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kallinikosdrama1992
12-29-2008, 04:21 PM
What you think about what happens , in Israel ??? Do you believe that a land assault from the Israelis could "solve" the problem ???

Moreheaddriller
12-29-2008, 04:48 PM
Well i dont think you are ever going to solve any problems in the middle east it's just a place known for conflict but i guess an assualt could save the Israelis from more hamas rocket attacks if thats what your asking

kallinikosdrama1992
12-29-2008, 05:17 PM
Well i agree with both of you , but dont you think that an israeli attack could "build" another Afganistan or Iraq ??? Suicide attacks from Hamas , ambushes in Gaza ... or Hamas has not the "resources" for that ???

grenadier99
12-29-2008, 08:44 PM
hamas knew israel would retaliate.they want the world focus on them,they wanted a reaction.have you seen all the demonstrations in the middle east.what they hope to accomplish i dont know,but pretty soon they will be rulers of a pile of rubble.

kallinikosdrama1992
12-30-2008, 06:17 AM
Well grenadier , i cant say i disagree with you , but even if the world focus on them whats the point ??? every reasonable person could realise that they are terrorists who do what they do for "the greater good" but through that they actually do the exact opposite thing : they are causing pain to the palestinian people .

Rising Sun*
12-30-2008, 06:17 AM
I blame the Israelis, because Israel exists because the Zionists muscled into Palestine and displaced and often expelled the Palestinians who survived their invasion and ensured that the Palestinians could not return to the homeland they had occupied for millennia after the Zionists' ancestors had departed.

The current situation goes back politically most recently to Lord Balfour and short term British war aims in 1917.

Which goes back to centuries of European persecution of the Jews which encouraged the creation of Zionism.

Whch goes back to centuries of European Christian hostility to Jews.

Which goes back to Roman hostility to the Jews, notably someone called Jesus.

And so on.

Then there are current influences such as American support for Israel by a collection of wealthy American Zionists who influence American politicians but nowhere near as much as fundamentalist Christians who hold a big swag of Republican votes and who believe that Israel must be preserved to allow the second coming of Christ.

Then there are people on both or more sides of the issue who just have silly ideas. :rolleyes:

Instead of being upset about the current violence, we should just accept that that is the way of the Middle East in its current form (not unlike Europe in its form until about sixty years ago, for the time being) as, despite all the attention being devoted to Israel, the Iran-Iraq war was far worse but went almost completely unnoticed in the West while huge efforts were devoted to seeking peace in or over Israel where, comparatively, hardly anyone got hurt or killed.

Frankly, I don't care any more, as long as the West keeps out of the Middle East and lets the Arabs sort out Israel, or vice versa, once and for all.

Of course, if the Arabs sort out Israel, then we'll have to put up with something like the Iran-Iraq war again (Yes, I know that the Iranians aren't Arabs.) between whomever there.

Again, I just don't care.

Well, I do care, but I can't do anything about it, and they don't want to do anythng about it, so why not just stand back and let them all slaughter each other?

To the victor, the spoils.

I am, as the kids say nowadays, completely over it!

kallinikosdrama1992
12-30-2008, 06:23 AM
Again, I just don't care.

Well, I do care, but I can't do anything about it, and they don't want to do anythng about it, so why not just stand back and let them all slaughter each other?

To the victor, the spoils.

I am, as the kids say nowadays, completely over it!

RS i believe you are right and i guess most of those who are in this forum will do the same . But man do you agree with these artillery/rocket barrages of Israel to the palestinians ???

pdf27
12-30-2008, 06:46 AM
I blame the Israelis, because Israel exists because the Zionists muscled into Palestine and displaced and often expelled the Palestinians who survived their invasion and ensured that the Palestinians could not return to the homeland they had occupied for millennia after the Zionists' ancestors had departed.
Sadly, that's a hideously over-simplified description. There have been Jews living in Palestine continuously ever since the Diaspora.
To describe zionists as "muscling in" is partially misleading - at various times Jewish immigrants to modern-day Israel have used every method from buying land (probably the most common) to full-on ethnic cleansing of Arabs. Furthermore, the Palestinian refugees were not the exclusive fault of Israel - during the 1948 war, the various Arab states encouraged them to leave their homes so as to make the entire state of Israel a free-fire zone, making it easier to exterminate the Jews within it's boundaries. Ever since, these states have done everything in their power to prevent the refugees becoming permanent citizens or putting down roots in any form - because it is in their interest to maintain the cycle of violence.

Frankly, "a plague on both your houses" seems the most appropriate comment here.

Rising Sun*
12-30-2008, 06:56 AM
But man do you agree with these artillery/rocket barrages of Israel to the palestinians ???

I don't agree with any violence.

I'm a pacifist.

Violence begets violence, and so it goes forever, to no ultimate or good purpose in most cases.

People who are victims of violence often have a well founded belief that they are entitled to inflict equal or greater violence on those who hurt them.

Add to that the background of decades of oppression and dispossession of the Palestinians by the Israelis and, if I was a Palestinian and not a pacifist, I'd be shooting the shit out of every Israeli I could find who was occupying my family's home and lands of but a few decades ago while I was forced to live in some rubble built slum because neither the Zionists nor my supposed Arab brothers in adjoining lands would allow me to live in their lands.

On the other hand, if I was an Israeli who had pushed into the settlements in pursuit of Jahweh's right given to me to occupy them and in the process to dispossess lesser beings such as Palestinians, then of course I would regard it as outrageous that Hamas or anyone else would use violence to try to redress what they see as my arrogant expropriation of Palestinian property when Jahweh gave me and my people the right to push out every Palestinian who stood in the way of me and my people reclaiming what we think is ours, after an interval of barely a couple of thousand years in our title to the land.

Rising Sun*
12-30-2008, 06:57 AM
Frankly, "a plague on both your houses" seems the most appropriate comment here.

That was my point, if not clearly expressed.

herman2
12-30-2008, 08:20 AM
This is the way the Herman Meister sees it.:
Bush is on his way out and Israel knows it, so they are capitalizing on this, cause they know Bush will not say anything to critical or take any action (not that they ever do, against Israel), BUT, I think Israel knows it better act before Obama comes to Power. Bush is like a dying dog on the ledge. Heís tired and worn out and he wonít do anything about this fiasco on his way out. Israel knows this and can and will do, whatever it wants cause USA will not do anything about it. The UN is a useless group of people who donít take action against Iran or Sadam, so all they do is pose threats and say donít do this and so forth.
Secondly,
I believe, the ceasefire was in place under the condition that the medical supplies and aid could continue into Gaza. The Israeliís did not allow free trade into Gaza and over the mths the people of Gaza complained why Israel was slowing and refusing the aid to enter since the ceasefire began. So since the partial blockade was never lifted, the people of Gaza got pissed and said why do we have a ceasefire when we are being punished by partial blockade, so they get mad and shoot a few rockets into Israel to protest.
The bottom line, is that if Israel only allowed aid and medical supplies to enter Gaza unobstructed, in the first place, this would not have happened (in my humble opinion).
You canít limit or delay trade to a suffering nation and expect them not to get pissed off.
The tanks will most definitely roll into Gaza Very Soon, before Obama comes to Power. That I guarantee!

kallinikosdrama1992
12-30-2008, 10:26 AM
You canít limit or delay trade to a suffering nation and expect them not to get pissed off.
The tanks will most definitely roll into Gaza Very Soon, before Obama comes to Power. That I guarantee!

Herman is right . Totally right . Well actually not for this last thing , but mainly for everything he wrote . Could be a different way of solving this particular conflict in Israel ??? And one last thing . I heard an Israeli Minister talking and said that "hamas diliberately(i dont know if i spell it right) aims for children and kindergarden ..." and said it after the first bombardement at the time schools were ended . Do you believe she's right ??? From the things i've heard Hamas fires in blind the rockets .

I hope you understand what i am writing

herman2
12-30-2008, 10:58 AM
The problem with Islamic rebels is that they tend to put women and children in area's where they are hiding stuff. Remember Sadam, when he hid arsenals of stuff in mosques and near hospitals so that when the Americans bombed in that area, the Iraqi's would say that they are being targeted by their mosque's etc. I don't know if its true or not, but CNN say's so. I find it very hard to believe that Hamas would put children and women in harms way. It's just so un-natural. I also question why the university was bombed recently in Gaza. Were they hiding missiles in the university? I find that hard to swallow. Hamas will never ever forgive Israel as long as they keep bombing and invading their land. Itís like putting a hammer to a pea. The retaliation is well above normal response and the killing of innocent civilians defies the rules of war.More pictures of dead children will be shown in due time on CNN, When will this stop?.

kallinikosdrama1992
12-30-2008, 02:38 PM
Look Herman my guess is that it will never stop . In that area war will never stop . It is something that is happening all the time

herman2
12-30-2008, 03:07 PM
Look Herman my guess is that it will never stop . In that area war will never stop . It is something that is happening all the time

I totally agree. It is very very sad state of affairs. I am beginning to question if it were better off if Israel not exsist where it is, given the instability the country has caused to the entire region for the past 45 years. Although too late to do anything about it now. I feel sorry for them all, both sides.

kallinikosdrama1992
12-30-2008, 03:25 PM
If this keep going in this "rythme" then Gaza will no longeer exist . Now i am listening the news and says that Israel fears that a land attack , will activate also other "organisations" like Hesbolah

herman2
12-30-2008, 03:27 PM
The Lebaneese I work with are going nuts over this thing too!

kallinikosdrama1992
12-30-2008, 03:42 PM
The Lebaneese ??? How comes ??? I guess the Syrians should pissed off

kallinikosdrama1992
12-30-2008, 04:01 PM
Well guys i dont know about you but i feel kind of strange cause you know this things happens where jesus lived . I put here the idea of realigion . But dont you think is odd these things to happen when actually "love and hope" was born ???

tankgeezer
12-30-2008, 09:44 PM
It may serve the nations around Israel to remove the Hamas influence from their lands. If those people hide, and strike from innocent lands in order to further their hate,they show contempt for their hosts, and place them in great danger for their own selfish ends. Hamas seems a friend to no one but Hamas. Israel must protect their own lands, and people, in whatever way they can. The Arab Nations need to remove the threat of Hamas. Or, one day some fanatical person will launch a chemical or biological weapon at Israel, then there will be real trouble, this time for the entire world.

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 06:37 AM
You said about a fanitical , you're talking about any arab or Hamas ???

herman2
12-31-2008, 07:53 AM
A picture is worth a thousand words. Just an example of who the Israelis are killing.

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kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 08:00 AM
Damn man , i saw the people on the hospitals , but this thing is ... no words ... only what you see ...

herman2
12-31-2008, 08:43 AM
And you know what, the media isn't even allowed to be near the skirmish (unlike the Iraq war). The Israli's have banned media near the war area. I even read that before the war, journalists that would be doing reports near the border were shot in the leg with rubber bullets. there is a whole web site on how many journalists are shot by rubber bullets by the Israeli's. Talk about censorship!! Thank God I live in a Free and Democratic country!

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 09:12 AM
Its not good for the media to show what's going on in Palestine . The only thing we see are Palestine rockets parts .

Drake
12-31-2008, 09:26 AM
This is the same kind of people the palestineans are and have been killing for years and they usually target them specifically. Civilians.
Anyway, if you think you could put the blame on one side only you've fallen for propaganda, do you seriously believe the palestinean information to be any more trustworthy than the israelis'.
If I say both are liars I'm probably closer to the truth than by believing either side.

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 09:31 AM
No i dont believe neither the palestinians nor the israelis . I just the fotos . So you say that the palestinian blind rockets shots are not blind and the israeli hits close to the hospitals are been by mistake ???

herman2
12-31-2008, 09:40 AM
It;s funny that israel has the most sophisticated weaopns in the worrld. It's funny that they are only a few miles from their target. It's not funny that with all the American purchased high teck expensive weaoponary, living so close to Gaza, that they still manage to bomb civilians or a moque or a hospital or a Univerisity.hmmmm???
If Israel shoots a rocket into a Hospital and kills 20 children, itís called self protection. If Gaza sends a rocket and it breaks an arm of a grown man, itís called terrorism.
Israel always kills 20 fold the number of people that Palestine or Gaza injure.
What a way to bring in the New Year eh! Death and destruction.

tankgeezer
12-31-2008, 09:55 AM
Those oh so sensitive Hamas people know that their actions will bring retaliation from Israel, yet they continue to place other Arabs in the crosshairs.They do not care that their actions bring the things you show in your photo.By their actions, Hamas is pulling the trigger on their own people. Do not blame Israel for defending themselves, do blame Hamas for attacking Israel, and their own people as well.
Israel does have sophisticated weapons in their arsenal, most purchased from the U.S. They have them in order to defend against the vast numerical advantage the Arab world has over them.Is it so surprising that they vigorously defend themselves? no. Such criminal acts by Hamas deserve no clemency (to the Israeli point of view) The answer is simple. Those who govern the lands Hamas uses to prosecute their criminal actions need to track them down, and stop them, Period. Then Israel will not disturb them.
Herman, I have an idea, The U.N. should relocate Israel to the land presently occupied by Canada, and you folks can go make nice with the Arabs. I hear they love bacon, and strip shows. Seriously Herman, there is nothing we can do to stop them from attacking, or Israel from defending. Its not our fight, and they are sovereign nations, so thats that.

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 10:01 AM
Herman you're right !!! This will be the new wish "Happy New Year And A Total Destruction" . "Funny" huh ??? But those you said about the army tech they have . I'm sure the Israeli batteries will be only some miles away . I've seen indirrect artillery fire support been fired at 15 kilomitres and been precise . And i am talking for artillery 20 years old . And now modern artillery is hitting somewhere else by accident ???

herman2
12-31-2008, 10:05 AM
Those oh so sensitive Hamas people know that their actions will bring retaliation from Israel, yet they continue to place other Arabs in the crosshairs.They do not care that their actions bring the things you show in your photo.By their actions, Hamas is pulling the trigger on their own people. Do not blame Israel for defending themselves, do blame Hamas for attacking Israel, and their own people as well.
Israel does have sophisticated weapons in their arsenal, most purchased from the U.S. They have them in order to defend against the vast numerical advantage the Arab world has over them.Is it so surprising that they vigorously defend themselves? no. Such criminal acts by Hamas deserve no clemency (to the Israeli point of view) The answer is simple. Those who govern the lands Hamas uses to prosecute their criminal actions need to track them down, and stop them, Period. Then Israel will not disturb them.

But why did Hamas shoot rockets into Israel in the first place?
The 6 mth Truce was created under the impression that the Border trade into Gaza would be unmolested. Israel did not allow unmolested trade and supplies were limited and many crucial items, including food and medical aid were delayed from entering Gaza by the Israeliís . So why wouldnít Hamas shoot a rocket into Israel . It was Israel that provoked the altercation by limiting the necessary trade/aid in the first place. You canít squeeze a rat into the corner and expect him to not bite can you? Hamas reacted to the unacceptable actions precipitated by Israel which the 6 mth truce was suppose to avoid. What choice did they have?To accept being squeezed to death by the iron grip of Israel. Did UN do anything about it?.No. UN never does anything about it.

I think it is more than criminal that Israel denied/delayed the aid into Gaza as this precipitated the chain of events.

herman2
12-31-2008, 10:11 AM
Herman you're right !!! This will be the new wish "Happy New Year And A Total Destruction" . "Funny" huh ??? But those you said about the army tech they have . I'm sure the Israeli batteries will be only some miles away . I've seen indirrect artillery fire support been fired at 15 kilomitres and been precise . And i am talking for artillery 20 years old . And now modern artillery is hitting somewhere else by accident ???

It's no accident. It's a "I Don't care Attitude" that only Israel can get away with. Doesn;t Israel have enough spies in Gaza to know exactly where to bomb?. I tell you, israel has more spies in Gaza and Lebenaon then America had in Russia. they are smart people and know their stuff. Why send a million dollar missile to kill a Hamas bunker with precision when you can send a $20,000 inaccurate missile that sorta hits the target on spot. Afterall, they see it as good money wasted on an evil enemy.

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 10:20 AM
On the one hand i blame Hamas who shot the first rocket but also i am with them cause they did it in order protest in the israeli blockade . On ther other hand israelis fired their missiles , MODERN MISSILES , and they hit hospitals and civilians . Maybe they are both wrong . i dont know

herman2
12-31-2008, 10:25 AM
A missile shots into a farmers field in Israel and kills a cow. BIG WOW....So Israel sends 100 missiles into Gaza and kills whoever the hell it wants. Does this make sense?
If a person from Gaza flings a firecracker over the fence, does this give Isreal the right to send an atomic bomb over, without care of who it kills?. Where is the useless UN? Could the UN not predict this?

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 10:30 AM
Well from my part UN is under the "lead" of the US . And US has no problem with what is happening down there . Cause this is the way the "destroy" terrorism .

herman2
12-31-2008, 10:44 AM
If your child died bloddy like this, would you not want to shoot rockets into Israel yourself!..Shame Shame Israel!!

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kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 10:51 AM
Of course . Hell yeah . Once more i would do that because i knew israel would not do that by accident . Because they have weapons that they cant miss

Drake
12-31-2008, 11:05 AM
The target wasn't an accident, just as much as it isn't an accident that Hamas puts its weaponry preferably close to or even in kindergardens, schools or hospitals, exactly to provoke those kind of casualties. Now who's to blame? In any common war the answer would be obvious. If someone abuses the red cross to hide weapons etc. it's a warcrime and makes the ship or hospital a legitimate target. It's clearly the fault of the perpetrator who abused civilian targets for military purposes in the first place.

And seriously herman, if you think the nearly 3000 rockets and countless mortar grenades fired onto israels territory this year alone killed a single cow only, you're even more delusional than your general attitude on this forum indicates.

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 11:18 AM
Come on man . This was just an example . Not so good but an example . But the
all thing is wrong . Completely wrong . Both of them are mistaken . The Israelis blockade them , so they "should accept the consiquences" . And the same happens for the Palestinians .

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 12:10 PM
And now the new thing . A nominated Israel about the presidency , said that we can compare , what happens with the World War II . Israel is like the British who
fight against the Germans(Palestinians) who bombed Birmingham and London . That's why the war should still on .



Also Bush is officially with the Israelis

herman2
12-31-2008, 12:11 PM
The target wasn't an accident, just as much as it isn't an accident that Hamas puts its weaponry preferably close to or even in kindergardens, schools or hospitals, exactly to provoke those kind of casualties. Now who's to blame? In any common war the answer would be obvious. If someone abuses the red cross to hide weapons etc. it's a warcrime and makes the ship or hospital a legitimate target. It's clearly the fault of the perpetrator who abused civilian targets for military purposes in the first place.

And seriously herman, if you think the nearly 3000 rockets and countless mortar grenades fired onto israels territory this year alone killed a single cow only, you're even more delusional than your general attitude on this forum indicates.

Who you calling Delusional Drake. You picking a fight with me? Look up the stats and tell me how many Israelis died and how many Palestinians died. The only one delusional is your pro-baby killer attitude. If you disagree with my post that’s fine, but I don’t go around name calling your prissy *** now do I?...and another thing, if your so sure that Hamas is putting weapons in hospitals and schools, then um, what media are you reading this from?, cause last I heard, western media was BANNED from entering Gaza. So are you relying your opinion on the Isralie assumption and Israeli media?....(I believe what your saying is true), but to defend my position i am going on a limb that the media used to prove your assumption is not exactly UN media but rather Israeli media;thus to what extent it is, remains a valid uncertainty. Do you got a picture of all these weapons hiding in all the schools?.Oh yea, right, I shouldn't question Western Media because they are always right. Oh Ya, All the schools in Gaza are rim filled with Big Atomic bombs and all the Hospitals in Gaza are packed with machine guns. So bomb the hell out of all of them because its a war crime. The hell with the ****in babies that DIE , because their lives are not worth spit. Just bomb the mother f***'s wherever they may be hiding amunition, regardless if babies die. It takes an idiot to think this is right. You don't go bombing hospitals and schools, just because there hiding crap. Instead, invade the frigin place and take care of it through a commando invasion. Gaza is like 2 minutes by plane. You telling me, that bombing the babies is the best thing to do because it meane israel is protecting itself?.Give nme a break. I vote for an Invasion and take out the Rebels and strip all the weapons from Hamas, but Don't kill the Babies

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 12:31 PM
Somethings , i saw in the news . A suiside attack in israel , an air raid in Gaza . A soldier was kidnapped by the palestinians another air raid in Gaza . In each battle , top cassualties for the israelis were 5 man , for the Palestinians 100 man . Realise what is going on . Also israel is not allowed , supplies to be transferd in Gaza . Can you realise that that they can not treat their wounded in Gaza but they transfer them into Egypt . They cant use their own hospitals

herman2
12-31-2008, 12:46 PM
YA!, They can't use their own Hospitals, because Drake say's their using the Hospitals to stash all their machineguns and rockets and ammo. Why would they use their own hospital. If they used their own hospital, then where would they put all the thousands if not hundreds of thousands of rockets that their supposedly hiding in their hospitals!
God!
I am actually surprised why Israel has not yet bombed the daycare centres or the children orphanages cause I heard that the centrifugal cores used to enrich Uranium for atomic bombs is hiding in there. I heard it on the Israeli news, so it must be true!

tankgeezer
12-31-2008, 12:51 PM
None of the above makes Hamas right, or Israel wrong. There are always better ways to do things, but still it changes nothing. This is degenerating into nothing but emotional ranting, which you are welcome to engage in, but you will find few interested in playing the blame it all on Israel game.Hermey, you're now on ignore.

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 12:59 PM
I am actually surprised why Israel has not yet bombed the daycare centres or the children orphanages cause I heard that the centrifugal cores used to enrich Uranium for atomic bombs is hiding in there. I heard it on the Israeli news, so it must be true!

Damn herman this is hard man . But tankgeezer herman's right . A coin has always to sides . Dont you see it only from one side

herman2
12-31-2008, 01:07 PM
Damn herman this is hard man . But tankgeezer herman's right . A coin has always to sides . Dont you see it only from one side

Everybody (UNFORTUNATELY) hates Muslims so nobody cares if Gaza people die. Even the Israeli’s would rather bomb the shit out of Gaza then send in ground troops to fix the problem. Sending in Ground troops would mean losing Israeli lives and it is better to kill Hamas, even at the expense of killing children, then losing one single Israeli life. That my friend, is what WAR is all about. Everybody symphonises with Israel because they “Have the right to protect themselves”. BUT, Israel stole the land from the Palestinians in the first place! THE U.N. did a grave injustice in creating the state of Israel. The U.N. should have known it would never work.
I firmly support the state of Israel, but just not where it is situated.

And another thing, according to this poll, the only 2 people who think Israel was responsible for the chain of events to occur is me and RS. Well, RS is the smartest member on this forum and if he thinks that way then he must have good reasons, unlike my so called out of the air comments.

kallinikosdrama1992
12-31-2008, 01:13 PM
ďHave the right to protect themselvesĒ

Yeah nice way to protect yourself and defending it . Killing women and children .
Is there any Hamas member killed ??? Or the Palestinians cant say the truth ???

herman2
12-31-2008, 01:16 PM
Don't you get it!...All them women and children who are dead with blood on their bombed skulls are HAMAS. They are the ones who lit the rockets into Israel. They are the Hamas so thats why Israel killed them.

pdf27
01-01-2009, 08:07 AM
As i said In 1948 Israel established the new jewish state in 1948. Which meant israel made a country in arabs territory
Errr.... not exactly. The whole area (Israel, Palestine, Jordan, the lot) was under British League of Nations mandate after being captured from the Ottoman Empire during WW1. The population of the area was mixed Jewish, Christian and Muslim at the time it was captured - with the majority of subsequent immigration being Jewish. If anything, Israel was carved out of either Ottoman (which was Turkish and hence NOT Arab) or British territory.

alephh
01-01-2009, 09:25 AM
If Israel manages to wipe out Hamas, even more radical group will emerge.

If Israel manages to destroy 100% of the tunnels and weapon labs, all those arabs who lose friends/relatives in the process will support Hamas in the future, so Hamas will have even more tunnels and weapons labs in the future. Israel wins in short term, but loses in the long run.

If even one Hamas member / tunnel / weapon lab is alive/exists after the bombing, Hamas will declare it as a "victory". Israel loses.

I cannot see how Israel can win in the long run by ground attacks or bombings. They should do something to win over the arab population, or to turn them against Hamas. For example, if Israel would cut down supplies (or close borner points for a day) to area every time rockets fell in Israel, that should create some anti-Hamas feelings among the population (most of the population just want to live their lives and thrive, and that their family is safe) - that way only militarily aggressive participant would be Hamas.

Drake
01-01-2009, 09:47 AM
I don't think humans as a group actually posess all the positive characteristics they usually like to attribute to themselves, like intelligence, wisdom, peacefullness, empathy etc. Consequently I think there will be no solution to the conflict which would actually finish it, with the exception of a final one. Otherwise this will go on forever and ever.
This is actually my prediction for the future, this will go on for decades like it already did and every side will blame the other one.

@Herman: The whole shebang didn't start yesterday and contrary to you I don't obtain my information from Pallywood only, but try to tap into all possible sources to make myself a picture of a situation.
Don't kill the babies, what a noble ideal, what a useless phrase in a warzone. Ground troops are your solution? Heck, they're accidentally shooting at themselves 30% of the time, what makes you think they wouldn't accidentally hit civilians, like a mother with her child?

Rising Sun*
01-01-2009, 10:04 AM
They should do something to win over the arab population, ...

From my experience of Arabs who have long left the Middle East, and others like me who aren't even Arabs and who frankly are pretty much past caring which of the two rabid dogs is in the right, I doubt that Israel could do anyting to erase the past 60 plus years of discrimination against; oppression of; expulsion of; dispossession of; and hostility towards Arabs in Jewish territories.

Sooner or later there is going to be a cataclysm in the Middle East, and quite possibly much of the rest of the world as a consequence, as a result of Zionist aggrandisement and intransigence in and around Israel.

I'm largely past caring about it because it is insoluble because nobody involved wants to solve it except upon terms wholly unacceptable to the the other side.

Alas, the US continues to support Israel and so does my country, which drags us into something that has nothing to do with us and is not worth shedding one drop of Australian blood over.

Except, perhaps, the blood of thousands of Australian Jews who have left Australia on Australian passports to go to live in Israel to reclaim their birthright land after an interval of a thousand or two years since their ancestors left.

I have a much stronger claim to land in Ireland within the past couple of hundred years. I wonder how much international support, particularly from the US, I'd get for grabbing a bit of land there, starting with blowing up the main hotel in Dublin and running a terrorist campaign for another few years until I get what I want?

Bah! I'm sick of the lot of them.

pdf27
01-01-2009, 11:23 AM
I wonder how much international support, particularly from the US, I'd get for grabbing a bit of land there, starting with blowing up the main hotel in Dublin and running a terrorist campaign for another few years until I get what I want?
Quite a bit probably - ever hear of NORAID?

kallinikosdrama1992
01-01-2009, 11:45 AM
Quite a bit probably - ever hear of NORAID?
pdf what noraid means ???

pdf27
01-01-2009, 12:00 PM
Money collected in the United States (principally in the North-East, among the "Irish" community) on behalf of the IRA. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORAID .
There is a fair bit else along those lines going on - granting of political asylum to escaped murderers springs to mind as well.

pdf27
01-01-2009, 12:04 PM
The burly bartender at a neighborhood saloon in the Queens section of New York City offers a shot of John Jameson Irish whisky to a Gaelic-looking stranger. As the visitor tosses it down, the bartender mutters a curse about "the bloody Brits"—and carefully observes the drinker's reaction. At the slightest sign of agreement, he moves in. Bluntly, and loudly enough so his other Irish-American patrons can hear, he asks the stranger for a contribution to the terrorist Provisional wing of the Irish Republican Army.

Few customers can resist the pressure: most contribute. Each week the bartender collects about $100, which he turns over to unnamed friends who deliver it "where it will do the most good." The bartender, who has never even seen Ireland but whose father was born there, also collects weapons for the Provisional I.R.A. He led a recent visitor to a nearby cellar, where he had hidden half a dozen M-16 rifles and a footlocker full of land mines. The cache was being held for a confederate ("I'm not sure of his name, but I think it's Casey"), who would smuggle the arms to Northern Ireland.

The bartender is one of countless Irish Americans across the country who, out of a romantic sense of patriotism for the land of their forefathers, gather money and guns for the Proves. Gunrunning is illegal: although the bulk of the arms buying is done in the Middle East, since 1973, 22 Americans have been convicted of purchasing and exporting weapons to Northern Ireland. But fund raising, even for terrorists, is not unlawful. Furthermore, any individual can carry up to $5,000 in cash out of the country without reporting it. When suspicious customs inspectors searched some passengers on a charter flight to Ireland from New York City last March, they found that no one was carrying more than $4,900. According to a British intelligence report, Americans contribute more money (an estimated $145,000 a year) to the Provisional I.R.A. than do people in any other country. The largest single U.S. source of cash, according to the report, is the New York-based Irish Northern Aid Committee (Noraid), which is headed by a former I.R.A. fighter, Michael Flannery, 77, who operates out of a small, cluttered Bronx office.

Two weeks ago, the Justice Department tried to compel Noraid to designate the Provisional wing of the I.R.A. as its "foreign principal." Noraid refused, and its attorney, former New York City Council President Paul O'Dwyer, insisted, "We won't be falsely labeled."

Noraid's leaders contend that the organization does not supply money or weapons for the Provos gunmen. They insist that the group's sole purpose is to help support the families of fighters killed or imprisoned by the British. Yet the line is a fine one, as even Flannery concedes: "Our support for their families enables them [the Provos] to make other uses of their money, so in that respect, yes, we're financing the I.R.A." Because Noraid has long been registered in the U.S. as an agent for the Irish Northern Aid Committee of Belfast, Flannery makes an accounting to the Justice Department of his organization's receipts twice a year. He says that Noraid raises about $200,000 annually and that the books he keeps account for every penny.

Because the Justice Department cannot put Noraid out of business, the Government's primary aim is to discourage contributions from Americans by forcing Flannery to acknowledge that some of the money is used for terrorism in Northern Ireland. Says a federal investigator: "Flannery would be better off standing on a soapbox shouting for money to buy guns and bricks and bombs to blow the Brits out of Northern Ireland. That would be the end of it as far as we are concerned. We would leave him alone." In fact, while donations might slow if the collectors were that candid, Noraid could not then be sued by the Justice Department for failure to disclose the real purpose of its money.

Ireland's Prime Minister, Jack Lynch, readily agrees with the Justice Department's strategy. Says he: "If those who contribute believe that their money goes to support widows and orphans, let me make it clear that it goes to make widows and orphans." While touring the U.S. last week, Lynch estimated that "something like 2%" of Ireland's population supports Provo objectives. He pleaded with Irish Americans in Chicago to "desist from giving support to these people." Said Lynch: "If Americans imagine that they are helping Ireland, they are wrong. They are doing just the opposite."

But that kind of talk does not at all dissuade the Provisional I.R.A. sympathizers who pass the hat in bars, social clubs and churches in Irish neighborhoods in the U.S. Acknowledges Alice Mulkern, a mother of three who eagerly solicits contributions in New York City: "It's not for widows and orphans. The British welfare system takes care of them. It's for the I.R.A."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946419,00.html

kallinikosdrama1992
01-02-2009, 05:22 AM
The bombardement was steel on , during New Years Eve . Isn't this too "bad" ???
Also today many foreigners are being evacuated from Gaza because of the fear that IDF will attack !!! I guess you all know that but do you believe that Israel
will attack ???

Rising Sun*
01-02-2009, 07:10 AM
Quite a bit probably - ever hear of NORAID?

I was thinking of US government support in my original comment, but if the Yankee Paddies are prepared to help me recover my ancestral Irish titles and lands, wherever they are, they'll do. :D

herman2
01-02-2009, 07:39 AM
So, when the war is over, who do you think will benefit from the reconstruction? There is always someone that benefits. Maybe **** Chennyís construction firm will be awrded the billion dollar project. Or maybe the Bin Laden Construction company?.Who knows!

kallinikosdrama1992
01-02-2009, 07:58 AM
Maybe both of them ... Who knows ???...???

pdf27
01-02-2009, 08:10 AM
I was thinking of US government support in my original comment, but if the Yankee Paddies are prepared to help me recover my ancestral Irish titles and lands, wherever they are, they'll do. :D

I'm sure this chap will be happy to help with the titles at least!
http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/The_Baron_of_Castleshort

Rising Sun*
01-02-2009, 08:28 AM
The burly bartender at a neighborhood saloon in the Queens section of New York City offers a shot of John Jameson Irish whisky to a Gaelic-looking stranger. As the visitor tosses it down, the bartender mutters a curse about "the bloody Brits"óand carefully observes the drinker's reaction. At the slightest sign of agreement, he moves in. Bluntly, and loudly enough so his other Irish-American patrons can hear, he asks the stranger for a contribution to the terrorist Provisional wing of the Irish Republican Army.

Few customers can resist the pressure: most contribute. Each week the bartender collects about $100, which he turns over to unnamed friends who deliver it "where it will do the most good." The bartender, who has never even seen Ireland but whose father was born there, also collects weapons for the Provisional I.R.A. He led a recent visitor to a nearby cellar, where he had hidden half a dozen M-16 rifles and a footlocker full of land mines. The cache was being held for a confederate ("I'm not sure of his name, but I think it's Casey"), who would smuggle the arms to Northern Ireland.

The bartender is one of countless Irish Americans across the country who, out of a romantic sense of patriotism for the land of their forefathers, gather money and guns for the Proves. Gunrunning is illegal: although the bulk of the arms buying is done in the Middle East, since 1973, 22 Americans have been convicted of purchasing and exporting weapons to Northern Ireland. But fund raising, even for terrorists, is not unlawful. Furthermore, any individual can carry up to $5,000 in cash out of the country without reporting it. When suspicious customs inspectors searched some passengers on a charter flight to Ireland from New York City last March, they found that no one was carrying more than $4,900. According to a British intelligence report, Americans contribute more money (an estimated $145,000 a year) to the Provisional I.R.A. than do people in any other country. The largest single U.S. source of cash, according to the report, is the New York-based Irish Northern Aid Committee (Noraid), which is headed by a former I.R.A. fighter, Michael Flannery, 77, who operates out of a small, cluttered Bronx office.

Two weeks ago, the Justice Department tried to compel Noraid to designate the Provisional wing of the I.R.A. as its "foreign principal." Noraid refused, and its attorney, former New York City Council President Paul O'Dwyer, insisted, "We won't be falsely labeled."

Noraid's leaders contend that the organization does not supply money or weapons for the Provos gunmen. They insist that the group's sole purpose is to help support the families of fighters killed or imprisoned by the British. Yet the line is a fine one, as even Flannery concedes: "Our support for their families enables them [the Provos] to make other uses of their money, so in that respect, yes, we're financing the I.R.A." Because Noraid has long been registered in the U.S. as an agent for the Irish Northern Aid Committee of Belfast, Flannery makes an accounting to the Justice Department of his organization's receipts twice a year. He says that Noraid raises about $200,000 annually and that the books he keeps account for every penny.

Because the Justice Department cannot put Noraid out of business, the Government's primary aim is to discourage contributions from Americans by forcing Flannery to acknowledge that some of the money is used for terrorism in Northern Ireland. Says a federal investigator: "Flannery would be better off standing on a soapbox shouting for money to buy guns and bricks and bombs to blow the Brits out of Northern Ireland. That would be the end of it as far as we are concerned. We would leave him alone." In fact, while donations might slow if the collectors were that candid, Noraid could not then be sued by the Justice Department for failure to disclose the real purpose of its money.

Ireland's Prime Minister, Jack Lynch, readily agrees with the Justice Department's strategy. Says he: "If those who contribute believe that their money goes to support widows and orphans, let me make it clear that it goes to make widows and orphans." While touring the U.S. last week, Lynch estimated that "something like 2%" of Ireland's population supports Provo objectives. He pleaded with Irish Americans in Chicago to "desist from giving support to these people." Said Lynch: "If Americans imagine that they are helping Ireland, they are wrong. They are doing just the opposite."

But that kind of talk does not at all dissuade the Provisional I.R.A. sympathizers who pass the hat in bars, social clubs and churches in Irish neighborhoods in the U.S. Acknowledges Alice Mulkern, a mother of three who eagerly solicits contributions in New York City: "It's not for widows and orphans. The British welfare system takes care of them. It's for the I.R.A."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,946419,00.html

My father was one of them, in an understandable and well-intentioned but physically harmless way, as were many of his Irish descended generation who grew up in an inter-war Australia that was still dominated by the English descended Anglicans who looked down upon the Irish Catholics, and excluded them from as much as they could, with a fair degree of success.

The wife of a mate of mine was another, but much less harmless, example of extra-Ireland supporters. We had some verbally violent debates, or just rancid quarrels, in the 1980s and 1990s, over such matters as the execution by the IRA in Holland around 1990 of two Australians mistaken by the boyos for British soldiers on leave. She callously regarded them as casualties of war, while the rest of us thought they were just murdered. She was peripherally involved in the very modest contemporary Australian equivalent of the enterprises in the quote above.

Regardless of my views about British involvement in Ireland, which overall are not sympathetic to Britain in the sweep of history there, or other matters outside Australian borders, generally I don't have much tolerance for people in my country giving material support to violence in other countries.

A lot of people come here supposedly to get away from the violence, tyranny and lack or opportunity in their former country, but some display a surprising enthusiasm for continuing support for that country once theyíre here.

Most Aussies reflect my view that you leave all that shit behind when you come here for a better life, or you can piss off back to where you came from if you want to keep it going.

Far too many migrants here, or others with a strong link with their ethnic or religious past who may have been here for generations, take a different view and want to manipulate public opinion here and our government to fight their foreign battles. Zionists / Jews and Arabs / Muslims are a perfect example over Gaza and other issues related to Israel / Palestine.

The Zionists / Jews usually win at the national level because they have the commercial and political influence, so that we end up with our substantial Arab / Muslim elements simmering with the same fury that their brethren in Gaza and in the Arab world feel over Israel.

It ainít a recipe for harmony here.

Come the revolution, when Iím the big boss, both sides will be given the choice of deciding whether they are completely loyal to Australia or something less. In the latter case, they will be given a government funded one-way ticket to something less. Which, oddly enough, is never the place they choose to live while busily sponsoring their relatives to come to Australia from something less, yet while also exercising freedoms here undreamt of in something less to berate Australia as a lousy country because it doesnít support their team in something less while demanding that we get into their ancient ancestral, tribal, and religious feuds to perpetuate the past they have chosen to flee in a country which is something less than Australia that they donít want to live in, and go quite feral when threatened with the prospect of being deported there after they've shat on the opportunities they've been given here.

As the Americans say: Go figure!

Rather more extreme than my view in its moral, but nonetheless usefully illustrative of the point is:


Aesopís Fables: The Farmer and the Viper
One winter a Farmer found a Viper frozen and numb with cold, and out of pity picked it up and placed it in his bosom. The Viper was no sooner revived by the warmth than it turned upon its benefactor and inflicted a fatal bite upon him; and as the poor man lay dying, he cried, "I have only got what I deserved, for taking compassion on so villainous a creature."

Moral: Kindness is thrown away upon the evil.

Rising Sun*
01-02-2009, 08:46 AM
I'm sure this chap will be happy to help with the titles at least!
http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/The_Baron_of_Castleshort

I am indebted to you for that link, which has thrown up "Mc Carthy Mor and Prince of Desmond" as just the man to help me reclaim most, perhaps all, of my rightful title to most of Ireland but notably Mayo, Kilkenny, Wateford and Wexford.


The Barony of Castleshort seems to have been given or sold to Shortt by one Terence McCarthy, who posed for a period as the 'McCarthy Mor and Prince of Desmond' before being outed as a Belfast con-man. McCarthy had managed to convince the Irish Chief Herald that he was the clan chief of the McCarthys and took the opportunity to coin it, by selling titles to gullible Irish-Americans, before he was exposed as a fake. 'Baronies' in Ireland were introduced by the Norman-English and are not a traditional Irish title.

I have emailed the Prince of Desmond and anticipate the imminent return of the instruments of my ancestral titles and lands, upon receipt of which I shall appoint you Keeper of the Privy.

Yours in gratitude,

Breathnach

:D

herman2
01-02-2009, 08:54 AM
I heard on the tv that the Israeli Supreme court has said it is unconstitutional to deny foreign reportes to enter Gaza for purposes of covering the War, Yet israel still denys foriegn access . When America bombed Iraq, we had embedded reporters. It seems with this war there is pure censorship, so the world doesn't get a fair or honest un bias view of the tradgedy befitting the Gaza people.

In other news, the following article from Kuwaiti News is just one of many news articles reflecting the CHOKE Hold that Israel has had on Gaza which precipitated the rocket attacks.

Israel prevents EU''s financial aid to Gaza Strip -- official

GAZA, Dec 22 (KUNA) -- The Palestinian authority is contacting European countries to mount pressure on Israel to allow transfer of funds provided by the European Union (EU) to Gaza Strip, a senior official said on Monday.
Minister of Social Affairs Dr Mahmoud Al-Habbash said, "These funds have been allocated to thousands of Palestinian families in need in Gaza Strip" -- who are sustaining severe living conditions due to the Israeli-imposed siege.
Voice of Palestine radio station quoted Al-Habbash as saying that the ministry was tasked to distribute the funds for social purposes across the West Bank through the European interim mechanism.
According to the program, the Palestinian Authority and the EU coordinate efforts to aid more than 47,000 Palestinian families, including 24,000, in Gaza Strip.
The minister revealed that the EU had told him that Israel prevented the fund transfer to the strip.
Habbash said the authority maintained contacts with the European countries and organizations to guarantee the fund deposition in the Palestinian banks and force Israel to approve the transaction that would provide basic needs to many Palestinian families.
He said that he is also trying to tackle the issue of shortage of flour, that will eventually cause the suspension of many bakeries in Gaza Strip.

Rising Sun*
01-02-2009, 09:11 AM
So, when the war is over...

How will we know when it's over?

It's been running for over sixty years, with intermittent periods of unintentional peace, while, quite reasonably, generating increasing hostility towards Israel in the Arab world. And elsewhere.

I don't think it will be over until either Israel is obliterated or Israel obliterates the Arab and Islamic worlds.

The latter seems like a task beyond Israel.

herman2
01-02-2009, 09:27 AM
How will we know when it's over?

It's been running for over sixty years, with intermittent periods of unintentional peace, while, quite reasonably, generating increasing hostility towards Israel in the Arab world. And elsewhere.

I don't think it will be over until either Israel is obliterated or Israel obliterates the Arab and Islamic worlds.

The latter seems like a task beyond Israel.

Sorry,
I meant, when the current recent influx of hostilities is over. ,,,,True True...there will never ne a Real end, unfortunately...your correct (as always)

Rising Sun*
01-02-2009, 09:32 AM
I heard on the tv that the Israeli Supreme court has said it is unconstitutional to deny foreign reportes to enter Gaza for purposes of covering the War, Yet israel still denys foriegn access . When America bombed Iraq, we had embedded reporters. It seems with this war there is pure censorship, so the world doesn't get a fair or honest un bias view of the tradgedy befitting the Gaza people.

All decent people are outraged and dismayed by the sight of dead and wounded people and especially innocents, and very much children, and the suffering those images represent for the people involved.

However, embedded reporters with US forces in Iraq were embedded precisely to avoid uncensored reports and footage of the sort which upset much of the American public during the Vietnam War. Principled journalists refused to be embedded because they weren't willing to be censored.

Whether it's Israel or Gaza, or elsewhere, in the modern world both sides usually can get their spin out to reach a reasonable audience. Indeed, where there are graphic scenes of blood, grief, bodies, and burials the victim will get the best coverage, whether or not the victim is innocent or deserving.

Judging who is right or wrong on the basis of the latest crop of bloody human mess is not a basis for judging who is right or wrong in the overall dispute. Not least because the Israelis don't publicise some of their slaughters, and indeed go out of their way to conceal them. http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5188

Drake
01-02-2009, 10:49 AM
How will we know when it's over?

It's been running for over sixty years, with intermittent periods of unintentional peace, while, quite reasonably, generating increasing hostility towards Israel in the Arab world. And elsewhere.

I don't think it will be over until either Israel is obliterated or Israel obliterates the Arab and Islamic worlds.

The latter seems like a task beyond Israel.

Let's hope we won't have to find out. I guess if Iran gets the nuke and doesn't use it this part of the world actually has a slim chance of peace in the future. But if the Iranian leadership is fanatically enough to deploy a bomb or Israel makes a military move on them first the whole region is just forever toast.

kallinikosdrama1992
01-02-2009, 11:44 AM
Well i know that the facts are talking by theirself . 1967 syria if i am not mistaken , lost the Gholan Highes in 1967 war and also Israeli enemys lost in a bad way . In 1973 also Israeli enemys again lost despite the "wins" of the first days . Why dont they attack ???
Maybe they fear an american interfier ... who knows ???
Perhaps they believe they are not able to take the fight to the Israelis , or they believe that the israelis have so much confidence and experience that they seem almost unharmed

herman2
01-02-2009, 12:10 PM
israel is a little country

why don't any arabs negihbours try to attack again like in 1973

israel is sourrrounded by egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon

1 country Vs 4 country
but sreal always win
why??

PLEASE, OH PLEASE!.....why doesn't Arabia attack Israel..Please.....
...because Israel is the most powerful country in the whol middle east. i think they even have the Atomic Bomb (A personal favourite weaopn of mine).
Israel could beat all 4 Arab countries with their left hand tied behind their back, blindfolded. (and thats just the women)!..if you put the men into battle it would be a slaughter. Those 4 countries you mentioned couldn't even attack Australia if they wanted to. Please!

kallinikosdrama1992
01-02-2009, 12:21 PM
Do you believe that Hamas missiles can destroy/hit the nuclear instalations of the Israel ???
Iran threats that will inderfier if israel attacks in Gaza

herman2
01-02-2009, 12:25 PM
Do you believe that Hamas missiles can destroy/hit the nuclear instalations of the Israel ???
Iran threats that will inderfier if israel attacks in Gaza

Hamas shoots blindly. They have absoulutely no way of guiding their missiles acurately enough to hit Nukes. israel has anti-missile blaster that wiould destroy any missiles like they way they destroyed Sadam's Scud missiles.
Iran is like a big Hot Air Ballon. It won't do anything that would cause USA to pulverise it back into the stone age (which I wish USA would do)

kallinikosdrama1992
01-02-2009, 12:32 PM
Iran is like a big Hot Air Ballon. It won't do anything that would cause USA to pulverise it back into the stone age (which I wish USA would do)


I agree with you in that . But what about the air carrier Kouznetzov that "patrols" and makes exercise in eastern Mediteranian ??? Dont you think that shows that russia is here and stands on front of the us who supports israel ???

herman2
01-02-2009, 12:42 PM
Oh please,
Half the time the Russians send out a ship, it usually sinks or falls apart. I never hear about an American ship falling apart.
Besides, is this not the ONLY Russian aircraft carrier that Russia even has (20 yrs old as it is)....USA has a dozen, so you do the math. The Kouznetzov would sink to the sea from rust by the time it see's any action. With a dozen aircraft carriers, nobody can beat USA..nobody. God Bless America!

kallinikosdrama1992
01-02-2009, 12:49 PM
Yeah god bless america the land of free and the broken . c'mon man . and both russia and america have nuclear weapons . and dont you think i dont know about the dozen carriers YOU have ... Eisenhower is my favourite but YOU have more better than that . Even if something happens we would have something like world war II between two very old allies ...

herman2
01-02-2009, 12:55 PM
I don't think America has any intentions to fight the Russians.
If America nuked Russia then where would the American strip clubs find strippers?....other than the Romaninas, the Russian girls are the only other choice, from whenever I go in!

kallinikosdrama1992
01-02-2009, 12:58 PM
Well i leave these things to those who know , but i guess the ukranians are good too ...

herman2
01-02-2009, 01:00 PM
ya, if you don't mind moustaches:)
Seriously, when the price of gas goes back up again, then you will kow that WW-3 is impending. My philosopy is, don't read the news in the morning: simply drive to work and see if the price of gas has shot up!.

kallinikosdrama1992
01-02-2009, 01:08 PM
Well you have the privilege ... thats why you do it , i dont . you see these days without school i have nothing else to do but watch the news .
What kind of work you do ??? if you dont mind to say

herman2
01-02-2009, 01:14 PM
I am a professional sanitation Engineer! (i.e. I monitor the broken bottles and shredded newspapers on the conveyor belt as they pass my inspection. It's sort of like a Homer Simpson job,LOL! ..but I take my job seriously. The other day, someone put a bottle in the paper conveyer and I had to yell at him. the next day I found a bite out of my sandwich in the lunch room. Coincidence? I think not!

kallinikosdrama1992
01-02-2009, 01:30 PM
And , for me , you do the best that you take your job seriously , i dont ...
and about the sandwich it could be a gremlin :confused::lol::confused:

Firefly
01-02-2009, 05:30 PM
I blame the Israelis, because Israel exists because the Zionists muscled into Palestine and displaced and often expelled the Palestinians who survived their invasion and ensured that the Palestinians could not return to the homeland they had occupied for millennia after the Zionists' ancestors had departed.

The current situation goes back politically most recently to Lord Balfour and short term British war aims in 1917.

Which goes back to centuries of European persecution of the Jews which encouraged the creation of Zionism.

Whch goes back to centuries of European Christian hostility to Jews.

Which goes back to Roman hostility to the Jews, notably someone called Jesus.

And so on.

Then there are current influences such as American support for Israel by a collection of wealthy American Zionists who influence American politicians but nowhere near as much as fundamentalist Christians who hold a big swag of Republican votes and who believe that Israel must be preserved to allow the second coming of Christ.

Then there are people on both or more sides of the issue who just have silly ideas. :rolleyes:

Instead of being upset about the current violence, we should just accept that that is the way of the Middle East in its current form (not unlike Europe in its form until about sixty years ago, for the time being) as, despite all the attention being devoted to Israel, the Iran-Iraq war was far worse but went almost completely unnoticed in the West while huge efforts were devoted to seeking peace in or over Israel where, comparatively, hardly anyone got hurt or killed.

Frankly, I don't care any more, as long as the West keeps out of the Middle East and lets the Arabs sort out Israel, or vice versa, once and for all.

Of course, if the Arabs sort out Israel, then we'll have to put up with something like the Iran-Iraq war again (Yes, I know that the Iranians aren't Arabs.) between whomever there.

Again, I just don't care.

Well, I do care, but I can't do anything about it, and they don't want to do anythng about it, so why not just stand back and let them all slaughter each other?

To the victor, the spoils.

I am, as the kids say nowadays, completely over it!

That sums me up. Israel has and continues to play on the holocaust to justify all and every action. The Palestinians have and continue to play on their injustices to justify their actions.

At the end of the day they are all occupying the same small space and the only people who suffer are those not in power.

They can either live together or kill each other as far as Im concerned right now and I dont really care which they choose, they are both as bad as each other and I dont see why we should waste either time or money on them as they have nothing to offer us or the world in general.

The whole ****ing lot of them could make billions from tourism if they all only realised that their sitting in the holy land and have hundreds of nice tourist spots for Arabs, Muslims and Christians to visit.

Bloody idiots!

Nickdfresh
01-04-2009, 08:02 AM
The ground incursion has begun...

Israeli ground forces launch Gaza invasion
500 Palestinians killed in just over a week; Hamas rockets slay 4 Israelis
The Associated Press
updated 7:02 a.m. ET, Sun., Jan. 4, 2009

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israeli ground troops and tanks cut swaths through the Gaza Strip early Sunday, bisecting the coastal territory and surrounding its biggest city as the new phase of a devastating offensive against Hamas gained momentum.

Thousands of soldiers in three brigade-size formations pushed into Gaza after nightfall Saturday, beginning a long-awaited ground offensive after a week of intense aerial bombardment. Black smoke billowed over Gaza City at first light and bursts of machine gun fire rang out.

TV footage showed Israeli troops with night-vision goggles and camouflage face paint marching in single file. Artillery barrages preceded their advance, and they moved through fields and orchards following bomb-sniffing dogs ensuring their routes had not been booby-trapped.

The military said troops killed or wounded dozens of militant fighters, but Palestinian medical teams in Gaza, unable to move because of the fighting, could not provide accurate casualty figures.

Hamas said only four fighters had been killed. Gaza health officials said around 20 civilians had also died in airstrikes and shelling. They included a 12-year-old girl, five members of the same family and another eight civilians killed by a tank shell in the northern Gaza town of Beit Lahiya.

500 Palestinians killed
The new deaths brought the toll in the Gaza Strip since Saturday to more than 500. Palestinian and U.N. officials say at least 100 civilians are among the dead.

Army ambulances were seen bringing Israeli wounded to a hospital in the southern Israeli city of Beersheba. The military reported 30 Israeli troops were wounded, two seriously, in the opening hours of the offensive.

In his first public comments since the ground operation was launched, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told his Cabinet on Sunday that Israel could not allow its civilians to continue to be targeted by rockets from Gaza.

"This morning I can look every one you in the eyes and say the government did everything before deciding to go ahead with the operation," he said.

A senior military officer said Hamas was well-prepared for the Israeli incursion into Gaza, a densely populated territory of 1.4 million where militants operate and easily hide in the crowded urban landscape. He said the operation was "not a rapid one that would end in hours or a few days."

Still, he said, "We have no intention of staying in the Gaza Strip for the long term." He spoke on condition of anonymity in accordance with army regulations.

Israel says the objective is to restore quiet to Israel's south, not to topple Hamas or reoccupy Gaza.

'Graveyard' for Israeli forces
Hamas threatened to turn Gaza into a "graveyard" for Israeli forces.

"You entered like rats," Hamas spokesman Ismail Radwan told Israeli soldiers in a statement on Hamas' Al Aqsa TV. "Gaza will be a graveyard for you, God willing."

The ground operation is the second phase in an offensive that began as a weeklong aerial onslaught aimed at halting Hamas rocket fire that has reached deeper and deeper into Israel, threatening major cities and one-eighth of Israel's population.

Rocket fire has persisted, however, and several rockets fell in Israel on Sunday morning, causing no casualties. In much of southern Israel school has been canceled and life has been largely paralyzed.

While the air offensive presented little risk for Israel's army, sending in ground troops is a much more dangerous proposition. Hamas is believed to have some 20,000 gunman who know the dense urban landscape intimately. For months, Israeli leaders had resisted a ground invasion, fearing heavy casualties.

Israel also has called up tens of thousands of reserve soldiers, which defense officials said could enable a far broader ground offensive as the operation's third phase. The troops could also be used in the event Palestinian militants in the West Bank or Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon decide to launch attacks. Hezbollah opened a war against Israel in 2006 when it was in the midst of a large operation in Gaza.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the military's preparations are classified.

Cut-off northern Gaza
An armored force south of Gaza City penetrated as deep as the abandoned settlement of Netzarim, which Israel left along with other Israeli communities when it pulled out of Gaza in 2005, both military officials and Palestinian witnesses said.

That move effectively cut off Gaza City, the territory's largest population center with about 400,000 people, from the rest of the territory to the south.

The offensive focused on northern Gaza, where most of the rockets are fired into Israel, but at least one incursion was reported in the southern part of the strip. Hamas uses smuggling tunnels along the southern border with Egypt to bring in weapons.

Ground forces had not entered major Gaza towns and cities by Sunday morning, instead fighting in rural communities and open areas militants often use to launch rockets and mortar rounds. Militants also fire from heavily populated neighborhoods.

Beit Lahiya was the scene of some of the heaviest fighting. An artillery shell killed eight civilians there as they were fleeing their homes to seek refuge at a nearby school, according to paramedics and Dr. Said Judeh, director of the Kamal Adwan Hospital in town.

The home of a farmer in the Beit Lahiya area was hit twice by artillery, killing a five members of one family, Judeh said.

An airstrike hit an ambulance and three medics were reported in critical condition, officials said.

Residents of the small northern Gaza community of al-Attatra said soldiers moved from house to house by blowing holes through walls. Most of the houses were unoccupied, their residents already having fled.

Hamas fires mortars, RPGs
Hamas militants fired mortar shells and rocket-propelled grenades. Field commanders communicated over walkie talkies, updating gunmen on the location of Israeli forces. Commanders told gunmen in the streets not to gather in groups and not to use cell phones.

Israel launched the air campaign against Gaza on Dec. 27 with the aim of halting militant rocket attacks on its south. The operation appears to have slowed, but not halted the rocket fire. Israeli police said 13 rockets landed Sunday, lightly wounding one person.

Hundreds of rockets have hit Israel so far, and four Israelis have been killed. Warning sirens give residents notice of incoming militant rockets and allow them to take cover.

The decision to send ground troops into Gaza was taken after Hamas kept up its rocket fire despite the aerial assault, government officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because discussions leading up to wartime decisions are confidential.

U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon conveyed his "extreme concern and disappointment" to Olmert and called for an immediate end to the operation, according to a U.N. statement Sunday.

Denunciations also came from the French government, which unsuccessfully proposed a two-day truce earlier this week, and from Egypt, which brokered the six-month truce whose breakdown preceded the Israeli offensive.

But the U.S. has put the blame squarely on Hamas. White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said U.S. officials have been in regular contact with the Israelis as well as officials from countries in the region and Europe.

At an emergency consultation of the U.N. Security Council on Saturday night, the U.S. blocked approval of a statement demanded by Arab countries that would have called for an immediate cease-fire. U.S. deputy ambassador Alejandro Wolff said the U.S. believed that such a statement "would not be adhered to and would have no underpinning for success, (and) would not do credit to the council."

Hamas began to emerge as Gaza's main power broker when it won Palestinian parliamentary elections three years ago. It has ruled the impoverished territory since seizing control from forces loyal to moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in June 2007.


© 2009 The Associated Press.

MSNBC (ttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28404637/)

Rising Sun*
01-04-2009, 08:44 AM
A pity the Western press didn't devote the same space to the aggressive incursions into Palestinian territory of the rabid Israeli settlers for decades and the more recent economic stranglehold placed on Gaza by Israel by controlling everything that goes in and out, both of which are significant conntributors to the current situation.

Not so many years ago I found this attitude highly offensive, and indeed had some difficult moments with a local lefty who espoused this view, but lately I'm beginning to think that the time is coming to push the Israelis back into the sea.

Whether that will change anything in a region which has become acclimatised to violence, and violence based on various religious, ethnic, tribal and gender bases long unrelated to the present situation is highly debatable, but at least it will be a conflict free of the absurd importance Western powers attach to the survival of the bullying mongrel state known as Israel which has spent the past sixty years demanding everything from everyone and shitting on everyone who gives it what it demands while giving nothing in return.

While it has to be recognised that there has long been an element of domestic and international opposition by Israelis and Jews to the aggressive policies of the Israeli government and its military forces, it should also be recognised that there is a disturbing element of rabid hostilty by some Israeli and Jewish extremists (notably the settlers) to everyone not like them. This produces a form of worship of evil acts and the people who perfomed them, such as http://www.geocities.com/dr_b_goldstein/kever.htm ,which makes the Japanese memorials and ceremonies honouring their war criminals seem rather tame.

kallinikosdrama1992
01-06-2009, 12:05 PM
I voted that it's Hamas fault that there is war now in the East but i think now the mistakes are from the side of israel . They now bombed a UN school . What did they thing that hamas has hidden missiles in there ???

colonel hogan
01-06-2009, 08:06 PM
all i know is that i support my countries allies which israel is one

kallinikosdrama1992
01-07-2009, 04:42 AM
all i know is that i support my countries allies which israel is one

So it's like saying , that if Nazi Germany was your country's ally you would support them too ???

Rising Sun*
01-07-2009, 05:43 AM
all i know is that i support my countries allies which israel is one

I don't know what country you're in, but, first, identify the alliance treaty between Israel and your country; second, tell us when Israeli troops have gone outside Israel to stand with your troops in battle; third, name three positive things Israel has done for your country; and, fourth, for any other country

As far as I'm aware all Israel has ever done is take, take, take, and whinge, whinge, whinge, and give nothing back except intransigence and resultant endless international conflict and problems.

Drake
01-07-2009, 12:00 PM
Israel could wipe out the arabs in gaza in no time, so comparing them to the nazis is still nothing more than badly disguised antisemitism.
RS, your observations about the whining etc are right on target, but they apply to the muslim world in general and the palestineans in particular as well.

kallinikosdrama1992
01-07-2009, 02:51 PM
Israel could wipe out the arabs in gaza in no time, so comparing them to the nazis is still nothing more than badly disguised antisemitism.
RS, your observations about the whining etc are right on target, but they apply to the muslim world in general and the palestineans in particular as well.

so what you're asying about the wiping out is not any nazi thing ???

pdf27
01-07-2009, 03:00 PM
so what you're asying about the wiping out is not any nazi thing ???
No, he's saying that the Israelis have easily got the capability of exterminating the population of the Gaza Strip, and had they been behaving like Nazis they would have done so.

kallinikosdrama1992
01-07-2009, 03:19 PM
Oh ok . So , if they are able to destroy gaza they do it . Well what you think , is
this conflict able to unite all the units of the arab world such like Hesbolah , Hamas , Al Qaida and any other unknown ???

pdf27
01-07-2009, 03:36 PM
Oh ok . So , if they are able to destroy gaza they do it . Well what you think , is
this conflict able to unite all the units of the arab world such like Hesbolah , Hamas , Al Qaida and any other unknown ???
Not flaming likely - if they did so, most of these organisations would be running and hiding if they really thought Israel would do to them what Rome did to Carthage.

Rising Sun*
01-07-2009, 07:13 PM
RS, your observations about the whining etc are right on target, but they apply to the muslim world in general and the palestineans in particular as well.

Fair point, but so far as Israel and the Palestinians are concerned, Israel is the only party which can do something to rectify the dispossession of the Palestinians, but it has long been Israeli policy that it will never do so.

Conversely, so far as Israel, the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world are concerned, it's Israel and the rest of the Arab world who can do something to correct the situation. But it suits the Arabs' anti-Israel purposes to keep the Palestinians in limbo in the so-called refugee camps, which are rather more substantial than some of the housing in other parts of the Arab world. So it will just go on forever, with the Israelis and Arabs as bad as each other, and the poor bloody Palestinians sandwiched in the middle.

Schuultz
01-08-2009, 09:38 AM
It will go on for a long time, that's for sure. The big thing is that many Arab governments need Israel in order for themselves to stay in power. As long as they have a visible 'foe' they can rally their people against, they can stay in power, and religious fury will keep reasonable thinkers at bay.

In other words, I sometimes wonder if that entire debacle isn't a single catch 22... If you want to support Israel, you'll have to live with the fact that extremist governments will be able to stay in power in other Arab countries and keep rallying against Israel, even though they might not actually do anything.
If you want a moderate Middle East, you'd need to either get rid of Israel, which would be outrageous, no matter how young the country is, or create a compromise all parties can live with - something politicians all over the world have tried and failed at for over 60 years...

Anybody agree?

Drake
01-08-2009, 02:53 PM
So it will just go on forever, with the Israelis and Arabs as bad as each other, and the poor bloody Palestinians sandwiched in the middle.

Yeah, it'll probably go on for some time to come. But I think the issue will resolve itself in this century, one way or another. You have the triarchy of a human population overshoot, peak everything which is non regenerative ressource related and the massive stress we already put on the biosphere, which will certainly come back to haunt us, though we are good at ignoring it.
Things like topsoil erosion, loss of biodiversity and biomass and general pollution just spell disaster in the long run, you can even ignore climate change for that. We have pushed basically all edible fish close to the inflection point where it will suddenly seem disappear from one year to another and take a decade to recover to fishable levels.
A good analogy is a computer cluster. We have a load on all systems close to capacity. When (not if) one system breaks down it'll take all the others with them in a cascade and my guess is that's what's going to happen rather sooner than later.

Thus my prediction of the unfortunatly not so distant future, 2 decades maybe:
The political or religious quarrels all over this planet will be resolved quickly and bloody once the situation gets bad enough for everyone.

kallinikosdrama1992
01-12-2009, 03:46 AM
Hey guys , what you think ??? Last phase of the operations in the war ???

Rising Sun*
01-12-2009, 04:52 AM
Hey guys , what you think ??? Last phase of the operations in the war ???

No, just another phase in a war which so far has lasted for about sixty years, or more if you include the guerrilla war, and shows no sign of ending in the foreseeable future.

Panzerknacker
01-12-2009, 06:01 AM
Not pretending to be anti-jewish here but looking at CNN is shocking the amount of White phosphorous ammunition used by the IDF over Gaza.

Rising Sun*
01-12-2009, 06:38 AM
Not pretending to be anti-jewish here but looking at CNN is shocking the amount of White phosphorous ammunition used by the IDF over Gaza.

Why limit it to that?

The Israelis have cordoned the people in Gaza and are bombarding them when they have no means of escape (after previously being screwed by the Israelis economically and otherwise by being cordoned in Gaza).

If the IDF troops go in, it's not much different to the Warsaw ghetto in principle, even if it might be in degree. Not that the self-centred, arrogant, and perpetually whingeing Israeli leadership could ever see that, despite basing the whole of Israel's justification for existence on such events which occurred outside and had nothing to do with Palestine but which somehow justified dispossessing the Palestinians to compensate the Zionists / Jews for centuries of oppression and slaughter in Europe. That makes sense, doesn't it?

It's just all part of the broad spectrum of political bullshit anyway, like most wars.

Q. Why has Israel suddenly decided to get tough about the Hamas rockets which it has tolerated for years?

A. Because an election is looming, accelerated to February 2009 by some unexpected internal Israeli political events instead of the scheduled 2010. And: Lo and Behold! All of a sudden Hamas has to be dealt with.

It's no different to Western politicians suddenly declaring a war on crime or drugs or whatever when they've done bugger all about it for the preceding years while in government and then beating the biggest drum they can find to get them back in for another term of bugger all.

A pox on the lot of them.

And pity for the poor bloody Palestinians, who are in the Middle East now as Jews were in Europe from time to time long before Hitler arrived.

Schuultz
01-12-2009, 07:11 AM
Anybody else think it's funny they call themselves Israeli Defense Forces, or is that just a very pacifist translation of the Hebrew name?

And the comparison to the Warsaw Ghetto appears to me as frustratingly fitting - if any people should know better, then the Jews, especially since many Holocaust survivors in fact moved to Israel. Sadly, this is another showcase that power corrupts...

It is somewhat sad to see that the Jews and Muslims seem to have become bitter enemies - especially considering the Muslims have historically treated them a lot better than most Christian nations - The English Expulsion and Persecution of Jews, the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust come to mind...

Rising Sun*
01-12-2009, 07:52 AM
As with most things, one shouldn't stereotype people.

I have a problem with Zionists, Zionist Israelis, Zionist Jews, fundamentalist Christians who believe Israel must be supported to ensure the second coming of Christ, and everyone else who supports Israel's intransigence and belligerence or who is just a supporter of absurd and harmful beliefs and actions.

I do not, however, have a problem with Jews per se.

I'm not alone in that, as there is a similar and much more bitter division between Jews here and internationally, although the Zionists generally have the upper hand as they're the ones with political and social influence among Jewish communities in the West.


Australian Jews protest against Israel's action
Andrew West and Jonathan Pearlman
January 6, 2009


MORE than 100 Australian Jews, including two award-winning novelists and a former federal cabinet minister, have signed a statement condemning Israel's siege of Gaza, heightening tensions within the local Jewish community over the violence.

The Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, meanwhile called yesterday for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza but refused to criticise the Israeli offensive.

Authors Linda Jaivin and Sara Dowse, the environment minister in the Whitlam government, Moss Cass, and the NSW Greens leader, Ian Cohen, are among 120 Australian Jews to accuse the Israeli Government of a "grossly disproportionate military assault on Gaza because it was Israel that violated the fragile truce on November 4, 2008".

Their statement has provoked a backlash from leaders of Australia's main Jewish groups, who argue that Israel is acting in self-defence.

The statement was co-ordinated, but not endorsed, by the group Independent Australian Jewish Voices. It is part of an international outcry from dissident Jewish groups, including J Street in the US and Gush Shalom in Israel.

The signatories agree that Israel has a right to defend itself but say "the assault on the population of Gaza will only inflame hatred of Jews, and of the state of Israel, while doing nothing to protect the lives of Israelis".

They argue that "crude home-made rockets" fired by the Hamas-led government in Gaza have caused relatively few Israeli casualties. "By contrast, Israeli bombardment has caused around 400 deaths and 2000 casualties, including a large proportion of women and children."

Other signatories include the controversial anti-Zionist writer Antony Loewenstein, the literary critic Andrew Riemer, and academics Andrew Benjamin, Gavin Kitching, David Goodman and Michele Grossman.

"This is a solid minority of leading Jewish figures who are sick and tired of being told what Jews should think about Israel and are appalled by Israel's crimes in Gaza," Mr Loewenstein said.

But the executive director of the Australia/Israel and Jewish Affairs Council, Colin Rubenstein, accused the signatories of being "indifferent to Israel's suffering" from repeated rocket attacks from Hamas.

"The comments are grossly ill informed, almost stunning in their ignorance, on the history of the ceasefire and its subsequent breakdown, Hamas's demands, Hamas's constitution, Hamas's willingness to negotiate and other matters," Dr Rubenstein said.

"They propose that the population of southern Israel must continue to live under constant rocket bombardment, opposing all practical efforts to actually invoke the right to self-defence the signatories say they recognise."

The head of the NSW Jewish Board of Deputies, Vic Alhadeff, declined to comment directly on the dissenters' statement but also blamed the crisis in Gaza on Hamas, saying it had fired more than 8000 rockets and mortars into Israel since 2001.

"All the civilian casualties are a tragedy. They stem from the fact that Hamas cynically locates its weapons and fighters in the midst of the Palestinian civilian population," he said.

In his first comments on the conflict after a 10-day holiday, Mr Rudd appealed for a diplomatic solution that would bring an end to Hamas rocket fire and the Israeli blockade of the territory.

"All Australians are concerned about the humanitarian implications of this conflict.

"And it is critical therefore for Israel to meet its humanitarian obligations under international humanitarian law towards the people of Gaza, in ensuring that they have access to basic goods, food and humanitarian assistance and medical supplies," he said. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2009/01/05/1231003936981.html


Not unusually, I'm pissed off with whoever the current Australian Prime Minister happens to be (I know who he is, but they're about all the same on this point) for doing the usual pro-Zionist neutral or supportive comment. Our Prime Ministers, from both parties, know where their party's donations come from and they're not stupid enough to choke that particular golden goose, the weak unprincipled little turds they are, just like every politician forced to choose between principle and the path to power.

A pox on the lot of them.

Almost makes me begin to wonder how it is that the world continues on the same sorry path year after year when we have politicians running it. :rolleyes:

The Israeli governments have consistently served the same function for Israelis and wider Jews as the Dubya government has for Americans: they have each squandered the massive goodwill of the rest of the world, generated by unfair attacks upon them by fanatics, by being arrogant and belligerent in trampling upon the rights and basic humanity of those who oppose their continuing arrogance and belligerence.

A pox on the lot of them.

Nickdfresh
01-12-2009, 08:54 AM
**Reprinted from a post I made at another board.

The central problem is this - that Israel has killed between 800 and 900 Palestinians (I can't keep up with the death toll) to about four Israelis killed by rockets and is still f@(king creating "Holocaust" menageries in their museums featuring Hamas Rocket parts which is almost comical and sickening at the same time. Not only are they insulting the intelligences of thinking adults, they're also effectively spitting on the collective grave of Holocaust victims with such trite bullshatting..

While Israel's actions are nowhere near Nazi Germany's in scale and severity, parallels still exist. Those being the use of reprisals and collective punishment of civilians. While I do not think Israel specifically targets civilians to kill them, I think there is little weight given to their lives and the mentality definitely resembles that of the Aryan "master race" culling the impure "inferior races."

On NBC News, there was a story of how two Palestinian infants were later found (still alive miraculously) in rubble clinging to their dead mothers for FOUR DAYS after their homes had been bombed and demolished. The area had been surrounded by IDF troops for that time and they REFUSED to allow the Red Cross in to check and clear the area of wounded and dead. To me, this seems like the height of callousness and disregard for human life that makes them no better than the Hamas "terrorists" they're fighting. Especially given the fact that the IDF, like many other contemporary militaries around the world, started at least partially as a terrorist group that used bombings and assassinations to achieve their ends...

Nickdfresh
01-12-2009, 09:05 AM
Money collected in the United States (principally in the North-East, among the "Irish" community) on behalf of the IRA. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORAID .
There is a fair bit else along those lines going on - granting of political asylum to escaped murderers springs to mind as well.

To be fair though, a key aspect for the support of NORAID was the obvious collusion (in the past) between factions of British intelligence and the old RUC with Protestant paramilitaries/terrorists...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/2955941.stm

I'm not trying to start a pissing match here, nor am I in any way apologizing for NORAID. I in fact basically chased one of those guys out of a local (pseudo)"Irish" pub years ago on the eve of a St. Paddy's day by confronting him with his propagandist, and again "pseudo," history...

Nickdfresh
01-12-2009, 09:24 AM
I am indebted to you for that link, which has thrown up "Mc Carthy Mor and Prince of Desmond" as just the man to help me reclaim most, perhaps all, of my rightful title to most of Ireland but notably Mayo, Kilkenny, Wateford and Wexford.



I have emailed the Prince of Desmond and anticipate the imminent return of the instruments of my ancestral titles and lands, upon receipt of which I shall appoint you Keeper of the Privy.

Yours in gratitude,

Breathnach

:D

Jim Shortt=P.O.S.

Nickdfresh
01-12-2009, 09:34 AM
Commentary | AIPAC
'Israel Lobby' bad for Israel, the U.S.

BY RABBI BRUCE WARSHAL

Oh my God, someone has publicly outed the "Israel Lobby." For those readers who do not closely follow the machinations in academia, let me explain. John Walt, the academic dean of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, and John Mearsheimer, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, have written a blistering critique of the Jewish lobby, focusing primarily on AIPAC.

Their main complaint is that "the thrust of US policy in the region (the Middle East) derives almost entirely from domestic politics, and especially the activities of the 'Israel Lobby'." There is much with which to disagree in the paper, including their assertion that Israel is not a vital strategic asset (there are many generals who would challenge that assertion). But there is also much truth, if we would only be honest with ourselves.

The usual suspects have jumped on the bandwagon, not merely to criticize but to condemn the paper in vitriolic words. Rep. Eliot Engel, a Democrat who represents the Bronx, declared it "anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist drivel." This is somewhat ironic since one of the complaints of Walt and Mearsheimer is that anyone who criticizes Israel is automatically labeled anti-Semitic. The ubiquitous Alan Dershowitz accused the authors of cribbing from neo-Nazi Web sites, which was a sophisticated way of tarnishing them as anti-Semites without using the phrase. The right-wing New York Sun called it a "scandal" and warned that if Harvard is not careful, "the Kennedy School will become known as Bir Zeit on the Charles."

The Forward was most responsible. Before writing an extensive critical analysis of the paper it acknowledged that "the authors are not fringe gadflies but two of America's most respected foreign-affairs theorists. ... Though it's tempting, they can't be dismissed as cranks outside the mainstream. They are the mainstream."

I agree with Walt and Mearsheimer that AIPAC controls our American government policy toward Israel. But in their paper the two political scientists point out that, "In its basic operations, the Israel Lobby is no different from the farm lobby, steel or textile workers' unions, or other ethnic lobbies. There is nothing improper about American Jews and their Christian allies attempting to sway US policy; the Lobby's activities are not a conspiracy of the sort depicted in tracts like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion."

Coming from South Florida, I am acutely aware that our government policy toward Cuba is dictated by the Cuban Lobby. Why else would we have such an absurd opposition to Castro? If we can make peace with Red China and the "evil empire" of the Soviet Union, why do we continue an embargo against an obscure Communist island, if it were not for domestic political pressure? So it is with the Jewish domestic lobby. My complaint is that the self-appointed Jewish leaders who control AIPAC and other positions of power within the Jewish community do not represent the best interests of Jews, Israel or the United States in the long run.

Let's zero in on AIPAC. It is controlled by right-wing, rich Jewish neo-conservatives. As one manifestation of the truth of this assertion one merely has to look at its annual meeting this past month. At a time when Vice President Cheney's popularity has dropped below 20 percent, the 4,500 delegates to the AIPAC convention gave him a standing ovation for almost a minute before he even opened his mouth and then proceeded to give him 48 rounds of applause in a 35-minute speech. (As my colleague Leonard Fein pointed out, that's once every 43.7 seconds). Considering that 75 percent of American Jews voted for Kerry, it is obvious that these people are out of the mainstream of Jewish thought.

At the same conference, preceding the recent Israeli elections, these delegates were addressed by Ehud Olmert (Kadima), Amir Peretz (Labor) and Benjamin Netanyahu (Likud) by video link from Israel. Olmert and Peretz received polite applause. The AIPAC delegates cheered enthusiastically for Netanyahu, especially when he presented his hard line that was overwhelmingly rejected by the Israeli electorate. Once a great organization, today AIPAC does not even represent the feelings of the average Israeli, let alone the average American Jew.

This American Jewish neo-conservatism is unhealthy not only for America but for Israel as well. A prime example: The Israeli press reports that Israel is trying to find a way to deal with the Palestinians while not dealing with Hamas. Official public statements aside, they realize that they cannot cut off all contacts with the Palestinians and that the world cannot discontinue financial help; otherwise Israel will find a million starving Palestinians on its border, and this will not lead to peace or security for Israel. Privately, the Israeli government was against the Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act (the Ross-Lehtinen-Lantos bill) which recently passed the House of Representatives. It would cut off all American contacts with the Palestinian Authority, even with its president Mahmoud Abbas, who is a moderate seeking peace. Despite Israel's private reservations, AIPAC not only pushed this bill, it was instrumental in writing it. Even though the AIPAC candidate lost in Israel, he won in the U.S. House of Representatives. Hopefully, the Senate and the White House will correct this.

Beware that you are reading treasonable material. If you "out" the Israeli lobby and you are Gentile, you're branded an anti-Semite; if you are Jewish, you're obviously a self-hating Jew. The Jewish establishment abides no criticism of Israel. You don't agree with me? Take this example: Last month a pro-Palestinian play entitled My Name is Rachel Corrie was to open at the New York Theatre Workshop, a "progressive" company on East Fourth Street. The play is based on the writings of a young British girl who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer when she was protesting the demolition of Palestinian homes in Gaza two years ago. Although the play was widely praised in London last year, it never opened in New York. The theater producers spoke to the ADL and other Jewish leaders, including big-money Jews on its board, and that was the end of that. But, of course, we don't "censor" discussion concerning Israel. We just politely give our opinions and the voice of the other side disappears.

Another example: 400 rabbis, including myself, signed a letter sponsored by Brit Tzedek v'Shalom that appeared in the Forward this past month. It was a mildly liberal statement that proclaimed that "we are deeply troubled by the recent victory of Hamas," but went on to urge "indirect assistance to the Palestinian people via NGO's, with the appropriate conditions to ensure that it does not reach the hands of terrorists." Pretty mild stuff. Yet pulpit rabbis across this country who signed the letter have reported a concerted effort to silence them. The letter has been branded a "piece of back-stabbing abandonment of the Jews of Israel." Synagogue boards have been pressured to silence their rabbis by that loose coalition called the "Israel Lobby."

Just another example of the Jewish establishment stifling any discussion of Israel that does not conform to the neo-conservative tenets of AIPAC and its cohorts. Beware of these self-appointed guardians of Israel and Jewish values. In the end they will destroy everything that makes Judaism a compassionate religion, and if in their zeal they do not destroy Israel, they certainly will not make it more secure.

Link (http://www.stljewishlight.com/commentaries/286061544108230.php)

"John Walt, the academic dean of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, and John Mearsheimer, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, have written a blistering critique of the Jewish lobby, focusing primarily on AIPAC." This can be found here as a PDF document. (http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0042.pdf)

Schuultz
01-12-2009, 09:50 AM
[i]
The central problem is this - that Israel has killed between 800 and 900 Palestinians (I can't keep up with the death toll) to about four Israelis killed by rockets and is still f@(king creating "Holocaust" menageries in their museums featuring Hamas Rocket parts which is almost comical and sickening at the same time. Not only are they insulting the intelligences of thinking adults, they're also effectively spitting on the collective grave of Holocaust victims with such trite bullshatting..

While Israel's actions are nowhere near Nazi Germany's in scale and severity, parallels still exist. Those being the use of reprisals and collective punishment of civilians. While I do not think Israel specifically targets civilians to kill them, I think there is little weight given to their lives and the mentality definitely resembles that of the Aryan "master race" culling the impure "inferior races."

On NBC News, there was a story of how two Palestinian infants were later found (still alive miraculously) in rubble clinging to their dead mothers for FOUR DAYS after their homes had been bombed and demolished. The area had been surrounded by IDF troops for that time and they REFUSED to allow the Red Cross in to check and clear the area of wounded and dead. To me, this seems like the height of callousness and disregard for human life that makes them no better than the Hamas "terrorists" they're fighting. Especially given the fact that the IDF, like many other contemporary militaries around the world, started at least partially as a terrorist group that used bombings and assassinations to achieve their ends...

True, but I doubt Israel organizes these Holocaust memorials, but I doubt it's out of ignorance/arrogance. I consider them doing that pretty well calculated.
By keeping the Holocaust a main factor, and claiming that the Palestinians want to do the same thing to them, they pretty much shut up the western nations at the same time as they convince uninformed people for their cause.

There are some major differences between the Holocaust and the Arab intentions for Israel, aside the technological means and "efficiency".

While the Holocaust was an event rooted in a deep, pretty much unfounded hate for Jews, the Arab hate for Israel is, depending on the point of view, pretty comprehensible.

Palestinians had their land taken away, not only once when Israel was created, but continuously throughout the last half of the century through Israeli settlements on Arab land, which was immediately annexed into Israel. In the ensuing war(s), Israel captured and annexed more land, including the "Holy City", Jerusalem.
Arabs were sent into locations that can be described as anything between Ghettos and Reservoirs.
The low-casualty missile attacks by Arab terrorists were, and currently once again are, countered with disproportionate Israeli military onslaughts with huge casualties on the Arab site, which aren't reluctant to raid into neutral foreign countries, too.

Are these overreactions caused by an Israeli paranoia of another Holocaust or simply by a militaristic regime? That's something one can argue about, but what's clear is that, in the recent years, these neutral nations have been relatively tolerant of these attacks, and aside of anti-Semitic talk, have restrained from military actions (Probably because they know they wouldn't win, as the West would not accept a destruction of Israel).

Also, did you notice how I restrained from saying Jews, and preferred to use Israel instead? That's because this is another one of my arguments.

The current crisis aside, I highly doubt that the Muslim world really hates Jews per se. It is more the institution of the Israeli state on what they perceive as their territory that pisses them off.
If it wasn't for Israel, I am more than sure the Muslim world wouldn't mind them, just the same way they didn't mind them over the last two millennium.

Panzerknacker
01-12-2009, 12:04 PM
Why limit it to that?

The Israelis have cordoned the people in Gaza and are bombarding them when they have no means of escape (after previously being screwed by the Israelis economically and otherwise by being cordoned in Gaza).



I have no response in regard of the political questions, is a conflict that is alien to me, probably if somebody forced me to choose in wich side I am I would choose the Israeli side, as you might know I havent any good feeling toward the muslims.

My remark in regard of the use of WP shell was because that type of ammunition cover a large area when airburst ( like the one used in this days) so you cannot argue "surgical precision" with that.

Drake
01-12-2009, 01:36 PM
Mohammed himself killed plenty of jews. He even made a detour on one of his raids specifically to kill them. Since their prophet is their role model in every aspect the muslims would really hate jews even without israel.
And the muslims all over europe clearly demonstrate their generally peaceful attitude on occasions like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp-lwSe2llg&eurl=http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024365.php

http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/01/10/nyheter/demonstrasjon/oslo/innenriks/vold/4325433/

or the plethora of similar examples from europe.

And while they cry out loud about 900 dead palestineans no one even ever mentions the tens of thousands who are actually being systematically killed by muslim hordes in darfur or nigeria or anywhere else they are. Muslims are a bunch of hypocritical jokes, bad ones for that matter.

And here is a little reminder to those fools of you who think there could be any common ground in the long run with likes of hamas (or in my very personal opinion: any muslims) of what they can expect for themselves or their descendants as a result of their foolishness:

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/Hamas_bombs_Gaza_Israel/2009/01/09/169756.html

Schuultz
01-12-2009, 02:02 PM
Mohammed himself killed plenty of jews. He even made a detour on one of his raids specifically to kill them. Since their prophet is their role model in every aspect the muslims would really hate jews even without israel.
And the muslims all over europe clearly demonstrate their generally peaceful attitude on occasions like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp-lwSe2llg&eurl=http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/024365.php

http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/01/10/nyheter/demonstrasjon/oslo/innenriks/vold/4325433/

or the plethora of similar examples from europe.

And while they cry out loud about 900 dead palestineans no one even ever mentions the tens of thousands who are actually being systematically killed by muslim hordes in darfur or nigeria or anywhere else they are. Muslims are a bunch of hypocritical jokes, bad ones for that matter.

And here is a little reminder to those fools of you who think there could be any common ground in the long run with likes of hamas (or in my very personal opinion: any muslims) of what they can expect for themselves or their descendants as a result of their foolishness:

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/Hamas_bombs_Gaza_Israel/2009/01/09/169756.html

Ok, if the Muslims really hated Jews sooo much because their religion told them so, why did they repeatedly allow Jews to take refugee in their countries, mainly the Ottoman Empire, over the last 2000 years, whenever the Jews were persecuted in Christian Europe?

Especially the Ottoman Empire needed Jews to finance their wars against Christianity, as they forced them to pay a comparatively high tax, at the same time however offering them protection from prosecution.

Of course there were attacks on Jews in Muslim nations back then, too, but they never - to my (relatively limited) knowledge - reached the scale of Christian European antisemitism.

What you see nowadays is the hate of a (rightfully) infuriated Muslim world at the often arbitrary military and economic actions of the state of Israel. Sadly, many of these guys don't seem to be able to realize who they actually hate, so they just go for the entire Jewry at once, with Israel doing relatively little to appease them, and rather arrogantly threatening them.

Panzerknacker
01-12-2009, 04:17 PM
By the way when I wrote:


My remark in regard of the use of WP shell was because that type of ammunition cover a large area when airburst ( like the one used in this days) so you cannot argue "surgical precision" with that.

I mean:



My remark in regard of the use of WP shell was because that type of ammunition cover a large area when airburst ( like the one used in this days) so you cannot claim surgical precision with that

Schuultz
01-12-2009, 09:16 PM
It's a question of definitions, Panzerknacker ;)

Maybe, when the Israeli Military High Command says "Surgical Precision", they don't mean they try only to hit terrorist/military targets, but rather, they try to get ever single human being in the area, no matter where they are hiding.

If they go for the latter definition, then yes, Incendiary artillery shells probably are the way to go, short of ABC weaponry and carpet bombing...

Panzerknacker
01-13-2009, 04:09 PM
Well...I dont know about that, but definately is not the kind of weapons that can make a lot you friends overseas.
But I guess the IDF is in a point of no return, and dont care any other opinion than his own perception of the situation in Gaza.

Uyraell
02-13-2009, 12:22 PM
This is the ONE and only Time I intend to post on this particular thread.

There is a white elephant sitting in the room, as it has since 1923, and NO modern government wishes to acknowledge nor be reminded of its' glaring presence, which they collectively re-inforce ongoing ignorance of.

There IS NO such thing as a "Palestinian".

The being does NOT infact exist.

"Palestine" along with Iran and Iraq were a convenient fabrication, mainly by France and the UK, for their own capitalist economic interests.
The then King Faisal of Saudi Arabia (not without commercial motive it is true, but this could easily have functioned well: it had, before) Offered to administer the region in Trust-Perpetual FOR Britain and France (and to a lesser degree the USA) without "Palestine" ever being created.

There never is, nor was, a specific "Palestinian" race.

What there was, and remains, is a broadly coalesced grouping of descendants of slaves of Pharoahs, thrown out of Egypt in its' periodic famines, and force-migrated northwards. In subsequent centuries, that population group is absorbed into what becomes the Muslim world.

If anything, at this remove in time, that same population is Arab. Period.

One then has to ask why it is that the Arab world finds it so convenient to not absorb their own "cousins" into their own domestic populations.

The only thing the "Founding of the State of Israel" achieved in 1948 was the overturning of a deliberately artificial construct in the first place.
That that action also became the beginnings of the end of the Diaspora for the Jews themselves in no way excuses the local Arabs from caring for their own cousins, which actions the local Arab nations have consistently refused in all but the most minimal manner.

Wherefore, while certain elements of the population of Israel certainly have not done much to earn the goodwill of the nearer Arab Muslim nations, by that same token nor have those same Arab nations done anything significant in aid of their own kin.

In the early stages (1948) , the reason is obvious; ready-made cannonfodder to throw infront of Israeli guns.
That said supply of cannonfodder continues to this day is mere pragmatism on the part of those geographically near Arab nations.
_______________________________________________

Having outlined what I have above, I make My final points.

I am NOT "Pro Israel" NOR "Pro Arab".
In racial terms, I see Jew and Muslim as the same thing : HUMAN.

However, while Israel in part at least risks being as bad as the place it was founded to forget : Let it be remembered : the Arab nations have routinely been every atom as bad, and for less reason.

Neither grouping is truly at fault, both can, and must learn co-existance at a decent and peaceful level, and the wider Arab/Muslim world should reign-in those of its' own members who would disrupt that process.

Transmission ENDS.
__________________________________________________ __

Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

Schuultz
02-13-2009, 01:51 PM
You make a lot of valid points, Uryaell, but I'll have to disagree on one part:

It is true that the entire most middle eastern nations we know today weren't nations before the end of WW1, they were all a part of the Ottoman Empire.

But this is exactly why the entire Arab world is so appalled by the Israeli state. They not only feel like Israel took the land from a neighbor, but in fact a part of themselves, a feeling that was a lot stronger back in 1948 than it is even today.

Why don't they assimilate the 'Palestinians' into their own ranks? Because they believe/hope the fugitive camps remain a temporary necessity, and that these people will be able to return to their homes again soon.

Why are the 'Palestinians' so adamant that they want to go back exactly where they come from? Because the Britons had promised them their own country, to be called Palestine, in return for them fighting the Ottomans in WW1 (Lawrence of Arabia), and they feel they have the right to it.

In fact, the Israeli Jews aren't as united as they might make us want to believe. A lot of the 'Old Jews', that lived in Palestine for Generations before the creation of Israel oppose the new Regime, as they, too, consider themselves Palestinian, not Israeli.
Sadly those Jews will be the losers no matter how the conflict ends. They are harassed in Israel for opposing the Regime, and they will be harassed in a new Palestine, for being Jewish. (something they hadn't been harassed for in the old Palestine/Ottoman Empire, but will be now simply because of Israel)

pdf27
02-13-2009, 02:39 PM
(something they hadn't been harassed for in the old Palestine/Ottoman Empire, but will be now simply because of Israel)
Umm..... this would be why the Jizya was only abolished by the Ottomans in 1856? It is NOT true to say that Jews were not harassed under the Ottomans - rather they merely suffered less persecution than under some other rulers.

Schuultz
02-13-2009, 05:54 PM
They were a lot less harassed in the Ottoman Empire than in Europe...

turkishwolf
06-28-2012, 05:41 PM
Jews were most comfortable nation in the Ottoman Empire.
Who saved them in 1492 from spain When christian kingdom started to kill to arabs and jews there? Ottoman saved jews by ships and they came to Anatolia. They become citizen and so rich.Coz Turkish and muslims couldnt be rich in the Ottoman Empire.It was a kind of rule.Turkish people could be farmer or soldier.But there were no limit for jews and christiand in Ottoman Empire.

I can say that honestly; all craftsmans (jeweller, tailor adv) were armenian
All bankers, businessman were jews.

So they lived and still live in Anatolia in peace.
Problem is that when Ottoman felt down and go back to Anatolia from the middle east, Chaos started there. Some emperialist countries designated borders with ruler as they wanted.

Chevan
06-28-2012, 11:24 PM
This American Jewish neo-conservatism is unhealthy not only for America but for Israel as well.
So we have come back to what we've started from!;)
i.e the ethnic neo-conservatism is a sort of evil conspiracy?

mario50
07-10-2012, 10:10 PM
I been deploy with my squadron (Antares) several years IN CAMP NAQUORA , SOTHthern lebano ras al naqoura israelian border of israel ROSH ANIKRA

I spent several years in the peace keeping, the middle east question could be soved easily, lebanon is a country that just live sucking money at other countries, flyng on lebanes sky u can see 100s hoiuses with a nice swimming pool some one have the swimming pool heart shape pinky, it means no powerty , if it is powerty because the lebanese governement want to keep peoples in powerty , lebanese cattolic maronite are now gettin over from muslim, europe and usa could stop it smash them easily , get pal;estinian in the right order, remember the muslim understand just the baton, but because petroleum USA and europe preferred to keep it in the same shapoe they are now

JR*
11-19-2012, 05:20 AM
By and large, the Ottoman Empire was pretty tolerant to most minorities within its power - as long as they paid their taxes, (in some cases) contributed military levies when required, and did not challenge the military/foreign policies of the Sublime Porte. In fact, provided that they observed these limitations, Ottoman rule often seems to have been less onerous on non-Turks than it was on the Turks themselves. As regards the comment on "Muslim" massacres in Darfur, elements of the (more or less Muslim) Baggara people of western Sudan have been trying, on and off, to conduct ethnic cleansing against their slightly darker Christian and Animist Bantu neighbours for at least two centuries. What has been happening more recently has more to do with good old-fashioned land warfare than it does with religion. It seems to me that these things are a bit ... complicated ... Best regards, JR.