terrorize...

Beevor also states clearly at several points in his book, at least three times that I recall, that NOT ALL Red Army soldiers were rapists. In fact, he points out that few of the advance elements of Red Army infantry and armor troops --the ones who suffered the most deprivation-- committed rapes as they simply didn't have time to much more than grab a watch....


Or you have an other opinion? :rolleyes:
We don't need to hide the red army crimes - we will only win if the real criminals will be judged.
But judge imply the investigation and studiing of testimonies.
The figure of 2 mln if EXACTLY THAT propogandic figure that actively is used NOW by Neonizis in west as justification of NS.You should be aware of it.

What's the point of any of that? The basic impulse here is to acknowledge that this whole shitty, inhuman episode happened so maybe everyone will think twice about allowing it to happen again.

And the Neonazis are the same losers who worship people who mostly ran and abandoned the German military and civil populations they thoroughly ****ed as they left behind the average German civilians and soldiers to face the wrath of the Red Army. Beevor also points out that the Himmlers and Bormanns, and their nameless little henchmen, who were ordering the hanging of any German soldiers who retreated themselves and ran as far West as they could with few exceptions and generally tried avoiding contact with the Red Army and more often than not --took the cowards way out! You simply remind them of this, that there would have been no rapes if the Nazis hadn't attacked the Soviet Union to begin with and horrifically murdered a good proportion of its population...

Nickdfresh
10-19-2009, 10:18 AM
I really don't know. IMO many-many thousands. Really many. But I don't know my self.
But now I know that Johr and Reichling didn't knew either even though they published their numbers.
But numbers have magic in them. Large numbers especially. At sertain point their become brands used to manipulate public opinion.


Well, the anecdotal evidence is that most German women of sexual age were raped or were lucky if they weren't. Secondly, I'm not sure what the point of public opinion had to do with anything by May of 1945. The Germans were defeated and I doubt many women were particularly proud to have been raped or enjoyed embellishing any of this.

But there is simply too much historical data from too many sources including from members of the Soviet intelligentsia, foreign slave laborers and POWs, German communists who fought on the side of the USSR (including some who would go on to serve in the gov't of the DDR), etc. to discount the fact that this was a prevalent problem and a collapse of discipline aided by fundamentally weak unit leadership and a failure at higher levels to grasp that this was becoming a serious problem quickly enough....


Some of them are.

I agree, that is a relevant question to ask.
The differnece in this particular case would be (from the top of my head) that a) understanding exactly what the losses mean, i.e. out of 13,5M Soviet civilian victims, only 7,5M is atributed as "killed intentinally", this is including Holocaust victims too; b) on German side existed state driven ideological antipathy towards some parts of local population. On the Soviet side this deliberate anthipaty policy was not present. The alledged "Kill German" pamphlet by Ilya Ehrenburg was serving completely different purpose, though I agree that it backfired when RKKA entered Germany; c) During the war, the Gemran army spent longer time in USSR then Soviet in German territories.

Otherwise I would preffer if we could continue (if you wish so) this particular topic in another thread.


I agree there was no specific policy of antipathy on the Soviet side nor was Ilya strictly controlled nor told what to say by the Soviet gov't. In fact, according to Beevor, I believe he was effectively muzzled by Stalin and fell out of favor as his rhetoric went from useful to tiresome --and he may well have faced Siberia had he not enjoyed celebrity status and popularity with the Red Army.

On the contrary, Beevor also reports that the 'revenge-rhetoric' was cooled and Stalin and his advisers wanted a transition from simple 'revenge' to a theme of 'liberation' of the Germans from fascism in order to prevent an insurgency and to effectively win their "hearts and minds" to make an occupied Germany governable. It is in fact stated that the Red Army saved the German population from starvation and worked hard to feed the hungry Berliners to the extent that many Germans thought of some as heroes. It seems to have been a complex, love hate relationship where the Germans were alternately puzzled that the Red Army raped many of their young women early on, yet then later worked hard to prevent famine and disease and the soldiers took great care of the German children insuring that they were fed first. I think the simple answer is that the German population was dehumanized to the avg. Red Army soldier through propaganda, both understandably and perhaps necessarily. But as the Germans starved and suffered, the avg. Red Army soldier again began to see them as humans and themselves as their protectors and overseers as well as occupiers. Unfortunately, it took time for that transition to fully take place...

Rising Sun*
10-20-2009, 07:02 AM
Beevor also states clearly at several points in his book, at least three times that I recall, that NOT ALL Red Army soldiers were rapists. In fact, he points out that few of the advance elements of Red Army infantry and armor troops --the ones who suffered the most deprivation-- committed rapes as they simply didn't have time to much more than grab a watch....

Which is consistent with various bits of evidence that rape was most often a crime committed in rear areas as the fighting troops, on all sides, were fully occupied with other matters.

It was certainly a problem in rear areas of Allied occupied France and Belgium in 1944.


From the autumn of 1944 until the end of the war, Belgians also complained bitterly about American troops systematically looting furniture and household possessions. The Liиge press started using the term “gangsters” about US soldiers, and there were reports of armed hold-ups and the theft of valuables from passers-by. American official hypocrisy in refusing to regulate brothels also ensured that the armies carried venereal disease everywhere they went (by the end of the war, helped partly by a shortage of condoms, 14% of American troops were estimated to have the disease). A recent French film seeks to glamorise the wartime contribution of French colonial troops, yet in truth their units were notorious for rape and murder.

Hitchcock, whose study of military behaviour focuses chiefly on the US Army, notes that while only 15 white American soldiers were executed for crimes in Europe during 1944-45, 55 black Americans were hanged for rape or murder. This almost certainly represented the harsher attitude adopted by the American high command towards black offenders. Many men guilty of grievous mistreatment of civilians were lightly treated. The author writes: “The evidence shows that sexual violence against women in liberated France was common.” With the American entry into Germany, the situation seems to have have become even worse, with the army's Judge Advocate General reporting “an avalanche” of new cases. When a Stars and Stripes reporter tried to file a story in March 1945 about the widespread prevalence of rape in the Rhineland, it was suppressed by army censors.

The British Army was by no means blameless. Yvette Levy, a concentration-camp victim who was liberated in 1945, experienced terrible cruelties at the hands of the Red Army, which was as ready to beat and rape Hitler's victims as his people. But, when at last she and some of her companions reached the western zone, they met British soldiers demanding sex in exchange for food. “A man in uniform loses all his dignity,” she said bitterly. “I don't know what these men thought of us - they must have taken us for wild animals.” http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_reviews/article5523304.ece#


So what's the point of this?

Simply that no nation has clean hands, but the fact remains that some behaved worse than others.

Rising Sun*
10-20-2009, 07:38 AM
This is worth reading for consideration of the many aspects of rape by Soviet troops, and in wider respects by troops of other nations, in conquered territories.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=NilW70Yol74C&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=memory+and+the+narrative+of+rape+in+budapest+an d+vienna&source=bl&ots=VX1i3pSKsq&sig=heqnqzzumx4R5MVODWLiHb7Qn9A&hl=en&ei=e67dSsTwL4iU6wP984WwDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=memory%20and%20the%20narrative%20of%20rape%20in% 20budapest%20and%20vienna&f=false

P.S. Note the last paragraph on p. 132 which indicates the wide range of numbers allegedly raped and the ultimate futility of trying to determine the exact number.

Nickdfresh
10-20-2009, 01:01 PM
Which is consistent with various bits of evidence that rape was most often a crime committed in rear areas as the fighting troops, on all sides, were fully occupied with other matters.

It was certainly a problem in rear areas of Allied occupied France and Belgium in 1944.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_reviews/article5523304.ece#


So what's the point of this?

Simply that no nation has clean hands, but the fact remains that some behaved worse than others.

It was substantially worse of a problem in Algiers, where static units of US soldiers with very poor leadership and little ongoing training "rampaged" in one particular episode. Rick Atkinson writes of an instance where US soldiers went berserk and began raping the women starting with the local North African populace before they began on the French and French-Jewish colonials...

From An Army at Dawn, around pg. 463:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d6rRy_SE1bQC&pg=PA463&dq#v=onepage&q=&f=false

But of course, the French officers themselves turned their backs on notoriously brutal rapes, indiscriminate murders, and looting committed by their Algerian Berber colonial troops in Italy against an ally...

Rising Sun*
10-21-2009, 05:56 AM
But of course, the French officers themselves turned their backs on notoriously brutal rapes, indiscriminate murders, and looting committed by their Algerian Berber colonial troops in Italy against an ally...

I seem to recall that the Goumiers also raped a lot of women in France in 1944-45, but I have vague impression that it was censored or suppressed for something to do with French internal or colonial politics. Or maybe I'm just terminally Alzheimers.

flamethrowerguy
10-21-2009, 06:49 AM
I seem to recall that the Goumiers also raped a lot of women in France in 1944-45,...

Also in Germany, the Morrocans committed lots of rapes in occupied Germany (e.g. at the south-western German town of Freudenstadt). Interestingly it's reported that the Tunisians behaved very well though.

Rising Sun*
10-21-2009, 07:17 AM
Also in Germany, the Morrocans committed lots of rapes in occupied Germany (e.g. at the south-western German town of Freudenstadt). Interestingly it's reported that the Tunisians behaved very well though.

Going back to Egorka's attempt at a statistical analysis, it'd be interesting to know what proportion of troops of which country committed rapes in the areas they conquered and or occupied, which is the only basis for working out who was worst.

My understanding is that the Goumiers were, by pre-war European standards (I say that to distinguish those standards from the much lower standards which applied in much of Europe during the war), a somewhat primitive bunch and that their raping derived from an understanding that rape was one of the spoils of the victors. If so, that makes them rather less bad than, say, Americans who came from a society with supposedly opposite values.

As Nick indicated earlier, a lot of the rapes might be reflective of poor leadership rather than any moral deficiency in the troops of a given nation.

Which is a point that has been made by some authors about Soviet troops in Germany being well behaved in some units but not in others with poor leadership, or with a leadership which permitted rape, but I can't think of a source at the moment.

Chevan
10-21-2009, 11:46 PM
That is not correct.
All the data I used is present in my post #18 (http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=161448&postcount=18). If you disagree with some of it, you should correct me. But the model is there, and it is explained. There are no hiden points in there.

The model ( or way of statistical analisys ) is probably a correct, Igor, by the number of accidental coef in "matrix" is pretty arbitrary and unreliable .SO the model is unclear for final resault.
Plus, emotionally , you "scientific method" and "matrix manipulation " may cause a ....panic among some guys and followed accusation in "silly logic and statements" :)
You have to take it into consideration every time you will extract the square root from you matrix:) people dislike the Devil's mathematic.Lets follow the more simple way.
This of couse not prove i don't respect the Great method of 'sensitivity analysis' that , however in lack of reliable full datas might suffer a... lack of sensitivity.:)
This is exactly that case IMO.
You attempt of analisys is right ,your post № 32 and 33 are worth for thinking.


I am not 100% sure, but my impression that Reichling does not actualy mean that all aleged 2M rapes were done exclusivly by Soviets.

Now it doesn't matter.
Bevoure concluded it was done , exclusively by Soviets, on statistic of Reichling.
Its not the history but politic.
Indeed netiher statistic of born "Russekinders" nor the abortion can't be 100% exact, coze both of cases includes the forced prostitution as well as rapings.
Only the reports and statistic of Police might be correct in calculation of rapings, but we have no a such datas,except the few dozen reports of NKVD about "immoral " behaving of Red army soldiers.


When you say reasonable figure, you base it on what ground?
[/quote]
Honestly i based it on flamethrowerguy's post, who is claim it was based on Johr datas.
I trust him..

Chevan
10-22-2009, 12:23 AM
Beevor himself, as the man detested by many Russians, says the Germans deserve no special considerations and while their suffering in regrettable, they are not in the same status of victimhood as the Jews, peoples of the former USSR, Yugoslavs, Italians, Belgians, French, and pretty much anyone else certain elements of the German machine (and their collaborators of various nationalities who were numerous and varied) decided to terrorize...

Beevor also states clearly at several points in his book, at least three times that I recall, that NOT ALL Red Army soldiers were rapists. In fact, he points out that few of the advance elements of Red Army infantry and armor troops --the ones who suffered the most deprivation-- committed rapes as they simply didn't have time to much more than grab a watch....

Nick , i know you are enough smart to make the right conclusion from any reading. But peoples are different.
It's clear now for me , that the single and MAIN resault of Bevour's biased work is that now, the neonazi will operate the old goebbels propogandic stereotypes kinda "all from 8 to 80 were raped" as "historically proved". Justl like they now used the work of other prominent british author D. Irving who prove for them the another some highly interesting points,whitewashed Third Reich :)
The figure 2 mln of raped now is introduced as "correct" into the , independently which datas were used.


What's the point of any of that? The basic impulse here is to acknowledge that this whole shitty, inhuman episode happened so maybe everyone will think twice about allowing it to happen again.

The point is the politic.
You have to realize that.


And the Neonazis are the same losers who worship people who mostly ran and abandoned the German military and civil populations they thoroughly ****ed as they left behind the average German civilians and soldiers to face the wrath of the Red Army. Beevor also points out that the Himmlers and Bormanns, and their nameless little henchmen, who were ordering the hanging of any German soldiers who retreated themselves and ran as far West as they could with few exceptions and generally tried avoiding contact with the Red Army and more often than not --took the cowards way out! You simply remind them of this, that there would have been no rapes if the Nazis hadn't attacked the Soviet Union to begin with and horrifically murdered a good proportion of its population...
Ah common Nick. We all know the standardized western vertion who was a bad side of that war.USSR and Germany, right?
So, Bevoure just has written a book on in coordinance with that GEneral line. Barbarian russians against sadist germans:)Like in old good times.
Of course bevour mentioned ( shortly) the standard vertion of haw was terrible occupation regime in east( mainly toward jews). The english man wrote a book about last days a Berlin , has counted all the grammas, raped by red army , and quite accidentally ( i want to believe) forgot to count rough the thousands of babies in berlin, killed by british bombs.:mrgreen:
It's look enough stupid out of anglo-saxon world.

Egorka
10-22-2009, 02:45 AM
The model ( or way of statistical analisys ) is probably a correct, Igor, by the number of accidental coef in "matrix" is pretty arbitrary and unreliable .SO the model is unclear for final resault.This is beause you do not understand the purpose of the excercise in post #18, and instead replace it with the purpose that YOU think it has.

I repeat again that the purpose was to make a model (a calculation, if you wish) which would allow to look at the event in question under different angles. It is not ment to produce a single numerical result.
I have been working for the past 11 years doing similar stuff. You don't just think I make it up, do you?


Plus, emotionally , you "scientific method" and "matrix manipulation " may cause a ....panic among some guys and followed accusation in "silly logic and statements" :)
I write for grownups and mentaly stable people. I think most people on this forum are so.

might suffer a... lack of sensitivity.:)
I do not understand what you want to say with this.

Honestly i based it on flamethrowerguy's post, who is claim it was based on Johr datas.
I trust him..I trust him too. So?
He just quoted number from the Johr's article.
I asked if after reading posts #32 (http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=161520&postcount=32) and #33 (http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=161598&postcount=33) you still think that Johr's assesment is resonable. Is it?

Egorka
10-22-2009, 03:14 AM
Egorka, in your original post (and on the photo site) you called Sander/Johr a reliable source in contrary to Beevor and German Dr. Gerhard Reichling...I wrote that Sander/Johr book is a better source cause it is attempting to investigate the issue and proposes a solution to posed questions.
The Beevor's book has completely different purpose and the issue of rapes is only a side story for him. Therefore Beevor barely quotes Sander/Johr ans that is it. So if one wants to criticise Beevor on the issue of rape, one has to inevitably address Johr's article and see if it holds criticism.

That is what I ment by saying that "Liberators and Liberated" is a owerall good and sensible book (so I was told).

...and German Dr. Gerhard Reichling (the guy who examined the documents of these two Berlin hospitals).Do you mean that it was not Johr, but Reichling who examined the Hospital records? I had completely opposite impression: Johr worked with the records of one of the smaller Berlin hospitals (Actually Beevor willingly or not states that it was one of the major Berlin hospital. That is not true.).
What sources Rechling had we don't know. I seems unlikely ever to find out.

Rising Sun*
10-22-2009, 07:30 AM
Only the reports and statistic of Police might be correct in calculation of rapings ...

Not in a million years.

There are various figures, claims and assertions about the percentage of rapes and other sexual assaults which are not reported to police even now in Western societies which supposedly are much less judgmental and censorious about rape victims than was the case in the 1940s and therefore supposedly much more likely to result in rapes being reported.

Over the past twenty years or so I have seen several women of various ages almost every year who claim to have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted. In almost all cases I believe them on objective grounds, although there are a few who might have mental problems or other reasons for making baseless complaints.

Some of these women have gone on to try to lodge complaints with police, and in some cases didn't even get past a disbelieving arsehole copper, and not necessarily a male one.

I can recall only one woman who got a matter to trial. She lost. The acquitted defendant was convicted shortly after in another trial of exactly the same offences against another victim. The prosecutors didn't proceed with a complaint by a third victim about identical offences. From information I had which could not come out in the trials, I know the bastard was as guilty as hell but his ****ing wife lied for him, probably because she didn't want to lose her meal ticket if he went to gaol.

So, on that single offender, he got away with two thirds of his offences in a society and legal system which was supposedly sympathetic to victims of rape and determined to avoid the dark past where the system was stacked against the victim. Yeah, right!

If women in the modern West still have problems getting a rape complaint off the ground when there is so much support from the sisterhood and in law for them, they would have had bugger all chance of getting it off the ground in a devastated Germany where the police and prosecutors would have been overwhelmed if all the complaints had been lodged.

But in almost all cases they wouldn't be lodged because (a) of social stigmas attached to advertsing oneself as a rape victim; (b) because of the realistic perception that German police had no power compared with the power of whichever occupying force's soldier was accused of the crime; and (c) because a beaten people subjected to the arbitrary powers of an occupying force learns to keep its head down in the hope of surviving the apparently limitless power and abuses of the occupier.

Egorka
10-22-2009, 09:14 AM
But in almost all cases they wouldn't be lodged because (a) of social stigmas attached to advertsing oneself as a rape victim; (b) because of the realistic perception that German police had no power compared with the power of whichever occupying force's soldier was accused of the crime; and (c) because a beaten people subjected to the arbitrary powers of an occupying force learns to keep its head down in the hope of surviving the apparently limitless power and abuses of the occupier.I agree that the lack or low number of filed police cases is NOT an evidence that RKKA didn't rape. At that time functions of German police were very limited if noneexistent.

Nickdfresh
10-22-2009, 10:42 AM
Nick , i know you are enough smart to make the right conclusion from any reading. But peoples are different.
It's clear now for me , that the single and MAIN resault of Bevour's biased work is that now, the neonazi will operate the old goebbels propogandic stereotypes kinda "all from 8 to 80 were raped" as "historically proved". Justl like they now used the work of other prominent british author D. Irving who prove for them the another some highly interesting points,whitewashed Third Reich :)
The figure 2 mln of raped now is introduced as "correct" into the , independently which datas were used.

Goebbels used various outrages for propaganda just as the Soviet authorities used German atrocities for the same purpose. That doesn't mean said atrocities didn't take place nor does it mean that discussion should be silenced.

And to your point regarding Neonazis using Beevor's work for their own aims, well, then they'd have to contend with his writings in said work about the often cowardly actions of Nazi Party officials and the portrait of a deranged, ranting Hitler that cared nothing for the German people he was sacrificing. They would also have to face Beevor's other seminal work, Stalingrad, which goes in depth regarding the policies of the Third Reich during Operation Barbarossa and the merciless slaughter of millions of Russian civilians and Soviet POWs...

They would also have to acknowledge that the Soviets worked hard to feed Germany and prevent a general famine from occurring, something which their Nazi "heroes" had no pretension of in their activities in the East...


The point is the politic.
You have to realize that.

The point is history, and not being revisionist about it...


Ah common Nick. We all know the standardized western vertion who was a bad side of that war.USSR and Germany, right?
So, Bevoure just has written a book on in coordinance with that GEneral line. Barbarian russians against sadist germans:)Like in old good times.
Of course bevour mentioned ( shortly) the standard vertion of haw was terrible occupation regime in east( mainly toward jews). The english man wrote a book about last days a Berlin , has counted all the grammas, raped by red army , and quite accidentally ( i want to believe) forgot to count rough the thousands of babies in berlin, killed by british bombs.:mrgreen:
It's look enough stupid out of anglo-saxon world.

Actually, as I've stated before, he mentions Allied bombing. But since the book is a narrow time frame involving the Soviet advance from the East in Eastern Germany, it's hard to sort of spend time on it. And with death tolls in the tens of millions, I'd say both the Nazi and Stalinist ideologies were barbaric and sadistic...

Egorka
10-22-2009, 03:57 PM
The point is history, and not being revisionist about it...
Ohh, the "R"-word...
Do you mean raising this questions is "revisionism"? Like in a bad sense of the word, right?
But why?

Chevan
10-23-2009, 12:03 AM
Not in a million years.

I can recall only one woman who got a matter to trial. She lost. The acquitted defendant was convicted shortly after in another trial of exactly the same offences against another victim. The prosecutors didn't proceed with a complaint by a third victim about identical offences. From information I had which could not come out in the trials, I know the bastard was as guilty as hell but his ****ing wife lied for him, probably because she didn't want to lose her meal ticket if he went to gaol.

sad story.
Yeah the modern juridical system is a bitch..
We have also the other cases when the on basis of false testimonies there were judged the innocent peoples and some of them were even executed.
I have read a story about Andrey Chikatilo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo) , the most famouse russian maniac who murdered 56 persons.
But the most amazing was for me that for his crimes were executed TWO supposed maniacs. And each case was "proved" by court:)And each pseudo-maniac were "identified" by witnesses.
That's how the soviet court system works:)
That make us to conclude the one importaint thought.
The testimonies of witness is not enough for accusation of person. We need the proper investigation process.The witness may point at the false person, as it was happend.



If women in the modern West still have problems getting a rape complaint off the ground when there is so much support from the sisterhood and in law for them, they would have had bugger all chance of getting it off the ground in a devastated Germany where the police and prosecutors would have been overwhelmed if all the complaints had been lodged.

But in almost all cases they wouldn't be lodged because (a) of social stigmas attached to advertsing oneself as a rape victim; (b) because of the realistic perception that German police had no power compared with the power of whichever occupying force's soldier was accused of the crime; and (c) because a beaten people subjected to the arbitrary powers of an occupying force learns to keep its head down in the hope of surviving the apparently limitless power and abuses of the occupier.
That's for sure.
Indeed the German police weren't at service when the war come to germany.The occupation forces had have to reorganize the former Nazis police to keep the order among civils. But for the first time the military units and provisional occupation administration did that.Which of course did not hold the exhaustive statistic of commited crimes.
So we might to operate only by datas of hospitals. But those datas don't hold the exact figures which woman were raped by soldiers and which one were raped by say by criminals , right?
Moreover the datas of hospitals didn't contain the information say , which indesirable pregancy was happend after act of raping or after say act of forced prostitution.And how many of act of raping suffered victims before the go to the hospital?And how many of victims had not appeal to doctors at all?
I don't think the hospital should provide such a statistic.

Chevan
10-23-2009, 12:31 AM
Ohh, the "R"-word...
Do you mean raising this questions is "revisionism"? Like in a bad sense of the word, right?

No you will to know how to use the "matrix calculation" in ww2 history amateur forum:):D

Chevan
10-23-2009, 12:59 AM
Goebbels used various outrages for propaganda just as the Soviet authorities used German atrocities for the same purpose. That doesn't mean said atrocities didn't take place nor does it mean that discussion should be silenced.

We never silenced this theme.
And we speak and think there.



The point is history, and not being revisionist about it...

Oh common, this is don't work for me.
I know who are the real revisionist and which "methods" they use.


Actually, as I've stated before, he mentions Allied bombing. But since the book is a narrow time frame involving the Soviet advance from the East in Eastern Germany, it's hard to sort of spend time on it. And with death tolls in the tens of millions, I'd say both the Nazi and Stalinist ideologies were barbaric and sadistic...
Sure the both ideologies were wrong nasty things.
However one can't claim that ONLY ideology force the soldiers commit the crimes over civils.
American Army has commited a lot of crimes in say Korea or Vietnam. The sadists and rapists exist in any army , independently of ideology.
The BEvours book describes the period since at least jenuary 1945, and we actualy had a talk about how he superficially mentioned the cruel bombings of that period:)
And he seriously was outraged that germans continie to call the raids terroristic;)

Rising Sun*
10-23-2009, 06:14 AM
But the most amazing was for me that for his crimes were executed TWO supposed maniacs. And each case was "proved" by court:)And each pseudo-maniac were "identified" by witnesses.
That's how the soviet court system works:)

Cheer up.

The Americans and other Western nations don't do any better. http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/

For example:


North Carolina Man Exonerated After 14 Years
Posted: September 2, 2009 5:40 pm

At 2:30 this afternoon, Joseph Abbitt walked out of a North Carolina courthouse a free man for the first time in 14 years, proven innocent through DNA testing. He was serving life in prison for a rape he didn’t commit, and a state judge today vacated his sentence and dropped all charges against him.

DNA testing completed this year shows that another man raped two teenage girls in their Winston-Salem home in 1991. The North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence represents Abbitt and has worked on his case for four years. Although much of the evidence collected in the case had been destroyed, the Winston-Salem Police Department had preserved critical biological evidence collected from the victims’ bodies – and tests on this evidence proved Abbitt’s innocence.

Abbitt becomes the 242nd person exonerated in the United States through DNA testing and the seventh in North Carolina. His conviction was caused in part by eyewitness misidentifications – a factor in more than 75% of wrongful convictions overturned through DNA testing. http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/2159.php?phpMyAdmin=52c4ab7ea46t7da4197

Getting back to rapes in occupied territories in WWII, how good do you think identification evidence would be of an accused soldier from any nation when they're all wearing much the same uniform; have similar haircuts; and generally are part of a machine which is designed to make them all look as similar as possible?

Nickdfresh
10-23-2009, 09:36 AM
sad story.
Yeah the modern juridical system is a bitch..
We have also the other cases when the on basis of false testimonies there were judged the innocent peoples and some of them were even executed.
I have read a story about Andrey Chikatilo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Chikatilo) , the most famouse russian maniac who murdered 56 persons.
But the most amazing was for me that for his crimes were executed TWO supposed maniacs. And each case was "proved" by court:)And each pseudo-maniac were "identified" by witnesses.
That's how the soviet court system works:)
That make us to conclude the one importaint thought.
[b]The testimonies of witness is not enough for accusation of person. We need the proper investigation process.The witness may point at the false person, as it was happend.


Thank God for DNA evidence, which while not perfect, has released some innocent people from jail and even death row here...

Nickdfresh
10-23-2009, 09:37 AM
Ohh, the "R"-word...
Do you mean raising this questions is "revisionism"? Like in a bad sense of the word, right?
But why?

I have no problem with revisiting historical questions and dispelling notions which are often incorrect as long as it's done in some sort of search for a greater truth. But sometimes, there seems to be more of a nationalist or ideological bent behind things...

Nickdfresh
10-23-2009, 09:42 AM
...
Sure the both ideologies were wrong nasty things.
However one can't claim that ONLY ideology force the soldiers commit the crimes over civils.
American Army has commited a lot of crimes in say Korea or Vietnam. The sadists and rapists exist in any army , independently of ideology.

I couldn't agree more. Sadists and rapists often use ideology--or field expediency--as a justification for their actions which very often are committed out of urges for their own criminal needs. Hitler surrounded himself with the latter...


The BEvours book describes the period since at least jenuary 1945, and we actualy had a talk about how he superficially mentioned the cruel bombings of that period:)
And he seriously was outraged that germans continie to call the raids terroristic;)

The bombings were not a direct topic of his book as the primary timeline mentioned included few RAF or USAAF raids in that part of Eastern Germany as Western Allied air activity was ceased in areas of Soviet occupation in order to avoid incidents of 'friendly fire,' which Beevor also mentions. But I never got the impression that Beevor was a big fan of "area bombing" as many contemporary British historians, especially the likes of Keegan, criticize the concept on many levels addition to the humanitarian concerns of indiscriminate killing..

Egorka
10-23-2009, 10:34 AM
But sometimes, there seems to be more of a nationalist or ideological bent behind things...
Which is, you think, the case here, right?

Nickdfresh
10-23-2009, 03:16 PM
Which is, you think, the case here, right?

I didn't say that. But Beevor certainly has drawn the ire of some Russian historians...

Chevan
10-26-2009, 01:33 AM
I couldn't agree more.

oh ,you did it 90% of time here and since most beginning of this particular thread:)


Sadists and rapists often use ideology--or field expediency--as a justification for their actions which very often are committed out of urges for their own criminal needs. Hitler surrounded himself with the latter...

This is true.However the sadism was often arbitrary.If you fight the enemy who don't adhere to a Huge rules, you can't follow it too.


The bombings were not a direct topic of his book as the primary timeline mentioned included few RAF or USAAF raids in that part of Eastern Germany as Western Allied air activity was ceased in areas of Soviet occupation in order to avoid incidents of 'friendly fire,' which Beevor also mentions.
The bombing was not a topic, but the life of berliners was.
And i hadn't noticed Bevoure anxiety of this subject, moreover he specialy trued to make the impression , that the mass killing of Germans civiliances by firestorm is not a such terrible thing compared to raping:)
Funny man.

Chevan
10-26-2009, 01:34 AM
But sometimes, there seems to be more of a nationalist or ideological bent behind things...
It's not we who have started it first, the Bevour was.

Egorka
12-11-2009, 11:17 AM
An interesting article with overview of how the debate around German women rape victims had been developing. Some interesting facts on the couse of debate.

LAUREL COHEN-PFISTER:
"Rape, War, and Outrage: Changing Perceptions on German Victimhood in the period of Post-Unification." (http://books.google.dk/books?id=8ZrJHZguUGIC&lpg=PA316&ots=uggA-ybosD&dq=rape%20johr%201945&pg=PA316#v=onepage&q=rape%20johr%201945&f=false)

On page 316 where number of "estimated two million" is mentioned it is refferenced by:

Sander and Johr (1992), pp.46-73: "BeFreier Und Befreite".
Heinemann E.(1996), p.364: "The Hour of the Woman: Memories of Germany's "Crisis Years" and West German National Identity." (http://books.google.dk/books?id=00fCzJKt1QMC&pg=PA21&dq=%22The+Hour+of+the+Woman:+Memories+of+Germany's +%22&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Hour%20of%20the%20Woman%3A%20Memories%2 0of%20Germany's%20%22&f=false)
Poutrus K.(1995), p.123: "Ein fixiertes Trauma - Massenvergewaltigungen bei Kriegsende in Berlin (http://www.feministische-studien.de/index.php?id=25&no_cache=1&paper=31)" in "Feministische Studien 13.2 (http://primo-7.kb.dk/primo_library/libweb/action/search.do?vid=KGL&vl(14750036UI1)=all_items&vl(freeText0)=%22Feministische%20Studien%22&ct=search&fn=search&indx=1&vl(14133430UI0)=any&tab=default_tab&dum=true&fromLogin=true)"
Grossmann A. (1991), p.46: "Feminist Debates about Women and National Socialism. (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119994836/abstract)" in "Gender & History 3.3"

Uyraell
01-18-2010, 08:30 AM
I had not initially intended to post to this thread, but one minor point in various guises has been several times raised by various contributors, namely, "At which (statistical) point does 'forced prostitution' become discernable as identical to rape?"

The author Peter Elstob makes minor reference in one of his books to an incident that eerily corroborates a circumstance related to me by a woman who, as a young teen, had witnessed a similar set of circumstances.
She was the mother of a college (highschool, in American terms) classmate of mine.

The incident she witnessed is as follows: she knew a girl of 10, who had younger brothers and a sister. The oldest of the younger brothers was 8, the little sister was 6, and the youngest brother, 5. Their parents were both dead.

The 10year old girl was "asked" to share the sleeping bag of a GI, whose unit was then in occupation of the town. Come the morning, the GI gave her a bar of chocolate as payment. The girl said she had two brothers and a sister who had not eaten in about 2 days. The GI gave her tins of rations for them, plus a tin for herself, on condition she again shared his sleeping bag that night. The deal was agreed-to, by the girl, who carried out a similar deal for the rest of the time the American troops occupied the town, some 6 months or so.

Plainly, the circumstance *is* definable as forced prostitution, as well as being what today would be a charge of raping a minor. However: it is also simple human barter at work, in as much as the 10 year-old was feeding her family as best she was able to arrange in very difficult circumstances.

While I in NO way condone what took place between the 10year-old and the GI, I am aware that it simply reflects what must have been multiple thousands of similar cases occurring throughout occupied Europe at that time.

Thus, I would have to conclude, that in the case of occupied Berlin, such things continued as 'normal for the timeframe' regardless of which occupied sector of Berlin one refers.

Having said all the above: it seems reasonable to conclude that a "figure" of two million "rapes" would necessarily include an extremely large percentage of cases similar to the one I describe above, and variant only in age of the female 'participant'. I'd estimate/guess/gamble that up to 65% of the so-called "rapes" would in fact have been similar cases to that I outlined.
Such seems to be a reasonable approach to the topic, regardless of mathematical analyses, however well constructed they be. That said, I'm inclined to agree with Igor's well-thought-out modelling, making the same allowances he does.

Regards, Uyraell.

Rising Sun*
01-18-2010, 09:15 AM
Plainly, the circumstance *is* definable as forced prostitution, as well as being what today would be a charge of raping a minor. However: it is also simple human barter at work, in as much as the 10 year-old was feeding her family as best she was able to arrange in very difficult circumstances.

While I in NO way condone what took place between the 10year-old and the GI, I am aware that it simply reflects what must have been multiple thousands of similar cases occurring throughout occupied Europe at that time.

Any adult male who ****s a 10, or 12 or 14 or 16, year old child is a despicable paedophile who should be shot on sight.

A 10 year old child is incapable of giving proper consent to sexual intercourse with an adult.

It is appalling that anyone could think that there is any fair trade in such a child trading sex for food with an adult male of any army.

We shouldn't be trying to explain the child surviving but we should be condemning the **** who ****ed her.

It goes beyond rape to paedophilia.

Point me to a **** that did it and I'd happily shoot him in the balls, then the knees, then the ankles, then both hips. And leave him to enjoy life after that, dragging himself along the ground for the rest of his rotten life. And while he was dragging himself along the ground on his skateboard, I'd shoot the **** in both shoulders just to **** up that little bit of mobility for him.

Any man that ****s a child under any circumstances is beneath an amimal. Beneath ****ing bacteria!



Having said all the above: it seems reasonable to conclude that a "figure" of two million "rapes" would necessarily include an extremely large percentage of cases similar to the one I describe above, and variant only in age of the female 'participant'.

So, it's okay for the victor to **** the vanquished if the victor has a tin of food and the vanquished is hungry?

What sort of crazy moral compass says that is alright?

However, if it is acceptable, what is the basis for concern about looting and rapes in New Orleans after Katrina? Surely they're just people in similarly difficult circumstances trying to survive?

I don't see any gray. Just black and white.

Either you **** another adult who is fully consenting in circumstances where there is an equality of bargaining power.

Or you don't and then you're somewhere between a paedophille, sex abuser and rapist. Any of which should be game for free game stamps.

Uyraell
01-18-2010, 11:33 AM
RS, I agree with your opinion of what took place.
However, I do NOT condone the event.

I simply reported what had been told me by one who witnessed it.
As to the barter side of it, regardless of how morally wrong such a transaction was, it did take place. As many thousands of such transactions must have taken place throughout Europe at the time, which was the point I was making.

At No point in My post did I condone it: for, as you, I find such things reprehensible beyond measure.

I certainly did NOT intend to offend anyone by relating here what had been told me in person many years ago.
That I seem to have caused offence, I Apologise for.

I had simply intended to add to the contributions that had mentioned forced prostitution, which was the aspect that most struck my mind as comparable to rape.
As to the soldier who did as was related to me: be assured, I do condemn him.

As to age 16: that is the age of consent in NZ, and in Australia, as far as I'm aware. I don't see that someone should be condemned as a paedophile if within those nations, they have heeded those legalities.

Regards, Uyraell.

Rising Sun*
01-19-2010, 02:06 AM
That I seem to have caused offence, I Apologise for.

No, you didn't, and you don't need to apologise.

I was outraged by what the soldier did, not by you reporting it.

It's a topic I'm very sensitive about for various reasons, not least that in the past few days I've been informed about a now 15 year old girl I know who was raped by her older brother's mate when she was 7 and a now 17 year old girl I know who was raped by her own brother when she was 10. It ****s those kids up like nothing else, except incest which is the bottom of the slime bucket.

Another reason is a gang rape of two girls by a large group of mid to late teen boys from my area, and what seems to be an increasing prevalence of gang rapes by boys in that age group in Australia.

These pieces of shit and everyone who thinks like them should be removed from the gene pool.


[B][U]As to age 16: that is the age of consent in NZ, and in Australia, as far as I'm aware. I don't see that someone should be condemned as a paedophile if within those nations, they have heeded those legalities.

Regards, Uyraell.

Fair point, although during WWII I suspect that the age of consent was higher here. I don't know about Germany.

I'm still not comfortable with 16 as the unqualified age of consent. It's reasonable where the partner is only a few years older than a 16 year old, but somewhere past there the age and experience discrepancy becomes so great that the child, and she or he is still a child for almost all other legal purposes, is prey to the older person.

And when the older person has inducements, even as basic as food in desperate circumstances in the case you mentioned, the inequality makes the child even more vulnerable to an exploitative adult.

flamethrowerguy
01-19-2010, 02:56 PM
Fair point, although during WWII I suspect that the age of consent was higher here. I don't know about Germany.

If in 1943 a grown up male was caught having a sexual relation to a person below the age of 21 he was in major trouble.

herman2
01-19-2010, 03:30 PM
If in 1943 a grown up male was caught having a sexual relation to a person below the age of 21 he was in major trouble.

...but wern't they taking men at 16 into the German Army?or 18?...I mean if your old enough to sacrifice your life then was it that strict! wow!~

flamethrowerguy
01-19-2010, 03:54 PM
...but wern't they taking men at 16 into the German Army?or 18?...I mean if your old enough to sacrifice your life then was it that strict! wow!~

Very strict indeed, considering that the "Schutzalter" (age of consent) in today's Germany was lowered to 14 (!).

Nickdfresh
01-20-2010, 06:28 AM
If in 1943 a grown up male was caught having a sexual relation to a person below the age of 21 he was in major trouble.

Interesting. I was under the impression that the Nazi regime was always pushing to increase the birthrate, and that they attempted to remove the social stigma of having children out of wed-lock and even glorified single mothers to an extent...

And also interesting since Hitler was allegedly buggering his own niece (or cousin?)--driving her to suicide...

flamethrowerguy
01-20-2010, 02:21 PM
And also interesting since Hitler was allegedly buggering his own niece (or cousin?)--driving her to suicide...

I wouldn't know about Austrian habits...;)

flamethrowerguy
01-20-2010, 02:57 PM
Interesting. I was under the impression that the Nazi regime was always pushing to increase the birthrate, and that they attempted to remove the social stigma of having children out of wed-lock and even glorified single mothers to an extent...

Right, but these potential single mothers had to be covered by handpicked SS studs only...

Nickdfresh
01-20-2010, 04:28 PM
I wouldn't know about Austrian habits...;)

Neither do I other than they make lazy, superstar hockey players... :)

Deaf Smith
01-20-2010, 05:56 PM
If in 1943 a grown up male was caught having a sexual relation to a person below the age of 21 he was in major trouble.

21?


Any adult male who ****s a 10, or 12 or 14 or 16, year old child is a despicable paedophile who should be shot on sight..

RS,

While I agree with you, you need to look at the legal age of consent in Canada. I almost fell out of my chair when I found out.

Deaf

Rising Sun*
01-20-2010, 06:11 PM
RS,

While I agree with you, you need to look at the legal age of consent in Canada. I almost fell out of my chair when I found out.

Deaf

From what I can see it was 14 for a while but raised to 16, with various provisions relating to respective ages of the parties.

Apparently it's 12 in Mexico as a basic age but with conditions.

The problem with differeing ages in different countries and in particular with very low ages is that it's going to encourage paedophiles to go to those jurisdictions.

And the last problem Canada needs in addition to our own beloved herman2 is an influx of paedophiles. ;) :D

PA.Dutchman
05-19-2010, 09:26 PM
Here is a link to some documented rapes and killing by the Russians as they advanced into Germany. I am including the website, it has a LOT to offer.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/ma ... _axis.html

In other East Prussian villages within the triangle Gumbinnen-Goldap-Ebenrode, the same scenes were witnessed, old men and boys being castrated and their eyes gouged out before being killed or burned alive. In nearby Metgethen, a suburb of Kцnigsberg, recaptured by the German 5th Panzer Division, around 60 women were found in a demented state in a large villa. They had been raped on average 60 to 70 times a day. In nearly every home, the bodies of women and children were found raped and murdered. The bodies of two young women were found, their legs had been tied one limb each between two trucks, and then torn apart when the trucks were driven away in opposite directions. At Metgethen railway station, a refugee train from Konigsberg, consisting of seven passenger coaches, was found and in each compartment seven to nine bestially mutilated bodies were discovered. To the Russians, refugee trains were ideal sources of women and booty. In the town of Niesse in Silesia, 182 Catholic nuns were raped and debauched daily by the Russians. In the town of Demmin in Mecklenburg, German troops destroyed the bridge over the river Peene to slow down the advance of the Red Army. Nevertheless, the town was handed over to the Soviets without much of resistance and soon after around 800 of its citizens committed suicide by drowning in the Peene or by taking poison in fear of rape or murder by the Soviet troops.

pdf27
05-20-2010, 01:19 AM
Linky no worky!

Egorka
05-23-2010, 04:19 PM
This is the working link he wanted to post: http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_axis.html
It seems to be a collection of different facts, hearsays and historical anecdotes put together and shaken vigorously.

Chevan
05-31-2010, 03:59 AM
This is the working link he wanted to post: http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_axis.html
It seems to be a collection of different facts, hearsays and historical anecdotes put together and shakes vigorously.

Very honest and reliable revisionistic site with a sound charge of russophoby , i have to say ,:);):);):mrgreen:
I like especially this statement...

Allied troops, as well as Axis troops, committed terrible atrocities during the war...