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freyir_33
03-09-2009, 04:20 AM
Hi,

I have found a documentary of the Wehrmacht exhibition, it was a big controvert when it was shown to the German and Austrian public in 2000, Neo nazis and some vets was demonstrating at the opening of the exhibition, and it was later discredited through its use of a wrong picture. This was later corrected, and it opened again.

The Wermacht ausstellung is a corner stone in post war Germany's clash with their own past, but is interesting as many vets for the first time in public disscus the war crimes of the regular German army.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxPwz_emDmM&feature=channel

The doku is in German, with eng subs

Egorka
03-09-2009, 05:14 AM
VERY interesting film! Mange tak!

Chevan
03-09-2009, 05:51 AM
Yes Mange
Thank for posting and welcome on the board.:)

kamehouse
03-09-2009, 11:59 AM
Old news but nice documentary nonetheless.
A book came out of the exhibition,it's called "The Wehrmacht,History,Myth,Reality" and is written by Wolfram Wette.
Highly recommended read and a real eye opener on the so called "clean hands" of the Wehrmacht.

flamethrowerguy
03-09-2009, 02:00 PM
The lurid and generalizing presentation of the "Wehrmachtsausstellung" was not only criticised by the Neo-Nazi movements, revisionists and veterans' associations but also by liberal politicians, German displaced persons' organisations, active professional military (the Bundeswehr allowed their personnel only to attend the exhibition as private persons) as well as national and international historians.
Polish historian Bogdan Musial asserted that ten pictures actually showed Soviet soldiers committing war crimes in summer of 1941.
Hungarian historian Krisztián Ungváry affirmed that six photos show the execution of Yugoslavian juveniles by soldiers of the Hungarian army. Ungváry recapitulated that only about 10% of the displayed photographs show war crimes by the Wehrmacht. The rest shows the deeds of Hungarian, Finnish and Croatian soldiers, voluntary helpers from the Ukraine, Russia and the Baltic States as well as SS and SD members.

After this wave of criticism the exhibition was temporarily suspended. A fact-finding commission did not want to confirm the amount of deceptive photos but summed up concerning the presentation of the exhibition: "The argument of the exhibition partially condemns too wholesale and is unduly generalizing."

kamehouse
03-09-2009, 02:17 PM
The exhibition toured from March 1995 until the end of 1999 in 33 German and Austrian cities so it can't be that bad?

flamethrowerguy
03-09-2009, 02:27 PM
The exhibition toured from March 1995 until the end of 1999 in 33 German and Austrian cities so it can't be that bad?

Well, excuse my sarcasm but Hitler toured throughout Europe (and even farther) from September 1939 till May 1945 and he was all bad.
Seriously, it had some good intentions and was successful of course because people just love luridness.

kamehouse
03-09-2009, 04:19 PM
Well, excuse my sarcasm but Hitler toured throughout Europe (and even farther) from September 1939 till May 1945 and he was all bad.
Seriously, it had some good intentions and was successful of course because people just love luridness.
The only info I had about this exhibition is what I have from the book I mentioned in my earlier post so it could be biased,just wanted to check with you as you seem to be more in the know.

flamethrowerguy
03-09-2009, 04:30 PM
The only info I had about this exhibition is what I have from the book I mentioned in my earlier post so it could be biased,just wanted to check with you as you seem to be more in the know.

I certainly won't go so far like the German right wing extremists and call Reemtsma, the chairman of the foundation which set up the exhibition, a traitor or someone to foul his own nest but the whole thing will always be controversial.

freyir_33
03-10-2009, 08:07 AM
I certainly won't go so far like the German right wing extremists and call Reemtsma, the chairman of the foundation which set up the exhibition, a traitor or someone to foul his own nest but the whole thing will always be controversial.

The Wehrmacht exhibition was aimed at creating a public debate about the role of the Wehrmacht in WW2, a tabu that has been merely untouched since Ardenauer closed the theme by his speech in the Bundestag( in the sixties I think).

I don't think the exhibition's use of images and sources was controversial because some Images did not match 100% the subject ect, that is not of big importance, the interviews and confessions made by the Visitors that followed is the major issue, and the source of interest to Historians.

Don't forget that the exhibition was also very special in the way image sources was collected, many of the photos was from private collections, or from German family albums.

http://www.mannbeisstfilm.de/files/707_2_1214924569.jpg


I would recommend Michael Verhoven's film Der unbekannte Soldat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ev9Q0Ubm6I), who contains interview's etc with both the exhibitioners, visitors, and historians.

freyir_33
03-10-2009, 08:44 AM
Polish historian Bogdan Musial asserted that ten pictures actually showed Soviet soldiers committing war crimes in summer of 1941.
Hungarian historian Krisztián Ungváry affirmed that six photos show the execution of Yugoslavian juveniles by soldiers of the Hungarian army. Ungváry recapitulated that only about 10% of the displayed photographs show war crimes by the Wehrmacht. The rest shows the deeds of Hungarian, Finnish and Croatian soldiers, voluntary helpers from the Ukraine, Russia and the Baltic States as well as SS and SD members. "

The exhibitions takes a clear stand on that issue, the Wermacht was not always taking part directly in pogroms or ethnic clinching, but logistically supporting the henchmen, and did rarely interfere.

But I guess the most inconvenient matter the exhibition brought into daylight was, that wermacht officers denying taking part in crimes, was not penalized in any way, and therefore forcing many Germans to reexamine the causes of those unexplainable events who lead to the mass killings of civilians in WW2.

Would be nice if other countries had the bravery of dealing with their own history the way the Germans does, they really have something to be proud of here.

flamethrowerguy
03-10-2009, 09:20 AM
As I mentioned before, the original intention of the exhibition was certainly a positive one. But, as a conclusion, you can't do serious research and education with Yellow Press methods. That's what the exhibition did, at least until the concept was revised after the suspension of 1999.

Rising Sun*
03-10-2009, 09:33 AM
Would be nice if other countries had the bravery of dealing with their own history the way the Germans does, they really have something to be proud of here.

Why would the other countries be entitled to be really proud of that when you say that Germany has nothing to be proud of in its war history?


The reason why so few Germans are/was proud their deeds in WW2, is that they actually have nothing to be proud of. #17 at http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7075&page=2

The fact is that, despite your assertions about the German army (Heer, which you wrongly equate with Wehrmacht) supposedly being about as responsible as the SS and the Party for the Holocuast, it was the governments and their local servants in some conquered territories which were the real actors and criminals in the Holocaust.

Those countries don't have anything to be proud of, militarily or morally.

They have escaped the justice which the victims of the Holocaust deserve.

Those countries did nothing to liberate Europe from the Nazis, because they were too busy staying in bed with them.

Yet you don't heap upon them the same condemnation that you do upon the Wehrmacht as a supposed organ of Nazi policy and Holocaust implementation.

Why was the Heer, or Wehrmacht, which didn't select and transport Jews from the occupied territories, worse than the governments there which enthusiastically did?

freyir_33
03-10-2009, 09:54 AM
Those countries did nothing to liberate Europe from the Nazis, because they were too busy staying in bed with them.


Could you be more specific, and mention exactly what countries you mean here




Yet you don't heap upon them the same condemnation that you do upon the Wehrmacht as a supposed organ of Nazi policy and Holocaust implementation.


I guess I am condemning all war crimes, including the Allied raping of thousands of Japanese Woman in 45, as well as executions of prisoners committed by Danish Waffen SS volunteers in the east, but one topic at a time please :)

Rising Sun*
03-10-2009, 10:06 AM
Could you be more specific, and mention exactly what countries you mean here

I find it surprising that a Holocaust scholar like yourself needs instruction in such matters, but you could start with Hungary.


guess I am condemning all war crimes, including the Allied raping of thousands of Japanese Woman in 45

Evidence?

Where?

When?

Whom?


but one topic at a time please :)

Yes, that is a convincing point coming from someone who continually introduces irrelevant material to 'prove' his points, such as alleged Allied rapes of Japanese women in 1945 somehow 'proving' something about Nazi conduct somewhere at some time on the planet, for whatever point you are trying to make beyond all Germans being bastards.

freyir_33
03-10-2009, 10:14 AM
As I mentioned before, the original intention of the exhibition was certainly a positive one. But, as a conclusion, you can't do serious research and education with Yellow Press methods. That's what the exhibition did, at least until the concept was revised after the suspension of 1999.

Fine then at least we can agree to the importance of the revised Wermacht exebition, and it's contribution to History, who was not any different to the first one, appart from some photographs had been changed.

But to say they have been using Yellow Press methods is wrong. Most scientific researches has errors that is corrected as the work progress(or even after), sometimes pointed out by colleague Historians, like in this case Bogdan Musial.

freyir_33
03-10-2009, 10:30 AM
I find it surprising that a Holocaust scholar like yourself needs instruction in such matters, but you could start with Hungary.



Evidence?

Where?

When?

Whom?

Yes, that is a convincing point coming from someone who continually introduces irrelevant material to 'prove' his points, such as alleged Allied rapes of Japanese women in 1945 somehow 'proving' something about Nazi conduct somewhere at some time on the planet, for whatever point you are trying to make beyond all Germans being bastards.

As a matter of fact I did introduce an of topic subject, to make it clear that I wanted to stay on topic OK!, so let's keep to the topic here. I will keep discussing the Wermacht exhibition in this tread, and you? whatever.

PS. Regarding The war crimes of Allied forces, where mainly US crimes is dokumented, I prefer to open a new tread on this subject under US military.

Rising Sun*
03-10-2009, 10:42 AM
Hungary and and and?

There is more than enough in Hungary's actions to support the fact that Germany did not act alone in the Holocaust.

Again, I find it surprising that a Holocaust and Nazi Germany scholar like you needs to be pointed to such matters.

I am beginning to suspect that you are a troll, and my troll detector is rarely wrong.

freyir_33
03-10-2009, 11:02 AM
There is more than enough in Hungary's actions to support the fact that Germany did not act alone in the Holocaust.

Again, I find it surprising that a Holocaust and Nazi Germany scholar like you needs to be pointed to such matters.

I am beginning to suspect that you are a troll, and my troll detector is rarely wrong.

I am well aware of that, but the Wehrmacht exhibition is still the main sub here though the exhibition also includes crimes committed by Hungarians.

I guess I am not more a troll, than u are a revisionist in disguise, so for got sake lets stay on topic, instead of being personal, and take a look at the doku I posted, it's quite god.

flamethrowerguy
03-10-2009, 11:06 AM
Fine then at least we can agree to the importance of the revised Wermacht exebition, and it's contribution to History, who was not any different to the first one, appart from some photographs had been changed.

There were several important changes actually. The second exhibition was focused on the occurences in the Soviet Union exclusively, mislabelled pictures had been sorted out and priority was put on text documents instead of shocking photographs.


But to say they have been using Yellow Press methods is wrong. Most scientific
researches has errors that is corrected as the work progress, sometimes pointed out by colleage Historians, like in this case Bogdan Musial.

The photo captions bristled with a lack of military expert knowledge. Descriptions were made up, based on assumptions or completely missing (exploiting the shock effect of the photographs only).
Wehrmacht soldiers were designated "warriors of the east" or "blitz warriors used to victories" with "sub-leaders gone wild" serving the "juggernaut of the German raid". The Wehrmacht was "murdering on a grand scale" and "extermination specialist" Himmler sent his "killer commandos" of the SD and SS.
This phraseology DOES remind me of the style of Germany's leading Yellow Press newspaper.

flamethrowerguy
03-10-2009, 11:19 AM
A little side-note, the fact that the father of the exhibition's chairman Reemtsma owned the company that was the Wehrmacht's main supplier with cigarettes and tobacco products in general, did not actually increase his credibility over here...

Chevan
03-10-2009, 01:09 PM
A little side-note, the fact that the father of the exhibition's chairman Reemtsma owned the company that was the Wehrmacht's main supplier with cigarettes and tobacco products in general, did not actually increase his credibility over here...
While i do agree that exhibition can be a bit biased, BUT how about the Wehrmach veterans recollection in this film?
I thought that the memours and personal recollection are the best historical matter.
Hardly we might deny their testimonies of war crimes, just becouse we don't like the producers of film.

Chevan
03-10-2009, 01:20 PM
I guess I am condemning all war crimes, including the Allied raping of thousands of Japanese Woman in 45,:)

Hmmmn, intersting
are you sure it weren't dressed up Red Army soldiers?:)

freyir_33
03-10-2009, 05:35 PM
There were several important changes actually. The second exhibition was focused on the occurences in the Soviet Union exclusively, mislabelled pictures had been sorted out and priority was put on text documents instead of shocking photographs.





The photo captions bristled with a lack of military expert knowledge. Descriptions were made up, based on assumptions or completely missing (exploiting the shock effect of the photographs only).
Wehrmacht soldiers were designated "warriors of the east" or "blitz warriors used to victories" with "sub-leaders gone wild" serving the "juggernaut of the German raid". The Wehrmacht was "murdering on a grand scale" and "extermination specialist" Himmler sent his "killer commandos" of the SD and SS. This phraseology DOES remind me of the style of Germany's leading Yellow Press newspaper.

Wrong, and your energetic argumentation, seems only to serve one purpose, to discredit me as well as the Wermachts ausstellung, as a hole.

But as a matter of fact, even without the Wermachts ausstellung, the Wermacht was a major contributor to Holocaust, also it was the only army in the world with an open agenda to execute other Army officers. The so called
Guideline for the Treatment of Political Commissars. I have attached the guideline in English as it was handled over to the
leading wermacht officers.

Staff Command Secret Document

Chief Only

Only Through Officer

High Command of the Wehrmacht

WFST [Armed Forces Operational Staff] Div. L (VI/Qu)

No. 44822/41 g.K Chiefs

Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars

In the fight against Bolshevism it is not to be expected that the enemy will act in accordance with the principles of humanity or international law. In particular, the political commissars of all kinds, who are the real bearers of resistance, can be expected to mete out treatment to our prisoners that is full of hate, cruel and inhuman.

The army must be aware of the following:

1. In this battle it would be mistaken to show mercy or respect for international law towards such elements. They constitute a danger to our own security and to the rapid pacification of the occupied territories.

2. The barbaric, Asiatic fighting methods are originated by the political commissars. Action must therefore be taken against them immediately, without further consideration, and with all severity. Therefore, when they are picked up in battle or resistance, they are, as a matter of principle, to be finished immediately with a weapon.

In addition, the following regulations are to be observed:

Operational Areas

1) Political commissars operating against our armies are to be dealt with in accordance with the decree on judicial provisions in the area of "Barbarossa." This applies to commissars of every type and rank, even if they are only suspected of resistance, sabotage or incitement to sabotage....

flamethrowerguy
03-10-2009, 05:54 PM
I doesn't change the fact that the exhibition availed many unpleasant sides of the German Landser...

I can't remember anyone here denying this.


...and that the Holocaust could not had happened without
the logistic and the military success of the wermacht.

This wouldn't count for the German Jews.

freyir_33
03-10-2009, 06:22 PM
Hmmmn, intersting
are you sure it weren't dressed up Red Army soldiers?:)

I bit off topic, but i will tell it anyway. After the red army occupied the Danish Island Bornholm in 45, there was a few rapes of Danish woman, mainly done by hardened Kirgisian front pigs, who could not tell the difference between Danes and Germans i guess. The Soviets commander did though send some of them back to Stalin, and replaced them with young recruits, who later hat a fine relationship to the locals.

flamethrowerguy
03-10-2009, 06:32 PM
Wrong

Well, that's what you call it.


, and your energetic argumentation, seems only to serve one purpose, to discredit me as well as the Wermachts ausstellung, as a hole.

Uhm, you certainly discredited yourself by calling RS* a "war crime denier" and "revisionist" within your very first posts.


But as a matter of fact, even without the Wermachts ausstellung, the Wermacht was a major contributor to Holocaust, also it was the only army in the world with an open agenda to execute other Army officers. The so called
Guideline for the Treatment of Political Commissars. I have attached the guideline in English as it was handled over to the
leading wermacht officers.

Staff Command Secret Document

Chief Only

Only Through Officer

High Command of the Wehrmacht

WFST [Armed Forces Operational Staff] Div. L (VI/Qu)

No. 44822/41 g.K Chiefs

Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars

In the fight against Bolshevism it is not to be expected that the enemy will act in accordance with the principles of humanity or international law. In particular, the political commissars of all kinds, who are the real bearers of resistance, can be expected to mete out treatment to our prisoners that is full of hate, cruel and inhuman.

The army must be aware of the following:

1. In this battle it would be mistaken to show mercy or respect for international law towards such elements. They constitute a danger to our own security and to the rapid pacification of the occupied territories.

2. The barbaric, Asiatic fighting methods are originated by the political commissars. Action must therefore be taken against them immediately, without further consideration, and with all severity. Therefore, when they are picked up in battle or resistance, they are, as a matter of principle, to be finished immediately with a weapon.

In addition, the following regulations are to be observed:

Operational Areas

1) Political commissars operating against our armies are to be dealt with in accordance with the decree on judicial provisions in the area of "Barbarossa." This applies to commissars of every type and rank, even if they are only suspected of resistance, sabotage or incitement to sabotage....


You want to check your sources. Soviet Poltical Commissars were not "officers" but were subordinated to a central office in Moscow and they were beyond the military command structure.
Furthermore you forgot to mention that this abominable order -which was actually passed by Hitler onto the Wehrmacht's supreme command- was repealed in May 1942 - due to the constant, repeated pressure of the Heer command and the higher Wehrmacht officers' corps.

Nickdfresh
03-10-2009, 07:13 PM
I guess I am condemning all war crimes, including the Allied raping of thousands of Japanese Woman in 45,:)

Um, there were no mass, widespread rapes. And they certainly were not officially condoned nor ignored. Rapes happened, but they were exceptions not the rule...

If you're looking for cases where US troops went on rampages and did mass-rape the local populace, then I suggest you pick up a copy of "An Army at Dawn" by Rick Atkinson where he discusses isolated, but appalling instances committed by soldiers in North Africa...

But I suspect this is all ticky flame-bait, isn't it? I mean, could you find a more inappropriate place to insert a smiley?

Nickdfresh
03-10-2009, 07:19 PM
I find it surprising that a Holocaust scholar like yourself needs instruction in such matters, but you could start with Hungary.


:lol:



Evidence?

Where?

When?

Whom?

Evidence you say? That would take all the fun of watching someone not knowing the first ****ing thing they're talking about on a message board and saying it with such righteous indignation....:)


Yes, that is a convincing point coming from someone who continually introduces irrelevant material to 'prove' his points, such as alleged Allied rapes of Japanese women in 1945 somehow 'proving' something about Nazi conduct somewhere at some time on the planet, for whatever point you are trying to make beyond all Germans being bastards.

Beats actually reading anything about WWII, eh mate? :D

Chevan
03-11-2009, 01:04 AM
....Wermacht was a major contributor to Holocaust, also it was the only army in the world with an open agenda to execute other Army officers. The so called
Guideline for the Treatment of Political Commissars. I have attached the guideline in English as it was handled over to the
leading wermacht officers.

Staff Command Secret Document

Chief Only

Only Through Officer

High Command of the Wehrmacht

WFST [Armed Forces Operational Staff] Div. L (VI/Qu)

No. 44822/41 g.K Chiefs

Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars

In the fight against Bolshevism it is not to be expected that the enemy will act in accordance with the principles of humanity or international law. In particular, the political commissars of all kinds, who are the real bearers of resistance, can be expected to mete out treatment to our prisoners that is full of hate, cruel and inhuman.

The army must be aware of the following:

1. In this battle it would be mistaken to show mercy or respect for international law towards such elements. They constitute a danger to our own security and to the rapid pacification of the occupied territories.

2. The barbaric, Asiatic fighting methods are originated by the political commissars. Action must therefore be taken against them immediately, without further consideration, and with all severity. Therefore, when they are picked up in battle or resistance, they are, as a matter of principle, to be finished immediately with a weapon.

In addition, the following regulations are to be observed:

Operational Areas

1) Political commissars operating against our armies are to be dealt with in accordance with the decree on judicial provisions in the area of "Barbarossa." This applies to commissars of every type and rank, even if they are only suspected of resistance, sabotage or incitement to sabotage....


Yes, so called "Kommissars order" was unique in its nature for all WW2 armies( well except probably Japane imperial army , who might to execute/behead everything that moved or simply looks suspective, having not care about any ORDER at all:D)
For sake of true i shall say that Red Army sometimes soldiers also executed POWs in GErmany VOLUNTARY.
But ONLY if they can prove to NKVD ( in a case when NKVD learn about it) that those soldiers can't provide the valuable information for Armis intelligence.
I know that Wermach also has got a special Nasional-Socialistic officers since 1944.It seems it's happend when Himler take a controll over Group Armies Vistula( Jenuary 1945) or sooner. All of NS officers were from SS and subordinated directly SS command in BErlin.
I don't know what was happend with them, beeing captured by Red Army.
Many of them has been executed ( the ss were specially "loved" by our soldiers, for mass atrocities in east or due to propogand of Ilia Erenburg)
But not all of them, coz now we STILL migh observe the some WaffenSS/SS veterans in parades in baltic states.Alive and feel good.

Chevan
03-11-2009, 01:14 AM
I bit off topic, but i will tell it anyway. After the red army occupied the Danish Island Bornholm in 45, there was a few rapes of Danish woman, mainly done by hardened Kirgisian front pigs, who could not tell the difference between Danes and Germans i guess. The Soviets commander did though send some of them back to Stalin, and replaced them with young recruits, who later hat a fine relationship to the locals.
Hm , they had a fine relations with locals?
You probably the first to say me such a infor:)
I know the Soviet command persecuted the rapings in Red army , but ONLY since aprile of 1945.
There was a special order od Stavka about discipline and conduct toward local civils..
Also since 1945 the Stalin's famouse phrase "Hitlers come ane gone, but GErmany leave". That was meaning the reducing the anti-german hysteria in Soviet propogand( even the main German-hate propogandists Ilia Erenburg has been seriously criticized and dismissed ).

Rising Sun*
03-11-2009, 06:13 AM
I guess I am not more a troll, than u are a revisionist in disguise, so for got sake lets stay on topic, instead of being personal, and take a look at the doku I posted, it's quite god.

Nah, my troll meter says you're a troll.

As evidenced by you slipping in the revisionist insult as flame bait, then disingenuously asking to stay on topic instead of getting personal.

I can't be bothered responding, because you don't know what you're talking about while transparent and unoriginal trolls like you bore me rigid.

Rising Sun*
03-11-2009, 06:18 AM
Wrong, and your energetic argumentation, seems only to serve one purpose, to discredit me as ... as a hole.

Well, FTG's energetic attempts to discredit you as an a hole aren't working, because you are establishing yourself as an A grade a hole.

freyir_33
03-11-2009, 06:25 AM
The view on Communism in many western countries after the liberation, was much more positive than today, after all red army had liberated them from the third Reich. In many countries the communist parties grew, and in Denmark it was the third biggest political party after the war.

That said,,, apart from the Commies, did the Danes do anything they could to get the Soviets to leave Bornholm, and they left the Island the 5 april 1946.

On the nationall Danish television there was a doku some time ago, in connection with the celebration of the 5 april 1946, with the Russian ambassador, Soviet vets, Danish queen etc.

http://www.dr.dk/Regioner/Bornholm/Tema/2006/Russerne/20060404141521.htm

Rising Sun*
03-11-2009, 06:26 AM
Evidence you say? That would take all the fun of watching someone not knowing the first ****ing thing they're talking about on a message board and saying it with such righteous indignation....:)

It would, wouldn't it?

But I expect he's used to it. ;)

Not that we're going to get used to him if he maintains his trolling.

freyir_33
03-11-2009, 06:30 AM
Well, FTG's energetic attempts to discredit you as an a hole aren't working, because you are establishing yourself as an A grade a hole.

Sorry my English is not god enough to understand your play with words, maybe we could continue the discur in German, a nation you apparently has such a profound knowledge on?

Rising Sun*
03-11-2009, 06:39 AM
Sorry my English is not god enough to understand your play with words,

Bullshit!


maybe we could continue the discur in German, a nation you apparently has such a profound knowledge on?

You presume that I am actually interested in responding to your flame baits.

Alas, I'm not.

Unfortunately for you, we're used to a much better class of troll here. You're just infantile and boring.

freyir_33
03-11-2009, 06:53 AM
Um, there were no mass, widespread rapes. And they certainly were not officially condoned nor ignored. Rapes happened, but they were exceptions not the rule...

If you're looking for cases where US troops went on rampages and did mass-rape the local populace, then I suggest you pick up a copy of "An Army at Dawn" by Rick Atkinson where he discusses isolated, but appalling instances committed by soldiers in North Africa...

But I suspect this is all ticky flame-bait, isn't it? I mean, could you find a more inappropriate place to insert a smiley?

I didn't say mass rapes, I said there are an estimation that 10.000 Japanese woman was raped in 45. The problem with rapes, is there a few actual sources to underline the numbers, but As far as my wife has told me, the US trops in Phillipines also raped quite a few girls, many of minor age.

I am full aware that of the fact that rapes committed by the Allied, was not an organized part of the conquest, like the Japanese brothels etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes

freyir_33
03-11-2009, 07:05 AM
Well, that's what you call it.



Uhm, you certainly discredited yourself by calling RS* a "war crime denier" and "revisionist" within your very first posts.



You want to check your sources. Soviet Poltical Commissars were not "officers" but were subordinated to a central office in Moscow and they were beyond the military command structure.
Furthermore you forgot to mention that this abominable order -which was actually passed by Hitler onto the Wehrmacht's supreme command- was repealed in May 1942 - due to the constant, repeated pressure of the Heer command and the higher Wehrmacht officers' corps.

Ok Genosse, A dead Officer or Commissar shall not tear us apart. lets just agree that we disagree.

Rising Sun*
03-11-2009, 07:27 AM
I didn't say mass rapes, I said there are an estimation that 10.000 Japanese woman was raped in 45.

No, at #14 you said


the Allied raping of thousands of Japanese Woman in 45

Now that you have a precise estimate of a nice round figure of 10,000, could you provide a source for that figure, other than Wiki (see below)?


The problem with rapes, is there a few actual sources to underline the numbers, but As far as my wife has told me, the US trops in Phillipines also raped quite a few girls, many of minor age.

When and where did this happen? What is the basis for her claim?


I am full aware that of the fact that rapes committed by the Allied, was not an organized part of the conquest, like the Japanese brothels etc.

You don't have any idea where most of the women in many IJA field and occupation brothels came from, do you?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes

Yes, a very reliable source, and always highly regarded by professional and serious amateur military historians. :rolleyes:

Note the request [who] on the Wiki page for the source relied upon for the 10,000 figure you are presenting as reliable.


While the number of rapes committed by US troops is not known, historian Peter Schrijvers states that an Okinawan historian[who?] has estimated that the number may have exceeded 10,000

Rising Sun*
03-11-2009, 07:52 AM
Furthermore you forgot to mention that this abominable order -which was actually passed by Hitler onto the Wehrmacht's supreme command- was repealed in May 1942 - due to the constant, repeated pressure of the Heer command and the higher Wehrmacht officers' corps.

Surely not!

According to freyir_33 the Heer and Wehrmacht (which he thinks are the same thing) were rabid Nazis storming across Europe as the spearhead of the Holocaust, which freyir_33 somehow sees as being linked to that order, Soviet political commissars apparently being the primary source of Jews for the concentration and death camps. What a revelation! :rolleyes:

And here you are, FTG, saying that both the Heer and higher Wehrmacht command pressed successfully for repeal of that order. Where does that leave freyir_33's remorseless refusal to accord any honour or source of pride to the Heer or Wehrmacht? Or any German people during WWII?

I guess it's left to Holocaust deniers and revisionists like me to re-state the position that there were many examples of proper and moral conduct by German forces in WWII, as in the example FTG has given, and that contrary to freyir_33's assertion that Germans have nothing to be proud of in WWII they have a good deal to be proud of.

And are entitled to be proud of, on a very large and prolonged scale, in occupied France where generally they behaved correctly and considerably better than some Allied troops from mid-1944. Which, given German animosity towards France over the 1918 terms and subsequent French treatment, is all the more deserving of respect for correct behaviour.

Nickdfresh
03-11-2009, 08:19 AM
I didn't say mass rapes, I said there are an estimation that 10.000 Japanese woman was raped in 45.

From whom?! I've never presented "Wiki as reliable." There are pages that are well written and mostly factual, then there are agendists that start overly broad topics and cite negligible historians as is the case with the "10,000" number with a smattering of Axis-apologetic...


The problem with rapes, is there a few actual sources to underline the numbers, but As far as my wife has told me, the US trops in Phillipines also raped quite a few girls, many of minor age.

Oh, anecdotal history...


I am full aware that of the fact that rapes committed by the Allied, was not an organized part of the conquest, like the Japanese brothels etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes

Of course, rapes were committed everywhere. It has more to do with the scale of the problem and the command reaction to it. "Allied War Crimes" are often just apologist speculation and -oh yeah- troll flame-bait...US troops also nearly opened fire on Colonial French-Algerian Berger soldiers in Italy for their rampaging through the Italian countryside...

Chevan
03-11-2009, 08:21 AM
Now that you have a precise estimate of a nice round figure of 10,000, could you provide a source for that figure, other than Wiki (see below)?

Mate , you will laugh but source is the American
^ Schrijvers, Peter (2002). The GI War Against Japan. New York City: New York University Press. p. 212. ISBN 0814798160.

Yes, a very reliable source, and always highly regarded by professional and serious amateur military historians. :rolleyes:

Oh it was ENOUGH reliable source when we discussed the Soviet/Germans crimes, right?. Why it's suddenly turned to be not reliable if to deal the Allied crimes?
I don't think that Wiki is a standart meter oh historical true and accuracy, but though.
BTW there a few about Australians

"A former prostitute recalled that as soon as Australian troops arrived in Kure in early 1946, they 'dragged young women into their jeeps, took them to the mountain, and then raped them. I heard them screaming for help nearly every night'."The Allied occupation forces suppressed news of its criminal activities, on September 10 1945 SCAP "issued press and pre-censorship codes outlawing the publication of all reports and statistics 'inimical to the objectives of the Occupation'."
Allan Clifton, an Australian officer of the BCOF who acted as interpreter and criminal investigator wrote:

"I stood beside a bed in hospital. On it lay a girl, unconscious, her long, black hair in wild tumult on the pillow. A doctor and two nurses were working to revive her. An hour before she had been raped by twenty soldiers. We found her where they had left her, on a piece of waste land. the hospital was in Hiroshima. the girl was Japanese. The soldiers were Australians.
The Moaning and wailing had ceased and she was quiet now. The tortured tension on her face had slipped away, and the soft brown skin was smooth and unwrinkled, stained with tears like the face of a child that has cried herself to sleep.
As to Australian justice he writes regarding another rape that was witnessed by a party of cardplayers:

"At the court martial that followed, the accused was found guilty and sentenced to ten years penal servitude. In accordance with army law the courts decision was forwarded to Australia for confirmation. Some time later the documents were returned marked 'Conviction quashed because of insufficient evidenc
Ding dong!!!
Where is Antony Beevour when he needed?:)
Red Army 2: Dowfall of Kure :mrgreen:
I really didn't know that Allied command suppressed the infor about rapes.

Rising Sun*
03-11-2009, 08:24 AM
Oh, anecdotal history...

Do you mean his missus is talking out of her anecdote? ;) :D

Cuts
03-11-2009, 08:38 AM
Oh, anecdotal history...Do you mean his missus is talking out of her anecdote? ;) :D

I think, gentlemen, you'll find that in this case it's written 'anecdateal herstory.' ;)

Rising Sun*
03-11-2009, 08:49 AM
Mate , you will laugh but source is the American
^ Schrijvers, Peter (2002). The GI War Against Japan. New York City: New York University Press. p. 212. ISBN 0814798160.

I don't have the book so all I can go on is the Wiki entry, which you'll see from my post above is questioned by the Wiki people as no source is quoted for the claimed figure of upwards of 10,000.


Oh it was ENOUGH reliable source when we discussed the Soviet/Germans crimes, right?. Why it's suddenly turned to be not reliable if to deal the Allied crimes?

Well, it might have been enough for you then, but I don't think I used it too much. ;) :D


BTW there a few about Australians

Yes, and for any Australian occupation troops who behaved like that it was appalling behaviour which should have resulted in proper criminal processes and punishments against the offenders.

However, it should be noted that contrary to freyir_33’s assertions about rapes in 1945 the Wiki entries about Australian troops all refer to occupation troops in 1946, many of whom were not combat troops from the war. As is often the case with REMFs, they can be the worst in raping, looting and pillaging, as was the case in France in the second half of 1944 when rape of French women by American REMFs, predominantly Negroes in some areas which it is now politically incorrect to mention, became a serious problem. Then again, it might be that Negroes were sacrificed where white offenders weren’t prosecuted with the same vigour in an army which confined Negroes largely to REMF functions.


I really didn't know that Allied command suppressed the infor about rapes.

What did you think they would do?

Take out a full page advertisements in the New York Times? ;) :D

Rising Sun*
03-11-2009, 08:54 AM
I think, gentlemen, you'll find that in this case it's written 'anecdateal herstory.' ;)

Ah!

Like the calendar cat.

Always showing its date. :D

Chevan
03-11-2009, 09:02 AM
Well, it might have been enough for you then, but I don't think I used it too much. ;) :D

Yes i do use it.
And Nick used it:D
As for my friend Kovalsky - he loves to quote ONLY Wiki about Katyn:)


Yes, and for any Australian occupation troops who behaved like that it was appalling behaviour which should have resulted in proper criminal processes and punishments against the offenders.

However, it should be noted that contrary to freyir_33’s assertions about rapes in 1945 the Wiki entries about Australian troops all refer to occupation troops in 1946, many of whom were not combat troops from the war. As is often the case with REMFs, they can be the worst in raping, looting and pillaging, as was the case in France in the second half of 1944 when rape of French women by American REMFs, predominantly Negroes in some areas which it is now politically incorrect to mention, became a serious problem. Then again, it might be that Negroes were sacrificed where white offenders weren’t prosecuted with the same vigour in an army which confined Negroes largely to REMF functions.

What ?
Damn , you know how to wonder me allways.
Now i've learn , quite by the chance, that USA REMFs also raped the Frenchs just like soviets did in poland.
:)


What did you think they would do?

Take out a full page advertisements in the New York Times? ;) :D
Why in NEw York Times, mate.
At least in Soviet newspaper "Pravda" for begin:)
Its a democracy or how?

flamethrowerguy
03-11-2009, 09:24 AM
I know that Wermach also has got a special Nasional-Socialistic officers since 1944.It seems it's happend when Himler take a controll over Group Armies Vistula( Jenuary 1945) or sooner. All of NS officers were from SS and subordinated directly SS command in BErlin..

The German counterpart - the NSFO (National-sozialistischer Führungsoffizier) - was introduced in late 1943 on Hitler's order. The main difference (except the contains of their sermons) to the Soviet Commissars would be the fact that NSFO's were regular army officers (not SS!) and their Nazi education duties were actually an auxiliary function.


I don't know what was happend with them, beeing captured by Red Army.

They didn't have special uniforms or badges etc. So, if they were smart enough to get rid of their pay books on time or if they weren't denunciated, the Red Army wouldn't even know...

Rising Sun*
03-11-2009, 09:44 AM
What ?
Damn , you know how to wonder me allways.

Now I'm wondering what I said to make you wonder. What was it? Because I'm wondering what you're wondering about. ;) :)


Why in NEw York Times, mate.
At least in Soviet newspaper "Pravda" for begin:)


Mate, if the non-Soviet, non-Chinese Allies were going to publish anything anywhere about anything bad about Allied behaviour, Pravda would have had to be an attractive destination. Particularly as it would have been printed in Russian, which hardly anyone outside Russia could read. And as Moscow newsagents probably didn't home-deliver much past Poland. :)

freyir_33
03-11-2009, 10:25 AM
Anecdotal history is the basic foundation of most research on rape crimes, one way or another. But off course Wicki is not always the most reliable source, but it is as god as it's list of literature I guess, and some of information on Wicki are even better than many amateur history sources I have seen.

freyir_33
03-11-2009, 10:43 AM
And if some of you need a reliable sorce on behalf the Crimes of the Wermacht, I will recommend this book, it is in German though. You can also find it online at Cambridge universitys homepage, I hope that source are reliable enough.

Wehrmacht und Vernichtungspolitik: Militär im nationalsozialistischen System. Edited by Karl Heinrich Pohl. Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. 1999. Pp. 175. DM 29.00. ISBN 3-525-01382-5.

or this one in English

Hitler's War in the East, 1941-1945 Af Rolf-Dieter Müller, Gerd R. Ueberschär, Bibliothek für Zeitgeschichte

flamethrowerguy
03-11-2009, 12:18 PM
Wehrmacht und Vernichtungspolitik: Militär im nationalsozialistischen System. Edited by Karl Heinrich Pohl. Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. 1999. Pp. 175. DM 29.00. ISBN 3-525-01382-5.

That would be the very same Karl Heinrich Pohl who attested the Wehrmachtsausstellung "a most disputable conception" and called it "adverse to attenders".


or this one in English

Hitler's War in the East, 1941-1945 Af Rolf-Dieter Müller, Gerd R. Ueberschär, Bibliothek für Zeitgeschichte

And it was Prof. Rolf-Dieter Müller, scientific director of the military-historic office for research in Potsdam, who criticized the original exhibition's "suggestive and scandalising manner of presentation" and especially "the masking of coherencies connected to the Wehrmacht's crimes."

Nickdfresh
03-11-2009, 12:45 PM
Help! I'm being attacked with Cockney rhyming slang! :confused:

Nickdfresh
03-11-2009, 12:54 PM
Yes i do use it.
And Nick used it:D
As for my friend Kovalsky - he loves to quote ONLY Wiki about Katyn:)

But there is a distinction between various Wiki pages which vary widely in quality and scholarship. While Wiki is not a very reliable, concrete source as a result, there are basic red flags when a lack of verifiable sources is noted by the Wiki staff themselves. As noted, there was no specific listing of the author in the listed number other than the obviously sarcastic "weasel word" or "who?".

Also, I believe the quote was "as many as 10,000" which, like the page topic itself, is a pretty glib and broad comment...

I am aware of a case where about roughly four black American "remf" soldiers that repeatedly went to a Okinawan village and raped several girls night after night until the villagers rose up and killed them. The men were listed as missing in action and no known reprisal was conducted against the villagers and the incident only came to light in the last fifteen years I believe when their remains were found hidden in a cave...

I'm certainly not denying that rapes happened, just were the number "10,000" comes from as there seems to be almost no other historians concurring with this tab...


What ?
Damn , you know how to wonder me allways.
Now i've learn , quite by the chance, that USA REMFs also raped the Frenchs just like soviets did in poland.
:)
...

I've stated this before, and I believe you asked me for information regarding the text it came from which was "An Army at Dawn" by Rick Atkinson...

And again, it was a horrible incident that was the exception, not the norm...

Nickdfresh
03-11-2009, 01:05 PM
As luck would have it, a copy is available via Google Books on pg. 463 of the text:

http://books.google.com/books?id=RUgSW8r2bMwC&pg=RA1-PA616&dq=An+Army+at+Dawn%22+by+Rick+Atkinson&client=firefox-a#PPA463,M1

Panzerknacker
03-11-2009, 05:34 PM
An eye opener exhibition, too bad that probably we never going to see something similar in display in Moscow, dealing with Red Army crimes.

Egorka
03-11-2009, 06:12 PM
An eye opener exhibition, too bad that probably we never going to see something similar in display in Moscow, dealing with Red Army crimes.
Is the situation that bad you think?

freyir_33
03-11-2009, 10:03 PM
An eye opener exhibition, too bad that probably we never going to see something similar in display in Moscow, dealing with Red Army crimes.

Or arrange one about the crimes of Pinot chet in Buenos Aires, No offence ment!, I have many Argentinian friends who came to live here as Political refuges.

Chevan
03-12-2009, 01:07 AM
The German counterpart - the NSFO (National-sozialistischer Führungsoffizier) - was introduced in late 1943 on Hitler's order. The main difference (except the contains of their sermons) to the Soviet Commissars would be the fact that NSFO's were regular army officers (not SS!) and their Nazi education duties were actually an auxiliary function.

Yes , flamethrowerguy you fight.
Thank you for correction.it was in 1943.

Chevan
03-12-2009, 02:51 AM
Or arrange one about the crimes of Pinot chet in Buenos Aires, No offence ment!, I have many Argentinian friends who came to live here as Political refuges.
As i know Pinochet Ugarter has commited crimes in Chili.
There was OWN military junta in Argentine , that commited the crimes toward Left-wings( real or suspective) in Argentine.

freyir_33
03-12-2009, 03:34 AM
As i know Pinochet Ugarter has commited crimes in Chili.
There was OWN military junta in Argentine , that commited the crimes toward Left-wings( real or suspective) in Argentine.

You are right thanks, we need one in both countries. By the way, isn't it a contradiction that in a ww2 forum some people act like old women, instead of men.

Rising Sun*
03-12-2009, 04:27 AM
By the way, isn't it a contradiction that in a ww2 forum some people act like old women, instead of men.

Can't resist popping in the flame bait, can you?

Keep it up and see where it gets you.

Consider this an informal warning from a moderator to pull your head in and stop trying to start conflicts.

freyir_33
03-12-2009, 05:09 AM
Can't resist popping in the flame bait, can you?

Keep it up and see where it gets you.

Consider this an informal warning from a moderator to pull your head in and stop trying to start conflicts.

You are right, I will

Chers Mate

PS. Hopefully the All Black's win the Bledisloe Cup 2009 ;)

Schuultz
03-12-2009, 07:06 AM
You do realize that the All Blacks are from New Zealand? The Wallabies are the Australian ones...

PS: If you were just trying to provoke RS*, please ignore the previous comment and wait for his infinite Australian wrath...

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/10/1/128673519540467731.jpg
http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/030630/13194__jack_l.jpg

Yes, I know he kicked a second early, but he's a kangaroo, for god's sake!

Rising Sun*
03-12-2009, 07:54 AM
You do realize that the All Blacks are from New Zealand? The Wallabies are the Australian ones...

Interest factor zero in my state where, apart from a few uncouth brutes who wallow in that disgusting refereed brawl called rugby, we play Aussie Rules football, which is a much faster and vastly more refined game. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkOeckK_yc

Okay, that's the way it was some years back, but not as good as when I was a kid where an all-in brawl between two teams of 18 men each before the game even started wasn't unusual, just to set the tone for an interesting afternoon of random unbridled violence annoyingly interrupted by occasional passages of play. :D

Now they've gone all politically correct and sissy.

Schuultz
03-12-2009, 08:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkOeckK_yc

That's pretty intense, I gotta give you that...

What's the average rate of survival for a game? 50%? 40%? ;)

Rising Sun*
03-12-2009, 08:23 AM
That's pretty intense, I gotta give you that...

What's the average rate of survival for a game? 50%? 40%? ;)

Nah, about 100%. The modern game has got rid of the rough edges to encourage women and kids to come to see clean play. Which is a bit odd, as off the field the players seem to be flat out pissing in public places, getting into fights, sexually assaulting women, and associating with organised crime figures. Apparently the sport's governing body regards this as an improvement. :rolleyes:

Here's the modern game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xHk1dOy35s&playnext_from=PL&feature=PlayList&p=100779A0EA73737E&playnext=1&index=41

Then again, there are still echoes of the past, but occurring somewhat surprisingly in an intra-club pre-season match. He's an Irish import, so what can you expect? :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqx0GzUOmEw

Schuultz
03-12-2009, 08:31 AM
Ah well, the Irish. You gotta love them. Just make sure you're on their side in a Barfight... :D

Chevan
03-12-2009, 08:44 AM
Nah, about 100%. The modern game has got rid of the rough edges to encourage women and kids to come to see clean play.

Why do you think woman and children don't like a fight on the field?:rolleyes:
As i know the NHL members specially get fight diring the game to attract the some sort of public , who likes the violence and boxings( lesbian-woman and agressive children included:))
This is e essential part of Show, that contribute to the rating of game and "popularity".
When the virgin Soviet Hockey-playes has come in first time to Canada in 1971 thay have been "infected" by the "canadian harsh style" :) ( AFter that infamous tournament, they start to beat yeach other right on the field).
All the evil comes from the West :)


Which is a bit odd, as off the field the players seem to be flat out pissing in public places, getting into fights, sexually assaulting women, and associating with organised crime figures. Apparently the sport's governing body regards this as an improvement. :rolleyes:

Nah, it's not odd, coz it's a part of SHow.
The scandals just increase their personal popularity by mass media.
Look at Diego Maradona.

Rising Sun*
03-12-2009, 09:18 AM
Why do you think woman and children don't like a fight on the field?:rolleyes:

I don't think that.

It's the sport's governing body that thinks that.

Women and kids love organised violence. That's why most schoolteachers are women. :D

Panzerknacker
03-12-2009, 05:05 PM
Or arrange one about the crimes of Pinot chet in Buenos Aires, No offence ment!, I have many Argentinian friends who came to live here as Political refuges.

When you try to provoke people it works best if you know what you are talking about :rolleyes: , Augusto Pinochet Ugarte was the dictator of Chile not Argentina, there is an austellung of the Argentine Armed Forced crimes in the forme Navy mechanical school in the city of Buenos Aires, but of course none of that is related with the lack of intellectual honesty of the russians.

Probably it have to do with the fact that Russia was, and still is a police state.

Chevan
03-13-2009, 12:52 AM
When you try to provoke people it works best if you know what you are talking about :rolleyes: , Augusto Pinochet Ugarte was the dictator of Chile not Argentina, there is an austellung of the Argentine Armed Forced crimes in the forme Navy mechanical school in the city of Buenos Aires, but of course none of that is related with the lack of intellectual honesty of the russians.

When you try to provoke the peoples first , your own reaction look wery fun for others.


Probably it have to do with the fact that Russia was, and still is a police state.
...said naive one, from "stronghold of Democraty" - Agrentine.:)
In police Russia , buddy , peoples at least did not disappear just 25 years back.When your "national-democratic" Junta murdered every one, who looks suspiciously.

freyir_33
03-13-2009, 05:13 AM
When you try to provoke people it works best if you know what you are talking about :rolleyes: , Augusto Pinochet Ugarte was the dictator of Chile not Argentina, there is an austellung of the Argentine Armed Forced crimes in the forme Navy mechanical school in the city of Buenos Aires, but of course none of that is related with the lack of intellectual honesty of the russians.

Probably it have to do with the fact that Russia was, and still is a police state.

Sometime I write with the head under my arms, as I have job to do besides visiting the forum.

But thank for the infos, I think too many discussions here, are not staying on topic, It is simply not possible to discuss history when each time someone
brings on a subject, they are countered with childish comparisons.

I know I have been doing it myself in bringing on the rape issue, but that was wrong.

From an analytic approach, it is impossible to draw a direct comparison between Communist and Nazi crimes, as the reason of the crimes was different.

That said there where still crimes on both sides who served the same purpose, but still comparisons are not helping anyone in understanding history, rather than getting confused.

Rising Sun*
03-13-2009, 06:00 AM
Sometime I write with the head under my arms,

Make sure you use deodorant. :D



But thank for the infos, I think too many discussions here, are not staying on topic,

Perhaps the greatest virtue of this board is that it allows discussions to wander, both on serious and frivolous matters. This allows things to be explored in a way that doesn't happen on boards where the moderators apply a rigid 'on topic' policy which often stifles useful discussion. Plus we can have a bit of fun.



It is simply not possible to discuss history when each time someone brings on a subject, they are countered with childish comparisons.

Yes, it is.

If you have sound counter-arguments, present them.


From an analytic approach, it is impossible to draw a direct comparison between Communist and Nazi crimes, as the reason of the crimes was different.

Isn't that a topic in itself?

Does the ideology or vengefulness or randomness which allows war crimes alter the moral quality and personal effect on victims and their families?


That said there where still crimes on both sides who served the same purpose, but still comparisons are not helping anyone in understanding history, rather than getting confused.

Maybe the only understanding history offers is that the reasons for brutality and inhumanity are confusing, if one looks for those reasons in political ideology rather than in people's hearts and minds.

Brutality and inhumanity cross all ideologies, races, cultures, and religions. The only common factor is human beings.

Schuultz
03-13-2009, 09:25 AM
Does the ideology or vengefulness or randomness which allows war crimes alter the moral quality and personal effect on victims and their families?


Uuuh, deep. Is it worse to kill in the name of an ideology or out of hunger for power?

That's one for the philosophers :D

Rising Sun*
03-13-2009, 10:06 AM
Uuuh, deep. Is it worse to kill in the name of an ideology or out of hunger for power?

That's one for the philosophers :D

No, it's one for us.

And for every other 'everyman' and 'everywoman'.

We are the people who determine what is moral in the real world. Kant, Hobbes, Hume, et al were no more qualfied than you or I to determine it. They just used bigger words and more obscure concepts.

In the end, does it matter whether you get a bullet in the head from:

1. A mugger.

2. A close relative

3. A crazy random sniper

4. An enemy in battle

5. An Einsatzgruppen

6. A Utah firing squad.


There are obvious differences in the nature of the victim, but is the result any different?

Will you be any happier on the way to your death, or any less dead, in any case?

Schuultz
03-13-2009, 10:27 AM
Well, that depends on the Point of View. For the victim, it is pretty much the same, they're dead, no matter what. They can only hope that they weren't left to suffer for long before they were killed.

From the Point of View of the Killer, I think the Killer out of Ideology feels the least guilty, as he did it for what he considers a non-selfish reason, he did it for a bigger idea. The only one that might feel less guilty is the crazy sniper, but that's because he's crazy. :mrgreen:

A (mentally healthy) killer out of greed/need is probably going to feel quite guilty for what he committed, even though he is going to try to comfort himself by saying that he needed to/by looking at his loot.

A related killer, I assume, killed out of a very personal feeling, such as rage. This person, in my opinion, is generally going to feel the most guilty, as strong feelings tend to diminish with time, leaving only regret and guilt.

A firing squad is obviously going to feel some guilt, too, but in the end they (usually) did it in the name of law, or at the order of a superior officer. They might have thoughts such as 'I should've said no' or 'Why didn't I aim next to him', but in the end, they usually did it for a reason. (Keep in mind that I exclude the firing squads that killed Jews, etc, in WW2 from this, they would be more likely to be Ideology Killers)

So, if I had to weigh in these murderers from an educated outside perspective, that neither supports Ideological killings (As the Nazis and Muslims do) nor declines them (As the modern Western world does), I'd probably list them like this, starting with the worst:

Killer out of Greed (Mugger, Robber, Political Murderer, etc)
Killer for personal reasons (Anger, Broken Heart, etc)
Killer out of Ideology (Honor-Killings, Killing in the name of a belief)
Killer out of Psychological reasons (Mental problems, etc)
Killer in the name of Law (Firing Squad, Executioner)
Killer in a battle (Soldier vs Soldier)

freyir_33
03-13-2009, 10:47 AM
Does this mean that a comparison between the murders of SS einsatzgruppen in white Russia and the sporadic killing of German prisoners by the Americans is something that
is helping os drawing any fair conclusions out of history?, I don't think so.

Schuultz
03-13-2009, 11:00 AM
Where exactly in my post did you get that from??

While the SS Einsatztruppen were used for Ideological Murder, the soldiers who killed POWs did so out of anger, two very different things...

Nickdfresh
03-13-2009, 11:56 AM
Does this mean that a comparison between the murders of SS einsatzgruppen in white Russia and the sporadic killing of German prisoners by the Americans is something that
is helping os drawing any fair conclusions out of history?, I don't think so.

The "sporadic killings" of Germans by Americans was not sanctioned under any orders with the possible exception of references made by some generals towards German snipers. There are instances where US troops massacred smallish numbers of Germans and Italians and were court martialed for it....

I'm not apologizing for some of the things that a few American bastards did in the War, but comparing the ad hoc atrocities convicted by a few who knew full well it was illegal to a unit specifically earmarked to massacre unarmed, secured civilians and political officials is pretty ****ing silly...

Panzerknacker
03-13-2009, 04:46 PM
To the chav: Starting from the point that we can criticize our goverment without being shot I will say yes, compared with russia Argentina is a democratic paradise.
Germany had thousand more desapeared people than Argentina in the 1933-45 periosd and russian Millions in the same period, so I dont know why you make so much fuss about it.

Chevan
03-14-2009, 01:51 AM
To the PuK.

Starting from the point that we can criticize our goverment without being shot I will say yes, compared with russia Argentina is a democratic paradise.
Indeed we might to criticize everyone and everybody since 1991 and we have a legal opposition, who ( you will not believe) still alive and active , unlike those 20 000 of your's in Agrentine.
As for "democratic paradise" - yes actualy the semi-dictarorship govenments ( espesially in Latin america) like to portray their second-hand country as sort of "paradise" ( Agrentine, Brasil, Chili ets) compared not Just to Russia but even rest of world , including Britain:)
Just like your semi-educated junta try to present collapsed Agrentime as "paradise" for Falklanders;) only 20 years ago.
And still try to do..


Germany had thousand more desapeared people than Argentina in the 1933-45 periosd and russian Millions in the same period, so I dont know why you make so much fuss about it.
Just for your general educational purposes:)
Coz you obviously didn't know that GErmansy , Russia and rest of Europe survived the 2 Total wars in past centure plus Russian survived bloddy Civil war.
Unlike the Argentine , that survived ONLY the frustration of their OWN govenment in that centure.

Chevan
03-14-2009, 02:10 AM
The "sporadic killings" of Germans by Americans was not sanctioned under any orders with the possible exception of references made by some generals towards German snipers. There are instances where US troops massacred smallish numbers of Germans and Italians and were court martialed for it....

I think the "sporadic killing" wan indeed sucntioned in many cases, by low-rank officers.
Say we know for sure that Malmedy massacre wasn't sporadic , it's has been relaised by the SS-officer order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre_trial
Also i don't think that Dahau massacre of SS-guard was sporadic.In fact it was organized by American officer.See the report.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_massacre#United_States_Army_investigation
In fact the most of such a cases, the ordinary soldiers would not commit such a large scale crimes without the special order.

Nickdfresh
03-14-2009, 09:02 AM
I think the "sporadic killing" wan indeed sucntioned in many cases, by low-rank officers.
Say we know for sure that Malmedy massacre wasn't sporadic , it's has been relaised by the SS-officer order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmedy_massacre_trial

The massacre itself is still somewhat of a mystery as to where the orders originated and exactly why it was carried out. The SS said the Americans were trying to escape. The US conjecture was that the Germans (SS) were "trying to send the message" that American units that resisted would be given no quarter. Even after they surrendered. But the testimony of the three survivors (which included a man who went on to act in Hollywood, but I can't recall his name) generally believed it to be entirely premeditated and not something that turned from a prisoner escape into an accidental massacre. The German/Romanian SS members bayoneting the survivors shows this...

Incidentally, Seth Dietrich and the prognosticators of the massacre were all released after the War as an internal US Army investigation found that the Counterintelligence Corp used illegal methods of interrogation (i.e. torture)...


Also i don't think that Dahau massacre of SS-guard was sporadic.In fact it was organized by American officer.See the report.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_massacre#United_States_Army_investigation
In fact the most of such a cases, the ordinary soldiers would not commit such a large scale crimes without the special order.

A lieutenant that formed an ad hoc execution squad after wandering into a death camp wasn't "sporadic?" Well, what qualifies as "sporadic?" The killings (which amounted to a total of 17 out of hundreds of potential SS victims because individual soldiers refused to fire into the crowd). I think it fits the exact definition of a "crime of passion." There's a thread where all this is posted. But it seems some wish to perpetuate the myth that this was a wide scale mass-killing of hundreds of the poor SS concentration camp guards..

And incidentally, the shooting was stopped by the battalion commander, a lieutenant colonel, if memory serves correct - it was hardly officially sanctioned...

Schuultz
03-14-2009, 10:43 AM
Quick question: What happened to the Officer that 'organized' the shooting of the PoWs?

Nickdfresh
03-14-2009, 12:12 PM
Quick question: What happened to the Officer that 'organized' the shooting of the PoWs?


I'm not sure, I'll dig out the thread. I believe pretty much nothing happened to him....

I mean, with the context of piles of fetid corpses neatly placed around the camp and in boxcars, I think it would have been difficult for the US Army to charge him...

Edit: The thread is here. (http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3671)

Upon review of the Boston Globe article from 2001, the men were charged with murder, but Gen. Patton ordered the charges dropped because of the circumstances of the death camp...


But men like General George S. Patton did not believe that. Patton dismissed the murder charges with a flourish, tossing all of the investigative files into a trash can and telling the accused men to go home and get on with their lives, according to two officers interviewed by The Boston Globe.

frtychrs
03-14-2009, 06:58 PM
The Jappanese could and should take notes here about comming clean whit your countries ugly past.