PDA

View Full Version : Ernst Barkmann



Ivaylo
12-15-2008, 07:23 AM
Today i was reading about the 2 SS division "das reich " and suddenly got on that veteran , maybe not a ace like Michael Vitman but a very nice proffesional anyone know more about him and maybe got some photos ?

flamethrowerguy
12-15-2008, 07:47 AM
SS-Oberscharführer (NCO) ERNST BARKMANN
Born August 25, 1919 in Kisdorf/Holstein, Northern Germany. Barkmann is still alive today aged 89. After the war he changed his name to Ernst Schmuck-Barkmann.
Tank commander (Panther) in 4th Company/SS-Panzer-Regiment 2 "Das Reich".
Knight's Cross on August 27, 1944 for his coup known as "Barkmann's Corner"
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen5.htm
British war captivity until December 18, 1947.

http://www.ritterkreuztraeger-1939-45.de/Waffen-SS/B/Barkmann-Ernst.jpghttp://www.dasreich.ca/Barkmann2.jpg

mkenny
12-15-2008, 11:49 AM
A word of caution here. There is no confirmation that this 'Barkmann's Corner' action stopped, slowed or influenced the US advance in any way. There is no mention of a hold up, a delaying action or confirmation of any Sherman losses in a single AAR, memoir or book of any kind. It seems the advancing US Troops never even noticed it.. The whole of the story rests on the unsubstantiated claims by German soldiers.
Their is a parallel with Wittmann's award for Villers Bocage. Wittmann was credited with the destruction of 20+ British tanks when he could not possibly have even seen, never mind engaged half of them.
Clearly the German method for confirming such awards was prone to exageration..

Ivaylo
12-16-2008, 06:45 AM
Thanks a lot flamethrowerguy for the info :) As for the "no confirmation " well we can't be actually sure about anything i can sit here and make you a report about how i knocked 300 Tigers and you would believe me . Since these times of WW2 are far behind us we have to trust the history and what it says because we weren't there to see what happen . With your logic it may be true that the russians never actually lost 20 milions in the WW2 because simply there wasn't reports and everything was kept secret :)

mkenny
12-16-2008, 08:01 AM
As for the "no confirmation " well we can't be actually sure about anything i can sit here and make you a report about how i knocked 300 Tigers and you would believe me
Which is exactly what happened in the Barkmann example. He said it and it was believed.


Since these times of WW2 are far behind us we have to trust the history and what it says because we weren't there to see what happen

Trust? I recomend another way. If you read about these great delaying actions then, at the very least, check the Allied side of the story.
Is it possible you could give an example where you have bothered to check Allied records for anything?


With your logic it may be true that the russians never actually lost 20 milions in the WW2 because simply there wasn't reports and everything was kept secret

And using your logic Wittmann destroyed 20+ tanks at Villers Bocage because his award citation says he did. The fact that he never even SAW 20 tanks should not be allowed to get in the way of a good story.

There are 3 often repeated stories about German 'aces' in Normandy. Wittmann, Fey and Barkmann.
Wittmann can be shown to be incorrect by a factor of at least x2.
Fey (7/8/44) can be proved to be wrong. There are no 23rd Hussars losses to match his claims.
Barkmann has not the slightest scrap of evidence to confirm any of his claims.

Be very wary of accepting usubstanstiated and unconfirmed reports about multiple kills from ANY source. If there is no evidence then it is simply a claim rather than 'history'.

If anyone has evidence that says otherwise then I would love to hear it.

flamethrowerguy
12-16-2008, 09:08 AM
Especially regarding the "Barkmann's Corner" incident informations are indeed more than dim. Neither Barkmann's divisional history ("Das Reich") nor the standard work about Knight's Cross recipients of the Waffen-SS gives away too much details. IIRC the number was nine knocked-out Shermans and some support vehicles. It's not even mentioned if it was a US, british, canadian or maybe polish unit that was encountered.
However, no german soldier was ever awarded with a high decoration like this just by his own claims and that the allied road of advance through France was not only covered with german debris should be clear as well.
Exagerations about the numbers of enemy forces destroyed were done by both sides, I remember reading about allied fighter bombers knocking-out more german tanks in France in 1944 than actually existed.

Ivaylo
12-16-2008, 10:38 AM
Which is exactly what happened in the Barkmann example. He said it and it was believed.



Trust? I recomend another way. If you read about these great delaying actions then, at the very least, check the Allied side of the story.
Is it possible you could give an example where you have bothered to check Allied records for anything?



And using your logic Wittmann destroyed 20+ tanks at Villers Bocage because his award citation says he did. The fact that he never even SAW 20 tanks should not be allowed to get in the way of a good story.

There are 3 often repeated stories about German 'aces' in Normandy. Wittmann, Fey and Barkmann.
Wittmann can be shown to be incorrect by a factor of at least x2.
Fey (7/8/44) can be proved to be wrong. There are no 23rd Hussars losses to match his claims.
Barkmann has not the slightest scrap of evidence to confirm any of his claims.

Be very wary of accepting usubstanstiated and unconfirmed reports about multiple kills from ANY source. If there is no evidence then it is simply a claim rather than 'history'.

If anyone has evidence that says otherwise then I would love to hear it.

"However, no german soldier was ever awarded with a high decoration like this just by his own claims "
Well mkenny as what i said were you there to see if that is true or not ? Maybe is common word when we speak about history and if we start to use it frequently then why we learn it and why we don't simply throw the books away . One more thing why the Allied troops were so afraid from the Tigers or maybe that's another myth , maybe the shermans were passing by the germans and the last one were greeting them with flowers ? ;)
I prefer not to trust the Allied whole story of the things , remember Katyn massacre ?? Oh yes the germans did it of course because Allies told that :)
So from then on i forgot about listening the USSR -England - USA , because as we say here - the history is written by those who won not by these that had lost :)

mkenny
12-16-2008, 12:17 PM
"However, no german soldier was ever awarded with a high decoration like this just by his own claims "

Then can someone explain to me why the citation for Wittmann's award for 13/6/44 states he knocked out over 20 tanks when it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to have hit more than 11 AT THE MOST?
Who confirmed the 20 tanks?
Why did he get credit for the destruction of tanks he never got within a mile of?
Why is the confirmation procedure for the highest German award so bad?
The Wittmann example is cast iron proof that inflated claims were used in the awards procedure.
Why is Barkmann's citation different?
Can you provide an example of the confirmation procedure used for Barkmann's award?



Well mkenny as what i said were you there to see if that is true or not ?
No I was not. Neither where you. Thus all your argument applies to you as much as it does to me.


. One more thing why the Allied troops were so afraid from the Tigers
Afraid? Are you talking about the Allied troops who completely defeated the 2000+ Panzers in Normandy and sent them fleeing for the safety of Germany?
You could easily trace the route because it was blocked with the equipment and vehicles they threw away in their panic to escape capture.


or maybe that's another myth , maybe the shermans were passing by the germans and the last one were greeting them with flowers ?
The post-war French economy benefited greatly from the free scrap metal left behind by the fleeing Germans.

I prefer not to trust the Allied whole story of the things

And yet you completely accept an unconfirmed report from the German side..........


remember Katyn massacre ?? Oh yes the germans did it of course because because Allies told that

Strange history books you have because I can't find any that say other than the Soviets did it.
By the way do you remember the Lidice massacre?
The Das Reich massacre of a whole village, burning the women and children alive in the church at Oradour?
I only mention massacres because you started the subject-fair game for a reply.

Ivaylo
12-16-2008, 04:53 PM
Well i can say the same for the Allies who did confirm their kills ? You ? I ? Eisenhower ?
As for the Soviets - i can tell you a lot more about them and their lies because my country was 45 years under their regime , and it was the Soviet side that was telling constantly that Nazi Germany killed these polish officers there until Gorbachev and his perestroika revealed the truth .So let's not try to miss that important fact - such side was part of the great Allies .The allies did prefer the "lesser evil " choosing the blood Stalin and his terror regime which latter exploateted us like slave while the Western world was watching .... and watching over again , maybe you need a confirmation for this too ? . Don't get me wrong of course the germans wasn't saints neither expecially some parts of SS killing civilians and spreading terror as well as Hitler .
As for the French if that's what only they got as trophy after the war then ok because the germans were ruling them for 4 years full of ocupation and terror so i don't think some free scrap was very important .

mkenny
12-16-2008, 05:08 PM
[QUOTE=Ivaylo;144493] Well i can say the same for the Allies who did confirm their kills ? You ? I ? Eisenhower ?

Look I warned you that there is not a shred of evidence that Barkmann held up the US advance.
There is no confirmation that he knocked out any tanks/vehicles.
You say that his word is good enough for you.
Perhaps even the knowledge that the Germans knew theses claims were far too high may not give you pause for concern
Maybe you don't even know that they OFFICIALY applied a 50% reduction to all these claims themselves?
Why should I worry if you believe every German claim when they did not even believe their own claims.



As for the Soviets - i can tell you a lot more about them and their lies because my country was 45 years under their regime , and it was the Soviet side that was telling constantly that Nazi Germany killed these polish officers there until Gorbachev and his perestroika revealed the truth .So let's not try to miss that important fact - such side was part of the great Allies .The allies did prefer the "lesser evil " choosing the blood Stalin and his terror regime which latter exploateted us like slave while the Western world was watching .... and watching over again , maybe you need a confirmation for this too ?

Thats what happens when you invade another country and lose the war. Best not invade them again.



Don't get me wrong of course the germans wasn't saints neither expecially some parts of SS killing civilians and spreading terror as well as Hitler
Some parts of the SS? You mean there were good parts of the SS ?


As for the French if that's what only they got as trophy after the war then ok because the germans were ruling them for 4 years full of ocupation and terror so i don't think some free scrap was very important .

Yes but they never became a German Ally of fought (as a nation) for Germany-as some did.

flamethrowerguy
12-16-2008, 05:22 PM
Jeeeez, I just checked the net: this doubting and denying is really a long lasting obsession of yours, maybe a life-task. No wonder you know better than Wilmot, Taylor etc. pp. (and a bunch of german "revisionists" unworthy of mention).

pdf27
12-16-2008, 05:32 PM
So let's not try to miss that important fact - such side was part of the great Allies .The allies did prefer the "lesser evil " choosing the blood Stalin and his terror regime which latter exploateted us like slave while the Western world was watching
The Allies didn't prefer Stalin over Hitler for any moral reason (and while FDR had many communist sympathisers in his government, the British had very few). They preferred him because:
1) Hitler was waging aggressive wars in every direction at once. Stalin was much more choosy about who he attacked.
2) We were already at war with Germany when Hitler invaded Russia. Churchill famously commented that "If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.". This was in response to teasing about his having been on the side of anti-Bolshevik intervention in Russia in 1919-21.

mkenny
12-16-2008, 05:36 PM
Jeeeez, I just checked the net
It is easy to check me out because I use my own name. Others prefer to hide behind an alias


this doubting and denying is really a long lasting obsession of yours,
Then it should be easy for a true expert to give example where I get it wrong. Specificaly then what is it you dispute?




maybe a life-task. No wonder you know better than Wilmot, Taylor etc.

Chester Wilmot? Or do you mean Wilbeck? What specific example do you have in mind where Wilmot/Wilbeck help your cause
Taylor? Do you mean Daniel Taylor? How does Taylor contradict anything I have written here?


and a bunch of german "revisionists" unworthy of mention.

Are you not brave enough to give actual names?

I work better with concrete examples where we can compare sources and facts. Can you please give me something to get my teeth into?

Ivaylo
12-16-2008, 06:35 PM
[QUOTE=Ivaylo;144493]



Look I warned you that there is not a shred of evidence that Barkmann held up the US advance.
There is no confirmation that he knocked out any tanks/vehicles.
You say that his word is good enough for you.
Perhaps even the knowledge that the Germans knew theses claims were far too high may not give you pause for concern
Maybe you don't even know that they OFFICIALY applied a 50% reduction to all these claims themselves?
Why should I worry if you believe every German claim when they did not even believe their own claims.




Thats what happens when you invade another country and lose the war. Best not invade them again.



Some parts of the SS? You mean there were good parts of the SS ?



Yes but they never became a German Ally of fought (as a nation) for Germany-as some did.

We don't talk about Barkmann let's say he never knocked them big deal if he did or not , i ask you what about the allies ? Who will confirm their kills ? And i wait the same evidence that you want from me .Second Bulgaria NEVER did invade USSR with even single soldier during the war ( check your books and over the internet ) it was only formal ally of Germany BECAUSE otherwise the Germany was waiting on the Danube river with some serious army and as well the Jugoslavia was kicked hard as well . UK didn't had any desire to defend us of course cause since Bulgaria as country is on the map they hate us and we never ever was in their sphere of interest .Only Russia offered some " brother " help but that meant that we will follow the Litva -Estonia-Latvia way . But that not all when the germans were in retreat the new goverment here went to get bulgaria out as ally of Germany , and the soviets realizing that just "liberated " us like they did with Ukraine and many other countries meaning they were INVADING a country that was neutral by that time , but the Allies got a blank eye on that of course for which i thank them a lot. And one more thing spare me the Allied side of things , i read them so many times in my life that i know them as i know my name .

flamethrowerguy
12-16-2008, 06:40 PM
Others prefer to hide behind an alias

That’s up to anybody but what different does it make?


Specificaly then what is it you dispute?

Like I said before…the general challenge of events even confirmed/published by professional historians. Furthermore the discreditation of WW2 vets (specifically german respectively all-sinister Waffen-SS members).


Chester Wilmot?

Chester Wilmot, mentioning the Villers-Bocage occurences in The Struggle For Europe


Do you mean Daniel Taylor?

Eric Taylor, regarding the Cologne tank-battle.


Are you not brave enough to give actual names?

This has nothing to do with bravery, neither has permanent impeaching the credibility of veterans while being located on an office chair.


I work better with concrete examples where we can compare sources and facts. Can you please give me something to get my teeth into?

No problem, however it won’t help much since my sources were solely published in german language I’m afraid:
- Die Ritterkreuzträger der Waffen-SS (Ernst-Günther Krätschmer)
- Division „Das Reich“ (Otto Weidinger)
- Die Leibstandarte (Rudolf Lehmann)
- Panzer vor (Karl Almann)
- Tiger der Division „Das Reich“ (Wolfgang Schneider)
…and in the matter of Wittmann, check out „Steel Inferno“ by Michael Reynolds as well!

mkenny
12-16-2008, 06:46 PM
We don't talk about Barkmann let's say he never knocked them big deal if he did or not

I gave you some advice. It seemed to me you fully believed that he held up the US advance. I simply cautioned you that there is no US report that mentions being held up. Maybe he did hit a tank or two.Possibly he destroyed a few trucks. Hold up an entire advancing Army? No!


i ask you what about the allies ? Who will confirm their kills ? And i wait the same evidence that you want from me

If you give me an example where an Allied tanker claimed he held up an advance all by himself then you might have reason to complain. These 'single tanks holding up entire Divisions/wiping out 50 tanks' seem to be a German speciality.

mkenny
12-16-2008, 07:04 PM
That’s up to anybody but what different does it make?

You see my name and you know who you are talking too. I stand behind everything I post and thus can not resort to a change of name if I mess up.




Chester Wilmot, mentioning the Villers-Bocage occurences in The Struggle For Europe

Put it up. What SPECIFIC example do you say contradicts any earlier posts?
Wilmot's work is a general history book and very dated Research has moved on considerably since his day and in no respects can he lay claim to any expertise on Villers Bocage.


Eric Taylor, regarding the Cologne tank-battle.

Be specific. I have not claimed anything other than a suggestion that the US crew were running away is flatly contradicted by one of the photographers who was there on the day. Again I ask you to give the specific example.


This has nothing to do with bravery, neither has permanent impeaching the credibility of veterans while being located on an office chair.
So in your eyes every veteran claim must be taken at face value and they never got anything wrong?
Perhaps then you could answer me a qustion I have asked twice so far. If the German kill confirmation system was so foolproff why was Wittmann credited with at least twice as many tanks as he could have possibly have engaged?
Please explain it to me.




No problem, however it won’t help much since my sources were solely published in german language I’m afraid:
- Die Ritterkreuzträger der Waffen-SS (Ernst-Günther Krätschmer)
- Division „Das Reich“ (Otto Weidinger)
- Die Leibstandarte (Rudolf Lehmann)
- Panzer vor (Karl Almann)
- Tiger der Division „Das Reich“ (Wolfgang Schneider)
…and in the matter of Wittmann, check out „Steel Inferno“ by Michael Reynolds as well!
Weidinger and Lehmann are both available in English. Schneider I have had personal contact with in the past and I have all his books. Having read Reynolds I can only ask you what exactly does he say that contradicts anything I have said? If you mean he repeats Barkmann's claim them I would suggest that doing so by quoting Barkmann himself in no way adds anything to Barkmann's credibility. We are still stuck with a single unconfirmed source.
I see nothing on Wittmann that you could possibly use to refute anything I wrote.

Ivaylo
12-16-2008, 07:05 PM
[QUOTE=Ivaylo;144511]

I gave you some advice. It seemed to me you fully believed that he held up the US advance. I simply cautioned you that there is no US report that mentions being held up. Maybe he did hit a tank or two.Possibly he destroyed a few trucks. Hold up an entire advancing Army? No!



If you give me an example where an Allied tanker claimed he held up an advance all by himself then you might have reason to complain. These 'single tanks holding up entire Divisions/wiping out 50 tanks' seem to be a German speciality.

Haha don't forget the Russian ally ;) they also have such speciality as 1 sniper killed 400 germans ( well it's not tanker but it's the same ) I guess too that there is not a german report for every Allied action too ;)

mkenny
12-16-2008, 07:09 PM
Haha don't forget the Russian ally ;) they also have such speciality as 1 sniper killed 400 germans ( well it's not tanker but it's the same )

What has that got to do with anything? Have you an argument other than ' everyone else overclaimed so it is ok if the German do it'

Ivaylo
12-16-2008, 07:13 PM
yes it has to do with the word lie , so don't claim again that the allies got everything in report and it's all true , even Jesus Christ came down and saw it and it's even on the bible , because they lied too as hell .

mkenny
12-16-2008, 07:54 PM
yes it has to do with the word lie ,
As I never used the word lie I fail to see where you are going here.
I specificaly use the word OVERCLAIM. This means that claims were made that exceded reality. There are many reasons for overclaiming and 99% of them have nothing to do with lying.


so don't claim again that the allies got everything in report and it's all true ,

Just show me where I said that...................

It always amazes me how nasty it gets when anyone dares to claim a German source is anything other than 100% correct in every respect!!!

flamethrowerguy
12-17-2008, 09:17 AM
The Das Reich massacre of a whole village, burning the women and children alive in the church at Oradour?

Of course you'd blame the entire 23rd US Infantry Division for My Lai as well!



It always amazes me how nasty it gets when anyone dares to claim a German source is anything other than 100% correct in every respect!!!

This is becoming ridiculous and even more worrying...

Ivaylo
12-17-2008, 10:09 AM
As I never used the word lie I fail to see where you are going here.
I specificaly use the word OVERCLAIM. This means that claims were made that exceded reality. There are many reasons for overclaiming and 99% of them have nothing to do with lying.



Just show me where I said that...................

It always amazes me how nasty it gets when anyone dares to claim a German source is anything other than 100% correct in every respect!!!

I start to get bored from your replies being stubborn saying one thing again and again 1000 times . I see that you see the things only in Allies way , refusing to admit ANY claims from the Germans simply because there weren't allied reports for that and so on , but many historians said that is true and i believe them cause otherwise they won't make films for Wittman , Barkman and others , as for you even if Jesus Christ get down and say you that was true you will say Jesus there wasn't any reports . So i am tired to reply you and from other hand i don't see why you write here as the theme is for Ernst Barkmann not for allied reports of german actions . So far you didn't answer me who the hell reported the allied actions , and who proved that they were right . Because i don't think in a such big war you can make reports of EVERY action you take and the other side make , for example of Stalingrad or Bastogne i don't think any commander was sitting and watching and making a reports , they just reported all they remember after the battles were over to their superiors . And please don't say what i dare to "claim " simply because it in every history books in the school as well as many historians and Tv's made a series for Wittman for example so i don't they were fools to make such thing and to say these things .

mkenny
12-17-2008, 12:49 PM
Of course you'd blame the entire 23rd US Infantry Division for My Lai as well

I blame anyone who was involved in herding women and children into a church and burning them to death. I blame the brave SS men who shot those who managed to escape.

flamethrowerguy
12-17-2008, 01:01 PM
I blame anyone who was involved in herding women and children into a church and burning them to death. I blame the brave SS men who shot those who managed to escape.

See, this sounds immediately different. You just decreased the number of potential criminally insane by a couple of thousands.

mkenny
12-17-2008, 01:09 PM
I start to get bored from your replies being stubborn saying one thing again and again 1000 times

I will say it again in case you missed the point (which obviously you did)

If Barkmann is claimed to have held up the entire US advance then you would think it would be mentioned in a report somewhere. Holding up several Armored and Infantry divisions, being attacked by aircraft and generaly destroying a mound of US Equipment would surely rate some comment somewhere. However there is not the slightest indication any of the US Units noticed this 'brave stand'. It was so insignificant and unimportant that no one noticed it! In an ordinary person this would sound alarm bells. You would think that in all the years this story has been doing the rounds someone (even a fan-boy) would have been able to find some confirmation. Even worse all the books that repeat the story do no more than retell the story without any supporting independent evidence. Clearly you are of the opinion that if a German said it then it must be true.




refusing to admit ANY claims from the Germans simply because there weren't allied reports for that and so on

No I simply said beware of believing the Barkmann claim because it is unconfirmed.


but many historians said that is true and i believe them
Bakmann makes the claim.
100 Panzer fan-boy books repeat the claim citing Barkmann as their source.
How many sources are there?
Some would say 100.
In fact their is one source.
If you can name me one 'historian' who gives any data on the US Units involved then you might have a case.

Ivaylo
12-17-2008, 03:45 PM
And you are on the opinion that if the Allies told it , it must be true ... i see you act like the american courts in 1933 during the mafia period - case closed lack of evidence . Clearly you don't see my point and it is - the allies of course won't make a public report of that , no one would mention it ,for example the vetarans of 101st from Bastogne said that hey never actually needed Patton and his army and that actually they were able to hold the city even to 2060 as i heard from their words .