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Nickdfresh
01-12-2009, 06:05 PM
http://media.buffalonews.com/smedia/2009/01/12/15/Poland_Germany_WWII_Remains.sff.standalone.prod_af filiate.50.jpg
In this Jan. 7, 2009 file photo, human remains are seen after they were unearthed by construction workers in Malbork, northern Poland. Construction workers in northern Poland have unearthed a World War II-era mass grave containing what are believed to be the bodies of 1,800 German men, women and children who disappeared during the Soviet Army's march to Berlin.
AP Photo

Updated: 01/12/09 03:10 PM
Poland: Workers find WWII mass grave of Germans
By MONIKA SCISLOWSKA
Associated Press Writer

Construction workers in northern Poland have unearthed a World War II-era mass grave containing what are believed to be the bodies of 1,800 German men, women and children who disappeared during the Soviet Army's march to Berlin.

Poles digging at the site of a planned luxury hotel in Malbork - which was called Marienburg and was part of Germany during the war - excavated a bomb crater at the foot of the city's famous 13th century Teutonic Knights fortress, authorities said Monday.

The workers found a small group of bodies in late October and halted digging to allow prosecutors to investigate. After resuming work weeks later, the workers turned up dozens, and then hundreds, more corpses. They believe more may be found.

It was not immediately clear how the bodies ended up in the crater but initial examinations by Polish and German experts have concluded that they are likely the remains of German citizens still classified as "missing" more than 60 years after the end of the war, town official Piotr Szwedowski told The Associated Press.

Millions of civilians were killed or declared missing during World War II. Many of those who disappeared in the chaos of wartime Europe are still unaccounted for.

"Examination of the remains and the circumstances confirm that these are the missing German inhabitants of Malbork," Szwedowski said. "I have no doubt it is them."

As the Red Army was advancing in early 1945, the inhabitants of Malbork were ordered to evacuate. Some refused, while others were prevented from doing so by the general chaos of the nearing front.

The Soviets bombarded the city with heavy artillery in their assault. After the defeated German military retreated, the remaining civilians found themselves at the mercy of Red Army troops. There are no known living witnesses of what happened, Szwedowski said.

The bodies were buried naked without any possessions, he said.

"We found no trace of any clothes, shoes, belts, glasses - not even dentures or false teeth," he said.

Some 100 skulls - primarily of adults - have bullet holes in them, suggesting these people could have been executed, but it is still unclear how the others were killed, Szwedowski said.

"We don't know if these (civilians) are direct or indirect victims of the artillery barrage but the bullet holes suggest executions in some cases," he said.

More forensic tests will be carried out before the remains are laid to rest either in Malbork or a German military cemetery in Stary Czarnow, near the northwestern city of Szczecin.

"These people died in such an inhuman way, were dumped so inhumanely, that we need to bury them in dignity and respect," Szwedowski said.




BuffaloNews.com (http://www.buffalonews.com/nationalworld/international/story/546969.html)

flamethrowerguy
01-12-2009, 06:51 PM
This has been all over the papers here last week. "Polskaweb.eu" assumes that these people were not killed during the fightings or executed by the Red Army but that polish Militia was responsible.
There has been a commotion in Germany when published that Polish authorities did not react for some time after the first skeletons were found, nobody cared about "desecrations and private excavations of souvenir hunters".

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermischtes/2009/01/08/massengrab/skelette-marienburg-11193185-quer,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height= 349.jpg

The location of Malbork (german "Marienburg" till 1945):
http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermischtes/2009/01/08/massengrab/11202447__berlin-danzig-marienburg__MBQF-1231422653,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,h eight=349.jpg

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/vermischtes/2009/01/07/1800-tote/deutsches-massengrab-in-polen-entdeckt.html

Schuultz
01-12-2009, 07:51 PM
Don't know if Bild is the best source, FTG...

flamethrowerguy
01-12-2009, 07:59 PM
Don't know if Bild is the best source, FTG...

It isn't for sure. However concerning my post it's just the source for the pictures.

namvet
01-12-2009, 08:20 PM
I just now saw the article on fox news. as new constrution takes place they'll find more no doubt

Centurion
01-12-2009, 09:39 PM
How many more are still to be found ?

Kovalski
01-13-2009, 01:13 AM
According to the Red Cross, about 4800 former citizens of Marienburg (Malbork) were missing after the end of war (their fate remained unknown).

I found some info (from November 2008) about the mass graves of German soldiers at Hel Peninsula. First, when exhumation started, the number of bodies was about 160. After few weeks the authorities announced that there may be more than 700 soldiers buried. It would be the biggest German war grave ever found in Poland.

Update:
By fall 2008 they found 1018 bodies. The exhumations will be continued in 2009.

Chevan
01-13-2009, 01:51 AM
The Soviets bombarded the city with heavy artillery in their assault. After the defeated German military retreated, the remaining civilians found themselves at the mercy of Red Army troops. There are no known living witnesses of what happened, Szwedowski said.


This has been all over the papers here last week. "Polskaweb.eu" assumes that these people were not killed during the fightings or executed by the Red Army but that polish Militia was responsible.

It was occured probaly during the post-war ethnical cleansing of Polish territory out from Ethnical Germans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Pre-Potsdam_deportations_.28May_-_July_1945.29
Many peoples died or even were killed.And nobody cared to bury bodies in separate graves.

Kovalski
01-13-2009, 03:53 PM
It seems that the number of missing citizens of Marienburg is lower.
According to the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegs gräber fürsorge, the number of the missing was estimated at 1840 (they have a full list of names).
The exhumation led by Mr Wolfgang Dietrich and his german team were supposed to be resumed today.

Egorka
01-14-2009, 05:18 AM
What do we actually know about this?
The only 2 articles I have seen are these:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,600216,00.html
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95LOD4G0&show_article=1

But these 2 are very shallow... End even though Mr.Szwedowski sais: "I have no doubt it is them." I have my concerns... At least the information in the articles does not reveal anything at all...

Are there more? I guess there should be more info in German and Polish sources, right?

BTW, speaking of naked victims, what about these:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/dramatic/WW2+einsatz7.html
http://www.ww2incolor.com/dramatic/ww2+mizocz1.html
http://9may.ru/08.03.1942/inform/m3356

Soviet soldiers did commit many barbaric reprasals in Germany. But it whould normally constitute in trowing a grenade in to house or a cellar or such spontaneous and rage like acts. But such methodology as "no trace of any clothes, shoes, belts, glasses—not even dentures or false teeth" is beyond them.

Egorka
01-15-2009, 06:12 AM
Two books about Marienburg in 1945 in German:
http://books.google.de/books?id=1TQxAAAACAAJ&dq=marienburg+1945&lr=
http://books.google.de/books?id=KUSfMgAACAAJ&dq=marienburg+1945&lr=

Have not read them...

Schuultz
01-15-2009, 06:55 AM
Soviet soldiers did commit many barbaric reprasals in Germany. But it whould normally constitute in trowing a grenade in to house or a cellar or such spontaneous and rage like acts. But such methodology as "no trace of any clothes, shoes, belts, glasses—not even dentures or false teeth" is beyond them.

Well, if you go by flamethrowerguy's source, it was not a reprisal act from the Red Army, but rather Polish Militia, which would move it away from reprisal and towards ethnic cleansing.

Ivaylo
01-15-2009, 10:04 AM
Well, if you go by flamethrowerguy's source, it was not a reprisal act from the Red Army, but rather Polish Militia, which would move it away from reprisal and towards ethnic cleansing.

Maybe it will be good if someone translate the text into english as i am not good with deutsch . ;)

Schuultz
01-15-2009, 10:13 AM
Maybe it will be good if someone translate the text into english as i am not good with deutsch . ;)

The link he posted is to a very unreliable and usually very biased German "newspaper". He only used it for the images, he got his information from the link he mentioned above the pictures.

Kovalski
01-15-2009, 04:17 PM
Well, if you go by flamethrowerguy's source, it was not a reprisal act from the Red Army, but rather Polish Militia, which would move it away from reprisal and towards ethnic cleansing.

I wonder how they got to such conclusions.

Any ideas?

Schuultz
01-15-2009, 04:37 PM
I wonder how they got to such conclusions.

Any ideas?

As Egorka said, the Russians didn't typically commit organized Mass Murders, and the sheer size of the grave, coupled with the fact that many had bullet wounds to the back of the head, indicate just that.

And since they were German, it obviously weren't Germans who did it...

This leaves local militia / former partisans / secret government units (conspiracy!!!) as the most likely suspects.

Egorka
01-15-2009, 04:39 PM
I wonder how they got to such conclusions.
Any ideas?
Read this one: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=148025
There is some additional info, including why some people think thar it might be Polish responsibility.

Egorka
01-15-2009, 04:41 PM
As Egorka said, the Russians didn't typically commit organized Mass Murders, and the sheer size of the grave, coupled with the fact that many had bullet wounds to the back of the head, indicate just that.

And since they were German, it obviously weren't Germans who did it...

This leaves local militia / former partisans / secret government units (conspiracy!!!) as the most likely suspects.
As far as I can see, we have so far nothing to conclude anything...

In an article from the 14 of January:
"We hope to find some leads because we still know virtually nothing about the mass grave and the victims, " said Piotr Wojciechowski of the district public prosecutor's office in Malbork (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090114/wl_nm/us_poland_grave_1)

Schuultz
01-15-2009, 04:45 PM
As far as I can see, we have so far nothing to conclude anything...

In an article from the 14 of January:
"We hope to find some leads because we still know virtually nothing about the mass grave and the victims, " said Piotr Wojciechowski of the district public prosecutor's office in Malbork (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090114/wl_nm/us_poland_grave_1)

We have a lot of assumptions, though. ;)

Chevan
01-16-2009, 12:41 AM
I wonder how they got to such conclusions.

Any ideas?
Do you wonder?
Say that the Polish forces/milicia/community didn't commit the mass murdering of Germans?Or somebody else?
I have an idea .
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_east.html



ATROCITIES IN POLAND (Polish Revenge)
Unable to stem the onrush of German forces during the invasion of their country, Polish soldiers and civilians started fleeing eastwards. It was during this flight to the east that the ethnic German civilians, resident in Poland for many years, received the full impact of the spite and hate stored up in the hearts of the fleeing Polish soldiers and their civilian followers. Between September 4 and September 8, 1939, in the communities of Eichdorf, Hopfengarten and Narzheim near Bromberg, the polish soldiers began an orgy of murder and rape that is beyond belief. German houses were entered and the occupants arrested and then murdered. Not all were shot, many were brutally put to death by all sorts of tools and their bodies severely mutilated. As the soldiers left to search for more German houses, their civilian helpers were left behind to plunder and steal and in most cases, to set the house on fire. Many of the German women were raped before being shot. During this retreat from the west, the Polish soldiers, together with the communist civilian irregulars, were responsible for the deaths of many thousands of German residents. At a later investigation, the testimonies of 593 witnesses established the fact that at least 3,841 named ethnic Germans were murdered by the Poles prior to the full German occupation. These revenge murders were carried out as early as April, 1939 in the Polish Corridor. In September, 1939 these Volksdeutsche formed themselves into Self-Protection units known as Selbschutz and came under the control of the SS and later under the Ordungspolizei (Order Police). The infamous reputation that it earned caused it to be disbanded on 30th of November, 1939. These massacres were one of the causes that gave Hitler the excuse to invade.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom
The Jedwabne pogrom (or Jedwabne massacre) was a massacre of Jewish people living in and near the town of Jedwabne in Poland that took place in July 1941 during World War II.

Although responsibility for the massacre had long been laid at the feet of the Nazi Einsatzgruppen (death squad), recent scholarship by historian Jan T. Gross has indicated that the murders were carried out by Polish neighbors of the victims. The Polish Institute of National Remembrance subsequently issued findings in support of Gross' claims.Whether and how far the occupying German forces were involved remains the subject of dispute among historians. According to Gross' Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland, 1,600 Jews lived in Jedwabne before the pogrom, of whom seven survived the incident.

And how did 1 Polish Army treat the GErmans pows


The Polish will of revenge to GErmans was such great - that it getting to bother to take the information from Germans pows.
The CHief of NKVD of 1-belorusshian front Cerov, complained to Beria, that soldiers of 1-Polish Army ( that fought with Red Army) treat the GErmans pows with senseless cruelty. He reported that the cuptured Germans pows very often don't reach the pows camps- the poles simply shoted them all.
For instance in 2-rifle regiment of 1- polish division there were cuptured the 80 germans pows, but ONLY two of them have arrived to the headquarters The rest have been killed in a way.After the cross-examination, they both have been sended to the Army intelligence department for the next talks. But they haven't reached it, they have been shoted right near the hearquarters by poles.
Antony Beevor "Berlin The Downfall 1945".
Chapter 5 :Rush to Oder"

Egorka
01-16-2009, 06:52 AM
What is the address of the grave? You have heard Solna street. According to other sources it is "18 Piastowska street", which is close to Solna street. Here is the 18 Piastovska street on the map. (http://maps.google.dk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=da&geocode=&q=18+Piastowska,+malbork&sll=54.039433,19.031239&sspn=0.004486,0.009656&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16)

As I understand the grave is located on the other side of the street from the point marked as Bismarkstein - monument to Bismark, I guess - app. 180 meters South-Eastwards from the Castle wall (see the map).

http://www.starymalbork.pl/zniszcz/festung/mapa.jpg
http://www.starymalbork.pl/zniszcz/festung/mapa.jpg

Garave today:
http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=162787
http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=162787

kamehouse
01-16-2009, 07:31 AM
And how did 1 Polish Army treat the GErmans pows
in Lawrence Rees' latest Russian archival research"WW2:Behind close doors,Stalin ,the Nazis and the west",it shows that the Polish army that came with the Red Army was in fact Russian soldiers that had to learn polish,change their uniform to Polish ones and pretend they were genuine soldiers for Poland to fool the population.And being in fact an occupation force.
Just wanted to point that out.

Egorka
01-16-2009, 07:38 AM
In fact this is actually the view towards the grave place from the Castle - somewhere right of the road on the middle of the photo.
As I understand the photo is taken by Germans during the Castle seige by Soviets in January 1945.

http://www.starymalbork.pl/zniszcz/festung/fot9.jpg
http://www.starymalbork.pl/zniszcz/festung/fot9.jpg

Chevan
01-16-2009, 08:33 AM
in Lawrence Rees' latest Russian archival research"WW2:Behind close doors,Stalin ,the Nazis and the west",it shows that the Polish army that came with the Red Army was in fact Russian soldiers that had to learn polish,change their uniform to Polish ones and pretend they were genuine soldiers for Poland to fool the population.And being in fact an occupation force.
Just wanted to point that out.
Hmmn really?
So it were utter russians , dressed up to polish Uniform , speaking the Polish ,specialy to commit the crimes over civils. How haven't i guessed.:)
Now see the sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_1st_Tadeusz_Ko%C5%9Bciuszko_Infantry_Divisi on


Polish 1st Tadeusz Kościuszko Infantry Division (Polish: 1 Dywizja Piechoty im. Tadeusza Kościuszki) was the first unit of the new Polish Armed Forces in the East. It was the first division of Polish First Army (Berling Army), part of Ludowe Wojsko Polskie). It was an infantry division, formed in May 1943 in Sielce (near Oka River) under command of general Zygmunt Berling and ready for operations on 15 July 1943. It's first engagement took place in October 1943 at the battle of Lenino. It ended up its combat route with the Battle of Berlin. It was named after a Polish hero, Tadeusz Kościuszko.

In 1955 it was reorganized into 1st Warsaw Mechanized Division (1 Warszawska Dywizja Zmechanizowana).




http://www.wspolnota-polska.org.pl/index.php?id=epb17
The Commander of the Polish Army was Marshall Michał Żymierski.

Commanders of the 1st Army:
- Gen. Zygmunt Berling,
- Gen. Władysław Korczyc,
- Gen. Stanisław Popławski.

Commanders of the 2nd Army:
-[/b] Gen. Karol Świerczewski,
- Gen. Stanisław Popławski.[/b]


What a nice russian Names:)
And look at their Russian faces
http://www.wspolnota-polska.org.pl/img/hist/pb1704.jpg

Schuultz
01-16-2009, 08:48 AM
in Lawrence Rees' latest Russian archival research"WW2:Behind close doors,Stalin ,the Nazis and the west",it shows that the Polish army that came with the Red Army was in fact Russian soldiers that had to learn polish,change their uniform to Polish ones and pretend they were genuine soldiers for Poland to fool the population.And being in fact an occupation force.
Just wanted to point that out.

So wait, the Polish Army that came with the Russians wasn't Polish but Russians acting as Poles? For how long? Were the Poles who aided in capturing Berlin Russians, too? You're confusing me...:(

PS: What evidence does he have, I'd appreciate a link or a book or something.

kamehouse
01-16-2009, 08:50 AM
As I said ,I just learnt this fact not so long ago and wanted to share it.
There were a couple of Russian officers(from the 6th Air division I think) interviewed who claimed there were given orders.
One of them asked about his pretended birthplace(can't remember it sorry) to be answered by his commanding officer not to worry ,the town was razed by the Germans.
Another interesting anecdote from the same Russian officer pretending to be Polish:a Polish woman approached him amd told him what a joy it was to see a Polish officer at last,he politely answered and she seemed to be disappointed.She asked where he came from and if he was from the Ukrainian border.I believe they changed their names also?
Again I am not claiming atrocities were made by Russians,just saying that the only thing the 1st Polish army had to do with Poland was the name and not much else.
If you think it's not true,no need to shoot the messenger just take it with Mr Rees himself.;)

kamehouse
01-16-2009, 08:53 AM
So wait, the Polish Army that came with the Russians wasn't Polish but Russians acting as Poles? For how long? Were the Poles who aided in capturing Berlin Russians, too? You're confusing me...:(

PS: What evidence does he have, I'd appreciate a link or a book or something.
I know ,I was also really surprised by that.
Here's the link to the book and the acclaimed serie made by the BBC:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-War-II-Behind-Closed/dp/0563493356/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232117524&sr=8-5

http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-War-Behind-Closed-Doors/dp/B001EVP842/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

Egorka
01-16-2009, 09:13 AM
I know ,I was also really surprised by that.
Here's the link to the book and the acclaimed serie made by the BBC:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-War-II-Behind-Closed/dp/0563493356/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232117524&sr=8-5

http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-War-Behind-Closed-Doors/dp/B001EVP842/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b
Just use your common sense and think exactly for how long could the Russians speaking Polish with accent fool Polish locals...??????
No really who and how were they trying to fool like that!? ;)

kamehouse
01-16-2009, 09:37 AM
Just use your common sense and think exactly for how long could the Russians speaking Polish with accent fool Polish locals...??????
No really who and how were they trying to fool like that!? ;)Long enough to take over Poland and install a pro-soviet government.
The Serie explains it better than me but I lent the DVD's to a Polish friend so it's all from memory.
I don't think Mr Rees would write a book,made a 6 part serie and lie especially after his two previous opus:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nazis-Warning-History-Samuel-West/dp/B0001MIQ94/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1232119810&sr=1-4

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Auschwitz-Nazis-Solution-Dominic-Sutherland/dp/B0006FNXNA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1232120039&sr=1-2

AS I said to Chevan,please don't shoot the messenger.:oops:
I don't want to start a fight or anything.Anybody else have seen the serie on BBC2?

Schuultz
01-16-2009, 10:31 AM
AS I said to Chevan,please don't shoot the messenger.:oops:


Oh, you're so dead. :mrgreen:

There are a couple of things speaking for it, for example the fact that Russia did in fact invade and occupy eastern Poland before Barbarossa.
So why should they suddenly be all friendly to the Polish Army they fought just two years ago and let them come along with them?

But there are also things that speak against it:
First, the Russian soldiers probably couldn't have fooled the Poles into believing their charade for very long.
Also, there's absolutely no reason for it. The Red Army was all over Poland already, and had more than enough power to choose the next Polish Government. There was no need for a fake Polish Army to support them, too...

Kovalski
01-16-2009, 03:22 PM
There are a couple of things speaking for it, for example the fact that Russia did in fact invade and occupy eastern Poland before Barbarossa.
So why should they suddenly be all friendly to the Polish Army they fought just two years ago and let them come along with them?


Because they needed troops to fight the Nazi Germany?
Because it is always easier to supress a nation with its own army?

I thought such things were obvious...



First, the Russian soldiers probably couldn't have fooled the Poles into believing their charade for very long.
Also, there's absolutely no reason for it. The Red Army was all over Poland already, and had more than enough power to choose the next Polish Government. There was no need for a fake Polish Army to support them, too...

We have a small misunderstanding here.
This army was a gathering of all polish men who were unable to escape from Soviet Union with general Anders to Iran in 1942.
Joining the communist army was their only chance to avoid death from the hands of Soviet butchers.
So in fact that army consisted of Poles, but they were commanded by Soviet officers.
Of course there was a group of polish officers also involved. Some of them agreed to cooperate with Soviets, some of them were not murdered just by the accident.

I can't agree with the thesis that was a "fake" polish army, but it has to be said that it was commanded by the Soviets and was under TOTAL control of Soviet high command.
After the end of war, such an army maybe be very useful for controlling the sattelite state.



As Egorka said, the Russians didn't typically commit organized Mass Murders [...]

Say what??? :)



[...] and the sheer size of the grave, coupled with the fact that many had bullet wounds to the back of the head, indicate just that.

And since they were German, it obviously weren't Germans who did it...

This leaves local militia / former partisans / secret government units (conspiracy!!!) as the most likely suspects.

Basing on the previous ingenious assumption, that is really brilliant conclusion.
Hats off...


Just use your common sense and think exactly for how long could the Russians speaking Polish with accent fool Polish locals...??????
No really who and how were they trying to fool like that!? ;)

Igor, there were much more idiotic and monstrous lies that Soviets tried to make the Poles to believe, so I wouldn't bother myself with this one. ;)

But seriously speaking, probably that guy, mentioned by Kamehouse, was one of the so-called "helpul friends" from the Red Army.

Schuultz
01-16-2009, 03:55 PM
Don't like the way you cut my sentence in half and put them out of context, Kovalski.

What I said was that they didn't do any overly organized mass murders of German civilians. The state the remains of the [presumed] civilians is out of character of what the Soviet Army did during the push forward.

That massacres and murders happened is obvious, I don't try to dispute that.

Kovalski
01-16-2009, 05:43 PM
Don't like the way you cut my sentence in half and put them out of context, Kovalski.

What I said was that they didn't do any overly organized mass murders of German civilians. The state the remains of the [presumed] civilians is out of character of what the Soviet Army did during the push forward.

That massacres and murders happened is obvious, I don't try to dispute that.

I'm sorry mate, I didn't want to upset you.

I just would like to avoid making conclusions when the exhumations and investigation is still in progress. There is too many questions waiting for answers in that case, so it is way too early for finish.

According to the press releases, about a 100 of 1800 skulls have bullet-holes in foreheads. That clearly indicate a war crime. But it is too early point out who is gulity.
There are two groups of suspects: Polish and Soviets. That is obvious.
Because the site is still being examined we may have hope for finding some bullets (if it was a murder-site of course).

But the rest of the bodies have no visible bullet-effected traces. Of course that doesn't exclude other methods of murder. But also doesn't exclude other causes of death, like deseases, low temperature, hunger, etc.
I think we have to wait for a final report from the exhumation team - which consists of Germans led by the German scientist (I seriously doubt in any attempt to cover the evidences).
Unfortunately, I'm fully aware that it may not be possible to discover the truth because of all actions taken by local authorities before the case was widely described in the press.
That deserves the highest condemnation and should be the subject of official investigation.

I'll try to bring all the info which I can find in polish sources available in the internet.
I hope it helps us in the discussion.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Schuultz
01-16-2009, 06:10 PM
I'm sorry mate, I didn't want to upset you.

I just would like to avoid making conclusions when the exhumations and investigation is still in progress. There is too many questions waiting for answers in that case, so it is way too early for finish.

According to the press releases, about a 100 of 1800 skulls have bullet-holes in foreheads. That clearly indicate a war crime. But it is too early point out who is gulity.
There are two groups of suspects: Polish and Soviets. That is obvious.
Because the site is still being examined we may have hope for finding some bullets (if it was a murder-site of course).

But the rest of the bodies have no visible bullet-effected traces. Of course that doesn't exclude other methods of murder. But also doesn't exclude other causes of death, like deseases, low temperature, hunger, etc.
I think we have to wait for a final report from the exhumation team - which consists of Germans led by the German scientist (I seriously doubt in any attempt to cover the evidences).
Unfortunately, I'm fully aware that it may not be possible to discover the truth because of all actions taken by local authorities before the case was widely described in the press.
That deserves the highest condemnation and should be the subject of official investigation.

I'll try to bring all the info which I can find in polish sources available in the internet.
I hope it helps us in the discussion.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Sure is too early for anything conclusive - which is why I simply played detective and looked for motives/compared the patterns. :D

Chevan
01-19-2009, 01:05 AM
We have a small misunderstanding here.
This army was a gathering of all polish men who were unable to escape from Soviet Union with general Anders to Iran in 1942.
Joining the communist army was their only chance to avoid death from the hands of Soviet butchers.
So in fact that army consisted of Poles, but they were commanded by Soviet officers.
Of course there was a group of polish officers also involved. Some of them agreed to cooperate with Soviets, some of them were not murdered just by the accident.

We see the real misunderstanding here Kovalski.
And you add a much of it.
Firstly , this is not true that 1 Polish army was commanded and managed by ..Sovites.
This is nonsense.
All of the Commanders were Poles, check the documents.
Secondary, all of them have VOLUNTARY joined to the Pro-Soviet Polish army.You can't make to fight the officer by ..force.If he is not a trator:) its' well known fact.
The others ,who didn't wish to join to Soviets, VOLUNTARY joined to Army of Anders in 1941-42.
NKVD specially has selected the pro-soviet officers from Polish pows - to form the 1 Polish army.


I can't agree with the thes is that was a "fake" polish army, but it has to be said that it was commanded by the Soviets and was under TOTAL control of Soviet high command.
After the end of war, such an army maybe be very useful for controlling the sattelite state.

Again. It wasn't under TOTAL controll at all.
It was under OPERATIONAL and TACTICAL controll of Soviet 1-belorussian front .Just like the Polish II corp was under full TACTICAL controll of Allied command.

Schuultz
01-19-2009, 08:12 AM
If the 1st Polish Army was under Operational and Tactical control, isn't that pretty much total control?
It's not like they could've just said "**** that, we're not doing this", or something like that. Were they treated any different by the High Command than other Soviet armies?

PS: What movie is that .gif in your sig from, Chevan?

flamethrowerguy
01-19-2009, 09:46 AM
From what I've read on the topic, the commanding officers in the Polish 1st Army were handpicked by the Soviets to make sure they got the right political attitude.

kamehouse
01-19-2009, 11:57 AM
From what I've read on the topic, the commanding officers in the Polish 1st Army were handpicked by the Soviets to make sure they got the right political attitude.
From what I have seen in the serie,Soviet officers were given a new identity and life to portray Polish officers from the so called 1st Polish army.
So to check documents of the time will indeed show Polish names.
Mr Rees based his researches on new documents available in Russia and previously classified.
A bit of a shame I am the only one who watched this on the BBC.
where is PDF27 when I need him?:rolleyes:

Schuultz
01-19-2009, 01:20 PM
where is PDF27 when I need him?
PMs work wonders... ;)

Or better yet, report this thread, and all the Mods will appear. It's better than teleporting!:mrgreen:

Chevan
01-20-2009, 01:42 AM
Mr Rees based his researches on new documents available in Russia and previously classified.
A bit of a shame I am the only one who watched this on the BBC.
where is PDF27 when I need him?:rolleyes:

What are "documents available in Russia and previously classified"?
Show better the link to documents, instead to insist on some point, one have to show the proves.

Chevan
01-20-2009, 02:06 AM
If the 1st Polish Army was under Operational and Tactical control, isn't that pretty much total control?
Not al all.
Say, the 1 polish army or Romanian Army ( that fight with GErmany sicne 1944 too alongside the Red Army) have been subordinated to Soviet headquarters and did have it's one ZONE of Responsibility to attack or to hold by them, according general military plan.
But this is Abslolutly doesn't mean that , say the Soviet officers shall to order them to WHICH enemy soldier to shot or to Kill , right?
As well as the Soviet officers didn't personaly WATCHED for any Polish officer and soldier- if it was, what to hell is such Army needed for?
The SOviet Officers in Polish headquarters were needed for proper Tactical interaction of Polish and Red Army - not for to controll them each minute.And they have done the job very well.
The Polish army fough well and effective, it has been proven in Berlin.
Besides the Polish Army has been fully armed by Soviet wearpon ( including howitzers and Tanks)- the situation needs the Soviet military advisers.
As for Orders- yes Polish soldiers have been subordinated to 1 Beloryussian front command and therefore sometimes HAVE been obligated to carry it out.


It's not like they could've just said "**** that, we're not doing this", or something like that.
exactly sometimes they did so..:)
In that incident that Beevors wrote, the Poles , have strictly violated the Order. They have to take the POWs to headquarts for cross-testing, instaed they just start their OWN vendetta.
So there were the tupical lack of discipline.
As we saw not always the Order of Soviet command was nessesary to execute for Poles:)
So they obviously DIDN'T FEAR the Soviet NKVD officers as much , as peoples usially to believe:)


PS: What movie is that .gif in your sig from, Chevan?
This is from old Soviet film "Osvobogdenie/Liberation" by director Nickolaj Ozerov.

kamehouse
01-20-2009, 03:07 AM
What are "documents available in Russia and previously classified"?
Show better the link to documents, instead to insist on some point, one have to show the proves.
I've posted a thread in the axisforum to see if any members there heard of what Mr Rees is claiming.
I'll let you know what came out of it if you are interested.

Egorka
01-21-2009, 05:53 PM
Spiegel 20.1.2009 : Massengräber in Marienburg (http://einestages.spiegel.de/static/topicalbumbackground/3535/gebeine_im_blechschuppen.html)

Schuultz
01-21-2009, 06:17 PM
All the article says is that they pretty much know nothing so far because the Poles don't call in medical examiners, but that the Russians had already left by the time the massacre must have happened...

Egorka
02-17-2009, 04:31 AM
So wait, the Polish Army that came with the Russians wasn't Polish but Russians acting as Poles? For how long? Were the Poles who aided in capturing Berlin Russians, too? You're confusing me...:(
"the Polish Army that came with the Russians" having high casualties was reinforced with non-Polish soldiers.
Maybe this is the reason for confusion.


http://www.iremember.ru/content/view/535/2/1/6/lang,ru/
В польских подразделениях большие потери. Поэтому, пополняются они русскими солдатами, которых одевают в польскую форму (на голове конфедератки), а понимать польские команды можно научиться в миг. Комиссары (замполиты батальонов) у поляков – сплошь командиры Красной Армии.

Chevan
02-17-2009, 05:40 AM
All the article says is that they pretty much know nothing so far because the Poles don't call in medical examiners, but that the Russians had already left by the time the massacre must have happened...

And what's a problem to organize the medical examination?Are there the pure political problems?
Or the local authorities just delay a time?

Schuultz
02-17-2009, 06:55 AM
I don't know. Maybe the authorities wanted to try to spare Poland the embarrassment. Maybe they wanted to keep the incident as low-profile as possible. Maybe they were incompetent...

herman2
02-17-2009, 09:10 AM
I don't know. Maybe the authorities wanted to try to spare Poland the embarrassment. Maybe they wanted to keep the incident as low-profile as possible. Maybe they were incompetent...

It's simple: If there were any Jews burried there, they would have called in the best medical examiners money could buy; but since it's only Germans, nobody cares, because Germans were the enemy so society doesn't care. Thats what it looks like to me, and I think it stinks!

Schuultz
02-17-2009, 09:16 AM
Also, the Jews would have most likely been murdered by Germans - it's an easy way to keep up nationalistic sentiments by railing against an enemy, and that newly discovered massacre would have been more fodder for their nationalists.

But dead Germans who were most likely killed by Poles?

A-W-K-W-A-R-D

:evil:

Chevan
02-17-2009, 11:52 PM
Also, the Jews would have most likely been murdered by Germans

Without reason you think that Poles can't murder the jews,Schuultz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom


The Jedwabne pogrom (or Jedwabne massacre) was a massacre of Jewish people living in and near the town of Jedwabne in Poland that took place in July 1941 during World War II.

Although responsibility for the massacre had long been laid at the feet of the Nazi Einsatzgruppen (death squad), recent scholarship by historian Jan T. Gross has indicated that the murders were carried out by Polish neighbors of the victims. The Polish Institute of National Remembrance subsequently issued findings in support of Gross' claims

A group of about 40 Jews were forced to demolish a statue of Lenin erected by NKWD and then carry it out of town while singing Soviet songs :). The local rabbi was forced to lead this procession. The group was taken to a pre-emptied barn, killed and buried along with fragments of the monument, while most of the remaining Jews, estimated at around 250 to 400, including many women and children, were led to the same barn later that day, locked inside and burned alive using kerosene from the former Soviet supplies (or German gasoline, by different accounts) in the presence of eight German gendarmes shooting those trying to escape
:evil:
Poles made a cynical fun pretty well. The group of young jews ( teenagers) were forced to sing " the war becouse of us , we are the jews":)
Some researches estimates the number of victims about 1000-1200 for few days.
After the war the Communist polish authorities have hanged that crime to..Germans and few "polish-colloborators". The fact that essential part of population of town was busy in pogrom, authorities hided.

Kovalski
02-18-2009, 12:08 AM
It seems Chevan that Poles and Russians are sometimes very similar to each other:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire
"[...] Many pogroms accompanied the Revolution of 1917 and the ensuing Russian Civil War, an estimated 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews were killed in the atrocities throughout the former Russian Empire [...]"

Kovalski
02-18-2009, 12:16 AM
I don't know. Maybe the authorities wanted to try to spare Poland the embarrassment. Maybe they wanted to keep the incident as low-profile as possible. Maybe they were incompetent...

I'm afraid that the reason of such mean behavior of authorities was more prosaic.
It is only my assumption but I think that local authorities wanted to spare a negative PR to Malbork (Marienburg) as a tourist attraction. Probably, they may have been also somehow involved in the proccess of building of that new 4-star hotel.

Chevan
02-18-2009, 01:18 AM
It seems Chevan that Poles and Russians are sometimes very similar to each other:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire
"[...] Many pogroms accompanied the Revolution of 1917 and the ensuing Russian Civil War, an estimated 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews were killed in the atrocities throughout the former Russian Empire [...]"

True mate.
Poles and Ukrainians ( plus Moldavians) sometimes looks wery simular in their "love" to jews.
The Most fierce pogroms in Fromer Russian Empire did occure exactly in Ukraine.
Local population ctively participated:)
But it ALL IT was just childish plays compater to the Orgy that has happend , when GErmans have arrived to Ukraine in 1941.
http://varjag-2007.livejournal.com/85416.html
See the photo from Archive of Jad Vashem.
The Ukraine "volunteres" murdering the Jews, right on the street.
I think the something simular has happend in Jedwabne , Poland.

Schuultz
02-18-2009, 06:46 AM
Without reason you think that Poles can't murder the jews,Schuultz

I said that they were 'most likely' killed by Germans, partially because Marienburg was German back then, so it would be a lot more likely that the German citizens would be the ones killing Jews in their own streets than Poles coming in from outside and killing Jews.

That's why I said that if they were Jews, it could have been pinned on the Germans.

Comrade Commisar
02-19-2009, 06:53 PM
Darn soviets could have given some people dignity before killing em'
Raped each and everyone of them

There is one occurrence were Soviets in Berlin TOOK TURNS raping a young girl.

Nickdfresh
02-19-2009, 07:48 PM
Darn soviets could have given some people dignity before killing em'
Raped each and everyone of them

There is one occurrence were Soviets in Berlin TOOK TURNS raping a young girl.

Um, did you read the preceding comments?

In any case, the Red Army wasn't the only army that had problems controlling undisciplined soldiers...

I started this thread, and I think that any injustice done to defenseless civilians is horrific and the Germans here WERE the victims here. But let's not forget the justifiable anger of the Soviet soldiers in the Red Army! There were Russian families, and all elasticities really, that were stripped of their winter clothing and thrown out into the winter of sub zero temperatures to die of exposure so German soldiers didn't in 1941 and 42'.

Revenge is certainly not justice nor should anyone defend it. But it is understandable here...

"War is hell." --Tecumseh Sherman

Schuultz
02-19-2009, 08:32 PM
I don't know how true it is, but I thought it was pretty generally assumed that the people who committed these crimes were Poles?

Chevan
02-19-2009, 11:26 PM
I said that they were 'most likely' killed by Germans, partially because Marienburg was German back then, so it would be a lot more likely that the German citizens would be the ones killing Jews in their own streets than Poles coming in from outside and killing Jews.

That's why I said that if they were Jews, it could have been pinned on the Germans.
This is true , but Marienburg wasn't german since jenuary 1945.And last jewish pogrom in Poland was documented in ...1946 .
But joke aside.
BTW what makes us to conclude that ALL the victims in mass grave of Marienburg were GErmans?
It might be the Hiwi, Eastern workers or even poles themself?At least part of them.
some bodies were naked so how can we be sure they belong to same nationality?
We know for sure there were a few million of workers from East in GErmany since 1941-42 who were busy in industrly and farm's.
DO you know ,was in Marienburg the any plan or industrial object there?

Chevan
02-19-2009, 11:38 PM
But let's not forget the justifiable anger of the Soviet soldiers in the Red Army! There were Russian families, and all elasticities really, that were stripped of their winter clothing and thrown out into the winter of sub zero temperatures to die of exposure so German soldiers didn't in 1941 and 42'.

Nick, sometimes i 'm going to think the KGB has already recruited you :mrgreen:
Can't but agreee.
If KGB tells you that French resistence was a essential and serious , how can i dispute it?:);)

flamethrowerguy
02-19-2009, 11:46 PM
A report from January 19 says that the 1800 dead could have been the victims of a Typhus epidemic which broke out in 1945. This would explain why the bodies were naked, the clothes would have been burned to avoid futher spreading.
According to the spokesman of the German minority in Malbork, Jerzy Fryc, the 30 victims with shot wounds in their skulls were the poor souls that were forced to collect and bury the bodies. They are supposed to be executed by the Red Army after they finished their job.

Chevan
02-20-2009, 12:02 AM
Why does it need to shot the peoples who collected the bodies , killed by Typhus epidemic?
Unless all they were the withesses of ...war crime.
And if it was the Typhus epidemic how do we know that epidemic killed ONLY the GErmans?
BTW we know that prisoners of some Polish concentration camps have been evacuated to the west befeor the advancing red army.
theyr were moved in columns with the guard.Some of them were ill by epidemic and migh died in a way.Some might be "liquidated" by guard.
How do we know all the victims were citizens on of Marienburg?Keeping in mind that there is no any special ethnical distinctions on the bones.

flamethrowerguy
02-20-2009, 12:11 AM
Why does it need to shot the peoples who collected the bodies , killed by Typhus epidemic?
Unless all they were the withesses of ...war crime.
And if it was the Typhus epidemic how do we know that epidemic killed ONLY the GErmans?
BTW we know that prisoners of some Polish concentration camps have been evacuated to the west befeor the advancing red army.
theyr were moved in columns with the guard.Some of them were ill by epidemic and migh died in a way.Some might be "liquidated" by guard.
How do we know all the victims were citizens on of Marienburg?Keeping in mind that there is no any special ethnical distinctions on the bones.

Just updating the latest info. Interesting though which various attempts of explanations come to light.
BTW, in an older report I read the authorities were able to identify the victims as Germans. It isn't absolutely political correct but seemingly they are able to tell a Slavic skull from a Central European one...

Chevan
02-20-2009, 12:44 AM
Just updating the latest info. Interesting though which various attempts of explanations come to light.
BTW, in an older report I read the authorities were able to identify the victims as Germans. It isn't absolutely political correct but seemingly they are able to tell a Slavic skull from a Central European one...

How may authorities to know about ethnic identify of bodies if there were no medical and criminal examination yet?
And if even they are the experts of Races antropology(That is hardly) - they couldn't , believe me, distinguish the German skull from slavic one.
Becouse both are belong to Aryan type.( unlike the jewish or mongoloid)

flamethrowerguy
02-20-2009, 01:15 AM
A member of the Malbork authorities estimates that the exhumations will be finished shortly. The dead will then be examined by an official medicolegal expert. Hopefully this will clear some things up.
Concerning the executed coroners' theory...the app. 30 bodies with shot wounds in the skulls were lying on top.

Schuultz
02-20-2009, 08:40 AM
So they took all the gold fillings, etc, from the Typhus victims as well as the Helpers, too? And that exactly in 1945, there's a Typhus epidemic, coinciding perfectly with when the Germans were to be removed from the new Polish/Soviet territory, and there happened to be all these people dying...

That seems like a poor excuse in order not to create any public outrage and upkeep a certain Polish innocence.