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Stefan Werner
01-12-2009, 05:11 PM
Good Afternoon folks,

Re-enactment in Canada isn't the largest of hobbies, mostly due to the limited knowledge of the hobby here.

This post goes out to anyone living in the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec. There is such a thing as Allied and German WWII re-enactment in the area.

I currently live in Montreal, and I am a member of the Kampfgruppe Haase, 2nd Panzer Division.

There are three main impression groups that fall under the umbrella of the KG;

- 2. Kompanie/LSSAH 1. SS Panzer Division; SS-Panzerdivision 12.
- Panzergrenadier Regiment 2./Panzerdivision 2. (5.Ko./Pz.Gren.Rgt.
2/2.Pz.Div.)
- Luftwaffe Ground Forces: 3rd Kompanie Fallschirmjäger Regiment 4 & Luftwaffe field Division 16.

We draw our numbers mainly from the Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal regions, and we welcome both francophones and anglophones to join us. Most of us are bilingual.

The 2nd Panzer group generally trains once a month during the spring, summer and fall seasons coupled with public events and larger scale tactical battles. Things take a slower pace during winter-time but we do try to have one training and one tactical battle in the snowy forests.

The website can be found at "www.soldaten.ca" All the necessary information required can be found there but if you have any questions please do not hesistate.

Si vous êtes francophones, n'hesitez pas a me contacter pour de l'information en français.

Take care,

-Werner

Schuultz
01-14-2009, 08:43 PM
When you said Eastern Canada you made me all excited, thinking you were talking about the Atlantic Provinces, too :(:(:(

But oh well... you should definitely take pictures and post them here or in the picture section...

J'espere que vous vous amusez

(My French has suffered since I moved to Canada - hope it's right...)

Stefan Werner
01-15-2009, 02:22 AM
I'm very sorry for the false hope on that one. :neutral:

I should have been more specific.

We do have one member who currently lives in Calgary, Alberta and flies to Toronto for the tactical battles. Then again he works for West Jet I believe and gets reduced fairs. :rolleyes:

You should look for other folks in your province who collect WWII stuff. One of our older members (he's 48 I believe) had been collecting German WWII stuff for 20 years and didn't even know that German re-enactment was taking place 30 km south of his house. lol

Votre français est tres bien. ;)

Moreheaddriller
01-15-2009, 06:59 AM
yur with a reenactment unit? so am i im with the 1st ss but ive never gone to canada

Stefan Werner
01-16-2009, 02:03 AM
I hear a lot of the units in the U.S.

To view the pictures of our Kampfgruppe just go to the link above "www.soldaten.ca"

Most of those pictures are from tactical events in Mid-west Ontario, my unit, the 2nd Panzer Grenadier is a little far away and can only make it one or twice a year. But it's very well organized.

Terry_214
01-16-2009, 05:27 AM
Check out the Photos on the website.

Looks like you guy have alot of fun.

:D:D

RicemanCDN
01-18-2009, 04:48 PM
i will be moving to alberta soon is ther any reanactment groups in the edmonton area? i have always been looking for one but there is none in western manitoba

Vera
03-21-2011, 12:02 PM
Hey Stefan!

I am new to the Ottawa area and have been looking for WW2 reenactors to take pictures of and see. Anyrate I had gone to the website for Kampfgruppe Haase and for some reason it is not leting me send a e-mail out to ya'll. Fell free to get ahold of me at alasvera(at)alasvera (dot) com
I am happy to see there are groups out there that are not neo nazi's! Anyrate I have a large portfolio of work and recently just got to work with a real ww2 vet in the US and had a great time.

Stefan Werner
03-22-2011, 03:11 PM
Hey There Vera!

We will probably attend one or two air shows this summer near ottawa/gatineau.

Be on the look-out for us! :D

Take care

Robomonkey
02-07-2013, 08:49 PM
Hi Stefan!

I just came across your post while researching German WWII reenactment in Montreal. My film production company is currently looking for reenactors for a 2 day teaser trailer shoot here in Montreal on February the 23rd and 24th. The film is an ode to exploitation films of the 70's, with liberal doses of humor, action, and babes etc. We are looking for an SS officer who would be one of the main villains in this teaser, as well as a large group of soldiers for a crowd scene inside their secret base.
This is an ACTRA MIP shoot. If yourself or anyone you may know might be interested, please contact us at info@robomonkey.net and we'll provide all of the details :)

Thank You!

AspiringSoldaten
04-14-2016, 03:45 PM
Hello Stefan.
I am a young man aspiring to become a re-enactor somewhere down the road. I do have some questions about your group.
First - How old do I have to be to become a re-enactor in your group?
Second - How often do you hold 'battle camps' (Re-enactment training, e.g Tactics, Rifle Drill, and 'Dying'?)
Third - How often does the group travel to a re-enactment 'site' over 10 hours away from Toronto?
Fourth - Are there equipment requirements? (I currently am saving for a K-98k, Feldgrau field Smock w/ boots, and already own a green Coal-Scuttle helmet)
Fifth - Does the group camp at the re-enactment site or return to a hotel for weekend-long outings?
Sixth - Is complete knowledge of the German language required? (I am taking classes)
Seventh - How often does the group re-enact with an audience? (5 times a year?)
Eighth - Is life on the job completely immersed in historical accuracy? (E.g only eat meals common in that era, only listen to music from a Phonograph, etc?)
Ninth - Are the group ranks chosen or do the members give themselves ranks? (I plan to get an Oberschutze patch)
Please email me at
herrobert21@yahoo.com
with the answers (That would be extremely helpful)
Danke!
P.S I am 13 years of age.

tankgeezer
04-14-2016, 03:50 PM
Hello Stefan.
I am a young man aspiring to become a re-enactor somewhere down the road. I do have some questions about your group.
First - How old do I have to be to become a re-enactor in your group?
Second - How often do you hold 'battle camps' (Re-enactment training, e.g Tactics, Rifle Drill, and 'Dying'?)
Third - How often does the group travel to a re-enactment 'site' over 10 hours away from Toronto?
Fourth - Are there equipment requirements? (I currently am saving for a K-98k, Feldgrau field Smock w/ boots, and already own a green Coal-Scuttle helmet)
Fifth - Does the group camp at the re-enactment site or return to a hotel for weekend-long outings?
Sixth - Is complete knowledge of the German language required? (I am taking classes)
Seventh - How often does the group re-enact with an audience? (5 times a year?)
Eighth - Is life on the job completely immersed in historical accuracy? (E.g only eat meals common in that era, only listen to music from a Phonograph, etc?)
Ninth - Are the group ranks chosen or do the members give themselves ranks? (I plan to get an Oberschutze patch)
Please email me at
herrobert21@yahoo.com
with the answers (That would be extremely helpful)
Danke!
P.S I am 13 years of age.

Hello A.S., a pleasure to have you on board our Site. Sadly, Stefan has not been signed in since sometime in 2011, so he may not answer your post. But perhaps some other of our group might have info that you seek. There are also many reenactment groups on Face Book, you might also look there for one that fits your interests. Feel free to stop by here any time you like, usually something good to look in on. Have a good day, -Tankgeezer

AspiringSoldaten
04-19-2016, 01:23 PM
Thanks tankgeezer,
I had some doubts about ever getting a reply. Have any good knowledge of groups on FaceBook? I'll make sure to look there.
Thanks -
AspiringSoldaten

tankgeezer
04-20-2016, 12:08 AM
Not for re-enactment groups, but a search of F.B. will show them for you.

Chevan
04-20-2016, 02:02 AM
Not for re-enactment groups, but a search of F.B. will show them for you.
I was always wondering of peoples who use such kind of role-playng games like ww2 german re-enactment. What is their motivation? Do they wish ( or dream) simulate only battles or the einsatzgruppen actions as well;)

Kovalski
04-20-2016, 03:48 AM
I was always wondering of peoples who use such kind of role-playng games like ww2 german re-enactment. What is their motivation? Do they wish ( or dream) simulate only battles or the einsatzgruppen actions as well;)

I've been asking myself the same question for quite a long time. I've been to a number re-enactment events and I couldn't understand what is driving these guys into SS and stuff like that. I mean apart from purerly historical motivation, there has to be some sort of "admiration" that makes people choose one unit, army than another.
And in this case I don't get it. What is to admire when it comes to SS? I know, one would said that they were brilliant warriors, with exceptional fighting skills, morale, etc. But still, behind all of that, there is an ideology, which is sick, based on hatred, murder and it's aim was to eliminate millions of people.
So maybe we should blame lack of education, knowledge?

Couple years ago I watched a BBC's "Panorama" about re-enactment events in UK. I will never forget one British WW2 veteran intervied by the TV crew. He was shocked, that almost 90% of re-enactors there, were wearing Wehrmacht and SS uniforms. He said it made him really, really said.

Nickdfresh
04-20-2016, 05:22 AM
I recall American comedian George Carlin making a joke about America Civil War reenactors telling them to "use live ammunition"... :mrgreen:

Stefan Werner
04-20-2016, 07:38 AM
Hey there folks! I'd forgotten about this thread. Interesting I only got an email notification this morning.

Indeed Facebook has replaced the website I originally posted.

If you're in the Montreal/Ottawa/Belleville area there's 2nd panzer division that you can search up on Facebook. We do have a public group for those interested.


If you're in the Toronto area there is the 1stSS division and the 3rd Panzer division. Both are also on Facebook I believe.

Why do people reenact SS? Honestly, the SS units had some of the worst fighting track records.... taking lots of casualties. The Fallschrimjager units performed much better. The biggest reason I think people lean towards SS is because of the very different camouflage uniforms they wore. People tend to like that more than the wehrmacht splinter camo pattern.

The SS also tended to be the first units supplied with the newest equipement or weapons. Thus you may see more SS guys with STG44s.

Anyway feel free to look up the WW2 ontario reenactors Facebook group for more info about available units.

Or you may email me your questions as I am more likely to see them than on this forum. Liorick182@hotmail.com

Take care,
Werner

Chevan
04-20-2016, 09:41 AM
Cześć mate Kovalski, nice to see you again;)


And in this case I don't get it. What is to admire when it comes to SS? I know, one would said that they were brilliant warriors, with exceptional fighting skills, morale, etc. But still, behind all of that, there is an ideology, which is sick, based on hatred, murder and it's aim was to eliminate millions of people.
I think that even SS were a brilliant warriors only relatively short time till the 1943 when the Himler has opened the SS for all sort of criminals and extremists. There comes on scene the Waffen-SS whose moral principles often were out of human limits and whose wish to fight has been determined only by their fear of retrebution for commited war crimes. I mean such sort of warriors like Bronislav Kaminski or Oskar Dirlewanger , whose "methods" and moral principles literally shocked the von Guderian.


So maybe we should blame lack of education, knowledge?
I rather think this it's lack of ...masochism in real life. Some players need to feel themself as a "bad guys". Plus they feels sort of sexual delight of effective-looking nazis uniform.

Chevan
04-20-2016, 09:42 AM
I recall American comedian George Carlin making a joke about America Civil War reenactors telling them to "use live ammunition"... :mrgreen:
He meant to use the afro-americans as a slaves in their fascinating games?:mrgreen:

Stefan Werner
04-20-2016, 10:15 AM
I rather think this it's lack of ...masochism in real life. Some players need to feel themself as a "bad guys". Plus they feels sort of sexual delight of effective-looking nazis uniform.

Has nothing to do with wanting to play bad guys... Prussian military traditions having nothing to do with Nazism... But, I did offer an explanation to those who prefer SS over Wehrmacht... aside from a mis-guided view that the SS were an ''elite'' force, which they were not - their unique camouflage patterns (Dot44 and Oakleaf) tend to attract some who prefer the look over that of the Wehrmacht's splinter camo or just fieldgray uniforms.

If you have any further questions you can e-mail me or PM me on this forum. We also have a Facebook group ww2 Onatrio which you can find all groups in Eastern Canada.

Thank you

tankgeezer
04-20-2016, 10:28 AM
I don't think so, old friend, :) I really don't know what the fascination is, aside from getting out of the house for a few days to role play. I guess it's like internet role playing games for older guys. And it covers all Battles, and Wars it seems, Here in the States, Revolutionary, and Civil War re-enactor groups are commonplace (and probably the most popular) , as are WW I, and WW II. Think there are some for the Boer, and Zulu Wars too. I would say that having all sides of a conflict covered by re-enactor groups would be expected.

Stefan Werner
04-20-2016, 10:33 AM
Sometimes the movies and history books aren't enough. There's nothing quite like experiencing a cold trench for 3 days at -20 degrees, eating hard rations and trying to reload a bolt action mauser with frozen fingers to get a tiny glimpse of what others before us may have experienced.

Chevan
04-20-2016, 10:55 AM
Hello Stefan! Actualy i have nothing against the role-playing. I just puzzled why so many westerners chose the nazis side in ww2 games
Has nothing to do with wanting to play bad guys... Prussian military traditions having nothing to do with Nazism...
I have to distress you , the units you have listed above like panzed division or luftwaffe ground forces - all of them had a direct relation to nazism and its military. And for a peoples from countryes , beeing ocuped by nazists in ww2 like Poland or Russia and whose relatives suffered the real nazis politic ( ethnic cleansings , mass execution and ets) the prussian military tradition still have a big deal to Wermacht, which alongside the SS , took active part in war crimes on the eastern front. So for me or Kovalski it's look wierd why peoples from Canada choose the german military re-enactment, while there a tonns of other military units , manies of whome fought very well in ww2, including the canadians.


But, I did offer an explanation to those who prefer SS over Wehrmacht... aside from a mis-guided view that the SS were an ''elite'' force, which they were not - their unique camouflage patterns (Dot44 and Oakleaf) tend to attract some who prefer the look over that of the Wehrmacht's splinter camo or just fieldgray uniforms.

You know what is the another call of the peoples who wear the uniform for pleasure- its fetishism;) Nothing personal, just Sigmund Freud.


If you have any further questions you can e-mail me or PM me on this forum. We also have a Facebook group ww2 Onatrio which you can find all groups in Eastern Canada.

Thank you
Thank you as well. Maybe once i will visit a Canada

Stefan Werner
04-20-2016, 11:02 AM
Why re-enacting as German and not Canadian - in part because there are already allied re-enactment units. If everyone did Canadian or FSSF re-enactment, there would be nobody to fight against ;)

JR*
04-20-2016, 12:46 PM
I am not an expert on military re-enacting by any means. I don't really get it myself. How do their wives stand it ? As regards WW2 re-enactors, the Wehrmacht in general, and the Waffen-SS in particular, does appear to be disproportionately represent by a country mile. Perhaps part of the reason is a Nazi orientation on the part of some of the participants; more important I think is the false glamour and evil allure of the SS. Not sure if any assiduous psychologist has done research on this.

Of course, re-enactment is not confined to WW2. Apart from a prosperous re-enactment industry in the US regarding the Civil War, there are lots of other re-enactment opportunities being exploited. Britain, for example, has many extremely well-equipped Roman re-enactment groups, and the Sealed Knot (one of Britain's most prestigious re-enactment outfits) refights battles of the English Civil War. Even here in the Emerald Isle (where military re-enactment is not a big thing) a number of groups devoted to re-enacting the 1916 Dublin Rebellion and the Irish War of Independence have been flushed out by the recent official celebration of the centenary former uprising. It will be interesting to see how things go when we get around to commemorating the dreadful Irish Civil War centenary in just a few years' time. Yours from the Stonebreaker's Yard, JR.

tankgeezer
04-20-2016, 01:02 PM
Then we have the Cold War Re-enactors.

AspiringSoldaten
04-20-2016, 01:26 PM
Thanks again tankgeezer,
I'll search on FaceBook. I really appreciate the help!
Many thanks,
AspiringSoldaten

Chevan
04-20-2016, 02:11 PM
Why re-enacting as German and not Canadian - in part because there are already allied re-enactment units. If everyone did Canadian or FSSF re-enactment, there would be nobody to fight against ;)
But you meet there not to fight and kill each other, right?;)Should be the other reason..

Chevan
04-20-2016, 02:25 PM
.. more important I think is the false glamour and evil allure of the SS. Not sure if any assiduous psychologist has done research on this.

I don't know whether the nazis attraction phenomenon has been researched but i know for sure the manies gays love to use the nazis symbolic. No , i don't want to say all the nazis researches are gays , but for those who find the ss-style romantic and glamoure- there is definitelly the reason to think about;)

tankgeezer
04-21-2016, 10:55 AM
But you meet there not to fight and kill each other, right?;)Should be the other reason.. Well, if one is going to re-enact a battle from a particular War, one must have an enemy to engage in Mock combat. Other than that, I am pretty sure that the only thing getting "killed" are bottles of Cheer. :)

Nickdfresh
04-21-2016, 10:55 AM
He meant to use the afro-americans as a slaves in their fascinating games?:mrgreen:

Oh no. Carlin was pretty leftist and was making fun of the notion of spending a lot of time reenacting battles which has always been traditionally big here. There are Afro-American reenactors as well as there were "colored units" mainly on the Union side, but the Confederate one as well as the South became more desperate...

Nickdfresh
04-21-2016, 10:59 AM
I don't know whether the nazis attraction phenomenon has been researched but i know for sure the manies gays love to use the nazis symbolic. No , i don't want to say all the nazis researches are gays , but for those who find the ss-style romantic and glamoure- there is definitelly the reason to think about;)

The Brownshirts were the real gay Nazis, almost openly gay in some respects. They of course lost out to the SS in the power-struggles (probably having little to do with Ernst Rohm's homosexuality - as it's clear that Hitler almost certainly knew of it). Himmler was wholly ineffectual as any sort of military leader, but he was rather skilled and ruthless as a political opportunist building his power-base...

I think singling homoerotism with the Nazi SS uniforms is a bit of a stretch. There also seems to be almost a science fiction aspect as well as an "underdog" phenomena as seeing the SS as high tech (which wasn't always the case) and ultra skilled warriors fighting against impossible odds by internet fanbois. Of course, much of it is bullshat as the SS still used pack animals and were dependent on rail for their logistics as compared to the Allies that were almost wholly motorized.

Nickdfresh
04-21-2016, 11:10 AM
Cześć mate Kovalski, nice to see you again;)

I think that even SS were a brilliant warriors only relatively short time till the 1943 when the Himler has opened the SS for all sort of criminals and extremists. There comes on scene the Waffen-SS whose moral principles often were out of human limits and whose wish to fight has been determined only by their fear of retrebution for commited war crimes. I mean such sort of warriors like Bronislav Kaminski or Oskar Dirlewanger , whose "methods" and moral principles literally shocked the von Guderian.

....

There is also the bitter reminiscences of the German regular Army (Heer) soldiers and officers that saw the Waffen-SS as overrated idiots and even thinly veiled cowards. Antony Beevor (your favorite author ;) ) writes in Ardennes 1944: The Battle of the Bulge that the SS often tended to conduct "tactical withdrawals" without notifying their Army "comrades" often leaving them holding the bag and even causing premature collapses in the face of U.S. counterattacks. The SS did often receive the newest and the prettiest equipment, but they were also self-important prriick's that were "too crucial to the war effort" to stand and fight, and often just wantonly retreated. Heer senior officers were also disdainful of the SS senior officers as hacks and military-idiots that were more often than not incompetent and whom were often unjustifiably, arrogantly disdainful of Heer and Luftwaffe ground forces...

Chevan
04-22-2016, 01:58 AM
There is also the bitter reminiscences of the German regular Army (Heer) soldiers and officers that saw the Waffen-SS as overrated idiots and even thinly veiled cowards. Antony Beevor (your favorite author ;) ) writes in Ardennes 1944: The Battle of the Bulge that the SS often tended to conduct "tactical withdrawals" without notifying their Army "comrades" often leaving them holding the bag and even causing premature collapses in the face of U.S. counterattacks. The SS did often receive the newest and the prettiest equipment, but they were also self-important prriick's that were "too crucial to the war effort" to stand and fight, and often just wantonly retreated. Heer senior officers were also disdainful of the SS senior officers as hacks and military-idiots that were more often than not incompetent and whom were often unjustifiably, arrogantly disdainful of Heer and Luftwaffe ground forces...
.... a brilliant worlds!!!! Really Beevor could write this?:) Doesn't look like his style. But, he is rather fascinating novelist then historian..:)

Chevan
04-22-2016, 02:27 AM
Himmler was wholly ineffectual as any sort of military leader, but he was rather skilled and ruthless as a political opportunist building his power-base...

Yeah , his "military genious" show it full size in "operation Nortwind". When after effective conter-offensive , as it has been reported to the Hitler, SS and heer lost twice more soldiers then the "defeated" allies:)


There also seems to be almost a science fiction aspect as well as an "underdog" phenomena as seeing the SS as high tech (which wasn't always the case) and ultra skilled warriors fighting against impossible odds..
The irony of fate was that when the SS really have faced the "impossible odds" in 1944-45 , their military incompetence and cowardice bacome absolutly clear for all the wermacht;)

Chevan
04-22-2016, 02:35 AM
Well, if one is going to re-enact a battle from a particular War, one must have an enemy to engage in Mock combat. Other than that, I am pretty sure that the only thing getting "killed" are bottles of Cheer. :)
But what is sence in mock combat? I can understand the meeting when the people enjoing by the test of the firearms or watching the german weaponry like stg44, Tiger or bf-109.Germans has made a lot of excellent weapon which get a real pleasure to hold in arms, to test, or merely watch it in action.We all like the technical things, aren't we? But what make the adult man to spend their rare free time by dressing the ..uniform and do some strange actions which is called the mock battle? The mystery for me;)

Rising Sun*
04-22-2016, 06:00 AM
There is also the bitter reminiscences of the German regular Army (Heer) soldiers and officers that saw the Waffen-SS as overrated idiots and even thinly veiled cowards.

I think I posted this somewhere on the forum many years ago, but my father knew an Australian Army officer who was a POW of the Germans. I'm getting rusty on the details, but essentially the Australian POW was in a train on a siding when a trainload of Waffen SS ended up stopped in a siding (or the main line) while a trainload of Heer infantry ended up stopped on the main line (or in a siding). Verbal abuse between the SS and Heer escalated until the Heer detrained and began setting up firebases with MGs and generally deploying for battle with the SS. Officers on both sides managed to control the situation, but the POW was left with the strong impression that the Heer didn't have any love for the SS. My recollection is that the SS were going west and the Heer were going east, which suggests that the Heer weren't happy about having to go into places where the SS had been engaged in various activities which would have resulted in the Heer being very badly treated if they were captured by the Soviets.

tankgeezer
04-22-2016, 08:04 AM
But what is sence in mock combat? I can understand the meeting when the people enjoing by the test of the firearms or watching the german weaponry like stg44, Tiger or bf-109.Germans has made a lot of excellent weapon which get a real pleasure to hold in arms, to test, or merely watch it in action.We all like the technical things, aren't we? But what make the adult man to spend their rare free time by dressing the ..uniform and do some strange actions which is called the mock battle? The mystery for me;)

Well to each their own I guess, some of the people take the whole thing very seriously in the way of wearing exacting copies of uniforms, and other bits of kit where at all possible, then play out the drama of a battle for a weekend here, and there. I have not viewed this myself, but know several who have, as I supplied them with sundry pieces of the items they used. "Mock Combat" is just the term for re-enacting, just as "Sham Battle" was used in ages past to describe the same sort of activity. It all means just fake fighting. It mystifies me as well Chevan, It's like re-enacting going to work after one has retired after 30 years of working every day. :)

Rising Sun*
04-22-2016, 08:27 AM
It's like re-enacting going to work after one has retired after 30 years of working every day. :)

No, it's not.

The re-enactors generally didn't work in the job they re-enact, which is the job the real soldiers did.

Tangentially, my infantry trained NCO son and some of his army mates decided to try paintball a while ago. The much larger group of people ahead of them wanted to be allowed to fight on the paintball range as a single group. The paintball range agreed. After my son and his mates had shot the shit out of that group in several sessions, the larger group spoke to them and, upon finding out that they were fighting trained soldiers from a cohesive unit, said it was unfair. The larger group were firemen. My son's group said something along the lines of "You're the ones who wanted to take on everyone else on the range as a group, thinking you'd shoot the shit out of them with your combined firepower. Not our problem if you're no good at it.". Re-enactors, who tend to go for scripted encounters, would probably do way worse than the firemen in similar circumstances.

Nickdfresh
04-23-2016, 08:15 AM
.... a brilliant worlds!!!! Really Beevor could write this?:) Doesn't look like his style. But, he is rather fascinating novelist then historian..:)

He repeats it several times and he uses direct quotes and their sources...

navyson
04-23-2016, 08:19 AM
I've posted before about my ancestors fighting for the Union in the Civil War. I've found reenactors that are associated with the companies next in line to the companies that my ancestors actually fought in. They participate mainly to keep history alive I guess. I've thought before about doing reenacting. Same thing, to keep history alive. To have a little glimpse of what my ancestors went through in real life I suppose.

Nickdfresh
04-23-2016, 08:19 AM
I think I posted this somewhere on the forum many years ago, but my father knew an Australian Army officer who was a POW of the Germans. I'm getting rusty on the details, but essentially the Australian POW was in a train on a siding when a trainload of Waffen SS ended up stopped in a siding (or the main line) while a trainload of Heer infantry ended up stopped on the main line (or in a siding). Verbal abuse between the SS and Heer escalated until the Heer detrained and began setting up firebases with MGs and generally deploying for battle with the SS. Officers on both sides managed to control the situation, but the POW was left with the strong impression that the Heer didn't have any love for the SS. My recollection is that the SS were going west and the Heer were going east, which suggests that the Heer weren't happy about having to go into places where the SS had been engaged in various activities which would have resulted in the Heer being very badly treated if they were captured by the Soviets.


It sounds like something that could be rather true. Beevor also wrote that SS formations tended to have the right-of-way in the axis of advance and this caused horrendous traffic jams and may also have aided the American effort to slow the advance and cut-off the Bulge....

Rising Sun*
04-23-2016, 11:30 AM
It sounds like something that could be rather true. Beevor also wrote that SS formations tended to have the right-of-way in the axis of advance and this caused horrendous traffic jams and may also have aided the American effort to slow the advance and cut-off the Bulge....

The probability of truth is reinforced by the hierarchies of loyalties / animosities in the armed services.

My section; my platoon; my company; my battalion; etc etc up to my service, e.g. army v navy or air force, against the others.

I know from my own recruit training that company versus company conflict nearly blew up into a full on brawl with every weapon available to us after being stood down for the night, which meant every weapon but no ammunition. As with the SS / Heer anecdote I mentioned, vigorous action by superiors - mostly sergeants and warrant officers (not sure if warrant officer is same in US - here I'm referring to the most senior NCOs who control all NCOs in company and above units / formations e.g. a battalion regimental sergeant major is a fearsome creature who sits at the right hand of the battalion lieutenant colonel and potentially outranks in practice all battalion lieutenants and the occasional captain) averted a significant casualty list.

In WWII and subsequent conflicts it was common in Western, and probably other, armies for conventional infantry units and commanders, especially senior commanders, to look down on special forces type units as some sort of show ponies who got undeserved resources and political / public admiration.

It's not difficult to see how the same mentality in Germany in WWII could have produced hostility in Heer units towards Waffen SS units, which could have been compounded by the rampant propaganda extolling the supposed superman abilities of the SS.

I'm inclined to suspect that the fascination in some quarters nowadays with the SS flows more from its own propaganda in WWII and nifty uniforms rather than an objective assessment of the SS as soldiers (the SS "soldiers" being those who did a bit more than guard concentration camps etc under the command of their glorious leader, the weedy and bespectacled failed chicken farmer who, oddly enough, never figures as the stereotypical SS "soldier").

Chevan
04-23-2016, 12:10 PM
They participate mainly to keep history alive I guess. I've thought before about doing reenacting. Same thing, to keep history alive. To have a little glimpse of what my ancestors went through in real life I suppose.
Do you really suppose that the playng the games in uniform and drinking the beers in evening is what our ancestros have passed within the wars? Or this kind of hobby makes us to remember the bloody episodes of history. For me on estern front the each battle was a terrible nighmare which anyone sane want to forget as soon as possible. I mean , we may to discuss the figures, ammunitions weapon and est , enjoing by the nice talk, but non of us , i'm sure woud not want to come back into the atmosphere of total horror where life costs nothing and death in eveywhere- the just another one ordinary battle of ww2. I'm stoopid or limited, but i can't associate the game with the bloody war:(

Chevan
04-23-2016, 12:24 PM
In WWII and subsequent conflicts it was common in Western, and probably other, armies for conventional infantry units and commanders, especially senior commanders, to look down on special forces type units as some sort of show ponies who got undeserved resources and political / public admiration.

Can't say for the special forces , but during my army service i faced the strong contempt to the logistical services officers from ordinary " combatan" officers. The "food and fuel" services in RA lives traditionally better for resale of stolen from army stores. We called them "rear rats" in most cases deservedly.

Chevan
04-23-2016, 12:27 PM
The re-enactors generally didn't work in the job they re-enact, which is the job the real soldiers did.

Just nothing to add;)

Nickdfresh
04-23-2016, 01:27 PM
Do you really suppose that the playng the games in uniform and drinking the beers in evening is what our ancestros have passed within the wars? Or this kind of hobby makes us to remember the bloody episodes of history. For me on estern front the each battle was a terrible nighmare which anyone sane want to forget as soon as possible. I mean , we may to discuss the figures, ammunitions weapon and est , enjoing by the nice talk, but non of us , i'm sure woud not want to come back into the atmosphere of total horror where life costs nothing and death in eveywhere- the just another one ordinary battle of ww2. I'm stoopid or limited, but i can't associate the game with the bloody war:(


I couldn't agree more...

I suppose there is some historical relevance that reenactors can contribute, but there is also a romanticist view that skews the actual horrors and stench of death. American Civil War reenactors never actually reenact the hospital part where limbs are sawed off (without much in the way of anesthesia) and just thrown in a pile:

Chevan
04-24-2016, 04:44 AM
I couldn't agree more...
I suppose there is some historical relevance that reenactors can contribute, but there is also a romanticist view that skews the actual horrors and stench of death. American Civil War reenactors never actually reenact the hospital part where limbs are sawed off (without much in the way of anesthesia) and just thrown in a pile:
..and , i'm sure ,they never reenact and restore the scenes of killed by bombing or artillery children and woman - exactly how the real war looks for the real civils.

Rising Sun*
04-24-2016, 05:00 AM
..and , i'm sure ,they never reenact and restore the scenes of killed by bombing or artillery children and woman - exactly how the real war looks for the real civils.

Good point!

Lots more civilians were killed in WWII than soldiers, sailors and aviators.

Total civilian deaths in WWII were perhaps three times military deaths, but in some places the ratio was much worse for civilians, as shown by the following table (yeah, I know some of the figures can be debated endlessly, but they're still a fair indication of who suffered most compared with who suffered least) http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-students/ww2-history/ww2-by-the-numbers/world-wide-deaths.html

navyson
04-24-2016, 09:51 AM
Do you really suppose that the playng the games in uniform and drinking the beers in evening is what our ancestros have passed within the wars? Or this kind of hobby makes us to remember the bloody episodes of history. For me on estern front the each battle was a terrible nighmare which anyone sane want to forget as soon as possible. I mean , we may to discuss the figures, ammunitions weapon and est , enjoing by the nice talk, but non of us , i'm sure woud not want to come back into the atmosphere of total horror where life costs nothing and death in eveywhere- the just another one ordinary battle of ww2. I'm stoopid or limited, but i can't associate the game with the bloody war:(

I don't know that it's the battle itself, but my knowledge is limited. I know the reenactors also do living history lessons for interested people. Camp life reenactments before "battles", camaraderie. Some may enjoy the "battles" themselves maybe. Maybe the American Civil War harkens back to a more chivalrous time? I agree, I wouldn't be interested in reenacting "battles" from the Eastern Front.