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DavidW
03-24-2009, 10:20 AM
Does anyone know which were the first British units to receive the Sherman MkIII (M4A2)?

I have seen one in the livery of the Royal Scots Greys in December of 1942, and their are loads by Spring of 1943. But could we place any at Alamein for instance?

jopped
03-24-2009, 03:27 PM
The New Breed, Part 1 North Africa colour and markings series by Dennis Oliver and Michael Starmer: On 23 October 1942, Sherman III tanks accounted for approximately 30 vehicles out of the 252 Shermans equipping operational unids.

Also according to this book, 24th Armoured Brigade (ex 8th armoured division, not 10th armoured division, but retaining 8th armoured divisional sign), had the first Sherman III's. Large names were painted onto the rear hull of these vehicles. 41st (Oldham) RTR exaples are Coyote and Cocky. Cocky was the battalions first cassualty, but was repaired, and was apparantly handed over to the 4th (light) armoured brigade, whith whoom it went into action again, and was knocked out again.

When the first replasement tanks arived, most were Sherman III's, and when the Tunesian campaign started, most Sherman's were Sherman III's.

So, concluding, as far as I know, 24th armoured brigade, led the first Sherman III's into action at El Alamein. It may have been that some other unids had Sherman III's also at the time, but none are mentioned as far as I'm aware. But yes, some were used at El Alamein, and a lot in the closing phase of the Africa campaign and the Tunesian campaign.

Cheers,
Joppe

DavidW
03-24-2009, 04:52 PM
Hi jopped.

Brian Perrett has "Cocky" in the Royal Scots Greys in December 1942, in his book "British tanks in North Africa 1940 - 1942".
Which would put it in the 4th Lt Armoured Brigade. Which all ties in nicely with what you have quoted from Oliver & Stamer".

Thanks.

jopped
03-24-2009, 06:27 PM
Jup, very often, especialy for the advansing party, knocked out tanks could be recovered and repaired and then be sent back into action. This is what happened to Cocky.

By the way, do you have a link to a site where I can find more information about Brian Perrett's book? The title sounds very interesting!!!

Cheers,
Joppe

DavidW
03-25-2009, 02:26 AM
Here!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Tanks-Africa-1940-42-Vanguard/dp/0850454212/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237965963&sr=1-1

jopped
03-25-2009, 05:28 AM
Alright... thank you very much!

Cheers,
Joppe

DavidW
03-25-2009, 07:49 PM
I have since discovered that "Cocky went from 41 R/T/R to the Scots Greys, via 47 R/T/R!
A much travelled vehicle.;)

DavidW
03-26-2009, 06:58 AM
Related question.

Does anyone have any illustrations or photgraphs of the .50 Cal A/A Machine gun mount & location on the turret of an M4A2?

jopped
03-26-2009, 07:38 AM
http://www.panzermodelling.com/Taller/Sherman_mk3/Sherman_mk3_box.jpg

This might show something...
Sherman III's had the regular Sherman split hatch, to which the MG was attatched. The hatch could be welded to the turred in different positions, and possible could even rotate, I am unsure about that. On most Sherman III's, the hatches opened to the sides, while most Sherman II's at the time had hatches that opend up to the front and rear.

British tank crews didn't like the 50 cal, so they often removed them. This seems to have been done more to the Sherman III's then to Sherman II's, also because by the time most III's came into action, crews had more experience.

Are you making a model of a British Sherman III?

Cheers,
Joppe

DavidW
03-26-2009, 08:39 AM
Are you making a model of a British Sherman III?


Yes, a 41 R/T/R M4A2 circa November 1942. 1/72 scale

I should have made that last post read .30 Calibre M/Gun Not .50 Calibre.
The .50 Calibre was not re-introduced until February 1943.

It would appear that on the split hatch, it was mounted around the outer hatch ring. I was just wondering where? Like on a clock face.
I have seen one mounted at about 11 o'clock (assuming that exactly in line with the main gun is 12 o'clock).

Cheers, David.

Saxon
03-27-2009, 08:07 AM
Is this what you are looking for:


http://dc109.4shared.com/img/95270753/2547898/sfusiliers_caen.jpg (http://www.4shared.com/file/95270753/2547898/sfusiliers_caen.html)



This is a Fusiliers Sherman in Caen 1944. But there is a small "RC" painted on the lower front hull, which may indicate that this is a Canadian unit?

Saxon
03-27-2009, 08:33 AM
Two more photos:

The first is definately a British Sherman. Is that a gun mount at 6 o'clock?

http://dc109.4shared.com/img/95276793/8b8a6848/ortona_c2.jpg (http://www.4shared.com/file/95276793/8b8a6848/ortona_c2.html)



This photo looks like British and US troops. The Sherman has a 30 or 50 cal at 6 o'clock.

http://dc109.4shared.com/img/95276800/c81dc586/M4A4DuoM4A2M7Sextons.jpg (http://www.4shared.com/file/95276800/c81dc586/M4A4DuoM4A2M7Sextons.html)
[/IMG]

ps. My guess is that this is Italy 1943

jopped
03-27-2009, 04:12 PM
Basicly, you can mount the .30 the same way as a .50. They were mounted on the same location... But if I had to say, I'd plase it between 11 and 1 o'clock, or between 5 to 7 o'clock, which seems to be most historical based on photo's I've seen...

Good luck with the model, I believe 41 RTR was the senior regiment, so AoS should be 40. Also, not that 24th armoured brigade used AoS' with a green background, as in 8th armoured division, they were the second armoured brigade.

Cheers,
Joppe

DavidW
03-27-2009, 06:31 PM
They were the Senior Regiment at that time.:)

jopped
03-28-2009, 06:36 AM
Jup,.. most pictures of Sherman III's I've seen in the book I mentioned before, do have .50's, if they have a machine gun mounted...

Cheers,
Joppe

jopped
03-28-2009, 07:54 PM
Do you happen to know something about the air recognition roundels?
Today, I build a Dragon models Sherman II, from El Alamein, 1/35. I was wondering, where to put the roundel, on the engine deck or on the turret top...

I've seen plenty of photo's of Sherman III's where the roundel was on the deck, but where did it go on (most) Sherman II's? Both tipes were used at the time, and no real rules are mentioned in the books I have about the exact location.

Cheers,
Joppe

DavidW
03-28-2009, 07:59 PM
If you know which unit (R/T/R) the model represents, I'll see if I can garner some info.

Engine deck does seem to be the location of choice for the MkIII.

jopped
03-28-2009, 08:20 PM
I'm making a HQ vehicle of 24th armoured brigade (ex-8th armoured division, now unther 10 armoured division command). Vehicle name is Dundee, T 14050. Later on, it seems to have been moved on to C squadron, 9th Lancers, as there is another decal option for that vehicle, which has the same regestration number.

Cheers,
Joppe

Saxon
03-28-2009, 09:39 PM
Do you happen to know something about the air recognition roundels?
Today, I build a Dragon models Sherman II, from El Alamein, 1/35. I was wondering, where to put the roundel, on the engine deck or on the turret top...

I've seen plenty of photo's of Sherman III's where the roundel was on the deck, but where did it go on (most) Sherman II's? Both tipes were used at the time, and no real rules are mentioned in the books I have about the exact location.

Cheers,
Joppe

I recall there was no rules about location except that it had be on the top of the vehicle. The size of the roundel was a firm rule (different size for top and side) but the location was left to crews, I thought.

jopped
03-29-2009, 03:55 AM
Alright,.. Well, in that case I think I'll go for the turret top...

Cheers,
Joppe

jopped
03-29-2009, 10:08 AM
Well, I just finished DUNDEE... now I have to find a crew and some stowage... But the basic model is done and painted, and looks realy good.

Very interesting subject, these eary war Shermans!

Cheers,
Joppe

navyson
03-30-2009, 06:14 AM
Well, I just finished DUNDEE... now I have to find a crew and some stowage... But the basic model is done and painted, and looks realy good.

Very interesting subject, these eary war Shermans!

Cheers,
Joppe

Hi Joppe,
Do you have a way to post pictures of your project? It would be nice to see if possible. Thanks!

jopped
03-30-2009, 03:15 PM
I'll see if I can when I'm home. That would take some day's, as I'm in hospital. I had surgery today, but if all goes well I should be home at the end of the weak.

DavidW, when you finish your model, could you please share it as well?
What kit are you building? The Sherman III from Dragon?

Cheers,
Joppe

DavidW
03-30-2009, 06:26 PM
Hope the surgery went well, and that you are soon feeling better.

No way I'm exhibiting my efforts at modelling here, or anywhere else for that matter!

Quite apart from the fact that the new digital camera my wife bought is rubbish, I haven't used my scanner in so many years, that I'm not sure I even remember how it all works!

jopped
03-31-2009, 07:23 AM
Hehe, okee... I can imagine that. Don't expect my photo's will be that great either!!!
But I'll be happy to upload one or two.

Surgery went well, I'll probably be sent home in two days or so...

Cheers,
Joppe

DavidW
03-31-2009, 07:37 AM
Surgery went well, I'll probably be sent home in two days or so...


Glad to hear it.:)

navyson
03-31-2009, 07:53 AM
Surgery went well, I'll probably be sent home in two days or so...


Glad to hear your surgery went well, and I hope you recover quickly. I've put together quite a few models in my time, but just over the last few years have really tried my hand at painting them. So I'd be a little nervous about posting my past work!:) My favorite brand model is Tamiya 1/35 scale "Military Miniatures".

jopped
03-31-2009, 12:12 PM
Their good, Tamiya, especialy the more new models. However, some older models do lack some detail. They are however great if you want to build a model quickly, and the more recent vehicles are of great detail and quality. I love the Tamiya models too, they are fun and nise to work with. Also, they have started a 1/48 series, you knew?: http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/mmv/index.htm#catalog

Sorry DavidW I kind of hyjacked your topic... :oops:

Cheers,
Joppe

DavidW
03-31-2009, 12:41 PM
This isn't a problem.:)
It's not too far off topic, and the original question has been answered.

jopped
03-31-2009, 03:38 PM
That's true... Glad it had been answered!

Cheers,
Joppe

jopped
04-03-2009, 06:33 PM
I'm home again, and I'm glad to share these pictures with you.

Cheers,
Joppe

navyson
04-04-2009, 05:46 AM
I'm home again, and I'm glad to share these pictures with you.

Hi Joppe,
Glad you're home, hospital is no place to be! Thanks for posting the model pictures, it turned out mighty nice! Is it hand painted or air brushed? Just curious, the ones I've tried to paint I've only hand painted. (what a job;))

jopped
04-04-2009, 10:22 AM
Well, I started with a sprayed base of Tamiya TS-3, and then a hand painted XF-59, with over that again a base of XF-60. The green cammo is Revell 65. So basicly, It's all hand painted.

Cheers,
Joppe

jopped
04-05-2009, 04:25 PM
Also, if you're interested, here you can find some other models by me. I hope you'll agree with me that I at least make progression.

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=4489&highlight=models

Cheers,
Joppe

navyson
04-05-2009, 05:47 PM
Also, if you're interested, here you can find some other models by me. I hope you'll agree with me that I at least make progression.

http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=4489&highlight=models

Cheers,
Joppe

Sorry, I didn't have any luck on viewing the attachments on the link you provided.

jopped
04-05-2009, 05:57 PM
ohw... that's to bad,.. might have to do with membership...
Sorry, nothing I can do about that I'm afraight. Sorry again.

Cheers,
Joppe

DavidW
04-06-2009, 01:45 AM
Sorry, I didn't have any luck on viewing the attachments on the link you provided.


Me neither, all text & no pictures.