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View Full Version : Irak, 6 years later. Aftermath of a dirty war.



Panzerknacker
05-29-2009, 05:21 PM
Some nights ago flipping channels almost by custom and no hoping find anything interesting in the cable tv ( actually I lost already all the faith that TV could amuse a rare mind like the mine) I realize something distressful.... The war in Irak is no more in the news or the headlines nor the headlines.

Had all the problems there been solved ?

Has been the victims, soldier, civilians, hostages, journalist forgotten so quickly ?

Honestly and despite my admiration towards the american way of acting in life ( admiration that had cost me some bitter conversations with brother, sisters and friends) is still hard to diggest how the US military forces were embroled themselves in such muddy waters.

I share the opinion of those who believe that this war had a cut off the readiness and willingness of the US military and political forces to commit in a future conflict, narrowing the acting space of mr Obama against more important menaces like is today Noth korea and the crazy mfs of Iran.

But of course I am thousand miles away and my visions and opinions could be distorted so I would like to hear others opinions specially from USA and UK.

tankgeezer
05-29-2009, 06:46 PM
It may be that without G.W. Bush to inspire them, the media must remain silent, or risk schmutzing Barack Obama. They cant very well be expected to undermine their own work in getting him elected. To the media (or useful idiots), Obama is the only way to undo all of the country's problems. (tho I think he is discovering the Presidency to be more a game of Captain may I, than one of Simon Says.)

Nickdfresh
05-30-2009, 06:29 PM
PK, if you're truly interested in this subject, I urge you to seek out a Spanish language edition (if available or even translated) of Thomas Rick's Fiasco. The book will go along way to clarifying things to you and addressing many of your points...

http://www.amazon.com/Fiasco-American-Military-Adventure-Iraq/dp/159420103X

Rising Sun*
05-31-2009, 06:42 AM
Regarding the first voting option, on an 'adjusted for inflation' basis would Iraq equal Vietnam in America's financial cost?

Not to mention the deep social and political divisions which occurred in America during Vietnam and which were far more disastrous domestically than anything that's happened during Iraq.

Also, what are the comparisons in troops and resources committed?

I would have thought, on a gut instinct basis, that Iraq was way behind Vietnam in every respect.

And, unlike Vietnam, it was a very well managed and very successful military operation.

It is the occupation that turned out badly.

Panzerknacker
05-31-2009, 09:43 AM
PK, if you're truly interested in this subject, I urge you to seek out a Spanish language edition (if available or even translated) of Thomas Rick's Fiasco. The book will go along way to clarifying things to you and addressing many of your points...



Thanks for the recomendation.



Regarding the first voting option, on an 'adjusted for inflation' basis would Iraq equal Vietnam in America's financial cost?



In that aspect i would say Vietnam cost more definately, it extended a longer period and used a larger quantity of military resourses ( aircrafts, ships,etc)

However I would dispute the social division thing, probably Irak is not behind in this aspect.

Rising Sun*
06-01-2009, 08:34 AM
However I would dispute the social division thing, probably Irak is not behind in this aspect.

I lived during that era and the social and political upheaval in America, and Australia, during Vietnam was vastly greater than anything that has happened over Iraq. It was probably the most divisive issue in America apart from the Civil War.

For example, there has been nothing like the deaths at Kent State University.


On May 4, l970 members of the Ohio National Guard fired into a crowd of Kent State University demonstrators, killing four and wounding nine Kent State students. The impact of the shootings was dramatic. The event triggered a nationwide student strike that forced hundreds of colleges and universities to close. H. R. Haldeman, a top aide to President Richard Nixon, suggests the shootings had a direct impact on national politics. In The Ends of Power, Haldeman (1978) states that the shootings at Kent State began the slide into Watergate, eventually destroying the Nixon administration. Beyond the direct effects of the May 4th, the shootings have certainly come to symbolize the deep political and social divisions that so sharply divided the country during the Vietnam War era. http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm

There hasn't been anything like the same sort of public protests that occurred repeatedly during Vietnam.

It's almost like Iraq is just running in the background of civilian life in the countries which have troops there.

A lot of that probably has to do with the fact that, whatever the implausible reasons offered to justify invading Iraq, the subsequent conduct of Islamic fanatics and the like in Iraq put them in the same category in many people's minds as the Taliban who supported bin Laden etc. Whether or not that is a correct assessment, they are more readily identified as an enemy of the sort that bin Laden represents than were the forces opposed to the Western forces in Vietnam in what was much more of a civil war into which the West intruded in its own interests.

Chevan
06-01-2009, 11:48 PM
But of course I am thousand miles away and my visions and opinions could be distorted so I would like to hear others opinions specially from USA and UK.
The thousand miles will have not saved you Latinos back in a case if once the US administration start the Third world Nuclear war, so i migh to understand your brother and sisters who don't share your admiration by the American militarists, who planned all the mess.
Though , i have to add, i respect those american/british/German/french soldiers pretty much - they actualy do dirty but necessary hard job in Afganistan.Just like our soldiers done in Checnia.

Rising Sun*
06-02-2009, 07:58 AM
...the American militarists, who planned all the mess...

They didn't plan the mess.

That's the whole problem.

What the Americans planned in Iraq was some imbecilic fantasy about invading Iraq and then being in control of it, completely oblivious to the obvious hostility towards them in the Arab and Islamic worlds, not to mention justifiable Iraqi opposition to being invaded by a foreign power, which all peoples in all nations dislike.

The unplanned mess is just the way it turned out, because as often happens with the Americans, and other relatively powerful nations in any conflict, they thought that because they had the military power to crush anyone militarily that that also meant they could control what happened afterwards. Because they confused the exercise of military power with exercising national and cultural control of people who don't welcome being invaded and oppressed by a foreigner, just like the Americans or the rest of us wouldn't if the positions were reversed.

The Americans and the rest of us involved in that calamity simply caused a cascading series of disasters, which currently threatens to see the Islamic crazies get control of nuclear Pakistan.

If that happens, it's more likely that India, or even Israel, will nuke Pakistan than America will. Assuming that the Islamic crazies don't nuke Israel first, although this would solve one set of problems while, alas, causing another set. After that it could just get out of control in the same way that WWI managed to be the result of an isolated act by another crazy.


The thousand miles will have not saved you Latinos back in a case if once the US administration start the Third world Nuclear war ...

Don't bet on it.

Whoever starts the nuclear shitfight, there's a lot be said for being where PK is and where I am, and not anywhere north of the equator, because it's all going to happen up your end of the planet. ;) :D

After that war, PK and I might be all that's left to keep this board going. :D

Panzerknacker
06-02-2009, 04:50 PM
On May 4, l970 members of the Ohio National Guard fired into a crowd of Kent State University demonstrators, killing four and wounding nine Kent State students. The impact of the shootings was dramatic

Shocking the willingnes of the NG to shoot demonstrator with full standar letal ammo using military rifles.




The thousand miles will have not saved you Latinos back in a case if once the US administration start the Third world Nuclear war


I think the mexican or cuban "latinos" will be more affected that anybody living in Argentina if that happen, by now the trouble seems to be more close to the Northern hemisphere, think Morth Korea and Iran.



i migh to understand your brother and sisters who don't share your admiration by the American militarists, who planned all the mess.



Wrong, read again tovarich, I say "...despite my admiration towards the american way of acting in life" havent mentioned the military in any place.




Don't bet on it.

Whoever starts the nuclear shitfight, there's a lot be said for being where PK is and where I am, and not anywhere north of the equator, because it's all going to happen up your end of the planet. ;) :D

After that war, PK and I might be all that's left to keep this board going.


Ah...no problem, around a 200 km radius there is plenty of mountains with deep caves so no problem. I will start to collect supplies, weapons, food and bottles of wine for the incoming 3rd war.

You administrator and me super Mod ? what you think RS ?

In any case it seems the only way I would have chance to become moderator again is in case of Nuclear war...quite shocking actually :mrgreen:

Chevan
06-02-2009, 11:28 PM
They didn't plan the mess.

That's the whole problem.
If that happens, it's more likely that India, or even Israel, will nuke Pakistan than America will. Assuming that the Islamic crazies don't nuke Israel first, although this would solve one set of problems while, alas, causing another set. After that it could just get out of control in the same way that WWI managed to be the result of an isolated act by another crazy.

How do you know the Pentagon didn't plan that?
I mean, to push India and Arab world to conflict.(Plus China in lucky case):)



After that war, PK and I might be all that's left to keep this board going. :D
Going to where , mate?
This Server is American, it will be the first attacked by Norther Korean missles:);)
Just don't forget to notify Nick when all be started, he must get out his *** from New-York for a couple of hours after beginning:)

Chevan
06-02-2009, 11:43 PM
I think the mexican or cuban "latinos" will be more affected that anybody living in Argentina if that happen, by now the trouble seems to be more close to the Northern hemisphere, think Morth Korea and Iran.

Morth Korea right now is testing the subcontinental Missle that easy might to reach the both americas:)
If Americans themself will attack the Asia by nuclear weapon it migh to call the encounter attack the American continent by CHinas and Russian missles.


Wrong, read again tovarich, I say "...despite my admiration towards the american way of acting in life" havent mentioned the military in any place.

Hmmmn, and then you've described what do you imply as "american way of acting in life"- Iraq.


Ah...no problem, around a 200 km radiu there is plenty of mountains with deep caves so problem. I will start to collect supplies, weapons, food and bottles of wine for the incoming 3rd war.

I've just imagined - the cave-man PK , fully drunk, alone is waiting for incoming war:)


You administrator and me super Mod ? what you think RS ?

In any case it seems the only way I would have chance to become moderator again is in case of Nuclear war...quite shocking actually :mrgreen:

It will be quite shocking for Brits , i have to add:)

Rising Sun*
06-03-2009, 08:24 AM
You administrator and me super Mod ? what you think RS ?

I don't think it will work, unless you have wireless internet in your cave, because we'll just continue as normal over here. ;) :D

Anyway, what work will we have to do, with all the northern hemisphere members dead or dying?

Herman will probably surivive a nuclear attack as he's not not normal ;) :D , but apart from that it'll just be you and me. :D

Maybe we could resolve the Malvinas issue, with Britain out of the picture, by having them administered impartially by New Zealand as the Kiwis get on quite well with sheep in cold climates. :D


In any case it seems the only way I would have chance to become moderator again is in case of Nuclear war...quite shocking actually :mrgreen:

Nah.

There's no need for nuclear war.

I'm sure that just a major natural catastrophe wiping out most of Europe and America, and the current mods, could see you being reconsidered. ;) :D

Rising Sun*
06-03-2009, 08:38 AM
How do you know the Pentagon didn't plan that?
I mean, to push India and Arab world to conflict.(Plus China in lucky case):)

Good point.

I don't know that.

I was just assuming that as the Bush / Cheney / Rumsfeld government (as distinct from the US military which actually had some training and experience in such issues and might have offered rather better informed assessments) couldn't find their arses with both hands standing on a magnifying mirror in a lighted room with an arse guide holding their hands, then the US government was just stupid in going into Iraq.

It never occurred to me that they thought past the first phase of crushing and occupying Iraq, and then controlling it.

So far, there is no evidence that they did.

Or, if they did, that they got it even half way correct.

Nickdfresh
06-03-2009, 10:02 AM
How do you know the Pentagon didn't plan that?
I mean, to push India and Arab world to conflict.(Plus China in lucky case):)

Going to where , mate?
This Server is American, it will be the first attacked by Norther Korean missles:);)
Just don't forget to notify Nick when all be started, he must get out his *** from New-York for a couple of hours after beginning:)

The Pentagon had little to do with "it." They planned the Iraq "fiasco" as far as the speedy blitz using tanks, the initial part that was very successful. But the planning for what happened next was almost completely nonexistent, which was why Gen. Tommy Franks exited right after the capture of Baghdad. But they were undermined by a chronically incompetent administration that sent far too few troops to actually secure the country. You see, the US Army was good at planning battles of armored maneuver and very poor at "nation-building" and lost all the old, hard lessons of counterinsurgency they had learned in Vietnam. Nation-building was something that George W. Bush was supposed to detest and really showed how much he detested it by sending incompetents to mismanage the occupation in every conceivable way...

And I live in a provincial city hundreds of km's to the west of New York City, so I'm not even sure how close I am to a major target. There's a large power-project dam to the north, and Toronto, Canada farther north. But I think I might be a few kilometers south of the targets unless they decide Buffalo is worth a nuke. :)

Panzerknacker
06-03-2009, 05:26 PM
I've just imagined - the cave-man PK , fully drunk, alone is waiting for incoming war


Drunk and happy, the only problem would be the mutant hares after the radiation, but with enough ammo...



I don't think it will work, unless you have wireless internet in your cave, because we'll just continue as normal over here.


Of course that is why wi-fi was invented for.



The Pentagon had little to do with "it." They planned the Iraq "fiasco" as far as the speedy blitz using tanks, the initial part that was very successful. But the planning for what happened next was almost completely nonexistent, which was why Gen.


Well...to succeed with 300 or 400 M1s spearheading an assault against an really weakened military you dont really need to be marshall Rommel reincarnated :rolleyes:

Nickdfresh
06-03-2009, 08:33 PM
...
Well...to succeed with 300 or 400 M1s spearheading an assault agaisnt an really weakened military you dont really need to mashall Rommel reincarnated :rolleyes:

But you have a very complex logistical chain supporting long columns of understrength formations...

Chevan
06-04-2009, 12:08 AM
Drunk and happy, the only problem would be the mutant hares after the radiation, but with enough ammo...

Don't bother about mutant hares.
Through couple of weeks yourself will look as mutant, that all hares mile around will be frighten to death

Chevan
06-04-2009, 12:15 AM
But you have a very complex logistical chain supporting long columns of understrength formations...

No , all you need is the american reincarnation of SS-brigadenfurher Oscar Dirlivanger.
Through month all Iraqi partisan will love the Obama as much as they love the Allah.
In case if any one partisan survived:)

Nickdfresh
06-04-2009, 10:15 AM
No , all you need is the american reincarnation of SS-brigadenfurher Oscar Dirlivanger.
Through month all Iraqi partisan will love the Obama as much as they love the Allah.
In case if any one partisan survived:)

We bought off most of the partisans with the Sunni "Awakening" movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awakening_movements_in_Iraq). Iraqi Sunni insurgents came over to what was essentially the American side for a variety of reasons. Not least of which is the fact we're paying them. Of course, the Iraqi Shiite dominated gov't is making every effort to seemingly piss this all away and possibly reignite the civil war rather than guarantee Sunni and Kurd rights to resources and political representation...

Firefly
06-04-2009, 01:28 PM
Maybe we could resolve the Malvinas issue, with Britain out of the picture, by having them administered impartially by New Zealand as the Kiwis get on quite well with sheep in cold climates.


It wont work, us brits that live on the Falklands will simply call it New Britania and re-start the Empire from here.

Firefly
06-04-2009, 01:40 PM
As for Iraq. I agree with the sentiments that thee war went well and the occupation did not and when I say did not, thats a huge understatement. No one had a clue about what to really do after the war was won. They all thought Iraq would suddenly become a democratic paradise.

How wrong they were!

Panzerknacker
06-04-2009, 04:01 PM
But you have a very complex logistical chain supporting long columns of understrength formations...

True, but that logistical trains and organization was hardly challenged in any way, there was a minuscule armored force remaining in Saddam hands, not to mention the completely aniquilation of the Iraqui Air Force wich ceased to exist long before the US armed forces invation.

One sided battle, again you dont need to be a brilliant strategist to won it.