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colonel hogan
01-06-2009, 07:26 PM
how elite were the ss, why were they so finatically loyal to der ferhur?

Moreheaddriller
01-06-2009, 08:06 PM
Well the ss depending on what divison i guess you could classify as elite in military terms because its not like you could take the 1st adolf hitler divison and line it up next to the 23rd kama and say they were both elite when in fact the 23rd were crap and as to there loyality once again it depends on what divison some were ready to die for their fuher others like the 23rd kama or any of the baltic divisons joined because they thought that they were on the winning side in the war and rather than suffer the wrath of german occupation why not join the germans

colonel hogan
01-06-2009, 08:50 PM
cool thats interesting

alephh
01-07-2009, 12:27 PM
Some of the SS divisions (especially the first ones, like "Das Reich") were elite formations, but some SS units existed just for the propaganda purposes, and basically never faced any real battle (or they dropped their weapons if they did). So it's quite meaningless/difficult to sum SS divisions up in one word.

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kamehouse
01-07-2009, 01:24 PM
Some of the SS divisions (especially the first ones, like "Das Reich") were elite formations, but some SS units existed just for the propaganda purposes, and basically never faced any real battle (or they dropped their weapons if they did). So it's quite meaningless/difficult to sum SS divisions up in one word.

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Could you name some waffen-SS divisions that did such thing?
Really curious to know which one.

alephh
01-07-2009, 03:55 PM
Could you name some waffen-SS divisions that did such thing?
Really curious to know which one.

As you probably noticed, I wrote that:

"some SS units existed just for the propaganda purposes, and basically never faced any real battle"

... Not SS Divisions, but (smaller) SS units.

For example one unit of the Indian Waffen SS legion lost just couple of persons (If I'm not completely mistaken). And most Muslim/Azeri waffen SS units (formed in 1944/1945) were low in morale and training to begin with, and for example Ostturkischen Waffen SS unit (regiment?) pretty much just marched to Italy and surrendered to Americans.

One Russian/Ukrainian Waffen SS battalion mutinied and murdered its officers in late 1944.

One sad "SS Division" was 21st Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Skanderbeg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Skanderbeg _(1st_Albanian))
[edit: the url doesn't convert correctly, but hopefully it still works, if not, search the unit from wikipedia]

Sorry, but I directly cannot remember which units "dropped their weapons."

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pdf27
01-07-2009, 04:12 PM
Well, the British SS unit is a perfect example of this - most of the long-term members appear to have been working for British Intelligence, while the rest were using it as a kind of PoW camp version of Butlins - a break with better food and conditions, then they "changed their minds" and went back to the PoW camps. There might have been one or two who did actually fight immediately before VE-day, but that's it.

Schuultz
01-07-2009, 04:47 PM
If you wonder why some units were so loyal to Hitler, it's simple:

It was a requirement to be a convinced Nazi in order to be able to join.

kamehouse
01-07-2009, 05:57 PM
One Russian/Ukrainian Waffen SS battalion mutinied and murdered its officers in late 1944._
That would be the Georgische Legion?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Georgian_Legion_(1941-1945)
I have heard also of the Russkaya Osvoboditel'naya Armiya or Vlasov's army who changed side during the uprising of prague.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlasov_army
If it's not these units you were talking about ,could you give me more info?
I don't recall the 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ukrainische Nr.1) having mutinied also but there were so many units from eastern europe it makes me dizzy.
Speaking of the Ukranians,here are some words from Himmler at a staff conference in March 1945:
"We just don't know what is floating around.I have just heard for the first time,to my amazement,that a Ukranian SS division had suddenly appeared.I don't know a thing about this"

flamethrowerguy
01-08-2009, 10:41 AM
The murder of german NCO's/Officers actually occured with the 13th Waffen-Gebirgsdivision der SS "Handschar".
In "The SS: Hitler's Instrument of Terror" the author Gordon Williamson writes that the german staff despised "this hotchpotch of miserable muslim recruits with their ridiculous head gear". After verbal insults the tension kept rising and the killings happened.

kamehouse
01-08-2009, 12:45 PM
The murder of german NCO's/Officers actually occured with the 13th Waffen-Gebirgsdivision der SS "Handschar".
In "The SS: Hitler's Instrument of Terror" the author Gordon Williamson writes that the german staff despised "this hotchpotch of miserable muslim recruits with their ridiculous head gear". After verbal insults the tension kept rising and the killings happened.
But Alephh spoke of Ukranians/Russians troops.
A mistake maybe?

alephh
01-08-2009, 02:34 PM
The murder of german NCO's/Officers actually occured with the 13th Waffen-Gebirgsdivision der SS "Handschar".
But Alephh spoke of Ukranians/Russians troops.


After quickly browsing some sources: the case I refer to happened in the 30th Waffen SS Division (2nd Russian), Sept. 1944.


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flamethrowerguy
01-08-2009, 03:46 PM
After quickly browsing some sources: the case I refer to happened in the 30th Waffen SS Division (2nd Russian), Sept. 1944.

Yes, you're right. Within the 30th SS (Russian No. 2 respectively Belorussian No. 1) things like that happened as well. Within two different battalions of the division (actually it was still a brigade by August 1944) soldiers killed their german officers and defected.

kamehouse
01-08-2009, 05:14 PM
After quickly browsing some sources: the case I refer to happened in the 30th Waffen SS Division (2nd Russian), Sept. 1944.


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Thanks alephh ,I'll check for more info.

colonel hogan
01-08-2009, 05:30 PM
how many ss divisions were there aproximitley?

flamethrowerguy
01-09-2009, 08:57 AM
Approximately between 20 to 50.

Hanz Lutz
01-11-2009, 06:45 PM
Hi maybe google can help you.

I know off-topic but where is my signature.

snebold
01-12-2009, 05:29 AM
Early in the war SS soldiers were volunteers and rejected if they were physically or ideologically "unfit". These units consisted of well trained and enourmously motivated individuals, who showed great courage in combat. (Hitler was delighted as these units didnīt question orders or hestitated when suffering severe losses). As the war wore on the bar for acceptance to the SS was progressively lowered and by 1944 the SS was drafting Reichdeutsche (ethnic Germans from outside Germany) and created units that lacked the training and motivation of the earlier SS units.

The "good" SS Pz.divīs. were sometimes (in the 2nd half of the war) better equipped than the equivalent army divīs.

(Upon the return of a SS div. ("Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" ??) to the Eastern Front from rest/reequipment in France, the opposing Soviet units is said to have had a "oh no, not them again" moment).

Does anybody know anything about the chances for survival for an SS soldier that served from 1940/41? Itīs my impression that they led a more dangerous life than the army soldiers. It wasnīt far into Barbarossa before the SS had difficultiesfinding enough replacements of "the right kind".

snebold
01-12-2009, 05:35 AM
At its height Waffen SS had 38 divisions (and quite many loose battalions) and 700000men, this was in the 2nd half of 1944 and many of these divīs. were understrength (both in materiel and personel).
Some divisions were probably destroyed before this, so a total "Division count" would give more than 38.