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Lone Ranger
02-06-2009, 04:17 PM
Has anyone ever heard of a gun used by German special forces known as the SDK Carbine? Apparently it may have been a silenced bolt action assasination weapon in 9mm parabellum. Could be a hoax, be interested to hear from any experts.

flamethrowerguy
02-06-2009, 04:45 PM
The only weapon from German armoury that comes into my mind which is halfway matching the description would be the "Kommando-Karabiner".
It used the Sten silencer, only 4 items were produced.

Panzerknacker
02-06-2009, 06:01 PM
I think you are talking about the model GSDK; Gestado SchällDamper Karabiner. Is this one.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1791/sdk1lv8.jpg


It was made by Sauer & Sohn of Suhl, unfortunately I have no data of how many were manufactured of when were employed.

The magazines is an enlenghtened variant of the one use in the P-08, carries 9 rounds of 9mm "nahpatrone".The gun is dismountalbe and its total lenght 750 mm.

It had a "hair" system, german type ( double trigger)

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7881/sdk2jf4.jpg



http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/614/sdkwx5.jpg

Uyraell
02-07-2009, 12:01 AM
Hello Panzerknacker,
Since you seem to have info on unusual weapons, do you have any images of what was, in the Spanish Civil war, called the "Mauser slick", apparently an automatic pistol in .11 calibre that survived in limited numbers and even more limited use in WW2?

My reason for asking is this: years a go a book on pistols suggested this had been the smallest pistol to see use, though pointing out that the Italian Beretta "Lady's Pistol" in 1.77 calibre had been produced in greater numbers, but had not truly seen combat.

In 20-odd years I have yet to see a picture of the Mauser weapon I ask of, nor the ammunition. As to the Beretta, I have seen precisely 2 pictures of the pistol, and none, of the ammunition.

I would be very interested to see pictures of these, and any other unusual weapon you may know of.

Regards, and Many Thanks, Uyraell.

flamethrowerguy
02-07-2009, 07:49 AM
I think you are talking about the model GSDK; Gestado SchällDamper Karabiner. Is this one.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1791/sdk1lv8.jpg


It was made by Sauer & Sohn of Suhl, unfortunately I have no data of how many were manufactured of when were employed.

The magazines is an enlenghtened variant of the one use in the P-08, carries 9 rounds of 9mm "nahpatrone".The gun is dismountalbe and its total lenght 750 mm.

It had a "hair" system, german type ( double trigger)

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7881/sdk2jf4.jpg



http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/614/sdkwx5.jpg

Bummer, never heard of this one.

Panzerknacker
02-07-2009, 06:00 PM
Hello Panzerknacker,
Since you seem to have info on unusual weapons, do you have any images of what was, in the Spanish Civil war, called the "Mauser slick", apparently an automatic pistol in .11 calibre that survived in limited numbers and even more limited use in WW2?



That would be .11 tenths of a inch or 11mm ? I know about a pistol of that calibre ( .11 inch = 2,7 mm) , was german made, but wasnt Mauser. yes I have pictures of that.



My reason for asking is this: years a go a book on pistols suggested this had been the smallest pistol to see use, though pointing out that the Italian Beretta "Lady's Pistol" in 1.77 calibre had been produced in greater numbers, but had not truly seen combat.



Arrrghh... numbers troubles here . Is possible that the pistol would be a .177 caliber and not 1.77 ?

1.77 inches would be a 45 mm bullet....a bit much for a handgun.



Bummer, never heard of this one.


Check the topic "silencers /supressor for small arms" in this section, more info about german silenced guns tehre.

Uyraell
02-08-2009, 02:58 AM
Hello Panzerknacker,
[quote]That would be .11 tenths of a inch or 11mm ? I know about a pistol of that calibre ( .11 inch = 2,7 mm) , was german made, but wasnt Mauser. yes I have pictures of that.[quote/]
Yes,.11 of an inch.very very small, said to have a maximum effective range of only 25 feet, about 8 metres. Also said to be near silent, though it had no silencer/sound suppressor.

And again yes, .177. My sincere apologies for the mistake in typing.

Many Thanks, Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
02-08-2009, 07:24 AM
Okay, the .177 pistol I am sure is: the Charola & Anitua 5mm

http://www.earmi.it/armi/img/Charola%20y%20Anitua.gif

It was made in early XX century by Industria Eibarresa de Armas from Eibar, Spain. It was used in civil even its military value is almost none.

Some measurement of the ammo:

http://www.municion.org/5x18/5x18.gif



The other in .11 cal is definateli the Kolibri cal 2,7 x 9mm, I going to put more of it soon.

Ivaylo
02-08-2009, 09:32 PM
Okay, the .177 pistol I am sure is: the Charola & Anitua 5mm

http://www.earmi.it/armi/img/Charola%20y%20Anitua.gif

It was made in early XX century by Industria Eibarresa de Armas from Eibar, Spain. It was used in civil even its military value is almost none.

Some measurement of the ammo:

http://www.municion.org/5x18/5x18.gif



The other in .11 cal is definateli the Kolibri cal 2,7 x 9mm, I going to put more of it soon.

I think i saw such pistol used by the russians and the polish soldiers in the 20ties or maybe i am mistaken ...

Uyraell
02-09-2009, 02:31 AM
Okay, the .177 pistol I am sure is: the Charola & Anitua 5mm

http://www.earmi.it/armi/img/Charola%20y%20Anitua.gif

It was made in early XX century by Industria Eibarresa de Armas from Eibar, Spain. It was used in civil even its military value is almost none.

Some measurement of the ammo:

http://www.municion.org/5x18/5x18.gif



The other in .11 cal is definateli the Kolibri cal 2,7 x 9mm, I going to put more of it soon.

Many Thanks, Panzerknacker :D
Never seen the.177 weapon before, most interesting.
Now that you mention the name Kolibri ("Hummingbird" if My German is correct) I do recall that name, though had lost the mental association with the pistol, because by the time of my childhood that company had become a manufacturer of cigarette lighters, of which I had two examples.
I look forwards to seeing the info you have.
Again, Many Thanks,
Regards, Uyraell.

Uyraell
02-09-2009, 08:29 AM
I have heard several stories, over the years, from Polish and other eastern European people that a .177 pistol was used by Russian, Polish, and possibly Ukrainian officers. Where I was at a loss was in not knowing the name of the weapon, nor its' appearance, details with which the good Senor Panzerknacker has supplied us, and
for which, Much Thanks, Muchos Gracias (forgive if my Spanish is a shade rusty, I get to use it about once every 10 years, and was never taught it).
Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
02-09-2009, 03:44 PM
I think i saw such pistol used by the russians and the polish soldiers in the 20ties or maybe i am mistaken ...


Probably you are confusing it with teh mauser "Bolo" a 6 shot varinat of the Mauser 1896 Broomhandle, it was very popular in the east.



Muchos Gracias (forgive if my Spanish is a shade rusty, I get to use it about once every 10 years, and was never taught it).
Regards, Uyraell.


Is Muchas gracias, you are welcome, here more about the Kolibri.

http://i41.tinypic.com/jfix47.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ljrzn4.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/6ia2j4.jpg


Characteristics:

Country of Origin:Österreich ( austria)

Manufacturer: Georg Gräbner & Rehberg

Caliber: 2,7x9 or 3x8,3mm centerfire semirimmed

Magazine: 6 cartrigdes detachable.

Barrel: smoothbore, lenght 32mm.

Muzzle velocity : 190 mps.

Aparently it was mostly offered as a women gun, the small caliber and low muzzle velocity made it completely impractical, you cant kill a fly with this.

Schuultz
02-09-2009, 04:01 PM
More than enough for stopping a guy without getting charged with murder, though :D

Panzerknacker
02-09-2009, 04:31 PM
Not sure, my 22 airguns have more power than this.

Schuultz
02-09-2009, 04:41 PM
Ah, wouldn't be sure about that, it sounds to me like they would be close. Also, the pistol is obviously meant for self defense at short ranges, such as a rapist grabbing a girl, girl grabs kolibri, guy loses eye or something like that :D

Panzerknacker
02-09-2009, 04:48 PM
Certainly an eye would be the only vulnerable spot, take in consideration that a standar 4,5mm luftgewehr have about 250-270mps and you definately cannot stop an attack with that, but I guess given the gun and self defense laws in europe it was an option, not the best but better to be completely defenseless.

The kolibri was made since 1914 to 1920.

http://i41.tinypic.com/28k65g2.jpg

RifleMan20
02-09-2009, 10:56 PM
Ah, wouldn't be sure about that, it sounds to me like they would be close. Also, the pistol is obviously meant for self defense at short ranges, such as a rapist grabbing a girl, girl grabs kolibri, guy loses eye or something like that :D


Or guy loses something more important, the girl shoots the ol' family jewels, he will be down for awhile.

tankgeezer
02-10-2009, 12:05 AM
There is also the "Lilliput" pistol, another woman's pistol chambered in 4.5mm. Hitler had one, (no slight to women intended) there was another model chambered in .25 auto.

Panzerknacker
02-10-2009, 09:43 AM
Nice picture, honestly I dont fully understand the reason behind this guns, everything below a .22 is completely ridiculous.

tankgeezer
02-10-2009, 11:46 AM
I agree,these tiny caliber guns have always puzzled me,a heavy coat would trap the bullet, it would need to be up against the skin to do anything. (beyond intimidation) There are plenty of larger bore pistols that are quite small, even the long lived .25 auto is considered by many to be of little to no value in a confrontation.
The .22 L.R. is very effective for social work,(always a favorite with the Mob) being there are so many different types of ammo available, even birdshot. The good old Derringer pistol is the best known hide away gun, large bore, very small,produced in great numbers by Mr. Henry Derringer, and many other makers through the years. I have one by American Derringer Co. of Texas.

Panzerknacker
02-10-2009, 04:41 PM
Love the expression "social work" :mrgreen:

The .25 had its only advantage in conceability, I remember some years ago a guy scaped from a kidnapping killing 2 of its 3 captors with a Star Starlite .25, he had it in a pocket but the criminals never noticed .

Other rarity. The four barrel 7.65mm belt gun, an small series weapon purchased by some SS officers.


http://i43.tinypic.com/2e5tmjm.jpg

tankgeezer
02-10-2009, 05:21 PM
Thats pretty spiffy! I have read about them, the one in the articles was a .32 cal.w/ bronze 2 barrel arrangement, the pics were not so nice as this example though.
Many years ago, (the 50's) a toy company marketed a kids cowboy belt that had a small derringer set into the buckle. If you pushed out your stomach a bit, the pistol would flip out, and send a plastic bullet toward who was in front of the wearer. The bullet was pressed into a spring loaded case, and the action of the hammer striking the case would loose the plastic bit to fly about 3 feet. sold well too.

Uyraell
02-10-2009, 07:10 PM
Probably you are confusing it with teh mauser "Bolo" a 6 shot varinat of the Mauser 1896 Broomhandle, it was very popular in the east.



Is Muchas gracias, you are welcome, here more about the Kolibri.

http://i41.tinypic.com/jfix47.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ljrzn4.jpg

http://i42.tinypic.com/6ia2j4.jpg


Characteristics:

Country of Origin:Österreich ( austria)

Manufacturer: Georg Gräbner & Rehberg

Caliber: 2,7x9 or 3x8,3mm centerfire semirimmed

Magazine: 6 cartrigdes detachable.

Barrel: smoothbore, lenght 32mm.

Muzzle velocity : 190 mps.

Aparently it was mostly offered as a women gun, the small caliber and low muzzle velocity made it completely impractical, you cant kill a fly with this.


Many , Many Thanks, Muchas Gracias, Panzerknacker!:D
Really really Good info!
(Now I want one of the Kolibri's, even though they are illegal in NZ.)
The impracticality is part of why I'd want one for a collection.

Regards, Uyraell.

Uyraell
02-10-2009, 07:31 PM
Nice picture, honestly I dont fully understand the reason behind this guns, everything below a .22 is completely ridiculous.


I agree,these tiny caliber guns have always puzzled me,a heavy coat would trap the bullet, it would need to be up against the skin to do anything. (beyond intimidation) There are plenty of larger bore pistols that are quite small, even the long lived .25 auto is considered by many to be of little to no value in a confrontation.
The .22 L.R. is very effective for social work,(always a favorite with the Mob) being there are so many different types of ammo available, even birdshot. The good old Derringer pistol is the best known hide away gun, large bore, very small,produced in great numbers by Mr. Henry Derringer, and many other makers through the years. I have one by American Derringer Co. of Texas.

My fascination with weapons like this is really an extension of my fascination with the art of technique in their manufacture. That they were able to be designed, produced, manufactured and at times used: smalescale precision engineering, there's the fascination.
As I understand it,there's also a .25 by Tokarev, employed by certain persons of the KGB persuasion, for close range situations.
Tis truly a pleasure to see these though.
Again, Panzerknacker, many many Thanks,
Tankgeezer, Thank you too, for some cool pics.

Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
02-11-2009, 04:42 PM
Many , Many Thanks, Muchas Gracias, Panzerknacker!


Anytime, you welcome.


My fascination with weapons like this is really an extension of my fascination with the art of technique in their manufacture. That they were able to be designed, produced, manufactured and at times used: smalescale precision engineering, there's the fascination.


Well, note that the austrians did not breaked their brains with the kolibri, as it is very difficult to rifle a small diameter bore they simply left the barrel as smoothbore.

Today pistol offers portability and conceability without sacrify caliber, like the Walther TPH.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC1399.JPG

Major Walter Schmidt
02-11-2009, 07:04 PM
For us Japanese, smaller is better, even if its Swiss!
http://www.swissminigun.ch/home.html
http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_sep2006/MiniGun2.jpg

Uyraell
02-12-2009, 07:10 AM
For us Japanese, smaller is better, even if its Swiss!
http://www.swissminigun.ch/home.html
http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_sep2006/MiniGun2.jpg

I have cigarette lighters that size!:D:mrgreen:
Would enjoy having that little item in your posted pic in my collection.

Regards, Uyraell.

Uyraell
02-12-2009, 07:17 AM
Anytime, you welcome.



Well, note that the austrians did not breaked their brains with the kolibri, as it is very difficult to rifle a small diameter bore they simply left the barrel as smoothbore.

Today pistol offers portability and conceability without sacrify caliber, like the Walther TPH.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC1399.JPG

Now, there's a gun I'd like to own :D
Truly a nice item.
In NZ though, no such chance :(
Any defence of oneself is supposed to be by hand until the Policia arrives, usually only after the cup of tea, creamcakes, and siesta have taken place, by which time the person needing their help is usually safely dead or about to be.
Still, all the more reason to know hand-to-hand stuff.

Many Thanks Panzerknacker :)

Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
02-12-2009, 09:58 AM
For us Japanese, smaller is better, even if its Swiss!


I guess that is because some geographical limitations :rolleyes:



Now, there's a gun I'd like to own :D
Truly a nice item.
In NZ though, no such chance :(
Any defence of oneself is supposed to be by hand until the Policia arrives, usually only after the cup of tea, creamcakes, and siesta have taken place, by which time the person needing their help is usually safely dead or about to be.
Still, all the more reason to know hand-to-hand stuff.



Unfortunately it is in that way in most of "occidental" countries but USA. There are some exceptions however, the italian parliament had passesd a law recently wich allowed the armed self defense in home.

In Argentina we got something called "legitimate defense" wich allows the use of firearms in case of life treath situations like an armed robbery.

by the way my favorite .22 is this, for obvious reasons.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Firestorm/Mvc-1017f.jpg


http://www.gunblast.com/Firestorm.htm

Ivaylo
02-12-2009, 11:45 AM
I guess that is because some geographical limitations :rolleyes:



Unfortunately it is in that way in most of "occidental" countries but USA. There are some exceptions however, the italian parliament had passesd a law recently wich allowed the armed self defense in home.

In Argentina we got something called "legitimate defense" wich allows the use of firearms in case of life treath situations like an armed robbery.

by the way my favorite .22 is this, for obvious reasons.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Firestorm/Mvc-1017f.jpg


http://www.gunblast.com/Firestorm.htm


Not only in Italy and in Argentina you have such law , we have the same thing here but only for self defense otherwise you can get from 15 to whole life jail . ;)

Uyraell
02-13-2009, 06:34 AM
I guess that is because some geographical limitations :rolleyes:



Unfortunately it is in that way in most of "occidental" countries but USA. There are some exceptions however, the italian parliament had passesd a law recently wich allowed the armed self defense in home.

In Argentina we got something called "legitimate defense" wich allows the use of firearms in case of life treath situations like an armed robbery.

by the way my favorite .22 is this, for obvious reasons.

http://www.gunblast.com/images/Firestorm/Mvc-1017f.jpg


http://www.gunblast.com/Firestorm.htm




Now, that is a nice piece. Two, for Christmas, please, with ammo and suppressors,:mrgreen:
Thank you, my friend, very nice weapon indeed.:)

Warm Regards, Uyraell.

Uyraell
02-13-2009, 10:09 AM
Not only in Italy and in Argentina you have such law , we have the same thing here but only for self defense otherwise you can get from 15 to whole life jail . ;)

Here, same. Thing is though: actually use that right and you can still be jailed for injuring the person attacking you.:rolleyes::confused:

Tell me how that makes sense?:rolleyes:

Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
02-13-2009, 02:54 PM
Not only in Italy and in Argentina you have such law , we have the same thing here but only for self defense otherwise you can get from 15 to whole life jail


Okay, evidently I do not pretend to know every european country laws. The truth is that in some of the most prominents the right to armed self defense for civilians is to all purposes inexistant. In Spain and England if you defend yourself with a gun you go to jail, simple as that.



Now, that is a nice piece. Two, for Christmas, please, with ammo and suppressors,:mrgreen:
Thank you, my friend, very nice weapon indeed


Interested in supressors ?, here an argentine aficionado showed some Mossad replica silencer emplaced in a Bersa .22lr. Really cute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZWz67pg1pE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_4_pv6OM5M

Uyraell
02-14-2009, 07:16 PM
Very nice clips, Panzerknacker!
Muchas Gracias:)
I'd heard some had been made, it is indeed interesting to see them. From what I am able to discern, very neatly made, too.
One I'd like very much to see, I do not know the technical designation of. A Vietnam veteran friend had seen one, used by an NVA officer.

Recall I mentioned the Tokarev .25 earlier? The suppressor fitted was "a 9-baffle, 'pill-box' silencer". My friend went on to explain that instead of being cylindrical, this particular suppressor, seen from the front, was oval, as in (o) to look at.

Of his own equipment he tells little, but has mentioned the following: Swedish "K" smgs in 10mm, not 9mm, every third weapon fitted with a suppressor, as in Sten special.

Warm Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
02-15-2009, 08:25 AM
I recall it and is quite a quandacy because the Tokarev is a .30 caliber ( 7,62mm)

If was in vietnam there are chances it cold be the chinese type 64.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg151-e.htm

Other similar to it coud be the russian PSM, but again is a 5,45mm ( .218) and not .25.

Uyraell
02-16-2009, 12:20 PM
I recall it and is quite a quandacy because the Tokarev is a .30 caliber ( 7,62mm)

If was in vietnam there are chances it cold be the chinese type 64.

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg151-e.htm

Other similar to it coud be the russian PSM, but again is a 5,45mm ( .218) and not .25.
It may well be, 7.62 mm, I have to admit, I was a little nonplussed because I do not have in my own memory details as to a Tokarev in .25, other than what I've already given, ie: no independent source.
As to the PSM, again likely, for the same reason as above, no independent data.
The Type 64 is one seen by my veteran friend, but he took care to distinguish in his narrative between that and the Russian weapons.
All in all, I'm thinking it has to be one of the Russian pistols, and inclining to believe it the PSM.
At any rate, my warm thanks for the extensive information you have given.
Thank you, Panzerknacker, my friend.

Warm Regards, Uyraell.

Panzerknacker
02-17-2009, 06:08 PM
At any rate, my warm thanks for the extensive information you have given.
Thank you, Panzerknacker, my friend.

Oh, no worries is my pleasure. :)

http://greyfalcon.us/picturesw/w38.jpg