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Byron
02-25-2009, 05:49 PM
I'm looking for detailed OOBs for this battle. I know the following:

British:

11th Hussars (armoured car regiment)
2nd Royal Gloucestershire Hussars
3rd County of London Yeomanry
4th County of London Yeomanry
All of the three above cruiser equipped (should all be Crusader, 158 in total) yeomanry tank regiments in their first action ever.
8x 25pdr from 4th Royal Horse Artillery
1x Infantry Company from 1st Kings Royal Rifle Corps
AT detachment (no unit information, probably a battery from 102nd Royal Horse Artillery)
Light AA detachment (no unit information, probably a battery or troop from 1st LAA Rgt RA)
Detachment 4th Field Squadron Royal Engineers

Italian:

146 M13/40 AFV
7th Bersaglieri Battalion
132nd Artillery Regiment (2 Group)

I'm looking for more details: What kind of guns and how many did the Italians have? What type of armored cars did the British use during this battle? Were there other infantry battalions on the Italian side? If so, how were they outfitted? Were there Italian "light" tanks (such as the CV33) present? If so, how many?

I appreciate any help!

Panzerknacker
02-26-2009, 06:17 PM
Probably you will find out more here:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4443

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4601

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4054

Byron
02-27-2009, 10:53 AM
Thanks, I'm familiar with Italian weapons. I'm looking for specific units for this battle.

MauroG
03-27-2009, 10:14 AM
Hi Byron,

I had a look to a few references I have. More or less they match what you wrote. I am providing here some further details that hopefully could be of some interest to you. I put in parenthesis the references I got the info from, the list is at the end of this text.

First of all, please notice that in Italian texts the place name is referred as “Bir el-Gobi” instead of “Bir el Gubi”. This may turn helpful if you plan further research.

As for Bersaglieri, I noticed that a 8th regiment is mentioned as part of the Ariete division, but I did not find any mention to a 7th battalion.

The 8th Bersaglieri Regiment had about 30 47/32 AT guns and a unclear number of 81mm mortars (1).
The 132nd Artillery Regiment was equipped with about 30 75/27 guns (1) and a unclear number of 20mm automatic cannons. Just few weeks before the battle, a batch of at least 200 new type “EP” A/T rounds was provided to the division (2), likely for the 75/27. (EP=effetto pronto, i.e. quick/ready effect as Italians named their first generation of hollow-charge grenades.)

Ariete had 3 battalions of “carri M” (M13 tanks) as well as 3 battalions of “carri L” (L3 tanks), the latter being relegated to minor or second-line duties (2). No L tanks are mentioned in any report of this fighting I happened to read. All Italian tanks involved should be M13/40, a few of them in the “Carro comando” version.

A section of 7 self-propelled 102/35 naval guns from MILMART (MILizia MARittima Territoriale, i.e. coastal artillery) was aggregated to the CAM (Corpo d’Armata di Manovra – Maneuvering Army Corps), which the Ariete belonged to. Of these guns 5 were assigned to the Ariete (2) and were present at Bir el-Gobi, all of them mounted on FIAT 634 trucks.
A reference (3) states that in the fighting some of these weapons started fire at 1000mt distance from targets with effective results.

Another reference (4) mentions a battalion of 105mm guns of the 4th Artillery group from the CAM, but this does not result in other publications.

Regards,

Mauro

References:
(1) Storia Militare n. 83 (August 2000), “Carri M in Africa settentrionale, parte II” by L. Landi and D. Guglielmi
(2) Storia Militare n. 136 (January 2005), “L’Ariete a Bir el-Gobi” by A. Maraziti
(3) “Le artiglierie del Regio Esercito” by F. Cappellano
(4) Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts by Ian W. Walker

DavidW
03-27-2009, 07:43 PM
Byron.

To answer your specific questions.


What kind of guns and how many did the Italians have?
II Gruppo 132 Art Reg had 12x 75/27.


What type of armored cars did the British use during this battle?
11th Hussars were using Marmon Herrington MkII during Crudaser.


Were there other infantry battalions on the Italian side? If so, how were they outfitted?
I'm sorry, I don't know.



Were there Italian "light" tanks (such as the CV33) present? If so, how many?
I was not aware that any significant numbers of L3 from Ariete's three "L" Battaglione had lasted until Crusader. Perhaps MauroG has some more information.

DavidW
03-27-2009, 07:48 PM
MauroG.

You won't find the 7th Battaglione Bersaglieri amongst the 8th Reggimento as it was not part of Ariete.They were an Independente battaglione.

Byron
03-28-2009, 02:19 PM
Thanks guys! Excellent information. Please post more if you find it.