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freyir_33
03-28-2009, 03:56 AM
Sometimes thinking of the 40.000 members of the Danish minorities in Germany who was forced to fight for Germany in WWI, then I started to wonder how some of the Mongols, and Kirgisians must have felt in the Red army.

I once saw I poster showing an old asian woman holding a plate with a picture of her dead son, surrounded by red army medals. The picture made a greate impression on me, and I would like to know if someone got any red army pictures those Asian servicemen to whom we owe so much.

Chevan
03-31-2009, 01:40 AM
How many were asians in red Army?
Well the question is simpe indeed. The Red Army was a conscript army - thus the awerage persentage of tribe personel was the same that the Soviet population was( except the " polutical unreliable" nations kinda Tatars, Kalmucs and ets)
The census of 1939 pretty well demonstartets that figures.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%8E%D0%B7%D0%BD%D 0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1 %81%D1%8C_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0% BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0_1939_%D0%B 3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0
Russians- 100 mln
Ukrainians ( without Western Ukraine) - 28 mln
Belorussians - 5 mln
That is more than 78% of population of USSR( 170 mln in 1939).
The general Asian population
Uzbeks - 5 mln
Kazahs- 3 mln
Azers - 2 mln
Tatars - 4 mln.
Altogether- no more 20 mln of Asian in USSR:)12%
So we might to say with great probability that the Asians of Red Army indeed NEVER exceeded .... 12%
To the contrast the Goebbels propogand , who traditionally PRed the Red Army as Asiatic Horde:)
The MAJORITY of Red Army was - Aryan ( Russian , ukrainians belorussians).

freyir_33
04-01-2009, 03:40 PM
What about the Mongolian peoples army?, did they only see action in the Manchurian campaign, or did they also fight in the west?

Schuultz
04-02-2009, 01:25 PM
I'm pretty sure they fought in the West, too. I've seen plenty of German pictures of them as POWs, though I've seen very few Russian images of them. Were the Soviets ashamed of them?

freyir_33
04-03-2009, 12:09 AM
Interesting question, on soviet propaganda posters you often have scenarios of brothers in arms from the different repulics, but I have not found many war Photoes of red army (east)Asian's in action.

http://www.talkingproud.us/ImagesHistory/Soviet60th/LadyFlagTomb.jpg

But maybe I should ask the guy on photo standing at the back, ;)

Chevan
04-03-2009, 07:03 AM
What about the Mongolian peoples army?, did they only see action in the Manchurian campaign, or did they also fight in the west?

As i know the Mongolian peoples army never fought on the west.
Only in the Mongolia( Manchguria 1945)

Chevan
04-03-2009, 07:06 AM
I'm pretty sure they fought in the West, too. I've seen plenty of German pictures of them as POWs, though I've seen very few Russian images of them. Were the Soviets ashamed of them?

DO not mix up the Soviet Asian ( uzbeks, kazah, tatars) who look rather like mongolians for you and me:)

Nickdfresh
04-03-2009, 07:36 AM
Ambrose (in "Citizen Soldiers") writes of American soldiers encountering bodies and capturing POWs of various Asiatic racial characteristics in Wehrmacht uniforms which confused them. Having been indoctrinated on Nazi racism, they didn't understand how so many different ethniticities, including Eastern European Slavs conscripted into the Heer from POW Camps and detentions, could be a part of Hitler's army...

I think the paraphrased quote given in the book by one sergeant is: "Who the hell are we fighting anyway?"

Chevan
04-04-2009, 12:46 AM
I think the paraphrased quote given in the book by one sergeant is: "Who the hell are we fighting anyway?"
One of the most amazing thing for me was when i've learned about Tatars and Azeri SS units :)
Poor Goebbels, he so loved to show in DW-newsreel for the GErman public the asian "subhumans" among the Red Army pows:)
But during last phase of war the "mongolian/tatars/any hordes" were pretty well welcomed in SS itself:)

Schuultz
04-04-2009, 07:34 AM
One of the most amazing thing for me was when i've learned about Tatars and Azeri SS units :)
Poor Goebbels, he so loved to show in DW-newsreel for the GErman public the asian "subhumans" among the Red Army pows:)
But during last phase of war the "mongolian/tatars/any hordes" were pretty well welcomed in SS itself:)

True, they eventually started to realize that race doesn't really matter when the projectiles are flying over your head.

But are you sure the Tatars were SS units? I thought they were normal Wehrmacht?

Chevan
04-06-2009, 07:59 AM
But are you sure the Tatars were SS units? I thought they were normal Wehrmacht?
I thought so too.
But the Tatars legion of SS has been created even sooner then the rest:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Waffen_SS_units#Waffen_SS_Foreign_Legions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatar_Legion

Schuultz
04-06-2009, 08:38 AM
I'm wondering what those guys motivation was... Did they fight because they hated communism and its ban of religion? Or did they not realize the plans and sentiments of the NS leadership?

I understand why the RLA would fight the Soviets, but I just don't get the Tartars or the other Slavic & Muslim units...

Chevan
04-08-2009, 07:52 AM
I'm wondering what those guys motivation was... Did they fight because they hated communism and its ban of religion? Or did they not realize the plans and sentiments of the NS leadership?

Most likely the Germans promised them "independence and lands" ( former russian:)) in furture. But who know , the islamic tatars were very warlike nation ( like Chechens or Ingushs) so i suppose , essential part of them were going to join the Wermacht/SS for the personal profit.
As for "hated communism", hmmmn i don't think the Tatars were specialy oppressed or suppressed pre-war nation in USSR compared , say to native Russians. Moreover, this is well known fact , the bolshevics were multinational who hated all sort of ethnic nationalism ( russian nationalism - especialy), and the Russian suffered even more then the other nation of USSR.BTW first they have made after coming to power- destroyed almost all of the Ortodoxy russian churches.
The National elites even owned the special previligies in SOviet russia, compared to "senior brother".


I understand why the RLA would fight the Soviets, but I just don't get the Tartars or the other Slavic & Muslim units...
i think the answer isn't such a hard:)
There a lot of special sort of peoples who ready to colloborate with any inviders , who will promise them ( or just hint to promise) a moon or fortune when the "War will have been over".
Such sort of people were ready to cooperate with any inviders, but at the same time- would have betrayed them first , when the situation will be critical.
Add to it that the Race-hate propogand , that was in basis of "new order", simply deceived the millions of peoples for the first time.
But it can't be endless.
Even the such devoited friends of Germany as Ukrainian nationalists( who were so glad and happy in 1941 when Wehrmacht has "liberated" Ukraine:)), in 1943 openly declared the war on GErmnas occupation troops.As well many SLavic colloborators , who did not soil their reputation by war crimes, voluntary surrendered to Red Army or turned their weapon against former GErmans comrides.
Beeing deceived by their own propogand, believing that the colloborators "fought agains communism for Europe together with GErmany", the GErmans themself has been bitter distressed by the unprincipled peoples from all of occuped nations , who in fact, just waiting the moment to stick the knife at GErmans back.

freyir_33
04-18-2009, 02:21 AM
True, they eventually started to realize that race doesn't really matter when the projectiles are flying over your head.
Wehrmacht?


:lol: surely strange alliances can be build in a conflict situation

Werecat
04-27-2009, 12:34 AM
I've often read, or heard Germans that were alive druing WW2 describe the Red Army as a "Mongol Horde." Esepcially when they came into Germany itself. By the time the Red Army got to Berlin historians have said that many of the Red Army soldiers were Asian and didn't even speak Russian. I have to say that I've rarely seen Asian soldiers in Soviet Propagandha photos. Who knows if this was on purpose, or not. V. Lenin himself had a somewhat Mongolian looking face.

freyir_33
05-09-2009, 08:14 AM
I've often read, or heard Germans that were alive druing WW2 describe the Red Army as a "Mongol Horde." Esepcially when they came into Germany itself. By the time the Red Army got to Berlin historians have said that many of the Red Army soldiers were Asian and didn't even speak Russian. I have to say that I've rarely seen Asian soldiers in Soviet Propagandha photos. Who knows if this was on purpose, or not. V. Lenin himself had a somewhat Mongolian looking face.

And the allied called the Germans "HUNS", it is amazing what you can do with words ;)

Chevan
05-14-2009, 05:30 AM
I've often read, or heard Germans that were alive druing WW2 describe the Red Army as a "Mongol Horde." Esepcially when they came into Germany itself. By the time the Red Army got to Berlin historians have said that many of the Red Army soldiers were Asian and didn't even speak Russian. I have to say that I've rarely seen Asian soldiers in Soviet Propagandha photos. Who knows if this was on purpose, or not. V. Lenin himself had a somewhat Mongolian looking face.
Yes i heard about german racial sentences toward asians too.They liked Asians almost as much as the jews:)
Funny enough, especialy if to keep in mind that one of their Best axial ally was .......asiatic Japane.
As for me , i met few of asian in my army, couple were in my platoon.( One from Syberia, second from Kalmykia)). They actualy speak russian very bad.
Can't say nothing negavite about that people , russian muslims conscripts from Dagestan created much more problems for us tha all asians together.

Schuultz
05-14-2009, 07:01 AM
Funny enough, especialy if to keep in mind that one of their Best axial ally was .......asiatic Japane.

Frankly, I'm not so sure about that. I've never really read about the relation between Germany and Japan, and we obviously can't ask Hitler anymore, but I always had the feeling that he saw Japan more or less as a means to the end, a way to keep Russia and Britain busy on the other end of the world while he goes around conquering Europe and Africa (or so was the plan)

Schuultz
05-14-2009, 07:18 AM
Other question:

Was there any difference in treatment for Aryan-looking Russians? It's obvious that there were/are Russians that won't fit into the Nazi's stereotype of how Russians looked, and from what I've seen, many look almost as if they had jumped out of Hitler's book for the ideal Aryan.

Must have surprised some of the most brainwashed soldiers when the Russians didn't all look like either Mongols or Neanderthals...

Chevan
05-14-2009, 07:35 AM
Frankly, I'm not so sure about that. I've never really read about the relation between Germany and Japan, and we obviously can't ask Hitler anymore, but I always had the feeling that he saw Japan more or less as a means to the end, a way to keep Russia and Britain busy on the other end of the world while he goes around conquering Europe and Africa (or so was the plan)
As i know Hitler hoped to keep mostly USA busy with Japane , out from European war.Japanes falled short of Hitler's expectration to attack USSR during authumn 1941.
Furher was so glad when Japanes attacked Perl-Harbour, that immediately has declared war on America.
To his bitter woe:)

Chevan
05-14-2009, 07:44 AM
Other question:

Was there any difference in treatment for Aryan-looking Russians?
i doubt it.
Although the separate ethnic group of non aryan-looking red army soldiers/officers like jews( or commissars- the same in germans eyes) , should be immediately executed according Wehrmach order - can we call it "different treatment"?
Probably aryan-looking russians might hope for better destiny (if not die month later from hunger or sickness in camp) .
though about 2 mln of Soviet pows have survived the captivity, so we can conclude that GErmans didn't kill everyone.

gumalangi
05-19-2009, 12:20 PM
Frankly, I'm not so sure about that. I've never really read about the relation between Germany and Japan, and we obviously can't ask Hitler anymore, but I always had the feeling that he saw Japan more or less as a means to the end, a way to keep Russia and Britain busy on the other end of the world while he goes around conquering Europe and Africa (or so was the plan)

I ever red somewhere,. when singapore fell to Japanese,
not everyone in Germany were too happy..

Hitler murmured,." should the british had had accepted his terms on the peace over europe, they would not need knelt to the asians,."

colonel77
06-27-2009, 05:51 PM
In 1989 in Lithuania not all of lithuanian people speaking in russian, and what?
Normaly in USSR if you are living at the village russian language not necessary to you.
At the scool, at work you will use your native language (in USSR were more then 150 languages)

Sturmfuhrer
11-26-2010, 05:58 PM
Interesting question, on soviet propaganda posters you often have scenarios of brothers in arms from the different repulics, but I have not found many war Photoes of red army (east)Asian's in action.

http://www.talkingproud.us/ImagesHistory/Soviet60th/LadyFlagTomb.jpg

But maybe I should ask the guy on photo standing at the back, ;)


There lots fotoes with asians in RKKA but in Soviet Union it wasn`t a point who you are. Point was what you do.
Most of middle asian soldiers were very low educated and badly speaking Russian unless soviet authorities attempts to inegrate them in education programms.
Most of Russian vests discribes it like " one injured 10 carry him to evacutain point." or " one killed ten sitting around him and crying" and it all happened during fighting.
Often can find info that assault group was formed from slavyanians as best fighters. During Kerch operation Kozlov asked for slavyanian reenforcement without central asians soldiers.
For item: Central Asian Republics is Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan and ets. Mongolia was never part of Soviet Union. Tatars too long leaves with Russians are hardly distinguished current days.