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namvet
05-31-2009, 06:11 PM
http://90daywonder.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/Cooper.JPG.w560h842.jpg

Leon Cooper at Red Beach its a god d***ed f*****g mess !!!!

archived fro 08

cooper returned to this tiny atoll in feb 08 to chase some demons and was shocked at what he found. after getting the white wash from the Gov for help the new Zealand gov has offered their help in cleaning it up. natives have been using as a dump for years. its strewn with bullets, shell casing and grenades. and buried bodies. the graves of 139 missing Marines and sailors whose remains had long been presumed lost have been found.
according to this:

Remains from WWII battle on Tarawa found, Florida group says


The Marines quickly buried their dead after the 1943 battle for Tarawa, one of the bloodiest fights against the Japanese in World War II.

Then the bulldozers came to build runways. Markers were lost. In 1946, the military went back to find those graves on the Pacific atoll.

They couldn't locate half of them.


source (source)

this was a TV doc which i missed but not sure i get this cable channel anyway. here's the doc in it entirety. a word. it is long. around 47 mins
http://www.hulu.com/watch/74507/return-to-tarawa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C92y53IwsA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rz9U_gvdA-Q

Churchill
05-31-2009, 10:42 PM
What a shame... Too bad its happening everywhere, even in Western nations(I.e., Naples, Italy).

namvet
05-31-2009, 10:52 PM
I watched the video. i didn't know this. the Japanese sent 20 bombers from the marshal's to flatten Tarawa. but they were intercepted by a routine patrol from a carrier. 17 shot down the other 3 ran for home. learn something everyday.

Deaf Smith
06-01-2009, 08:40 PM
Keep in mind when Rome fell the Coliseum, which was a very grand place with most fantastic ornaments, was stripped bare of everything over the years.

People have got to live. The Islanders can't afford to make the island a museum. They have got to eat and dump their garbage, like anyone else.

Deaf

namvet
06-01-2009, 08:53 PM
that's what Leon Cooper is trying to co ordinate and correct. waste management. the islanders have recycle for cans but not general garbage.

and the people there are fine. Tarawa is now a major tourists stop. as well as the other islands to. including tours of the battlefield.

bootneck
06-08-2009, 06:34 AM
I can understand his feelings, if one of the military cemeteries in Europe was suddenly used for dumping, we would play merry hell. If there are lost sole on and around that beach even if they are not recovered, as a sign of respect it should be cleaned up. Mind you the US Gvt should help as well. we all should. Its in the Interest of the islanders as well if tourism is going to bring in money

Gutkowski
06-15-2009, 11:40 PM
WoW is all I can say that is a real shame to see

Schuultz
06-19-2009, 08:27 PM
I'm surprised that you don't see that more often really. Considering the sheer amount of battlefields during WW2, some are bound to be 'disgraced' through one thing or another...

rudeerude
07-17-2009, 12:47 AM
Saw this before too, can one image this happening to Normandy.I sure thats way out there to imagine.The government on Tarawa is disrespecting American lives and blood.

Rising Sun*
07-18-2009, 08:58 AM
Saw this before too, can one image this happening to Normandy.I sure thats way out there to imagine.The government on Tarawa is disrespecting American lives and blood.

What makes American lives and blood more important than anyone else's?

Why should the people in Tarawa respect America when it dropped and detonated in Kiribati territory 24 nuclear weapons from B 52s in 1962 in America's last atmospheric nuclear testing program?

How would you feel if Kiribati did the same on continental America?

Why should a poor country like Kiribati, which looks like being the first nation to disappear under the rising seas, have to pay for preservation of something America thinks is important when America avoids paying fairly for the consequences of its nuclear testing in that region? http://australianetworknews.com/stories/200907/2625765.htm?desktop

rudeerude
07-19-2009, 08:31 PM
Your about 1,600 miles off from Tarawa to the line islands where nuclear weapons were tested on remote islands.A different generation by 20 years, you are comparing 1943 to 1962??The men of 1943 were fighting for a different cause in 1943

"What makes American lives and blood more important than anyone else's?"

If it was British,Australian,New Zealander,local natives, I would still have the same opinion.

"How would you feel if Kiribati did the same on continental America?"
America did it even to America

tests carried out from 1965 to 1971.

• Nevada - 7 nuclear tests (including 5 atmospheric and 2 underground)

• New Mexico - 3 nuclear tests (including 1 atmospheric and 2 underground)
On American soil

Rising Sun*
07-20-2009, 01:37 AM
Your about 1,600 miles off from Tarawa to the line islands where nuclear weapons were tested on remote islands.

It's still part of Kiribati, as is Tarawa.


A different generation by 20 years, you are comparing 1943 to 1962??The men of 1943 were fighting for a different cause in 1943.

Kiribati wasn't fighting anyone in 1962. But it still got nuked by America, and Britain.


""How would you feel if Kiribati did the same on continental America?"
America did it even to America

tests carried out from 1965 to 1971.

• Nevada - 7 nuclear tests (including 5 atmospheric and 2 underground)

• New Mexico - 3 nuclear tests (including 1 atmospheric and 2 underground)
On American soil

America chose to do it to itself. Kiribati didn't, because it was a British colonial possession. The people had no say in what happened when Britain tested its nuclear weapons on their territory nor when Britain allowed America to test there.

If the tests on Kiribati were such a good idea and if America was happy to nuke itself, why didn't America conduct those tests on continental America?

Rising Sun*
07-20-2009, 07:41 AM
BTW, if anyone wants to get further wound up about how terrible the people of Kiribati are in 'disrepecting' the American dead, there's this:


Some of Tarawa’s natives have dug up Marines through the years, stripping them of gold teeth or anything else valuable, Noah said. http://www.theheraldbulletin.com/local/local_story_348213420.html/resources_printstory

Assuming that's true, why is that so terrible when some US Marines prised gold teeth out of Japanese, and not always dead ones, during the war?

So what am I on about?

It's this simple: Respect is earned, and it's earned by conduct. It is also a two way street.

Where is the American government respect for the people of Kiribati in nuking their land?

Where is the American government respect for the people of Kiribati in refusing to clean up the mess America left there after invading Tarawa purely in America's interests, which still kills people there?


During my time in Tarawa I developed an “Action Program for
Tarawa,” which I discussed with the key officials in Tarawa,
including the Ambassador to Fiji—whose portfolio includes
Tarawa—calling for, among other things, a state-of-the-art
incineration plant that will burn up all of the garbage on the islands,
incidentally, supplementing the island’s electric power (Energy
Through Waste) and most important, preventing the garbage on the
islands from being swept out to sea, killing marine life and polluting
the Pacific, the shame of our planet. It would do this with only
minimal greenhouse gas emissions. I’ve also prepared a detailed
schedule of expenditures that would do much to restore a healthful
environment to the island archipelago--to be funded by my
government. Red Beach would once again become a pristine area, a
permanent memorial to those who fought and died there. While in
Tarawa I made arrangements with a local businessman—in charge
of the island’s can compaction business- to carry out my Program.
The Program can well serve as a model for all of Pacific Oceana,
restoring the beauty of the ocean and reversing the destruction of
marine life. My “Action Program” is attached. With no help from
the US Government, New Zealand will soon begin to implement my
Program. Their consultant, an American, and I have exchanged
frequent e-mails. His latest e-mail advises that a feasibility study may
soon get underway, looking toward the installation of (my proposed)
incinerator system to be funded by New Zealand. And the town
council of Betio—the island in which the major military action took
place—has recruited some volunteers to clean up Red Beach. And
yet another country is doing our dirty work: While in Tarawa I met
the Australian Navy Commander who heads up a bomb demolition
team, removing the live ammunition—ours, still there after all these
years—that has injured or killed possibly thousands of the
inhabitants. This live ammunition lies everywhere among the relics
of that long ago battle. http://90daywonder.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/japantimes.pdf

The quote is from Leon Cooper, the Tarawa veteran in the first post in this thread, whose US government showed no more interest in ‘respecting’ the graves of its war dead on Tarawa than did the government of Kiribati.

So I don’t see any fair basis for choosing to criticise the government of impoverished Kiribati for ‘disrespecting’ American war graves when the American government, the richest government in the world, isn’t interested in doing so.

And now, for something completely different but related, see if you can find out how many Tarawa locals were killed during the American invasion. There is no shortage of information about how many Japanese and Americans were killed, and even scattered references to other Allied troops and civilians and Tarawa locals killed on Tarawa before the American invasion, but the locals don’t figure in the invasion.

Just like most of the other poor bastards who had the misfortune to be regarded as ‘natives’ in the Pacific War as Japan and the Allies rampaged through their lands in their own interests, with little or no regard for the interests of the locals.

Just as Britain and America, and especially magnificently arrogant France, did with nuclear tests in the Pacific, and as Britain and Australia did with nuclear tests in Australia.

The Western Allies never gave the locals much or any respect in the war or as colonial masters, nor often did much or anything to repair the damage we did to them as colonial masters or during and after the war, so why should they respect any Allies, or Allied war dead, now?

Nickdfresh
07-21-2009, 10:28 PM
...
So I don’t see any fair basis for choosing to criticise the government of impoverished Kiribati for ‘disrespecting’ American war graves when the American government, the richest government in the world, isn’t interested in doing so.

...

I agree. The ex-Marine that is attempting to make this a public issue was mainly criticizing the Pentagon and the US gov't for failing to properly fund the war graves to insure they remain intact. However, the natives also seem to have a habit of littering their otherwise beautiful beaches with garbage and trash which goes out into the ocean...

Rising Sun*
07-22-2009, 09:43 PM
However, the natives also seem to have a habit of littering their otherwise beautiful beaches with garbage and trash which goes out into the ocean...

The rubbish disposal is the main problem that needs to be solved to protect the war graves.

It's a problem across the Pacific, because many, maybe most, islanders still follow traditional waste disposal methods with modern materials which aren't eaten by animals or bio-degraded like traditional food and natural materials waste. The sea was used as a waste remover in island societies which erected their huts over or near the water and dumped their waste, including bodily wastes (notice how delicate I can be when I'm being serious ;) ) straight into it, which caused its own disease problems but at least the wastes were broken down very quickly, unlike modern plastics and metals.

The problem is compounded on Tarawa because of the density of the population and because, like other atolls, there isn't a lot of land available for landfill.


Once famed for their white-sand beaches, the islands of the Pacific are threatened by a waste mountain. Rubbish now clogs streams flowing into the harbour in Samoa's capital Apia, and floats through the mangrove forests of Fiji.

Every part of the region is affected. And one of the biggest battles in many island societies, say experts, is raising awareness of the problem.

Traditional waste disposal in the Pacific consisted of throwing food scraps to your pigs, but swelling populations and the import of foreign goods have changed the makeup of domestic rubbish.

"The waste of yesterday was mostly natural," says Asterio Takesey, director of the South Pacific Regional Environment Programme.

"Now that many islands have entered the modern economy their consumption pattern has changed." The problems are worst in the low-lying atoll countries of Micronesia.

"Rubbish is piling up," says Ritia Bakineti, who works in waste management for Kiribati's branch of the programme.

Kiribati's capital South Tarawa is the most crowded corner of the Pacific, with nearly 40,000 people on a string of coral islets stretching for nearly 20 miles along the southern fringe of the atoll.

The most crowded islet, Betio, is more densely populated than Tokyo.

South Tarawa's households generate up to 6,500 tonnes of solid waste every year and its three landfill sites are ill equipped to cope.

A report in 2000 found that only one of the dump sites was protected by a sea wall, meaning that rubbish from the others gets swept out to sea and along Tarawa's beaches when high tides inundate the land.

Ritia Bakineti says that it does not need the tide to dump rubbish into the water.

"For households it's quite normal to push the rubbish out into the ocean or the lagoon," she says.

The effects are already tangible. Testing in the mid-1990s showed such high levels of pollution in Tarawa's lagoon that locals are now told not to eat raw shellfish from it.

There are also worries about contaminants from landfill sites leaching into Tarawa's fragile groundwater supplies.

Fresh water on atolls is pumped from the water lens, a narrow layer of rainwater floating on top of seawater seeping into the porous coral rock of the island.

This resource is easily exhausted or tainted, and in recent years Kiribati's health department has declared several wells unfit for use.

But Kiribati's problems are insignificant compared with compared to those of neighbouring Tuvalu, a country whose total land area is less than a third of that of Tarawa.

One recent report estimated that the 4,000 people living on the 2.4sq km capital islet of Fongafale generate around 20,000 cubic metres of waste per year.

The island's only licensed landfill has a capacity of 3,200 cubic metres, so large pits left over from the construction of its second world war airfield are increasingly used as unofficial dumping grounds.

When 'king tides' inundate the entire island, as they did in February this year, the retreating waters leave behind a detritus of washed-up debris.

Landfill manager Vavao Saumanaia says that waste is on a par with global warming, which many expect to sink the islands within 50 years.

Even traditional methods of rubbish disposal are getting out of hand - the 4,000-strong herd of pigs are creating their own waste problem.

For many of these islands recycling is an absolute must.

But the financial incentive is diminished by the relatively small amounts of material and by the cost of transport to far away compounders.

Where money and outside help is available, waste can be brought under control. Rarotonga is turning round its refuse problem, thanks to a $2.2m (£1.2m) landfill due to open next month. In Samoa there has been a Japanese-sponsored clean-up of the Tafaigata rubbish dump.

But Asterio Takesey says that the waste mountain is going to grow. "The Pacific needs to develop, and this waste is generated by growth." http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2004/nov/15/internationalnews.waste

Rising Sun*
07-22-2009, 09:49 PM
P.S.

This discussion demonstrates that gut reactions to an undesirable situation are often uninformed and unfair and that trying to understand the reasons which caused the situation are more likely to result in a satisfactory solution if those reasons are addressed.