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Ardee
01-16-2009, 03:03 PM
Last night I was flipping channels and saw a few minutes of History Channel quazi-promo of Valkyrie. The segment I saw was touting what care the producers went to in regards to authenticity. In a companion movie clip, they showed Cruise as Col. von Stauffenberg walking around in trousers bearing a broad red strip on the seam.

I'm not a uniform junkie, but wasn't the red stripe reserved for generals?

Anyway, right or wrong, I thought somebody was sooner or later going to start a thread on this film and it's accuracy, so I thought, what the heck...why not get it over with? :rolleyes:

PS - Perhaps I should have posted this in the "Movie" section, but I decided to do it here because it will (I hope) focus on the actual *historical* accuracy of the German forces portrayed. If I erred, feel free to re-locate.... :)

Schuultz
01-16-2009, 03:21 PM
Last night I was flipping channels and saw a few minutes of History Channel quazi-promo of Valkyrie. The segment I saw was touting what care the producers went to in regards to authenticity. In a companion movie clip, they showed Cruise as Col. von Stauffenberg walking around in trousers bearing a broad red strip on the seam.

I'm not a uniform junkie, but wasn't the red stripe reserved for generals?

Anyway, right or wrong, I thought somebody was sooner or later going to start a thread on this film and it's accuracy, so I thought, what the heck...why not get it over with? :rolleyes:

PS - Perhaps I should have posted this in the "Movie" section, but I decided to do it here because it will (I hope) focus on the actual *historical* accuracy of the German forces portrayed. If I erred, feel free to re-locate.... :)

I'm pretty sure that the Red Stripes were for Officers, not only Generals, but I could be wrong...

jcompton
01-16-2009, 03:24 PM
Ardee I think your right.. red stripe was reserved for Generals and Field Marshals.

Nickdfresh
01-16-2009, 03:47 PM
I dunno, could it be the Red Stripe was for position as well as rank?

I think he was higher up than his status as a colonel would indicate. Wasn't he the adjutant of the Reserve Army?

As far as vehicles and equipment, the short North Africa sequence looked pretty authentic with a large spread of half tracks, what looked to be a Panzer Mark IV (possibly a mocked up one though), some armored cars and Kübelwagens --other than the fact that the vehicles were grouped too closely together made obvious by what takes place in that scene-- it did look at least superficially authentic. But I guess they wanted to get as much proverbially "in the shot" as they could.

One thing I did notice was that most, if not all, of the officers had Walther PPK sidearms. I would guess that the P-38 would have been more prevalent, but I'm far from up on that sort of thing...

Also, the sequences of the Reserve Army battalion looked good and even authentic in a general sort of way. But I wonder if the uniforms seemed a bit dated with the tighter fitting early WWII designs, but since they were primarily garrison troops, this may well be correct. They also had the typical Mauser rifles and MP-40 submachine guns, but I would also think that at least a few of the other numerous weapon designs might have filtered down by the middle of 1944 and it may have looked a bit more hodgepodge with the situation beginning to deteriorate? Then again, I recently saw "Downfall" for the first time and a lot of the Heer/SS soldiers (almost a majority) carried the MP-44 in it, in fact maybe it was just a little more prevalent than I would think it actually was...

flamethrowerguy
01-16-2009, 04:25 PM
The red stripes on the trousers are worn by generals and general staff members.

Panzerknacker
01-16-2009, 04:33 PM
The red stripes on the trousers are worn by generals and general staff members.


Dont forget the cossacks hilfwillingers, they used red striped pants too :mrgreen:

Terry_214
01-17-2009, 07:27 AM
So was Col. von Stauffenberg a memeber of the General staff in his role as Adj to the Resevre Army?

flamethrowerguy
01-17-2009, 11:31 AM
So was Col. von Stauffenberg a memeber of the General staff in his role as Adj to the Resevre Army?

Actually he was the chief of staff.

Terry_214
01-17-2009, 02:19 PM
So he could quite correctly wear the red stripe on his trousers.

Thanks FTG

RicemanCDN
01-17-2009, 04:40 PM
Last night I was flipping channels and saw a few minutes of History Channel quazi-promo of Valkyrie. The segment I saw was touting what care the producers went to in regards to authenticity. In a companion movie clip, they showed Cruise as Col. von Stauffenberg walking around in trousers bearing a broad red strip on the seam.

I'm not a uniform junkie, but wasn't the red stripe reserved for generals?

Anyway, right or wrong, I thought somebody was sooner or later going to start a thread on this film and it's accuracy, so I thought, what the heck...why not get it over with? :rolleyes:

PS - Perhaps I should have posted this in the "Movie" section, but I decided to do it here because it will (I hope) focus on the actual *historical* accuracy of the German forces portrayed. If I erred, feel free to re-locate.... :)

Well i happened to go and see taht movie and i noticed the whole thing with all the officers carrying Walther PPKs or a weapon similar but i always read in books officers would carry lugers or P38s . if anyone could give me anything on this it would be appreciated.:)

flamethrowerguy
01-17-2009, 08:58 PM
This should indeed have been the Walther PP or PPK. It was quiet popular with staff officers or officers not to serve on the front line. Actually these pistols were purchased privately by the officers.
Front officers usually used the Pistole 08 (or "Luger" as it's called internationally), less frequently the P38.

flamethrowerguy
01-18-2009, 06:52 PM
Just for the sake of completeness. German General Staff officer's uniform (Lieutenant Colonel):

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/69322-2/DS1981_103_1%23 (http://www.ww2incolor.com/modern/DS1981_103_1%23.html)

Carl Schwamberger
01-18-2009, 07:58 PM
Nothings ever complete :D

The top junior officers, usually senior captains, were chosen to attend the General Staff school. Selection to attend and completion of that school was extremly prestigious & those officers went to the key staff jobs at corps and army level. They came to dominate the Generals ranks as well.

Schuultz
01-18-2009, 08:43 PM
Just for the sake of completeness. German General Staff officer's uniform (Lieutenant Colonel):

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/69322-2/DS1981_103_1%23 (http://www.ww2incolor.com/modern/DS1981_103_1%23.html)

Well, there's the hat missing. So much for completion...;)

:mrgreen:

Ardee
01-20-2009, 04:04 PM
Interesting feedback! And thanks for the explanation, FTG. I haven't seen the movie yet. I am having a little trouble envisioning Tom Cruise playing the lead. Does it carry it off? Opps -- guessing I'm getting off my original theme of accuracy there.:oops:

Omar Bradley
01-20-2009, 10:27 PM
In this photo (Hitler at the Wolfschanze, July 15, 1944, Stauffenberg -left- Field Marshal Kietel -right) from The Unmaking Of Aldolf Hitler ~ Eugene Davidison, Stauffenberg looks a lot like Cruise.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l278/kdl2525/01-14-2009081512AM-1.jpg


I saw Valkyrie last Thursday. Not sure what references the screen writers used but it was right out of William L Shirer's The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich except for four unimportant scenes that I noticed.

1. When Stauffenberg armed the bomb it was in the anteroom of Keitel's quarters after returning there to retrieve his hat and belt while heading to the fateful meeting. Not while changing his shirt in meeting building.

2. In the scene where Beck shoots himself after the conspirators were rounded up by Fromm he actually only wounded himself and failed again after a second attempt and the coup de grace was administered by a sergeant.

3. It wasn't von Tresckow whom went to retrieve the failed bomb from Brandt, it was an officer from his staff, Schlabrendorff.

4. I'm thinking...I know there was one more.

Something to think about: It was Brandt whom Tresckow got to carry the failed bomb onto the plane and Brandt, again, whom moved Stauffenberg's briefcase to the other side of the large oak table leg after Stauffenberg asked him to watch it while he pretended to take a phone call. It was the moving of the briefcase to the other side of the table leg that saved Hitler from the blast and killed Brandt.

It is estimated that almost 5000 people were arrested after the July 20 plot. And it was piano wire and meat hooks that dispatched most of them.

hansalbin
01-25-2009, 07:11 PM
Graduates of the General Staff College were allowed to wear the red stripes once they made major. You could still be a graduate and serve as a GSO but had to wait until becoming a major to put them on. Was looked on as a matter of pride to wear them.

Moreheaddriller
01-25-2009, 07:40 PM
i saw it last week and most everything seemed accurate some scences were off but only minor stuff

Napalm
01-28-2009, 02:37 PM
Somebody mentioned this on another forum and its a purple stripe on the trousers...and I can't remember the explanation but it is accurate apparently.

Napalm
01-28-2009, 03:13 PM
Somebody mentioned this on another forum and its a purple stripe on the trousers...and I can't remember the explanation but it is accurate apparently.
Found the explanation:
General staff officers were entitled to pants with purple stripes. Stauffenburg was appointed chief of staff Home army and wore those striped trousers as a Colonel, which identified his position (a Commanding Senior officer attached to the General staff)

Uyraell
02-07-2009, 06:27 PM
This should indeed have been the Walther PP or PPK. It was quiet popular with staff officers or officers not to serve on the front line. Actually these pistols were purchased privately by the officers.
Front officers usually used the Pistole 08 (or "Luger" as it's called internationally), less frequently the P38.

I'm given to understand that while the Luger was often worn ceremonially, the Walther P38 was the weapon issued and worn in combat more often, because it was less prone to jamming.
As an aside, I have a book that states officers who had seen combat in the Polish invasion often went to great lengths to obtain the Polish Radom Pistol because it was even better than the Walther P38 and was able to fire any 9mm or .38 ammunition, as was the case with the Spanish Astra copy.
Similarly, the Soviet Makarov copy of the Walther P38 is said to have had the same ammunition versatility as the Radom, though I admit I have never seen independant confirmation of this.
If anything I've said here is inaccurate, please correct it, and forgive, it being I am no expert on pistols, merely familiar with some of them, and their characteristics.
Regards, Uyraell.

SS Tiger
02-07-2009, 09:20 PM
The film I thought was quite good, I did find the array of accents a little odd, Germans speaking with American, British accents etc

The plot was accurate, and just a few minor details had been changed. Overall quite good, I had feared Hollywood would have had Stauffenberg running around the Wolf's Lare with two MP-40s mowing down Hitlers nearest and dearest but nope, just the story as it should be.

Regards, Jack

Schuultz
02-07-2009, 10:25 PM
The film I thought was quite good, I did find the array of accents a little odd, Germans speaking with American, British accents etc

Don't know for sure, but it might be an attempt to showcase the fact that the main characters came from different areas in Germany and therefore spoke quite different German accents.

ptimms
02-08-2009, 03:28 AM
No I believe it was to avoid the fact that the actors poor German would sound just as bad to German speakers. Plus it is Hollywood they don't do sub titles, Homer Simpson complained at a sub-titled film remember.

On the film Obricht comes out very badly. I know he dawdled but was he really the main cause of failure which the film certainly implies.

Y Ddraig Goch
05-22-2009, 09:01 AM
I had feared Hollywood would have had Stauffenberg running around the Wolf's Lare with two MP-40s mowing down Hitlers nearest and dearest

ROTFLMAO couldn't stop laughing at the images i had in my head of Tom Cruise taking out the Wolf's Lair Commando or Rambo style! :lol:

herman2
05-22-2009, 10:16 AM
I bought the video the first week the movie came out . In Toronto we have an asian mall called Pacific mall which carries all the bootlegged videos cause police don't care...anyways, I watched it 6 times. I thought it was Great!
i never knew the attempt to kill Hitler was so planned through. Who says you can't learn froom watching TV!

Deaf Smith
05-22-2009, 11:06 PM
I'm given to understand that while the Luger was often worn ceremonially, the Walther P38 was the weapon issued and worn in combat more often, because it was less prone to jamming.
As an aside, I have a book that states officers who had seen combat in the Polish invasion often went to great lengths to obtain the Polish Radom Pistol because it was even better than the Walther P38 and was able to fire any 9mm or .38 ammunition, as was the case with the Spanish Astra copy.
Similarly, the Soviet Makarov copy of the Walther P38 is said to have had the same ammunition versatility as the Radom, though I admit I have never seen independant confirmation of this.
If anything I've said here is inaccurate, please correct it, and forgive, it being I am no expert on pistols, merely familiar with some of them, and their characteristics.
Regards, Uyraell.

Plenty of troops used P08s at the front. More sensitive to dirt but not all that bad. Plus it has better pointing qualities (I've shot my Uncles.)

I've never heard of the Random being able to use anything but 9x19. If chambered for that it would be impossible to fire 9mm Largo or 9mm Baynard as the 9x19 is, of course, 19mm in length, while the Largo is about 22mm.

The Astra 400 has been said to fire any 9mm (it was made in 9mm Largo) but I've never tried to fire one that way. It should be able shoot .38 Super and 9mm Baynard as they are almost the same diminsion. The Astra 400 is blow back, that is no locking system, works like an .32 or .380 but a very heavy spring is used to compensate. The Astra 600, in 9x19 (9mm Luger) was uses as a substitute weapon for the Luftwaffe. But being in 9x19 it cannot fire any other 9mm.

The P-38 is pure 9x19. It is locked breached and a decent gun. I've shot my friends P-38 and took it appart several times.

The Soviet Makarov is a copy of the PPK in SOME respects. It's also a blow back action. It uses a 9.2x18 cartridge (I own three Makarovs, two Bullgarian and one East German.) The cartridge, while having the same head diameter as the 9x19, does not tapper and is 1mm shorter. It will not take any other round.

Here is a good reference on the different rounds.

http://www.9mmlargo.com/cartridge/largo_vs_others.htm

As for Tom Cruise, in the movie, Valkyrie, I don't think he has any scars on the side of his face where Von Stauffenberg had them on the left side of his face. Oh, well.

Deaf

flamethrowerguy
05-23-2009, 12:41 AM
(I've shot my Uncles.)

Good Lord, how many of them???:shock:

Rising Sun*
05-23-2009, 01:26 AM
Good Lord, how many of them???:shock:

:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

gumalangi
05-23-2009, 01:43 AM
Good Lord, how many of them???:shock:

seconded

btw,. man,. missed the movie,. after the last samurai, .i reject to watch another tom's movie,.

i like the story of stauffenberg and valkyrie,. and afraid the movie would be a turn off for me,.

I will get the DVD

Uyraell
05-23-2009, 08:52 AM
Many Many Thanks, Deaf, I greatly appreciate the info :)

A lot of the information I acquired in my younger years is, of course, relatively outdated now. This is why I added the rider in my post. I feared/suspected the info I had was only partly accurate as to the weapon/cartridge characteristics.

Many Thanks also for the extra link.:)

Kind Regards, Uyraell.

Deaf Smith
05-23-2009, 11:04 PM
Good Lord, how many of them???:shock:

Flame,

Uh, his gun, not him!

I live in Texas. I teach CHL (concealed handgun classes) for fun and profit (computers is my trade, progamming 'em that is.)

I shoot IDPA matches (International Defensive Pistol Association) using Glocks. I'm expert in all classifications (there of 5 types of handguns used, and none of them are 'game' guns. 1911 .45s, 9mm Glocks, Sigs, Smiths, Rugers, HKs, revolvers like the Smith&Wesson M10 and Ruger GP-100s, and the like.)

Just spent some time today at the indoor range practicing with my Glock 26 9mm. They let me draw from concealment, pivots, hip shoot, etc... I love to shoot and have shot many types of matches with rifle as well as handgun. I also reload my on ammunition. 9mm, .38, .45, M1 Carbine, 5.56, 7.62x51, and others like the good old 30/30.

I have a fair wall of gun books, on hunting, combat shooting, and maintenance of them.

Deaf

flamethrowerguy
05-23-2009, 11:13 PM
Your passion/profession is deeply respected, Deaf.

Myself, however, right now I'm waiting for the graveyard shift to end, toting my crappy HK P7 and can't wait to get rid of the darn thing...

Schuultz
05-24-2009, 12:58 AM
You guys are still issued with the P7? One would think they had at least upgraded you to P8/USP :D

flamethrowerguy
05-24-2009, 10:03 AM
You guys are still issued with the P7? One would think they had at least upgraded you to P8/USP :D

Still, yes. We're about to reveive the Walther P99 though but the guns won't be introduced until every attendant is instructed.

Schuultz
05-24-2009, 10:33 AM
I was thinking of getting one of those... but at the moment it looks more like it's going to be either a Colt 1911 or a P38 :D

flamethrowerguy
05-24-2009, 03:34 PM
I was thinking of getting one of those... but at the moment it looks more like it's going to be either a Colt 1911 or a P38 :D

I'd knew which one to pick.;)

Schuultz
05-24-2009, 03:52 PM
Is that so? :D

Deaf Smith
05-24-2009, 07:03 PM
Your passion/profession is deeply respected, Deaf.

Myself, however, right now I'm waiting for the graveyard shift to end, toting my crappy HK P7 and can't wait to get rid of the darn thing...


People I know like the P7 squeeze cocker alot. I've seen them around here for $800 bucks! I've wanted a P7M8 but well for that price I can get two barely used Glocks!

How hard is it to find a good holster for the P7 for concealment?

And how much practice do you get with it?

Thanks,

Deaf

flamethrowerguy
05-24-2009, 07:18 PM
How hard is it to find a good holster for the P7 for concealment?

I wouldn't know since we're government issued.;)
Also we're bearing the guns unconcealed all the time.


And how much practice do you get with it?

We're committed to do at least three practice sessions per year (pistol and smg that is). However if one wants to he's free to shoot every friday and waste some tax payers' money.

Schuultz
05-25-2009, 12:50 AM
We're committed to do at least three practice sessions per year (pistol and smg that is). However if one wants to he's free to shoot every friday and waste some tax payers' money.

Dude... You guys don't happen to be taken apprenticeships anytime soon, are you? :D

But then again, I wouldn't want to be on the same range with anybody who only carries his gun for his job. I remember how, back in Germany, everybody ran for cover whenever the Securitas guys came on the range :mrgreen:

flamethrowerguy
05-25-2009, 01:04 AM
Dude... You guys don't happen to be taken apprenticeships anytime soon, are you? :D

We do actually. But I'm afraid you're not allowed yet due to your age...;)


But then again, I wouldn't want to be on the same range with anybody who only carries his gun for his job. I remember how, back in Germany, everybody ran for cover whenever the Securitas guys came on the range :mrgreen:

Please, no comparisons with private security thugs.:evil:
Besides, no accidents on our shooting range so far!

Schuultz
05-25-2009, 01:23 AM
We do actually. But I'm afraid you're not allowed yet due to your age...;)

Is that so? How old do you have to be?!


Please, no comparisons with private security thugs.:evil:
Besides, no accidents on our shooting range so far!

I'm just saying, people who have to carry their rifles only because it is required from their job sometimes tend to be... let's say insufficient shots...

Frankly, even going by some of the cops I've seen shooting, the safest place when you run away has to be in a straight line in front of them :mrgreen:

navyson
05-25-2009, 09:28 AM
Please, no comparisons with private security thugs.:evil:

Ha-ha! Good one!:)

Rising Sun*
05-25-2009, 09:40 AM
Frankly, even going by some of the cops I've seen shooting, the safest place when you run away has to be in a straight line in front of them :mrgreen:

They're even worse when they're using capsicum spray / foam.

Common clauses in a cop's statement after even a fairly modest bit of biffo state that after the action the cop was either washing out another cop's eyes or having his / her eyes washed out by another cop. Meanwhile the spray / foam doesn't always do anything to the offender.

A brilliant weapon, that does more harm to one's own side than to the enemy!

flamethrowerguy
05-25-2009, 09:53 AM
Is that so? How old do you have to be?!

21. However I wouldn't advise anyone of that age to pick the job.

Schuultz
05-25-2009, 12:29 PM
Yeah, I highly doubt that my temper would be sufficient for that job anyway.
Considering the verbal abuse you guys are (according to the movies) exposed to constantly, sooner or later one of the inmates would probably end up with my pistol to his temple... :D

Deaf Smith
05-25-2009, 10:48 PM
We're committed to do at least three practice sessions per year (pistol and smg that is). However if one wants to he's free to shoot every friday and waste some tax payers' money.

Staying alive is not a waste of tax payers' money. Practice often flame. Practice realistly. Get quite good with your P7 with eather hand. Ammo is cheep, your life isn't (at least to you.)

Deaf

...---...2
05-28-2009, 11:23 AM
I jsut bought Valkyrie the other day. The special features are great and the movie itself is amazing in my mind. Just kind of wondering what everyone else thought about it?

...---...2
05-28-2009, 12:23 PM
did you guys know that they shot the firing squad scenes at Bendlerblock the exact place where the real firing squads killed Stauffenberg and his allies originally?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJl5She8VnI&feature=PlayList&p=2541E8D2FD2FF37A&index=0&playnext=1

doc_holliday
06-02-2009, 12:29 PM
Thought this movie was really well done...picked up the Blu-Ray off Amazon already.

Cruise is really good in the role, I thought, and the rest of the cast, made up of some of the best British actors working these days, was top-notch as well.

Majorimstab
01-07-2012, 11:22 AM
Greetings-
Generals and above in the Wehrmacht wore "hochrot" --a bright scarlet red--as their distinctive waffenfarbe/piping color (same as the artillery red). Generals wore two stripes (about 1" wide) down the length of the trousers or breeches, which flanked a narrow strip of seam binding in the same color (so three stripes actually). This stripe configuration was called "lampassen"
Qualified officers from the General Staff (those who had completed the Staff Academy) wore Lampassen stripes as well, but their distinctive color was Carmine--which has more of a blue tone than the bright red of the Generals. All their insignia--on collar and shoulder--would have this distinctive shade of red.
Hope this clears things up a bit,
Cheers,
JJV