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View Full Version : Von Stauffenberg: From Traitor to Hero



namvet
05-26-2009, 03:59 PM
learn something new everyday. and I never knew this

every year a German delegation observes the day Von Stauffenberg was executed.

http://www.gdw-berlin.de/ort/bilder/ort-ehrenhof.jpg

the couryard where he was executed. the figure is naked


http://images.suite101.com/431561_com_100_0866.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2yDpMm3fQg

what IF the war had ended in Jul of 44???? how many would have been saved ???? and how would the Russians reacted since they were still far away????

Ivaylo
05-26-2009, 07:45 PM
Simple answer the russians would find a reason to continue unless Germany didn't capitulate totally something that the majority of the German officers were against because in their eyes it was better to be torn out instead to capitulate again like in 1918 . After all that was a major stone in the nacionalsocialism - to bring back the power of Germany by any means and to punish all Allies , to bring new order based on one nation which is 1st amongst the others . One thing can't be denied Hitler had a very nice luck out there or he had a personal angel guardians , maybe the destiny was protecting him as far as i know there was another attempt in 1939 if i am not wrong .
So if the war ended ( which is hard to believe there were the SS pretorian soldiers who would fight to the end ) the fate of Germany wouldn't be much other than to be subjected to 3 rate country occupied with high reparations to pay . In the eyes of the Allies there was only one way Germany on it's knees no matter how so they wouldn't agree on anything else . Germany i expect would loose much of it's territories and would return back to maybe 1933 or maybe today's borders . As for the lifes saved they won't be enough - they won't never be because every single life is important , so it's hard to say and won't be important because till 1944 there were enough dead on every side , expecially civilians . I even suspect that if the russians signed treaty they would latter find a reason for the complete war and destuction of the Reich or maybe simply won't agree from the begining because they wanted full vengeance not just pre war borders no matter how many would die as we see from 1941-1942 Stalin threw many soldiers on sure death no matter how many .

Deaf Smith
05-26-2009, 08:19 PM
I understand Von Stauffenberg's reasoning. Daily he was watching his Germany being pounded into ashes. First from the air, and then on the ground. He, like his co-conspiritors, knew the war was lost and did not want to see millions more die for nothing.

But, like Himler later on, it would never pan out. The Allies wanted unconditional surrender and nothing less. And I wonder if Stauffenberg knew the effect of all those death camps to be found. If then told of what they had been doing (and I kind of wonder how he would NOT have known about it) he would have realized Germany was basicly a criminal state. Would the coup potters been forced to keep fighting or not? Who knows.

But even if Hitler had died and the coup had worked, they would still have been completly taken over. But I will say, yes millions would have lived on all sides.

Ah.. but there is a catch. If we had won in Germany in the summer of '44, we would have been ready to invade Japan before the Atomic Bomb had been even tested. Wonder how many we would have lost there!

Deaf

...---...2
05-28-2009, 12:43 PM
I watched this great documentary about Von Staffenberg after watching Valkyrie and it mentioned that there were 50 attempts on Hitler's life. For those who haven't seen Valkyrie yet here is a great segment from the special features about Bendlerblock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJl5She8VnI&NR=1

flamethrowerguy
05-28-2009, 05:45 PM
I remember reading an interesting point of view by some high-ranking German officers. They said basically the attempt was welcome however Stauffenberg should have assured its success by remaining in the room and -while holding the bomb- give Hitler a good hug just before the bomb detonated.
Conclusion: Stauffenberg should have sacrificed himself for the greater goal as he was willing to sacrifice the lifes of several other officers in the room.

Deaf Smith
05-28-2009, 09:12 PM
I remember reading an interesting point of view by some high-ranking German officers. They said basically the attempt was welcome however Stauffenberg should have assured its success by remaining in the room and -while holding the bomb- give Hitler a good hug just before the bomb detonated.
Conclusion: Stauffenberg should have sacrificed himself for the greater goal as he was willing to sacrifice the lifes of several other officers in the room.


Well maybe those high ranking German officers should have held the bomb then instead of Stauffenberg. Unlike some branches of Muslims (not all Muslims, just some), western civilization has always abhorred intentional suicide attacks with no chance of survival.

Hitler asked Gen. Galland once if the they could form kamikaze units like the Japanese. Galland said no in no uncertain terms!

Stauffenberg didn't need a bomb if he wanted to kill Hitler and die in the process. I'm sure he could have slipped in a handgun and just shot him dead.

Oh well, at least Stauffenberg tried. So many didn't.

Deaf

nkkie123
05-28-2009, 11:53 PM
is this true?i can't believe it..the photo is uploaded here in ww2incolorhttp://storeyourpicture.com/images/signature_imageHost.jpg

flamethrowerguy
05-29-2009, 07:09 AM
Well maybe those high ranking German officers should have held the bomb then instead of Stauffenberg. Unlike some branches of Muslims (not all Muslims, just some), western civilization has always abhorred intentional suicide attacks with no chance of survival.

It wouldn't have been the same like a "regular" Kamikaze attack, would it?
Although many officers -more or less clandestinely- wished for Hitler's removal they still felt committed to the oath. This won't mean much to you or to me but back then it did.



Hitler asked Gen. Galland once if the they could form kamikaze units like the Japanese. Galland said no in no uncertain terms!

Right, instead the "Rammjäger" (ram fighters) were introduced where a 10% chance of survival was granted.

Rising Sun*
05-29-2009, 07:50 AM
is this true?i can't believe it..the photo is uploaded here in ww2incolor

You have PM.

Read it and understand.

Deaf Smith
05-29-2009, 09:45 PM
Right, instead the "Rammjäger" (ram fighters) were introduced where a 10% chance of survival was granted.

Ten is better than zero. I fact, I think I've read of one Rammjäger pilot who survived ramming American bombers TWICE!

Deaf

Valkyrie
06-01-2010, 07:01 PM
Von Stauffenburg was a hero.Germany was on its knees with no hope of survival under Hitler and the Nazis at that stage in the war.If the plot had worked MAYBE a negociated peace might have come Germanys way and many more lives could have been saved.

Ivaylo
06-02-2010, 07:09 AM
Doubt it even if the plot had success Germany would receive the same peace conditions namely unconditional surrender , Prussian territories back to Poland .... with one word no big difference

Rising Sun*
06-02-2010, 11:07 AM
Von Stauffenburg was a hero.

What's heroic about bombing your own leader(s)?

What's heroic about leaving a bomb under a table and pissing off before it explodes?

Would an American colonel who did the same to Roosevelt, or a British colonel who did the same to Churchill, be a hero?

The average modern day Islamic suicide bomber has vastly more 'hero' qualities than von Stauffenberg.


Germany was on its knees with no hope of survival under Hitler and the Nazis at that stage in the war.

Germany wasn't on its knees on 11 July 1944.



If the plot had worked MAYBE a negociated peace might have come Germanys way and many more lives could have been saved.

Quite possibly.

But that assumes that removing Hitler didn't see his crew gain the upper hand and defeat von Stauffenberg etc with who knows what result for the future conduct of the war.

pingponghobo
06-15-2010, 07:17 PM
yea, i agree, i am all for stauffenbergs attmepts, but i believe that a suicide mission would have been more destrutive, either way atauffeberg would have died, unless hitler hadn't moved the breifing from the bunker, then he would have succeeded pretty much no maer what (unless hitler left) but a suicide mission would have worked better becasue he coulde get very close to hitler. Bassically, the only reason hitler lived was because an oak table got inbetween him and the bomb.

Valkyrie
06-16-2010, 01:35 AM
What absolute rubish.Germany was on its knees when the attack on Russia began to fail in 1943.Why would an allied officer wish to kill Eisenhower or Monty????? Stauffenburg knew what the Nazis had done,vis-a-vie the Holocaust and the constant bombing of German cities where civilians were been killed in their thousands.At least you can quote correctly.

Nickdfresh
06-16-2010, 07:52 AM
What's heroic about bombing your own leader(s)?

What's heroic about leaving a bomb under a table and pissing off before it explodes?
....


It was necessary for Von Stauffenberg to piss off after the bombing. He had to get back to Berlin to run the coup. His biggest error was not putting the two explosive charges in with the detonator, which WOULD have killed everyone in the cabin/conference room. I think he mistakenly believed he needed two detonators, one for each device when the blast would have set off both...

pingponghobo
06-16-2010, 12:19 PM
It was necessary for Von Stauffenberg to piss off after the bombing. He had to get back to Berlin to run the coup. His biggest error was not putting the two explosive charges in with the detonator, which WOULD have killed everyone in the cabin/conference room. I think he mistakenly believed he needed two detonators, one for each device when the blast would have set off both...

I was thinking that when i first learnt about this attemp a few years ago in a documentry about the happenings on July 20th 1944. In my unproffessional opinion i believe that that would work. and yes it was very nessecary to "piss off" because everyone else in the plot needed to know if it worked or not, the bomb went off, stauffenberg thought it was beside hitler, so he went off to berlin and said that hitler was dead. It also was very heroic to kill your leaders if they are the people who killed many many jews and other races, it was mass extermination.

Rising Sun*
06-17-2010, 10:11 AM
What absolute rubish.Germany was on its knees when the attack on Russia began to fail in 1943.

Really?

Then how did Germany manage to move onto a full war economy during the next year and then fight on until nearly the middle of 1945?

Is this part of your position that the Allies were nasty and cruel by continuing to attack the poor Germans until the Germans surrendered and that the Allies should have stopped fighting because, according to you, the Germans were on their knees?

What do you think Germany would have done if the Allies stopped fighting when, as you say, the attack on Russia began to fail in 1943? Sue for peace? Or just keep advancing into the USSR and everywhere else Germany wanted to go?



Why would an allied officer wish to kill Eisenhower or Monty?????

I don't know. I never said anything about either of them.

I referred only to Roosevelt and Churchill, to challenge your assertion that von Stauffenberg was a hero for trying to kill his own equivalent leader.


At least you can quote correctly.

And you can't, or choose not to.


Stauffenburg knew what the Nazis had done,vis-a-vie the Holocaust and the constant bombing of German cities where civilians were been killed in their thousands.

He must have been one of the few people in Germany who knew anything about the Holocaust during it, because they were almost impossible to find after the war.

I thought his opposition to Hitler went back long before the Allies mounted any meaningful bombing campaign against German soil, and for entirely unrelated reasons.

pingponghobo
06-17-2010, 03:16 PM
umm... im confused, what side is "valkyrie" on? the side saying that the valkyrie attempt is good or bad?