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Cpt_Prahl
05-15-2009, 02:49 PM
I'm curious to discuss the fight for elindorf ridge and possibly find some more information from unpublished sources.

As it stands the MOUNT system employed today by the US Army is based on the fight for Aachen, and in paticular it states that the real battle for Aachen took place outside of Aachen in the S/E sector known as Valerhultenhide Elindorf area.

I have several points I want to touch on so bear with me.

1st is Disposition of the German troops outside Aachen and false reports (I will have to dig in my archive and scan and post allot of it after but I am more curious on what you folks know about this part of the battle as in the S/E sector Crucifix hill.)

I have reports from both sides and the german reports are exagerated as statements made in the reports do not reflect the truth as My Grandfather is living proof of this or rather was. he would be 99 years old this September 27th..(29th fuisileers)Not to mention A book written by my Dear friend Sgt. Harley Reanolds who was in B co 1st Bat. which contradicts the German reports.

2nd would be that why or how could both sides screw up the reports so badly or in the case of Grandpa how could they screw up his Silver Star action date by a month,(very common in the Army) as the action on which he was sited took place exactly 1 month later. I will also show this in AARS and the like soon enough..

3rd How did a batalion at half strength at best beat off a well equipt enemy on their own soil while being outnumbered 10 to one at time's and still defeat an superior sized enemy force trying to relive the city.Exapmple is the attack of the 29th fuisilerrs with attached tanks from the 116 pnzr div being beaten mercilecly by a force less than half the size of the attacking force. Also the 3rg Panzer Granadier Div,12 German Infantry,394th Sturmgaschutz,105th panzer brigade and the
9th Panzer.

I hope we can have some fun from this one and learn some new things

All I expect at first is to hear what people know or have to say about this certain sector and battle.

In Paticular I know that the main body of troop's Gradfather fought against was the 116 Panzer Div and the 27th fuisilers there were others but the first two were the most significant, and also the 112 volks gren if I remember correctly.

Please mind me folks im super busy and am leaving for 5 to 6 weeks on an other expiditon around france belgium and germany..
Things to come will it just might be awhile. (This weekend) Also I ocassionaly make numerical errors with german divison elements as this is another aspect or the research I have not explored as much as I need and when I dont have reports infront of me mistakes can happen this is an problem when 1 person has to process a wars worth of paperwork alone!
I will be checking the forum weekly as I travel.

Grandfathers name rank and serial no: Cpt.Anthony J Prahl XO H co. 01310302

flamethrowerguy
05-16-2009, 01:49 PM
Just some basics for clarification.

We're talking about the US attack of early October 8, 1944 with the goal of full encirclement of Aachen and the German forces inside, right?
The gap was supposed to be closed by the 1st US Infantry Division from the south and 30th US Infantry Division from the north. These units were meant to meet in the Haaren-Verlautenheide-Eilendorf area just eastwards of Aachen.

Unfortunately I have no inside information about the US sources so I don't really know about the major contradictions.

Cpt_Prahl
05-16-2009, 01:52 PM
you are correct the 18th regiment of the BRO linked up with the some members of the 30th in ravens hill.

I have been researching this battle for several years I found some inconsitancies in the history nothing big but a few weird
inconsistancies in the offical history I will post some of the reports this sunday, showing what I am talking about. I also reviewed blood and sacrifice written by an aquaintance of mine Col.Steven Clay, he even said to me its impossible to get any history 100 procent correct as small unit histories sometimes get combined as to make the story less complicated.
Example heavy weapons companies are alwase refered to as the batalions heavy weapons its hard to track them and who in paticular was fighting where and with what rifel company, during Aachen Gramps was opconned off to I compnay some of his actions are why the 16th regiment or rather G and I cos recived a OLC to the PUC, and also why Grandfather recived the Forgerre in the colors of the Medal Militare, which was awarded to the 18th regiment not the 16th regiment, but some members a handfull were given this high honor because theior actions helped the 18th achive its mission.

Cpt_Prahl
05-27-2009, 02:33 PM
here is some more info on the specifics

"Cognizant of the dangers of piecemeal commitment, General Schack assured the 12th Division commander, Col. Gerhard Engel, that he would try to wait until the entire division had arrived.51 He kept the promise less than twenty-four hours. Straight from the railroad station at Juelich General Schack sent the first battalion of the 27th Fusilier Regiment to Verlautenheide, north of Eilendorf, whence the battalion was to attack on 17 September to thwart the thrust of CCA, 3d Armored Division, toward Eschweiler. The second battalion of the 27th Fusiliers moved to Stolberg. When the other two regiments and some of the organic artillery detrained before daylight on 17 September, General Schack ordered them to start immediately driving CCB from the vicinity of the Weissenberg (Hill 283) and Mausbach in order to restore the Schill Line southeast of Stolberg.52"

"Renewing the two-pronged thrust toward Eschweiler on Q September, both combat commands of the 3d Armored Division bumped head on into the German reinforcements. On the left, while CCA was getting ready to attack shortly before dawn, the Germans began a heavy artillery barrage against both CCA and the 16th Infantry at Eilendorf. Plunging out of a woods between Verlautenheide and Stolberg, men of the 27th Fusilier Regiment charged in well-disciplined waves with fixed bayonets. They made a perfect target for prepared artillery and mortar concentrations. Those who got through the curtain of shellfire were cut down close to American foxholes with small arms and machine gun fire. Though the fusiliers tried again in the afternoon and prevented CCA from attacking, they gained no ground. American casualties were surprisingly light. The hardest hit battalion of the 16th Infantry, for example, lost two men killed and twenty-one wounded."

Taken from the US Army Mil online library page 87 chapter 9 of the Seiegfried Line Campain.

Here is my issue My Granfathers Silver Star Citation reads the 17th of sep for calling artillery upon his own position but according to him this happened much later in October when the 29th Fuiseers attacked his position covering the line between G and I co's of the 16th rct. this happened after the 16th oct. because he and 8 men were opconned off to I co on this date.

here is and History entry from 4.2.org history reports from the 87th Chemical Mortar Batt.

17 Sep:
"Company B fired 446 rounds of HE and 61 rounds of WP from 0700 to 1400 against a very determined attack on the positions occupied by the 16th Inf, 1st Div. The bulk of this fire was laid along a road which the Germans had to cross and on trails which led perpendicular to this road. Fire was later shifted to a body of woods where activity was observed."

this was also an action where My Grandfather was the guy up front and called in arty on this group of germans but it was not the same battle that he called arty on himself.

this was here: 16th Oct.

On orders from the Commanding General, 1st Division, a third platoon was organized and placed in general support of the 16th Infantry. One Officer and nine enlisted men from the 16th Inf are assisting in the operation of this platoon.


And the Action he actually did that gave him the Silver Star for the 17th sep action!!!!!

22OCT:

The 3rd platoon of Company B, supporting the 16th Inf, 1st Div, passed to the control of the Commanding Officer, Company A, effective 0800 and combined into one six-gun platoon. The 1st and 2nd platoons, Co B, placed 121 rounds of HE, observed fire, on enemy personnel and vehicular concentrations in woods in front of I Company, 16th Inf. The Company headquarters and 1st platoon displaced forward to Haaren, thus placing the entire company in the vicinity of this city.


I think that the army tried to cover up the fact that several days before the 3rd platoon was organised someone delivered WW I ammo with tumbling fuzes this cause a round to explode while exiting the rifeled tube it killed the crew and wounded some others. because of this the mortars were lanyard fired after this incident this cause the first salvo to miss and correction time to be to long for Gramps to call a quick correction he instead called for atry on his position because he knew that within the 3 minutes it would take for the second salvo to fall they would be ovverun and this is exactly what happened.

hece in my opinion of the date change for the citation and also years of trouble it caused my Grandfather politcally in the army his CO In I co recived the DSC for this action for what my grandfather Did.

As the old saying goes The right way the wrong way and the army way.....

so My point being to all you young historians out there dont belive everything you read it is not eched in stone no History is 100% correct.

I just gave you the proof.

all info found here for D-Day to VE Day for 87th Chemical found here..they were attached to the BRO from after D-Day up till the Battle of the bulge.
http://www.4point2.org/hist-87.htm#1043

Cpt_Prahl
08-15-2009, 04:14 AM
Once again I see no one has a comment on some real history makes me sad that so many people who claim to know allot about WW II have zero to add to what I have been studying but then again I am researcher, writer and Historian so my level of expertese is way beyond the layman so I must apoligise if I come of arrogant.

I on my trip made contact with a gentleman who lives in Haarn outside of Aachen and has a book written in German by the town Fathers on wat happened in Elindorf during this battle so in the near future he will be providing me with the German side of the battle should be interesting to see what is stated. Somewhere in my vast archive of research I have some German Reports from the Battle, I'll post them here as to show you more of what I am talking about "that history isnt what you read in Books 90% of the time"
Just like in life as in History you have to read between the lines to get the truth" Me

"The Truth Hurts when you are getting colser to the Truth" Ssgt Harley Reanolds said to me on one of our many talks over the last few years

Rising Sun*
08-15-2009, 10:03 AM
Once again I see no one has a comment on some real history makes me sad that so many people who claim to know allot about WW II have zero to add to what I have been studying but then again I am researcher, writer and Historian so my level of expertese is way beyond the layman so I must apoligise if I come of arrogant.

We have zero to add because none of us know anywhere as much as you do.

We're profoundly grateful to you for condescending to shine your brilliant light of knowledge into the dark caves of ignorance we sad laymen inhabit beneath the golden feet of researchers, writers and Historians of such stellar expertise as your august self.

You do not come across as arrogant, but merely as a fount of historical knowledge which you generously share with lesser mortals for the common good.

We are privileged to have you in our midst.

Nickdfresh
08-15-2009, 06:43 PM
...
Please mind me folks im super busy and am leaving for 5 to 6 weeks on an other expiditon around france belgium and germany..
...

Try not to scare the locals by walking on water and healing lepers...

Cpt_Prahl
08-16-2009, 09:31 AM
Nice disrespecting the bibel and me now your a real winner Nick! This is why I rarely bother even looking on this fourm because of blowhards like you it's amazing that somone with your lack of maturity is a moderator!

Are you here to learn or be an arrogant ****head I think the latter!

glad there are other fourms with people who are helpfull and interested in real history and making new discoveries unlike here which is mostly full of egotistical weakinglings who can only make cheap shots at people oh and yes I am contacting the owner of this site and going to have a little discussion with him on your behavior which is totally out of line and unprofessional!

Get a life NickFresh! oh yeah I forgot you dont have one outside of being a bully on this Fourm!

Nickdfresh
08-16-2009, 09:36 AM
Nice disrespecting the bibel and me now your a real winner Nick! This is why I rarely bother even looking on this fourm because of blowhards like you it's amazing that somone with your lack of maturity is a moderator!


Sorry. We can't all be humble and classy like you.

BTW, how many forums have you been where you throw a temper tantrum in a thread because not everyone is fixated on a singular battle that you are apparently fixated on? How does that generally work out for you?

Cpt_Prahl
08-16-2009, 09:39 AM
Sorry. We can't all be humble and classy like you.

BTW, how many forums have you been where you throw a temper tantrum in a thread because not everyone is fixated on a singular battle that you are apparently fixated on? How does that generally work out for you?

I expressed dissapointment temper tantrum your a better example of that and on other fourms there at least adults unlike you.

Nickdfresh
08-16-2009, 09:55 AM
I expressed dissapointment temper tantrum your a better example of that and on other fourms there at least adults unlike you.


Actually, you expressed "disappointment" by calling everyone here out for not immediately being fixated on your historical genius...

Cpt_Prahl
08-16-2009, 10:03 AM
If that is how you with your febel understanding of what I am trying to accomplish interperates my statement then good for you Nick!

There is an old saying if you havent anything good to say dont sa yanytihng at all, sure I am a **** and have allot of attitude but unlike you I can back it up with real facts from real sources and not just site other peoples work but my own and you?

All I see from 99 procent of your posts is your wonderfull ability to try to be better than everyone else sad really your are the most pathetic kind of person you hide behind your computer and bash people from a distance shows your maturity level and inability to be constructive as some adults like me try so very hard to do..

BTW I have emaild the staff of this site the owner of this site I and I hope that one of them has the maturity to take away your moderator status for you behavior.

I post on this fourm to mabe find some more information from other people on this subject and if on this fourm there is noone so be it no big deal its just dissapointing.

But I suppose for you it's your life since you seem to have allot of time to wase here spouting your wonderfull opinion of things and people you dont even know nor understand.

Have a nice life Nick!

Nickdfresh
08-16-2009, 10:13 AM
Maybe we can make you Mod for the day, so you can run everything just like you want? :)

Rising Sun*
08-16-2009, 10:46 AM
Are you here to learn or be an arrogant ****head I think the latter!

If so, Nick couldn't find a teacher better qualified than you in that regard.

Rising Sun*
08-16-2009, 10:48 AM
, sure I am a **** and have allot of attitude but unlike you I can back it up with real facts from real sources ...

You sure are a **** with a lot of attitude, which you back up with real facts from real sources. Such as your own posts.

Rising Sun*
08-16-2009, 10:59 AM
All I see from 99 procent of your posts is your wonderfull ability to try to be better than everyone else sad really your are the most pathetic kind of person you hide behind your computer and bash people from a distance shows your maturity level and inability to be constructive as some adults like me try so very hard to do.

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion


Robert Burns
To a Louse

Nickdfresh
08-16-2009, 11:23 AM
And on that note. Closed for a while...