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freyir_33
03-15-2009, 05:50 PM
Interesting info's with an article focusing on the Wermachts role in the Holocaust, and with some very informative links to DDR and BRD Archives on individual war tribunals, as well as the crime scenes, and the persons convicted. I guess thousands of WW2 cases are listed here, from all over Europe.

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/Inhvzbrdddr.htm

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/08/wehrmacht-complicity-in-holocaust-in.html

Another link I would like to introduce to all interested in Wehrmacht and SS is axishistory.com, and English speaking forum, but with an majority of German users, some of them vets. The most complete forum on Axis history on the internet I have seen.

http://forum.axishistory.com/

Rising Sun*
03-16-2009, 07:30 AM
Interesting info's with an article focusing on the Wermachts role in the Holocaust, and with some very informative links to DDR and BRD Archives on individual war tribunals, as well as the crime scenes, and the persons convicted. I guess thousands of WW2 cases are listed here, from all over Europe.

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/Inhvzbrdddr.htm

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/08/wehrmacht-complicity-in-holocaust-in.html

I think you are either trolling or pursuing some form of anti-German crusade which you have consisently pursued and consistently failed to support with evidence since you joined the board. You pervert and misrepresent the evidence you present in support of your case, which indicates that you have no case because you cannot present uncorrupted evidence to support it.

Your main case is that the Wehrmacht, by which you usually mean the Heer, was as bad as the SS in its involvement in the Holocaust. You refer to isolated events allegedly (see below) involving the 'Wehrmacht' which you then project upon the whole of the Heer and or Wehrmacht to show that the whole was as bad as some of its elements.

There is no major army involved in WWII on either side which could not be tarnished by such reasoning, which results in the Allied armies being as bad as the Heer which according to you was as bad as the SS, from which it follows that Allied armies were as bad as the SS and just as involved in the Holocaust as the SS. If that sounds like bullshit, it is. As are your founding assertions about the Heer and Wehrmacht.

Remarkably, you fail to observe your own standards as posted in your first post on this board after introducing yourself.


So to make it short, I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding towards the issue of pride in remembering the members of the German Wermacht or Waffen SS. I have posted a doku made at the controversial Wermacht exibition, in the dokumentary German vets are disscussing
the crimes of the regular German army.

Before you express any opinion, it is important to deeply understand the difference, between those fighting defending their country, and those fighting for an Ideology like Nazism. My bold. http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=152628#post152628


You clearly lack the knowledge and or analytical detachment to assess the frequently tendentious material you present in support of your case.

You present your links in the post above as ‘focusing on the Wermachts role in the Holocaust’.

Your second link supposedly demonstrates that


The Wehrmacht is thus an important source of material both for understanding the co-ordination of the Holocaust in Ukraine and for combating Holocaust denial, because many of the most explicit accounts of killing policy were written by Wehrmacht administrators.

So?

Even if Wehrmacht administrators did write about them (which isn't the case with some of the sources relied upon by your blogster - see below), where is the evidence that any Wehrmacht force committed them?

Your second link also says

In Zhytomyr, the problem of killing children was resolved differently. As Lower (p.244) notes:
Sk4a commando leader Heinrich Huhn...recounted that at the subsequent ghetto liquidation at Zhytomyr on 19 September: "The women were allowed to hold their children in their arms" (Heinrich Huhn statement of 13 October 1965, Callsen Trial, ZSt 207 AR-Z 419/62, BAL.).

Obviously you have no idea what Sk4a stands for, unless you are intentionally trying to misrepresent an SS Sonderkommando (Sk4a) unit, which was a sub-unit of the SS Einsatzgruppen, as a Wehrhmacht or Heer unit.

Again, in your blog link is this statement:


The third example, Lutsk, was a reprisal shooting described in Operational Situation Report USSR No. 24:
On July 2 the corpses of 10 German Wehrmacht soldiers were found. In retaliation, 1160 Jews were shot by the Ukrainians with the help of one platoon of the police and one platoon of the infantry.

I don’t see you getting wound up by the Ukrainians who are presented as primarily responsible for this retaliation for the German deaths, with the help of one platoon of the police (i.e. presumably SD, or Security, or Field police, being more effectively SS or SS / Party related than Heer) and one platoon of the infantry. Instead, you prefer to present the alleged involvement of one platoon of unidentified, but presumably Heer, infantry as being responsible for something in which the SD /SS and Ukrainian militia were the main actors. This demonstrates that you present facts to suit your prejudice rather than analysing them dispassionately to reach a balanced conclusion.

In the end, your blogster concludes only that


The Wehrmacht is a massive source of contemporary perpetrator information that leaves no doubt that a genocide was being committed in the USSR.

Nowhere does he claim, as is your line in other posts, that the Wehrmacht was as guilty as the SS etc for the Holocaust or other war crimes.

Which is just as well as, for example, the report upon which he relies for the aspects I have challenged is in fact shown in the link in his blog to be a report to the Chief of the SD about Einsatzgruppen activities in a book of reports about Einsatzgruppen activities, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Heer or Wehrrmacht.

As do most of your bigoted anti-German attacks which you seek to base upon your unsupported assertions that the Wehrmacht was as much an instrument of the Holocaust and the Nazi state as the SS etc. Which is complete bullshit, so if you can’t post anything but complete bullshit it would be good idea to post nothing at all.

herman2
03-16-2009, 07:32 AM
You tell em RS!...Don't take no Lip. You tell it as it is.Right on!

Rising Sun*
03-16-2009, 07:40 AM
You tell em RS!...Don't take no Lip. You tell it as it is.Right on!

Yo!

You ma man, Herman!

Ah knoo we'd connect bigtime, some day, you crazy Canuck! ;) :D

freyir_33
03-16-2009, 11:40 AM
I think the links I posted are valid and serious sources, who speak for them selves.

ptimms
03-17-2009, 09:33 AM
I think you are being a little harsh and to describe the involvement of the Wehrmacht in atrocities (not always the Holocaust) as isolated is twisting the facts, the German Army (not SS) was complicit in anti-partisan sweeeps (which were often merely used as a front to round up Jews), the deliberate mistreatment, leading to death of Soviet POW's, assissting the Einsatzgruppe (who often used Army troops in round ups), round ups for slave labour/deportation etc etc.

!"Frustrated by partisan guerrilla activity, the Wehrmacht's reprisal policy featured public hangings and executions of large numbers of defenseless civilians. Jews became easy targets because of their identification as purported supporters of Bolshevism. Troops shot those "walking about" during curfew, burned down entire villages suspected of harboring partisans, drove off livestock, destroyed food reserves, and sometimes forced the rounded-up Jews to clear minefields with rakes.
An Einsatzgruppe A report credited the Wehrmacht with shooting 19,000 partisans and "criminals," identified as "mostly Jews," by the end of 1941. !"

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/StaticPages/269.html

Rising Sun*
03-17-2009, 10:34 AM
I think you are being a little harsh and to describe the involvement of the Wehrmacht in atrocities (not always the Holocaust) as isolated is twisting the facts, the German Army (not SS) was complicit in anti-partisan sweeeps (which were often merely used as a front to round up Jews), the deliberate mistreatment, leading to death of Soviet POW's, assissting the Einsatzgruppe (who often used Army troops in round ups), round ups for slave labour/deportation etc etc.

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/StaticPages/269.html

I'm not disputing such events.

But freyir_33's approach is that events such as you have outlined were the universal conduct of the Heer and or Wehrmacht everywhere they went and that every member of the Wehrmacht is guilty of everything the Nazi state did, to support his assertion that the German people have nothing to be proud of in WWII.

That is just arrant nonsense of a spectacularly ill-informed kind to support a modern day bigotry against the German people.

In occupied France the Heer were noted for correct behaviour, and often better than the Allied troops who invaded later.

Where is the evidence for Heer and or Wehrmacht involvement in the Holocaust in North Africa? Or for assisting there atrocities of the Einsatzgruppen kind?

As for anti-partisan sweeps allegedly used as a front for rounding up Jews, some of the most vigorous partisan activities were in Yugoslavia where Jews were a minor part of the population and a minor part of those killed in racist sweeps and atrocities by local fascist forces with or without German assistance. Why not highlight those atrocities as evidence of the widespread inhumanity and brutality which was abroad in Europe during WWII, and which had nothing to do with the German people or the Nazis?

My problem with freyir_33 is that he, like most people nowadays who lack understanding of the breadth and depth of fascist sympathy and anti-Semitism in Europe before and during WWII, and since, chooses to ignore the enthusiastic complicity of many nations in assisting the Nazis in their conduct while he lays everything at the feet of the German people, as distinct from the Nazis, and every organ of the German and or Nazi state including every member of the German armed forces.

Without the active assistance of some of the nations Germany occupied, the Holocaust would have been vastly less damaging to the Jews. That is not the fault of the Nazis or the German people but of the widespread anti-Semitism which infected Europe before WWII and which was given brutal free rein during WWII.

By all means lay blame at the feet of the German and Nazi forces and the Nazi and German organs of state which participated in such events, but for Christ's sake let's stop this blinkered approach that it was only Nazi Germany which was involved in the Holocaust and in local atrocities. Many of the bastards who were up to their lousy necks in those appalling events were neither German nor Nazi, but they are ignored while the Germans are blamed by the likes of freyir_33 for something Nazi Germany could not have carried out without the active participation of other nations which shared or even exceeded Nazi hostility to the Jews and others.

Chevan
03-17-2009, 12:44 PM
I'm not disputing such events.

But freyir_33's approach is that events such as you have outlined were the universal conduct of the Heer and or Wehrmacht everywhere they went and that every member of the Wehrmacht is guilty of everything the Nazi state did, to support his assertion that the German people have nothing to be proud of in WWII.

Honestly , i dont' know by what they should be proud in ww2?
The war that so brillianltly was started, but THEN so badly losed?
Yes it was the GREAT Wermach success in 1939-42, but what was then?
The Nightmare and collapse, the terror and separation of GErmany.
Strongly , i don't know by what average germans might to be proud in ww2.




Without the active assistance of some of the nations Germany occupied, the Holocaust would have been vastly less damaging to the Jews. That is not the fault of the Nazis or the German people but of the widespread anti-Semitism which infected Europe before WWII and which was given brutal free rein during WWII.


Mate, you absolutly right.
In fact the Local antisemites killed even more jews then the SS( Lockal Holocaust-it should be the whole separate thread)
Sure not all of the such events did occure on the territory , controlled by Wermacht.
But Nazis germany was ONLY the state where the Anti-semitism was a LEGAL state policy.
In every city the Wermach come in 1941 the first what usially happend - the Anti-semitic pogroms.It was regular in Ukrain and BAltic states.
German military authorities not only did nothing to prevent the pogroms, but actively warmed up the anti-semitic feeling among the locals via their "Judo-bolshevics" propogand.
This is FACT.

ptimms
03-17-2009, 01:03 PM
I agree with you RS but feel this board is equally rife with the mindset the SS and the local auxillaries were somehow totally responsible for all atrocities whilst the "First NATO European Army of the Waffen SS" and the "whiter than white heroes" of the Wehrmacht gallantly held back the Bolshevik rapists and saved Europe. Whilst I agree that no army behaved perfectly, Germany's state policy was one of conquest, destruction and execution, to a lesser degree (but only slightly) so was the Soviet Union's.

No one soldier is totally representative of, or guilty for the crimes of his state but the level to which atrocities were carried out in the German Army exceeds that of the Soviets and far exceeds the Western Allies.

ptimms
03-17-2009, 01:09 PM
Also to be fair to Freyir the links he posted are not revisionist or controversial. The Justiz und NS-Verbrechen is just about war crime trials (and have a look at the number of trials of Waffen SS for executing German civilians and "deserters" at the end). A blog site that seems fairly balanced plus the absolutely excellent Axis History Forum. There are far more critical and less well informed sites that could have been posted to prove his point if he actually has an agenda.

redcoat
03-17-2009, 04:29 PM
Your main case is that the Wehrmacht, by which you usually mean the Heer, was as bad as the SS in its involvement in the Holocaust. You refer to isolated events allegedly (see below) involving the 'Wehrmacht' which you then project upon the whole of the Heer and or Wehrmacht to show that the whole was as bad as some of its elements. .
Seeing that it was the Heer that was responsible for the vast majority of the 3.5 million Soviet POW deaths through ill treatment and murder ( that's not including the help it gave in the killing of Jews) he does have a point.
http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyclopedia/soviet-prisoners-war

freyir_33
03-17-2009, 04:34 PM
That is just arrant nonsense of a spectacularly ill-informed kind to support a modern day bigotry against the German people.

I know very few educated German people who shares your views, but you might find some SS vets who do.



In occupied France the Heer were noted for correct behaviour, and often better than the Allied troops who invaded later.


I far as I know from my years in France, Hostage taking and retaliation was standard procedures in occupied France by the Wermacht, in Denmark the Wehrmacht dealt with executions of saboteurs, arresting of jews (even though 90% of the Danish Jews escapes with the help from the resistance, trough a tip from the German gesandt Renthe Fink).



Where is the evidence for Heer and or Wehrmacht involvement in the Holocaust in North Africa? Or for assisting there atrocities of the Einsatzgruppen kind?

Maybe the only place where the Wehrmacht did actually behave like other armies, allthough in December 42 some 5000 Tunisian Jews where internated
in Work camps.

Conditions in the camps were awful, particularly those run by the Germans. The Jewish notables set up committees to improve the lives of the internees by classifying workers as sick and helping them escape. This became progressively easier because discipline in the camps broke down as the Axis hold on Tunisia weakened.


As for anti-partisan sweeps allegedly used as a front for rounding up Jews, some of the most vigorous partisan activities were in Yugoslavia where Jews were a minor part of the population and a minor part of those killed in racist sweeps and atrocities by local fascist forces with or without German assistance. Why not highlight those atrocities as evidence of the widespread inhumanity and brutality which was abroad in Europe during WWII, and which had nothing to do with the German people or the Nazis?

So all the progroms would had happened anyway, without the backup of the German Army?


My problem with freyir_33 is that he, like most people nowadays who lack understanding of the breadth and depth of fascist sympathy and anti-Semitism in Europe before and during WWII, and since, chooses to ignore the enthusiastic complicity of many nations in assisting the Nazis in their conduct while he lays everything at the feet of the German people, as distinct from the Nazis, and every organ of the German and or Nazi state including every member of the German armed forces.

Without the active assistance of some of the nations Germany occupied, the Holocaust would have been vastly less damaging to the Jews. That is not the fault of the Nazis or the German people but of the widespread anti-Semitism which infected Europe before WWII and which was given brutal free rein during WWII.

Again presuming Germany had not invaded any countries, the Poles would have started a Holocaust by themselves?, I dont think anyone would.
Germany was the driving factor. Actually most people in the occupied areas who was backing up on the Progroms, Holocast etc was often people of German heritage, like in Rumania(Rumäniendeutsche), or ancesters of Germans in the Baltic staates.

Actually most states and it's people in the occupied zones, as well as some Axis states denied supporting the Germans in carrying out holocaust, the best example is Italy and Finland, or Denmark for that sake.

To accuse me for denying that other nationalities took part in the Holocaust or war crimes etc is nonsense, but the German state and its supporters was the major force behind it all.

I do not accuse single Wehrmacht German soldiers for being more cruel than anyone else, most of them had no choice in the given situation than just flowing with the stream, (if they did not have the intellectual property of Marleen Dietrich or Berthold Brecht who could easily find asylums outside of Germany).

My own family in WW2 was divided, My Uncle joining the SS(died in demjansk), with the rest of the family being ashamed of him, they where Conservative Royalists who would not accept anything what had to do with the Nazis, even with their pre war knowledge. For sure many Europeans in the occupied zones could have done more to prevents Holocast, but mostly they was just as afraid as the Single members of the Wermacht personnel, and chosed to keep low profiles, to avoid retaliation from the Germans.

It is true that that some of the most cruel retaliations in the occupied countries, was carried out by local milits groups often formed by former Waffen SS soldiers(The Shallburg corp*). In Demmark These groups was operating under the local Wehrmacht commander Dr Werner Best, who himself, enjoined a great life after the war(he was in the Wermacht, so he was no criminal).

So... Rising Sun,, just with my minor knowledge of what the German Wehrmacht did in Denmark (where nothing really happend compared to other countries), do I slowly start to think that you are trolling here and not me, especially after your rigorous defense of a very suspect client.

*http://www.gyldendal.dk/wcsstore/GYLDENDAL/upload/products/fs/9788702064933_fs.jpg

Latest Book about von Shallburg, "a patriotic betrayer of his Country"

Rising Sun*
03-18-2009, 07:06 AM
Maybe the only place where the Wehrmacht did actually behave like other armies, allthough in December 42 some 5000 Tunisian Jews where internated
in Work camps.


Conditions in the camps were awful, particularly those run by the Germans. The Jewish notables set up committees to improve the lives of the internees by classifying workers as sick and helping them escape. This became progressively easier because discipline in the camps broke down as the Axis hold on Tunisia weakened.

This quote illustrates beautifully the difficulty I have with your highly selective presentations of 'evidence' in support of your case against the Wehrmacht, which I note has been significantly diluted in the later parts of your last post under pressure of my opposition.

Here, for the information of other members who deserve to see how duplicitous you are in misrepresenting the 'evidence' you use in your anti-German crusade, is the full paragraph from which your quote above is taken.


Approximately 5,000 Tunisian Jewish men were conscripted for almost forty detention camps and forced labor areas near the front lines. These camps were run by both the Germans and the Italians; the most important one was the military port at Bizerte, under German control. Conditions in the camps were awful, particularly those run by the Germans. The Jewish notables set up committees to improve the lives of the internees by classifying workers as sick and helping them escape. This became progressively easier because discipline in the camps broke down as the Axis hold on Tunisia weakened.

Why did you omit the involvement of the Italians mentioned in the sentence immediately preceding your selective quote which presents the Germans as the only offenders?

Why didn’t you criticise Italian complicity in the same exercise? Because, as is apparent from your various posts, you are focused on the Germans and see only the bad in them while largely ignoring or excusing the bad in other nationalities' conduct in the Holocaust and atrocities during WWII.

Why did you conveniently ignore the involvement of the Vichy French in similar actions against the Tunisian Jews in your highly selective and misleading quote lifted from the following article from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, not to mention pre-war persecution of the Tunisian Jews by other elements , as described in the article from which you lifted your highly selective quote?

Here, for the information of other members, is the article from which you took a selective quote to misrepresent the Wehrmacht's (or Heer's) actions as the only people ever involved in oppressing the Tunisian Jews.



JEWS IN NORTH AFRICA: OPPRESSION AND RESISTANCE

The Jews of North Africa were relatively fortunate because their distance from German concentration camps in central and eastern Europe permitted them to avoid the fate of their coreligionists in Europe. They were also fortunate not to have had to live under German rule. The Germans never occupied Morocco or Algeria. Though they briefly occupied Tunisia from November 1942, after the Allied landings in Morocco and Algeria, until May 1943, the Germans never had the time or the resources to subject Tunisian Jews systematically to the measures implemented in areas under direct German rule in Europe.

Nonetheless, attacks on Jews and Jewish property by local European antisemites and native Muslims, which had taken place before the war in all three countries (Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia), continued unhindered by the Vichy authorities.

Even before World War II, the French government had set up internment camps in the French Pyrénées region to hold Spanish Republicans who had fought against Franco's fascist rebels in the Spanish Civil War, persons suspected or convicted of political crimes, and Jewish refugees who had sought refuge from Nazi Germany in France.

After the armistice with Germany was signed, Vichy authorities sent foreigners (including Jews) who had volunteered for and fought in the French army against the Germans in 1940 and foreign Jewish refugees to work camps in Algeria and Morocco. Upon their arrival, the Jewish refugees received aid from local Jewish committees, as well as from the Joint Distribution Committee and the HICEM, an international Jewish migration organization. These organizations also tried to obtain visas and organize travel to the United States for the refugees.

The Vichy administration sent other Jewish refugees to camps in southern Morocco and Algeria to work as forced laborers on the pan-Saharan railroad line. There were approximately thirty camps, including Hadjerat M'Guil and Bou-Arfa in Morocco and Berrouaghia, Djelfa, and Bedeau in Algeria. Conditions were extremely harsh for the over 4,000 Jewish labor conscripts working on the railroad.

The Allies had been planning to establish a second front in North Africa since September 1942. Operation Torch called for British and U.S. forces under the command of General Dwight D. Eisenhower to land on the beaches of Algeria and Morocco and capture Casablanca, Oran, and Algiers. Because he wanted the Vichy administration in North Africa to switch sides and fight with the Allies against the Germans and Italians, U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt opposed coordination with Free French forces under General Charles de Gaulle. On November 8, the Allies landed successfully in Algeria and Morocco, and, after initially facing stiff resistance from Vichy forces, entered Casablanca on November 11.

In Algeria, underground resistance forces staged a coup d'état in Algiers and were able to neutralize the French XIX Army Corps. The Algiers coup was led by Jews Bernard Karsenty and Dr. José Aboulker as well as the “Committee of Five,” prominent Vichy supporters who were hostile to the Germans. Of the 377 participants in the coup, 315 were Jews. Although U.S. officials had promised arms to the resistance leaders, these were never delivered. U.S. officials, acting on Roosevelt's orders, negotiated a deal with Admiral Jean Francois Darlan, Vichy High Commissioner for North Africa, for the cessation of Vichy resistance to the Allied landings on November 10-11, 1942. Sacrificed in the deal were the leaders of the Gaullist resistance in North Africa, who did not gain power.

Immediately after the Allied landings in Algeria and Morocco, the Germans occupied Tunisia. On November 23, 1942, the Germans arrested Moises Burgel, the president of the Tunis Jewish community, and several other prominent Jews. Resistance to the German persecution of Tunisian Jews came from the sympathetic Vichy resident-general Admiral Estéva, the mayor of Tunis, Sheikh al-Madina 'Aziz Jallouli, and the Italians, who requested that any measures against Tunisian Jews exclude those Jews who were Italian citizens.

In early December, the Germans demanded that Burgel and Chief Rabbi Haïm Bellaïche dissolve Jewish community institutions and ordered the Chief Rabbi to provide Jewish workers for the Axis forces. By this time, the Germans had notified Vichy and Tunisian authorities that they could no longer interfere with German dealings with the Jews. Two days later, the Jewish leaders supplied a list of 2,500 Jews; only 128 Jews showed up for work. The Germans conducted a sweep of the Jewish neighborhood of Tunis and sent those Jews they captured to a camp at Cheylus, near the city. At the same time, the SS arrested one hundred Jewish notables in the Tunis community headquarters in order to compel them to provide Jewish workers for forced labor.

Approximately 5,000 Tunisian Jewish men were conscripted for almost forty detention camps and forced labor areas near the front lines. These camps were run by both the Germans and the Italians; the most important one was the military port at Bizerte, under German control. Conditions in the camps were awful, particularly those run by the Germans. The Jewish notables set up committees to improve the lives of the internees by classifying workers as sick and helping them escape. This became progressively easier because discipline in the camps broke down as the Axis hold on Tunisia weakened.

Despite being worn down by the Allied land and air strikes in spring 1943, German authorities continued to persecute the Tunisian Jews. For example, the Germans imposed fines on Tunisian Jewish communities, ostensibly to compensate civilian victims of Allied bombings. In March 1943, rightwing antisemitic French colonists robbed Jewish homes and stores and denounced twenty members of the anti-Vichy resistance, some of them Jews, to the German authorities. The Germans transferred those arrested to concentration camps in Europe.

Sarah Sussman
Stanford University http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007312

Rising Sun*
03-18-2009, 08:08 AM
So all the progroms would had happened anyway, without the backup of the German Army?

Who can say?

Pogrom is a Russian word which came into English following various anti-Jewish pogroms (being riots against and massacres of Jews) during the 19th century, including in places which by WWII were Poland and the Ukraine. Hitler tapped a deep vein of anti-Semitism in Europe, but he didn’t create it.

Persecuting the poor bloody Jews had been a major sport in Europe for centuries. Indeed, the ancestors of some of the Tunisian Jews you are so concerned about ended up there only because Spain expelled the Jews it had not burnt at the stake at the end of the 15th century after running the Spanish Inquisition to challenge Jewish influence in Spain.


Actually most people in the occupied areas who was backing up on the Progroms, Holocast etc was often people of German heritage, like in Rumania(Rumäniendeutsche), or ancesters of Germans in the Baltic staates.

Really? :confused: :rolleyes:

Confronted with people in nations other than Germany who participated in the Holocaust, you then raise the absurd notion that it was due to their German ancestry.

And there I was, thinking that such conduct was related to Nazism rather than German ancestry. Which is the difference between your position and mine, because you can’t allow the German people any good among them. And your claim that it was often people of German ancestry who participated in bad actions outside Germany just demonstrates how virulent and bizarre your anti-German opinions are.


Actually most states and it's people in the occupied zones, as well as some Axis states denied supporting the Germans in carrying out holocaust, the best example is Italy …….

Apart from assisting the Germans as mentioned in your earlier quote in rounding up and imprisoning the Tunisian Jews (who became Italian Tunisian Jews when the Italians added Tunisia to Italy's colonial possessions in 1942). Or did your eyes film over with anti-German racism and blind you to that inconvenient sentence preceding your quote to prove that the Germans in North Africa were alone responsible for persecuting the Tunisian Jews.


It is true that that some of the most cruel retaliations in the occupied countries, was carried out by local milits groups often formed by former Waffen SS soldiers(The Shallburg corp*). In Demmark These groups was operating under the local Wehrmacht commander Dr Werner Best, who himself, enjoined a great life after the war(he was in the Wermacht, so he was no criminal).

Could you expand on this for each occupied territory, including details of the former Waffen SS soldiers who formed these militias and the magnificent powers of persuasion they used to convert local innocents into brutal murderers? I’d be particularly interested to have details of the Waffen SS retirees who were responsible for the Croat actions in Yugoslavia. I’d be even more interested to know how and why those agents of the Nazi state, which was hostile to Catholicism, persuaded the Croats to impose forced conversions to Catholicism on Serbs, when they weren’t just butchering Serbs or wiping them out in Croat (not German) concentration camps.


So... Rising Sun,, just with my minor knowledge of what the German Wehrmacht did in Denmark (where nothing really happend compared to other countries), do I slowly start to think that you are trolling here and not me, especially after your rigorous defense of a very suspect client.

And I’ll happily keep defending Germans as a people from your highly selective persecution, as distinct from prosecution, of them on the basis of national collective guilt for everything that happened in Europe from the start of the war which deprives every German alive during WWII of any credit for any good they did.

You will not allow that there was any good in any Germans during WWII, nor will you allow that there was any good in the German armed forces. Your position is as bad; irrational; bigoted; and prejudiced as the Nazi position that all Jews and all Russians were bad and deserving of condemnation, which laid the foundation for the crimes committed against them.

I don’t like bigotry or prejudice of any kind, the Nazi kind or your anti-German kind. If that makes me a troll, then I am bloody proud to be one.

Ivaylo
03-18-2009, 09:41 AM
Well here we go again and again , first of all from my little knowledge ( i admit some guys here have more ) Wehrmacht forces often were filled with guys from SS by order from Gestapo just to see what is going on there and to have control over them although the army was officially independant from SS and Gestapo . Second I don't see why germans always till the end of world have to walk with their heads down because they fought a war which was in 20 century and guys please now it's 21 wake up . You may feel envy hate them but they are again on the top in the leading nations with good economy so that it is get used to it . As for the SS it was allies responsibility to make charges against anyone who did crimes . My question why so many wasn't charged and killed or made prisoners ?? The allies had full control over the process instead the Nuremberg trials was one fiasco . So if you were in court and wasn't made prisoner afterwards why you have always to feel like criminal ? i don't think that's fair . And what you will do if you were in SS and a general give a order to kill ? You wouldn't do it ? you will go directly to punishment battalion like many guys from Wehrmact did and that in the best case , so most of the low ranked soldiers didn't have a chance even they had to do what is ordered that is what it mean to be in army , you do whatever your superior order no questions , any disagreement is met with punish . Even if you now go in the army it is the same you will do what your commander order otherwise you will take the punishment .
When speaking of germans and their crimes don't ever forget that the commies wasn't better , they made NKVD the GULAG and other things which they used far more than the Nazis and killed much more people . So i will say germans walk up proud and forget about this shit things and the stupid shame that some countries try to put on you for all life the year is 2009 not 1945 and there is no need for more shame , 50 years were enough slavery . If i was german i would be proud to be one .
BTW the Holocaust made by the Red Army in the 30s did we forget about it and the famine then ? Because the Ukranians didn't .

freyir_33
03-18-2009, 02:06 PM
And I’ll happily keep defending Germans as a people from your highly selective persecution, as distinct from prosecution, of them on the basis of national collective guilt for everything that happened in Europe from the start of the war which deprives every German alive during WWII of any credit for any good they did.

You are not defending any real Germans by comparing them with, or by measuring Ustasha crimes to those of the Wermacht, in contrary. As I told you, most Germans I know agree 100% with me and my opinions on the their role in ww2.

And with all respect, I think those people are balanced and successful Germans (also some Bundewehr officers), many whom I met due to working 10 years in the German arms industry.

Off course I can't speak for all of them, but I guess they would rather be without your kind of support. Most Germans of today seek identification with the new Germany, and not the past, and that's what I love about them.

But truly, both bigotry or uncritical defense of the German past, will make it harder some Germans to reach that new identity. But I am not having any prejudice against Germany, I am just describing the fact about some of the Wehrmacht crimes.

And again, this is not anti German behavior because most Germans of today do not identify themselves with the Third Reich, the Wehrmacht or Heer anymore, but with the Bundewehr or BDR(if any of those at all).

So beware, of those people in English speaking forums who claims ownership
of Germanity, because there are a reason why they are posting here, and not in a German forum.


You will not allow that there was any good in any Germans during WWII, nor will you allow that there was any good in the German armed forces.

Read my last post again please(about the Danish Jews)

QUOTE=Rising Sun*;153693]Your position is as bad; irrational; bigoted; and prejudiced as the Nazi position that all Jews and all Russians were bad and deserving of condemnation, which laid the foundation for the crimes committed against them.

I don’t like bigotry or prejudice of any kind, the Nazi kind or your anti-German kind. If that makes me a troll, then I am bloody proud to be one.[/QUOTE]

OK, then we are both proud to be Trolls, and maybe not so different at all ;)

flamethrowerguy
03-18-2009, 02:41 PM
So beware, of those people in English speaking forums who claims ownership
of Germanity, because there are a reason why they are posting here, and not in a German forum.

Now you made me curious (and the other German members of the forum as well I guess), what reason would that be? I'm all ears!

Schuultz
03-18-2009, 06:09 PM
Now you made me curious (and the other German members of the forum as well I guess), what reason would that be? I'm all ears!

Me too!


As I told you, most Germans I know agree 100% with me and my opinions on the their role in ww2.

To give everybody who didn't have a conversation with a non-history interested German a perspective of how something like that would work out (Semi-fictious*):


Somehow, the subject came to WW2. The German looks awkwardly at the Ground

Foreigner: So... World War 2.

Awkward Silence

German (mumbles): ****ing Nazis, they were all bastards...

Foreigner (feels sorry): Well, you kicked France's ***....

German (mumbles): And then the Nazis ****ed up our country...

Foreigner (very uncomfortable): Ok... Um... Soccer World Cup next year, right?

German (happy at subject change): Oh yeah, we're totally gonna win that one!

Englishmen jump out of the closet, singing

Brit: Two World Wars and
One World Cup!!...**

Congratulations. You just witnessed your first typical WW2 Discussion with an average German age 30 - 60! Your Experience might vary.

I know this seems like a pathetic attempt at humour, but it actually happened. Including the Drunken Brit...



*Names changed
**Happens only occasionally ;)

Chevan
03-19-2009, 12:44 AM
Who can say?

Pogrom is a Russian word which came into English following various anti-Jewish pogroms (being riots against and massacres of Jews) during the 19th century, including in places which by WWII were Poland and the Ukraine. Hitler tapped a deep vein of anti-Semitism in Europe, but he didn’t create it.

Mate, only for one first month of occupation of Kiev in 1941 there were killed more the jews that for all 19 centure.
This is also well known fact.


Persecuting the poor bloody Jews had been a major sport in Europe for centuries. Indeed, the ancestors of some of the Tunisian Jews you are so concerned about ended up there only because Spain expelled the Jews it had not burnt at the stake at the end of the 15th century after running the Spanish Inquisition to challenge Jewish influence in Spain.

Persecution/expultion of poor (or rich) jews in middle-age Europe and in Russian empire was NOTIGH compared to TOTAL executions of jews on some areas of Ukraine and Belorussia( or planns of their total execution out of Europe) in occuped territory by Germany.
This is official point of JEwsih Holocaust centre.Yad-Vashem.
That's why they have called that period 1933-1945 as Shoa( Holocaust)


Your position is as bad; irrational; bigoted; and prejudiced as the Nazi position that all Jews and all Russians were bad and deserving of condemnation, which laid the foundation for the crimes committed against them.
.
i think this is EXACTLY position of Ivaylo( see his last post).
You have nothing told him ?

Chevan
03-19-2009, 12:58 AM
When speaking of germans and their crimes don't ever forget that the commies wasn't better , they made NKVD the GULAG and other things which they used far more than the Nazis and killed much more people ..
BTW the Holocaust made by the Red Army in the 30s did we forget about it and the famine then ? Because the Ukranians didn't .
This is what Goebbels exactly inspired to German Wermach to justify their own behaviour in poor Ukraine late , in 1941:)The total execution of Jews as the "Bolshevics-sympatizers' and terror agains civils was a legitime resaul of such propogand.

If i was german i would be proud to be one
If i was germans , i would to despise the all sort of such a "comeraden" llike Bulgarians ones who , when it was profitable for them attacked Yugoslavia alongside Germany, but when Germans retreated , betrayed them and turned out against GErman army in 1944:D

freyir_33
03-19-2009, 01:51 AM
Now you made me curious (and the other German members of the forum as well I guess), what reason would that be? I'm all ears!

Notice, I did not mean all members of this forum, and not all forums. But i have read quite a few post's(not to mention some avatars) posted here that would not be acceptable by the members of a German forum.

http://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/

Ivaylo
03-19-2009, 02:56 AM
This is what Goebbels exactly inspired to German Wermach to justify their own behaviour in poor Ukraine late , in 1941:)The total execution of Jews as the "Bolshevics-sympatizers' and terror agains civils was a legitime resaul of such propogand.

If i was germans , i would to despise the all sort of such a "comeraden" llike Bulgarians ones who , when it was profitable for them attacked Yugoslavia alongside Germany, but when Germans retreated , betrayed them and turned out against GErman army in 1944:D

Mate i told you to not make me laught didn't i ? :D First Bulgaria didn't i repeat didn't invade Yugoslavia by that time do you know why ? because it was already occupied by soviet union :D and we fought because the Moscow ordered us to do so against the germans on the balkan front if i am not wrong we were part of the Ukrainian front or something excuse me if i am wrong can't recall i it right now . For this the USSR refused to accept that we made contribution to the end of the Nazi Germany for which i am very gratefull thanks we fought for nothing . And you have to know well that if the Soviets weren't already at the gates occupying our homeland supported by some thugs who called themselfs commies we never ever would like to be part of the so called " great " USSR , that was what the majority of the intelligent people thought by that time . For this disagreement they were send to the labour camps and beaten to the death , thank you very much great USSR , and their families expulsed and forbidden to take any work , so that is the great USSR and don't tell me it was some local thing cause you lived great in USSR , because some germans can say the same for the Nazi Germany . ;)

Rising Sun*
03-19-2009, 03:27 AM
Notice, I did not mean all members of this forum, and not all forums. But i have read quite a few post's(not to mention some avatars) posted here that would not be acceptable by the members of a German forum.

Now I'm all ears.

Which German and now apparently other members of this forum do you mean?

As for avatars allowed on non-German forums not being allowed on German forums: So what? There are lots of Nazi symbols, including everything to do with the SS, and conduct such as Holocaust denial which are illegal in Germany but not in the rest of the world.

Rising Sun*
03-19-2009, 03:55 AM
You are not defending any real Germans by comparing them with, or by measuring Ustasha crimes to those of the Wermacht, in contrary. As I told you, most Germans I know agree 100% with me and my opinions on the their role in ww2.

And with all respect, I think those people are balanced and successful Germans (also some Bundewehr officers), many whom I met due to working 10 years in the German arms industry.

Off course I can't speak for all of them, but I guess they would rather be without your kind of support. Most Germans of today seek identification with the new Germany, and not the past, and that's what I love about them.

I wouldn't presume to speak for modern Germans.

This discussion is not about them but about your accusations against the Wehrmacht in WWII.

Your original position was that members of the Wehrmacht were all part of the war crimes and Holocaust apparatus and therefore they were all guilty, and by implication that the whole of the German people were guilty, but you have backed away from that a little under pressure of my challenges.

Most of those people are dead now and can't speak for themselves, so they're an easy target to attack. But, despite your unwillingness to recognise it, the historical record contains numerous instances which contradict your assertions about the collective guilt of the Wehrmacht and the German people for the Holocaust and every other atrocity perpetrated by the Nazi regime.

Barely a third of the German electorate voted for the Nazis in the election which brought them to power, and which allowed them to remain in power by abuses of the German political system. So, two thirds of the German people didn't support Hitler at the outset, although no doubt in the interests of self-preservation many decided to appear to support him as time went on. No doubt some also jumped on the Hitler bandwagon when Germany was in the ascendant in WWII. And no doubt many retained their lack of support for or opposition to the Nazis.

Do you think that the Nazis worked out some system of mind reading that ensured that nobody in the last group was conscripted into the German armed forces? If not, then it follows that not everybody in the Wehrmacht, whether Heer or other armed services, was a Nazi supporter. It is irrational, unjust, and wrong to lump them in with those members of the German armed forces who were Nazi supporters and who willingly participated in Nazi expansionism, war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Egorka
03-19-2009, 04:52 AM
Mate i told you to not make me laught didn't i ? :D First Bulgaria didn't i repeat didn't invade Yugoslavia by that time do you know why ? because it was already occupied by soviet union :D Chevan is talking about this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Yugoslavia

Rising Sun*
03-19-2009, 05:44 AM
Mate, only for one first month of occupation of Kiev in 1941 there were killed more the jews that for all 19 centure.
This is also well known fact.

Persecution/expultion of poor (or rich) jews in middle-age Europe and in Russian empire was NOTIGH compared to TOTAL executions of jews on some areas of Ukraine and Belorussia( or planns of their total execution out of Europe) in occuped territory by Germany.
This is official point of JEwsih Holocaust centre.Yad-Vashem.
That's why they have called that period 1933-1945 as Shoa( Holocaust)

Mate, I'm not disputing any of that.

I was just responding to freyir_33's use of the word 'pogrom' to illustrate my point that the Nazis didnt' invent anti-Semitism, and that it had a long history in Europe. Which certainly wasn't limited to Russia but applied to varying degrees in all European countries.

The Nazis may have opened the floodgates on anti-Semitism but, contrary to what I perceive as freyir_33's position, they didn't dam up the water behind the floodgates. That was a process which took centuries of anti-Semitism in all of Europe.

Freyir_33 attributes the practical basis of the Holocaust to the Wehrmacht. For the reasons I've given previously, I disagree, not least because there was as much or more complicity in it in some occupied countries than anything the Wehrmacht did, apart from occupying the country and giving the locals the opportunity to vent their spleen on the local Jews.

Chevan
03-19-2009, 07:53 AM
Mate i told you to not make me laught didn't i ? :D

You promised to me not spread a Nazis bul...t any more?
And what do we have now?
the Nazis blunder about COmmunist/Jewish bolshevism crimes( that in fact was the same in Goebbels tems).
If you are going to tell about Holodomore, ostensibly organized by "Red Army" in Ukraine , just open the thread.


First Bulgaria didn't i repeat didn't invade Yugoslavia by that time do you know why ? because it was already occupied by soviet union :D and we fought because the Moscow ordered us to do so against the germans on the balkan front if i am not wrong we were part of the Ukrainian front or something excuse me if i am wrong can't recall i it right now .

You invaided Yugoslavia even BEFORE the Moscow even was adble to order you anything.
Just read a bit more than the doctor Goebbels diaries:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II#A xis_Powers_.281941.E2.80.931944.29


On 20 April, the period of Bulgarian passivity ended when the Bulgarian Army entered the Aegean region. The goal was to gain an Aegean Sea outlet in Thrace and Eastern Macedonia. The Bulgarians occupied territory between the Struma River and a line of demarcation running through Alexandroupoli and Svilengrad west of Maritsa. Included in the area occupied were the cities of Alexandroupoli (Дедеагач, Dedeagach), Komotini (Гюмюрджина, Gyumyurdzhina), Serres (Сяр, Syar), Xanthi (Ксанти), Drama (Драма) and Kavala (Кавала) and the islands of Thasos and Samothrace, as well as almost all of what is today the Republic of Macedonia and much of eastern Serbia. During the spring of 1943, the Bulgarian government, after protests led by the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and Dimitar Peshev M.P., succeeded in saving Bulgarian Jews from being sent to Nazi concentration camps. However, the Bulgarian troops rounded up all Jews in Greek Macedonia and Vardar Macedonia and sent them to Auschwitz.
despite the lack of official declarations of war by both sides, the Bulgarian Navy was involved in a number of skirmishes with the Soviet Black Sea Fleet, which attacked Bulgarian shipping. Besides this, Bulgarian armed forces garrisoned in the Balkans battled various resistance groups. The Bulgarian government was forced by the Germans to declare a token war on the United Kingdom and the United States near the end of 1941, an act which resulted in the bombing of Sofia and other Bulgarian cities by Allied aircraft

So Bulgaria pretty well invided the Serbia , Makedonia and Grees.


For this the USSR refused to accept that we made contribution to the end of the Nazi Germany for which i am very gratefull thanks we fought for nothing .

No, you wrong ,USSR didn't not forget the Bulgarian prticipation in Allied side.
Coz the Southern Dobruja hass been passed to Bulgaria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Dobruja
But you right, USSR still refused to accept your participation in cruel occupation of Serbia and contrubution to Holocaus in Makedonia.
What a stoopid Soviet mistake!!


And you have to know well that if the Soviets weren't already at the gates occupying our homeland supported by some thugs who called themselfs commies we never ever would like to be part of the so called " great " USSR , that was what the majority of the intelligent people thought by that time .

Now you are making me to laugh:)Bulgarian part of USSR?:)
Never heard of this nonsense.
Bulgaria was a trator in Russian minds, how do not to understand that simple fact?
Bulgarian betrayal was ESPECIALY sensetive to Russian , becouse there were a Russian Army who liberated the Bulgaria from cruel Ottoman Empire occupation.
Say it to your foolish "intelligent people"


For this disagreement they were send to the labour camps and beaten to the death , thank you very much great USSR , and their families expulsed and forbidden to take any work , so that is the great USSR and don't tell me it was some local thing cause you lived great in USSR , because some germans can say the same for the Nazi Germany . ;)
Good.
Traitors have deserved what they've got.
They so loved alliance with Great GErmany- so they have to love the alliance with USSR:)

Schuultz
03-19-2009, 08:24 AM
Good.
Traitors have deserved what they've got.
They so loved alliance with Great GErmany- so they have to love the alliance with USSR:)

Not trying to jump into your argument here, Chevan, but I thought you could only be a traitor if betrayed your own country?

Also, did Bulgaria have any kind of treaty pre-WW2 that bound them to the Soviet Union and banned them from entering war against them?

Chevan
03-19-2009, 08:24 AM
Mate, I'm not disputing any of that.
Freyir_33 attributes the practical basis of the Holocaust to the Wehrmacht. For the reasons I've given previously, I disagree, not least because there was as much or more complicity in it in some occupied countries than anything the Wehrmacht did, apart from occupying the country and giving the locals the opportunity to vent their spleen on the local Jews.
But we migh to ask ...the jews themself mate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht
There is just humble list of crimes, commited by Wehrmach , including the MASS killing of Jew and Civils, raping of woman!!!!, execution of POWs and many other nasty things.

However a number of high Wehrmacht officers stood trial for war crimes. OKW commander-in-chief Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel and chief of operations staff Alfred Jodl were indicted and tried for war crimes by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1946. Both were convicted of all charges, sentenced to death and executed by hanging. While the tribunal declared that the Gestapo, SD and SS (including the Waffen-SS) were inherently criminal organizations, the court did not reach the same conclusion with respect to the Wehrmacht General Staff and High Command. This was seen by many in the German public as exonerating the Wehrmacht's role in war crimes.

So question is indeed NOT that simple.

Chevan
03-19-2009, 08:30 AM
Not trying to jump into your argument here, Chevan, but I thought you could only be a traitor if betrayed your own country?

IT's just matter of semantic , my friend Schuultz.


Also, did Bulgaria have any kind of treaty pre-WW2 that bound them to the Soviet Union and banned them from entering war against them?
No, and did the USSR have the any king of treaty not to invide Bulgaria in 1944 banned them to install here the pro-soviet govenment?
No?

Nickdfresh
03-19-2009, 08:56 AM
Um...


But truly, both bigotry or uncritical defense of the German past, will make it harder some Germans to reach that new identity. But I am not having any prejudice against Germany, I am just describing the fact about some of the Wehrmacht crimes.


Um, you're out of your mind. No one here has ever been "bigoted" or "uncritical" and we've, as in Rising Sun* and the rest of the great, omnipotent Mod staff here have crushed Neo-Nazi trolls and other idiot apologists as well as Holocaust deniers or racists and have questioned the idiot policies of even their/our own gov'ts.

There's a difference between acknowledging and dwelling on it. And you sir seem to like to dwell with a heightened sense of self-importance and inflated moral vanity. talking about how bad Germans acted during WWII doesn't make you a great person...

I'd also like to ask you your opinion on the Israeli vs. Palestinian conflict...

Are the tables turned? Is it okay for the Israel Defense Forces to blast away at a few guerrillas in civilian areas killing hundreds?

Rising Sun*
03-19-2009, 10:19 AM
There's a difference between acknowledging and dwelling on it. And you sir seem to like to dwell with a heightened sense of self-importance and inflated moral vanity. talking about how bad Germans acted during WWII doesn't make you a great person...

Exactly!

The war and Holocaust have been over for nearly 65 years, and many generations.

It's time to let it go for nations which have acknowledged and tried to deal with their war past, as Germany has.

freyir_33
03-19-2009, 03:25 PM
Um...



Um, you're out of your mind. No one here has ever been "bigoted" or "uncritical" and we've, as in Rising Sun* and the rest of the great, omnipotent Mod staff here have crushed Neo-Nazi trolls and other idiot apologists as well as Holocaust deniers or racists and have questioned the idiot policies of even their/our own gov'ts.

There's a difference between acknowledging and dwelling on it. And you sir seem to like to dwell with a heightened sense of self-importance and inflated moral vanity. talking about how bad Germans acted during WWII doesn't make you a great person...

That was never my intention either, exploring and discussing
history was.


and I'd also like to ask you your opinion on the Israeli vs. Palestinian conflict...

Are the tables turned? Is it okay for the Israel Defense Forces to blast away at a few guerrillas in civilian areas killing hundreds?

It has been a counterproductive behavior of Israel to Bomb Gaza, but any nation has the leaders they deserve, and the Palestinians did Choose Hamas themselves.

freyir_33
03-19-2009, 03:38 PM
Exactly!

The war and Holocaust have been over for nearly 65 years, and many generations.

It's time to let it go for nations which have acknowledged and tried to deal with their war past, as Germany has.

Historical research on the theme Holocaust will not be over as long as not all files all available, and as long as murderers like the Danish SS man Soeren kam (http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/12622,opinion,soren-kam-should-suffer-like-his-victims)it still being protected by the German constitution. So Germany still has responsibilities, and they are fulfilling them as god as they can, but they are not above their own constitution.

I understand that "dwelling" on Historical subjects like the war crimes of the Wermacht is not wanted in this forum, even if "dwelling" on subjects
like Anti Communism and anti Slavism or Asianism seems to be accepted here.

Cheers

www.flammenogcitronen.dk

Ivaylo
03-19-2009, 05:20 PM
You promised to me not spread a Nazis bul...t any more?
And what do we have now?
the Nazis blunder about COmmunist/Jewish bolshevism crimes( that in fact was the same in Goebbels tems).
If you are going to tell about Holodomore, ostensibly organized by "Red Army" in Ukraine , just open the thread.

You invaided Yugoslavia even BEFORE the Moscow even was adble to order you anything.
Just read a bit more than the doctor Goebbels diaries:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II#A xis_Powers_.281941.E2.80.931944.29

So Bulgaria pretty well invided the Serbia , Makedonia and Grees.

No, you wrong ,USSR didn't not forget the Bulgarian prticipation in Allied side.
Coz the Southern Dobruja hass been passed to Bulgaria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Dobruja
But you right, USSR still refused to accept your participation in cruel occupation of Serbia and contrubution to Holocaus in Makedonia.
What a stoopid Soviet mistake!!

Now you are making me to laugh:)Bulgarian part of USSR?:)
Never heard of this nonsense.
Bulgaria was a trator in Russian minds, how do not to understand that simple fact?
Bulgarian betrayal was ESPECIALY sensetive to Russian , becouse there were a Russian Army who liberated the Bulgaria from cruel Ottoman Empire occupation.
Say it to your foolish "intelligent people"

Good.
Traitors have deserved what they've got.
They so loved alliance with Great GErmany- so they have to love the alliance with USSR:)

Mate you are completely out of your mind :D You are on the side of USSR and you trust Goebbels :D That's really great :mrgreen: Second my dear friend why would we invade Yugoslavia ? did we take anything from it ? NO , simply there were GERMAN soldiers in it so don't make the history pages different please . Second don't call part of my nation foolish "intelligent nation " , third i don't give a damn what USSR , Russia think about so called imaginery bulgarian traitor , why we were traitors , because we didn't obey to "mother russia " ? because we wanted our people back into our homeland ?
Third for Southern Dobrjudja don't dare to take that to your cause , it was given to us by treaty and with help from Hitler not from Josef Stalin your beloved murderer . Fourth there wasn't any other Holocoust other than against the bulgarian minority backed by the serbians which you so much love , as for the NAzi blunder about the Soviet Union crimes ask Gourbachev or your "allies " from the west they will tell you what you did for 45 years . And what you call Nazi b.... t is actually the truth and don't dare to educate me about the bulgarian history it's no longer in your power to do so .
One more thing to honor the germans , hungarians , bulgarians , rumanians , italians i don't think make me a Nazi so don't associeate me with this . Have a great day and don't write more about bulgarian history please otherwise i will always say the truth which i know better as i am bulgarian .

Chevan
03-20-2009, 12:40 AM
I'd also like to ask you your opinion on the Israeli vs. Palestinian conflict...

Are the tables turned? Is it okay for the Israel Defense Forces to blast away at a few guerrillas in civilian areas killing hundreds?
Damn , Nick , why are you talking about Israel?
What to hell it has common with THIS thread or ww2 at all?
Are you going to learn , is the mr freyir Zionist or not?:)

Chevan
03-20-2009, 02:02 AM
Mate you are completely out of your mind :D You are on the side of USSR and you trust Goebbels :D

Me , trust to rusophobian Goebbels?
Now you are go out of mind.
You did spread his ideas about commies crimes just PAGE ago.


That's really great :mrgreen: Second my dear friend why would we invade Yugoslavia ? did we take anything from it ?

Sure you wanted "anything".Only for YOUR education, my friend.
Namely:Greek and Serbs Makedonia.


NO , simply there were GERMAN soldiers in it so don't make the history pages different please

Oh really it was just a Utter German soldiers everywhere:)
How i havn't guessed:)?
Well at least you did say there were "dressed up" NKVD officer as one polish friend of mine said:)


. Second don't call part of my nation foolish "intelligent nation " , third i don't give a damn what USSR

Well if part of your nation REALLY did dream for Bulgaria to be the part of USSR, as you told - they were a finished IDIOTS.


, Russia think about so called imaginery bulgarian traitor , why we were traitors , because we didn't obey to "mother russia " ? because we wanted our people back into our homeland ?

No becouse you joined to Inviders and Russian mortal enemy- Nazy Germany, whose ideology considered the Russian as "subhumans".
And you fought with Yugoslavians, our COMMON allies.
This is very enough NOT to trust Bulgaria any more.


Third for Southern Dobrjudja don't dare to take that to your cause , it was given to us by treaty and with help from Hitler not from Josef Stalin your beloved murderer .

Just don't try to seem more ignorant then you are, please.
The Southern Dobrjudja has been FINALY passed to Bulgaria in ..1947 , when your favorite Hitler was dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II#C onsequences_and_results


The Paris Peace Treaties of 1947 confirmed the incorporation of Southern Dobruja into Bulgaria during the War, thus making Bulgaria the only German ally that increased its pre-War territory. The occupied parts of the Aegean region and Vardar Macedonia remaining within the borders of Bulgaria were returned, with 150,000 Bulgarians being expelled from Western Thrace.

It was USSR ( namely murder Josef Stalin) who has agreed with ROmanians to pass that land to Bulgaria after the war.


Fourth there wasn't any other Holocoust other than against the bulgarian minority backed by the serbians which you so much love ,

There were a Holocaust in Makedonia , where you brave soldiers pretty well rounded all the jews to send them to Auswitz.
What a nice friendly cooperation with Nazis:)
Unlike Serbs who fought with inviders, you pretty loved them.


as for the NAzi blunder about the Soviet Union crimes ask Gourbachev or your "allies " from the west they will tell you what you did for 45 years .
And what you call Nazi b.... t is actually the truth and don't dare to educate me about the bulgarian history it's no longer in your power to do so .

Sure all what Nazis told was the TRUE:)
Just like as the their rase-hate theories that you obvioulsy like to believe.
And I really don't care to educate you , coz even the British Wiki( more or less objective source) couldn't.
I just worry about others members, who migh to take your fantasies as the True.


One more thing to honor the germans , hungarians , bulgarians , rumanians , italians i don't think make me a Nazi so don't associeate me with this .

does me associate you with them?
No, it's youself associate you with Nazis ideology, repeating that old points of Goebbels propogand.


Have a great day and don't write more about bulgarian history please otherwise i will always say the truth which i know better as i am bulgarian .
Oh, i'm so scary.
Now the Bulgarian will say the "true", ignoring the obvious historical facts of nacis-bulgarian cooperation , according the Nazis ideology.
Lets make the fun..

Egorka
03-20-2009, 05:29 AM
Goebbels speaks up on Bulgaria (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6876):


4 december 1940 (Wed.)
"And apart from that they hope for something from Russia – quite wrongly, as will finaly become clear. Russia has committed some tactical blunders in Bulgaria, which wants to join the Three-Power pact. She has tried to mobilise the streets against the King. This one must never do. Now Sofia is in a fix. The Bulgarians should have joined immediately. Moscow is unfurling the Pan-Slavic banner in the Balkans, and that is also a bad move. But she will never do anything against us – from fear."

26 march 1941 (Wed.)
"Quiet, determined mood in Bulgaria. Our troops are given a hearty welcome in the countryside. Some pro-English feeling in Sofia. And a strong inclination towards Russia. But not a serious danger."

6 april 1941 (Sun)
"The entire Serbian conspirator-clique must be toppled. The Fuhrer does not fear Russia. He has taken sufficient precautions. And if she attacks, then the sooner the better. Russia has already announced Treaty of Friendship with Belgrade. If we were not to act now, then the entire Balkans, including Turkey, could slip away. This must be prevented. Hungary and Bulgaria will march shoulder to shoulder with us. Not much, but something."

Rising Sun*
03-20-2009, 06:10 AM
You blokes from Eastern Europe are welcome to continue your debate about Yugoslavia etc, but I think it would be better to split that discussion from this thread if it is likely to be continued. Should I split it and, if so, what would be a suitable title?

And if there are to be more posts on the topic, please don't let them descend into name calling and other unhelpful comments but instead have a reasoned historical debate.

herman2
03-20-2009, 07:36 AM
do it!..dO iT!!..sPLIT IT! sPLIT iT!~....Do It!! Your the man!..DO IT!!

Rising Sun*
03-20-2009, 07:42 AM
do it!..dO iT!!..sPLIT IT! sPLIT iT!~....Do It!! Your the man!..DO IT!!

Last time I looked at a map of the world, Canada wasn't in Eastern Europe. Although you do have French renegades in Quebec, but they're linked to Western Europe.

The blokes in Eastern Europe will determine whether they want to continue their discussion, in which case I will split it.

Chevan
03-20-2009, 08:26 AM
Goebbels speaks up on Bulgaria (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6876):


4 december 1940 (Wed.)
"And apart from that they hope for something from Russia – quite wrongly, as will finaly become clear. Russia has committed some tactical blunders in Bulgaria, which wants to join the Three-Power pact. She has tried to mobilise the streets against the King. This one must never do. Now Sofia is in a fix. The Bulgarians should have joined immediately. Moscow is unfurling the Pan-Slavic banner in the Balkans, and that is also a bad move. But she will never do anything against us – from fear."

That's nice mate.Good source.
Well the Three-power pact was so called Triple "anti-comminist" agreement that was directed AGAINST USSR( the "Russia" in term of Goebbels).


26 march 1941 (Wed.)
"Quiet, determined mood in Bulgaria. Our troops are given a hearty welcome in the countryside. Some pro-English feeling in Sofia. And a strong inclination towards Russia. But not a serious danger."

While Yugoslavians and Greeks fought to death against inviders, the Bulgarians "hearty welcomed" the Nazis troops.


6 april 1941 (Sun)
"The entire Serbian conspirator-clique must be toppled. The Fuhrer does not fear Russia. He has taken sufficient precautions. And if she attacks, then the sooner the better. Russia has already announced Treaty of Friendship with Belgrade. If we were not to act now, then the entire Balkans, including Turkey, could slip away. This must be prevented. Hungary and Bulgaria will march shoulder to shoulder with us. Not much, but something."
Yes, the Bulgarians give to Hitler the political right to present the war in Balcan as "international action of Liberation".
Funny enough , He pushed the Rumania to Axis side becouse he personaly returned to Stalin Bessarabia in 1939. That brilliant his "tactical step"( cynical at the same time) has worked well.
Now, in april of 1941 Hitler obviously wanted the Soviet attack first.It should be the brilliant reason to justify the GErman Barbarossa.
But i puzzled, what "tactical blunders" that Russia commited in Bulgaria did he mean?

Chevan
03-20-2009, 08:42 AM
...Should I split it and, if so, what would be a suitable title?
.
I don't think it is necessary mate.
All the things of ww2 are pretty tied to each other.
The Crimes in Ukraine was endeed very simular to ones on Balcans.
Well if only Nick is not going to turn this thread to "Palestinian-Israely conflict" of course:D

Ivaylo
03-20-2009, 10:55 AM
Me , trust to rusophobian Goebbels?
Now you are go out of mind.
You did spread his ideas about commies crimes just PAGE ago.

Sure you wanted "anything".Only for YOUR education, my friend.
Namely:Greek and Serbs Makedonia.

Oh really it was just a Utter German soldiers everywhere:)
How i havn't guessed:)?
Well at least you did say there were "dressed up" NKVD officer as one polish friend of mine said:)

Well if part of your nation REALLY did dream for Bulgaria to be the part of USSR, as you told - they were a finished IDIOTS.

No becouse you joined to Inviders and Russian mortal enemy- Nazy Germany, whose ideology considered the Russian as "subhumans".
And you fought with Yugoslavians, our COMMON allies.
This is very enough NOT to trust Bulgaria any more.

Just don't try to seem more ignorant then you are, please.
The Southern Dobrjudja has been FINALY passed to Bulgaria in ..1947 , when your favorite Hitler was dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II#C onsequences_and_results

It was USSR ( namely murder Josef Stalin) who has agreed with ROmanians to pass that land to Bulgaria after the war.

There were a Holocaust in Makedonia , where you brave soldiers pretty well rounded all the jews to send them to Auswitz.
What a nice friendly cooperation with Nazis:)
Unlike Serbs who fought with inviders, you pretty loved them.

Sure all what Nazis told was the TRUE:)
Just like as the their rase-hate theories that you obvioulsy like to believe.
And I really don't care to educate you , coz even the British Wiki( more or less objective source) couldn't.
I just worry about others members, who migh to take your fantasies as the True.

does me associate you with them?
No, it's youself associate you with Nazis ideology, repeating that old points of Goebbels propogand.

Oh, i'm so scary.
Now the Bulgarian will say the "true", ignoring the obvious historical facts of nacis-bulgarian cooperation , according the Nazis ideology.
Lets make the fun..

Oh i am so scary too , you are complete waste of time , from your words Bulgaria have to kiss the hands and the foot of Russia till it's alive , everything we got we got it from the Russia , they were great and so on . That b....t so i am not gonna waste my time with your commie ideology because next time you can say that bulgaria launched a nuclear weapon in 47 , so imaginery things you say that hardly anyone believe them . If there was such things in "Serb " Makedonia ( one more thing open the maps from the middle ages and see if it was serb or bulgarian commie ) why we wasn't charged with crimes from OON , you , USA someone ? Because that's all is imaginery and iliusion as the communism was too . Second don't waste your fingers Southern Dobrudja was given FIRST by Hitler and that's all important and that's i speak about it won't never be your doing . Third i am not idiot neither my nation is so stop to call us so or i will call the administrator next time . We didn't want Greek ( what a funny idea :D ) or Serbia , we wanted only the lands where there were bulgarian majority , so we didn't wanted Athens or Belgrad because they weren't bulgarian . Fourth once more you and your precious Russia always helped and supported Serbia , Greece against us from the first ww1 till now , which caused us to turn to help to Germany . Only they promised to return the lands which were full with bulgarians which you didn't do ever so go and cry to someone else . As for Yugoslavia and Serbia they were never our and my common allies because they spread terror in Macedonia for which you don't talk cause they are your allies , on the bulgarian ethnicity there which i can call too holoucost . For our participation in WW2 against Germany you gifted Macedonia to serbia for total unbulgarisation , you cutted us from parts of greece ( i say parts not whole greece till Athens ) and said you give us Dobrudja which long before the germans did . So what was the reward .... nothing a kick in the *** , for which we had 45 years to serve under occupation and direct rule of Moscow as slaves thank you very much but that will happen never again .

freyir_33
03-21-2009, 12:53 AM
do it!..dO iT!!..sPLIT IT! sPLIT iT!~....Do It!! Your the man!..DO IT!!

Hoe Hoeooo Beavis,,,,,,,Cool!.

Ivan K
09-15-2010, 01:51 AM
"The German Army and Genocide," Omar Bartov (or ANY of his works). [Camus, well played, brother.] K

Ivan K
09-16-2010, 01:51 AM
Another fine work: "Hitler Strikes Poland: Blitzkrieg, Ideology, and Atrocity." Contains much about the Polish resistance - a factor central to the Wehrmacht's thinking and actions. K

imi
10-17-2010, 03:59 PM
I suprised:I think first time the SD do the executions or the SS.
I saw a video on the net from the execution and soldiers from the Lufwtwaffe do the executions,clearly saw the Luftwaffe collar tabs

Schuultz
10-17-2010, 10:08 PM
I suprised:I think first time the SD do the executions or the SS.
I saw a video on the net from the execution and soldiers from the Lufwtwaffe do the executions,clearly saw the Luftwaffe collar tabs

Not really all that surprising to me. The Luftwaffe Field Divisions were generally regarded as very poor quality combat troops, so they were regularly issued occupational orders. This of course also included hunting down partisans and punishing them. This includes executions.

Of course, as always, the number of actual 'partisans' among those executed is questionable.

coldie
09-21-2011, 09:19 AM
I'm sorry I haven't read all replies to this thread and this is my first post. I guess a little about me..my father is English and grew up in the blitz. We all currently live in Australia where most people know very little about WW2 in general. My understanding is that the British listening in on Trent Park basically proved that the generals knew about the mass murders. I think there is a bit of a myth around these days to the effect that the Wehrmacht did nothing and it was only SS divisions that committed the murders. Having said that, it would seem that only certain elements of the Wehrmacht took part (how many we will probably never know). But there were some commanders who made it plain to the soldiers under their command that they wanted nothing to do with that kind of thing...others who didn't. Of course in any war you get people who take advantage of an opportunity to rape,pillage and kill if that's their desire. War tends to bring that out in people. I would argue however, that given the power that nazism had over people and the indoctrination, that you can't blame the average soldier for having negative feelings towards other races/minorities. The fact that Germany has apologised should count for something..Once again, first post and sorry if I offended anyone.

Rising Sun*
09-22-2011, 08:16 AM
I'm sorry I haven't read all replies to this thread and this is my first post. I guess a little about me..my father is English and grew up in the blitz. We all currently live in Australia where most people know very little about WW2 in general. My understanding is that the British listening in on Trent Park basically proved that the generals knew about the mass murders. I think there is a bit of a myth around these days to the effect that the Wehrmacht did nothing and it was only SS divisions that committed the murders. Having said that, it would seem that only certain elements of the Wehrmacht took part (how many we will probably never know). But there were some commanders who made it plain to the soldiers under their command that they wanted nothing to do with that kind of thing...others who didn't. Of course in any war you get people who take advantage of an opportunity to rape,pillage and kill if that's their desire. War tends to bring that out in people. I would argue however, that given the power that nazism had over people and the indoctrination, that you can't blame the average soldier for having negative feelings towards other races/minorities. The fact that Germany has apologised should count for something..Once again, first post and sorry if I offended anyone.

I don't know if your post was prompted by the same television documentary I saw last night on 'Wehrmacht' complicity in crimes against humanity which included Trent Park eavesdropping as part of the evidence, but it was an eye-opener for me in putting forward compelling evidence, including recollections of Heer participants, that the Heer was heavily involved in such crimes as either primary actors or supporters by providing security cordons around execution sites etc.

Then again, as the program made the usual mistake of thinking that the Heer was the Wehrmacht one has to wonder just how deep and accurate the research and presentation was.

Chevan
09-22-2011, 09:52 AM
Then again, as the program made the usual mistake of thinking that the Heer was the Wehrmacht one has to wonder just how deep and accurate the research and presentation was.
I still can't understand you point RS. If the Heer was a Land componet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heer_(1935%E2%80%931945))( and biggest one) of Werhmach - doest it mean the Wermacht has no deel at all to the crimes that Heer commited? It sound like while Heer were deeply involved in ,say Holocaust in the East, the Wehrmacht just stay behind and look around:)

Rising Sun*
09-22-2011, 08:24 PM
I still can't understand you point RS. If the Heer was a Land componet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heer_(1935%E2%80%931945))( and biggest one) of Werhmach - doest it mean the Wermacht has no deel at all to the crimes that Heer commited? It sound like while Heer were deeply involved in ,say Holocaust in the East, the Wehrmacht just stay behind and look around:)

Apart from the distinction between Wehrmacht and Heer, a distinction needs to be made between (a) the Wehrmacht, which was the combined German defence force comprising the army (Heer), navy (Kriegsmarine) and air force (Luftwaffe) and (b) the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW) which was the general staff controlling the Wehrmacht.

As the Wehrmacht was the combined forces it's difficult to see how the navy would have had much involvement in atrocities in the East, although perhaps it had river boats and other units which might have participated in some fashion. Although the air force had a large presence in the East, I don't know that there was much need for it in committing atrocities, although perhaps it might have contributed in some way by assisting cordons around killing grounds etc.

The OKW has a more direct line of command responsibility for the Heer as one of the forces under its control, but my understanding is that the Heer in the East operated pretty much free of direct OKW control. It's not an area I've ever looked into, but I wouldn't be surprised if some responsibility for atrocities could be laid at the OKW's door for transmitting orders about atrocities etc to the Heer in the East. Someone else on the forum probably has information on this.

coldie
09-23-2011, 06:53 AM
Rising Sun, yes it was the SBS program 'Wehrmacht' complicity in crimes against humanity that prompted me to post. If I'd bothered looking closely I would've seen that this post fizzled out in 2010 but I guess it's still a topic worthy of discussion. All I can say is it was very cunning of the British the way they eavesdropped on those captive German officers..I think I would've preferred to have heard the real voices with a translation rather than the actors we got but was still an interesting watch.

Rising Sun*
09-23-2011, 07:23 AM
All I can say is it was very cunning of the British the way they eavesdropped on those captive German officers.

I think the Trent Park re-enactments were taken from, or filmed during, another documentary in the same series which focused solely on the Trent Park eavesdropping. It was televised some time in the last two or three years on SBS and provided information I wasn't previously aware of, although I expect that people seriously interested in British intelligence work would have known about it.