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Nickdfresh
11-27-2008, 11:22 AM
India sees external link to attacks
Commandos storm Mumbai hotels to save hostages; more than 100 killed
msnbc.com news services (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27940231/)
updated 10:19 a.m. ET, Thurs., Nov. 27, 2008

MUMBAI, India - Elite Indian commandos fought room-to-room battles with Islamist militants inside two luxury hotels to save scores of people trapped or taken hostage, as the country's prime minister blamed neighboring countries for the attacks that have killed more than 100 people.

Manmohan Singh blamed militant groups based in India's neighbors -- usually meaning Pakistan -- raising fears of renewed tension between the nuclear-armed rivals.

Helicopters buzzed overhead and crowds cheered as the commandos, their faces blackened, moved into the Trident-Oberoi, where 20 to 30 people are thought to have been taken hostage and more than 100 others were trapped in their rooms.

Explosions rattled the nearby Taj Hotel, a 105-year-old city landmark on the waterfront, as the troops tried to flush out the militants there. Fire and smoke plumed from an open window.

At least six foreigners, including one Australian, an Italian and a Japanese national were killed, and police said another 287 people were wounded.

The White House said President Bush expressed his condolences to the prime minister during a telephone call with the Indian leader.

Bush had offered Singh "support and assistance" as he worked to restore order, according to White House press secretary Dana Perino. The president also wished Singh success as Indian officials investigated "these despicable acts" in Mumbai.

Harrowing stories
Those who survived told harrowing stories of close encounters. Australian actress Brooke Satchwell, who starred in the "Neighbors" television soap opera, said she narrowly escaped the gunmen by hiding in a hotel bathroom cupboard.

"There were people getting shot in the corridor. There was someone dead outside the bathroom," the shaken actress told Australian television. "The next thing I knew I was running down the stairs and there were a couple of dead bodies across the stairs. It was chaos."

Commandos had also gathered outside a Jewish center where a rabbi is thought to have been taken hostage, but later apparently decided to hold off from an assault.

A militant holed up at the center phoned an Indian television channel to offer talks with the government for the release of hostages, but also to complain about abuses in Kashmir, over which India and Pakistan have fought two of their three wars.

"Ask the government to talk to us and we will release the hostages," the man, identified by the India TV channel as Imran, said, speaking in Urdu in what sounded like a Kashmiri accent.

"Are you aware how many people have been killed in Kashmir? Are you aware how your army has killed Muslims?"

Walking through blood
Around two dozen militants in their early 20s, armed with automatic rifles and grenades and carrying backpacks full of ammunition, came ashore in a rubber dinghy on Wednesday and fanned out across Mumbai's financial and tourist heart.

They commandeered a vehicle and sprayed passersby with bullets, fired indiscriminately in a train station, hospitals and a popular tourist cafe. They also attacked two of the city's most luxurious hotels packed with tourists and business executives.

"We threw ourselves down under the reception counter," Esperanza Aguirre, head of Madrid's regional government, said.

"I took off my shoes and we left being pushed along by the hotel staff," she said. "I didn't see any terrorists or injured people. I just saw the blood I had to walk through barefoot."

Some 22 hours after the late-evening assault, soldiers and militants were still exchanging intermittent fire and scores of people were trapped inside rooms of the Taj Mahal hotel, a 105-year-old city landmark.

"People who were held up there, they have all been rescued," Maharashtra state police chief A.N. Roy told NDTV news. "But there are guests in the rooms, we don't know how many."

A senior India home ministry official said 20-30 people could still be held hostage in the Trident/Oberoi hotel.

'External linkages'
Singh said New Delhi would "take up strongly" the use of neighbors' territory to launch attacks on India.

"The well-planned and well-orchestrated attacks, probably with external linkages, were intended to create a sense of terror by choosing high-profile targets," Singh said in an address to the nation.

The use of heavily armed "fedayeen", or suicide attackers, bears the hallmarks of Pakistan-based militant groups like Lashkar-e-Taiba or Jaish-e-Mohammed, blamed for a 2001 attack on India's parliament.

Both groups made their name fighting Indian rule in disputed Kashmir, and were closely linked in the past to the Pakistani military's Inter Services Intelligence agency, the ISI.

It is hard to imagine Pakistan's government supporting such an attack, but militants, possibly backed by rogue elements in the ISI, might want to undermine the India-Pakistan peace process and Pakistan's civilian government of President Asif Ali Zardari.

'Release all the mujahideens'
Lashkar-e-Taiba denied any role in the attacks, and said it had no links with any Indian group. Instead, the little-known Deccan Mujahideen claimed responsibility.

"Release all the mujahideens, and Muslims living in India should not be troubled," said a militant inside the Oberoi, speaking to Indian television by telephone.

The attacks were bound to spook investors in one of Asia's largest and fastest-growing economies.

Authorities closed stock, bond and foreign exchange markets, and the central bank said it would continue auctions to keep cash flowing through interbank lending markets, which seized up after the global financial crisis.

One of the first targets was the Cafe Leopold, a famous hangout popular with foreign tourists.

The attackers then appeared to target British, Americans and Israelis as they sought hostages in the hotels and elsewhere.

Mumbai has seen several major bomb attacks in the past, but never anything so obviously targeted at foreigners.

England and India cricket boards cancelled their last two games in a seven-match series following the attacks.

The attacks were another blow for the Congress party-led government ahead of a general election due by early 2009, with the party already under fire for failing to prevent a string of bomb attacks on Indian cities.

Strategic expert Uday Bhaskar said the attacks could inflame tensions between Hindus and Muslims. "The fact that they were trying to segregate British and American passport holders definitely suggests Islamist fervor," he said.

Police said they had shot dead seven gunmen and arrested nine suspects. They said 12 policemen were killed the chief of the police anti-terrorist squad in Mumbai.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

32Bravo
11-28-2008, 02:50 PM
I wonder how many of the casualties, if any, were as a result of the indiscriminate fire of the commandos?

Panzerknacker
11-28-2008, 03:12 PM
Yet another massacre by the islamist.

Nickdfresh
11-28-2008, 06:45 PM
I wonder how many of the casualties, if any, were as a result of the indiscriminate fire of the commandos?

Yeah. they were lobbing grenades from 40mm launchers and snipers were indiscriminately firing at the Bombay Jewish Center, then went in "Apocalypse Now" style rappelling from choppers. I guess there's footage, but maybe they figured that hostages were going to die no matter what they did?

In any case, I've read the Indian counter-terrorist force, "The National Security Guards," are supposed to be quite good. But they weren't using a counter-terror "scalpel" today, they just forgoed it for a chainsaw...

TheBeam
11-29-2008, 12:50 AM
I was talking with a former Indian SF guy (rank didn't come up) and I was stunned to learn that during his SF qualification, 4 out of 18 died. That's 22%.

When I commented that a rate like that would be completely unacceptable here, he said, "Yeah, but we've got too many people in India."

The chainsaw may not take that much to come out...but killing 100 civillians and wounding 300 more will definitely do it.

A few hours old...3 days after this all started:

MUMBAI: Even as the special forces and the police succeeded in freeing 200 people who were holed up inside the Oberoi and Trident Hotels for the third day, four Israeli and United States nationals held hostage in a south Mumbai Jewish religious centre were found dead when commandos stormed the building late on Friday evening.

Oh, and all the hostages in the Jewish Centre (mentioned in above posts as receiving heavy, indescriminate fire) are dead too.

TheBeam
11-29-2008, 12:52 AM
Whoops, the whole quote didn't work:

An NSG officer gave his life in the fighting. There was no official word, though, on fatalities inside the Taj. NSG Director-General J.K. Dutt said the “stage had been set for the final phase of the operation.”

Nine terrorists have so far been killed in fighting, while one — Pakistani national Ajmal Amir Kamal — has been arrested.

Maharashtra Director-General of Police A.N. Roy said 155 civilians have so far died in the terror attacks which began on Friday. Another 318 people have been injured. However, speaking to journalists in the evening, Union Minister of State for Home Sriprakash Jaiswal said the final death toll could go up to 200.

TheBeam
11-29-2008, 12:53 AM
Hey! I just got promoted!!!

Chevan
11-30-2008, 10:33 AM
Yeah. they were lobbing grenades from 40mm launchers and snipers were indiscriminately firing at the Bombay Jewish Center, then went in "Apocalypse Now" style rappelling from choppers. I guess there's footage, but maybe they figured that hostages were going to die no matter what they did?

In any case, I've read the Indian counter-terrorist force, "The National Security Guards," are supposed to be quite good. But they weren't using a counter-terror "scalpel" today, they just forgoed it for a chainsaw...
I heard any country that survive the constant terroristic threat do have the strong anti-terrisistc forces.
India is one among them.I don't think that the indian NS guard was guilt in so big figure of victims.
The Islamic terrorist are the real beasts- when they have started to kill the osetian children in Beslan's school in 2004 the Counter-terrorist group Alfa has been forced to start the assault immediatelly.
But this case in India is realy special - looks like the real Terrorist war with hundreds of died.

BriteLite
11-30-2008, 11:44 AM
I am saddened hostages and innocents have died. I do support the operation by the government of India. For me, when an individual attacks wantonly with the goal of killing as many targets as possible a line has been crossed. The current brand of Islamic terrorist hides behind the Koran even though true followers condemn such acts. These 'warriors" are prepared to die. Diplomacy or neutrality are not solutions for dealing with these devils. Military action as India chose is the best counter. It is unfortunate innocent people must die but that is the price to be paid.

Does another solution exist? I have considered other options and am open to ideas?

pdf27
11-30-2008, 12:03 PM
So far as I can tell, the problem is that the local police were too poorly armed to deal with the initial attack (No.1 MkIII* Lee-Enfields, revolvers and bamboo sticks) and by the time centralised anti-terrorist forces were flown in it was too late and the overwhelming majority of those killed were already dead.

Adrian Wainer
11-30-2008, 04:59 PM
I wonder how many of the casualties, if any, were as a result of the indiscriminate fire of the commandos?

Well then no need to bring the religion of peace in to the equation then?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer
11-30-2008, 05:02 PM
Yet another massacre by the islamist.

Along with al-Andalus i.e. Spain, India is another territory which at one time was ruled by Muslims and they want it back.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer
11-30-2008, 05:10 PM
I am saddened hostages and innocents have died. I do support the operation by the government of India. For me, when an individual attacks wantonly with the goal of killing as many targets as possible a line has been crossed. The current brand of Islamic terrorist hides behind the Koran even though true followers condemn such acts. These 'warriors" are prepared to die. Diplomacy or neutrality are not solutions for dealing with these devils. Military action as India chose is the best counter. It is unfortunate innocent people must die but that is the price to be paid.

Does another solution exist? I have considered other options and am open to ideas?

There can be no compromise with these people, they want to take over the planet and are prepared to exterminate anybody who would stand in their way. The fact is that India merely stands somewhat higher on their to do list than say Holland or Germany for the reason it was a territory at one time ruled by Muslims and Hindus are seen as idol worshipers and thus are regarded as particularly vile and offensive filth.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

pdf27
11-30-2008, 06:04 PM
Well then no need to bring the religion of peace in to the equation then?
Comment about Islamist terrorism is acceptable. Racist trolling and attempting to infer that every Muslim is an undercover terrorist is not. Watch your step.

Adrian Wainer
12-01-2008, 05:36 PM
Comment about Islamist terrorism is acceptable. Racist trolling and attempting to infer that every Muslim is an undercover terrorist is not. Watch your step.

If you want to boot me off the forum and you have the power to do so go ahead and do it, on the other hand please do not proceed to libel me by misrepresenting my position on Islam and implying I was acting in a racist manner when I was not. Either you should directly accuse me of engaging in racist trolling and attempting to infer that every Muslim is an undercover terrorist and have the evidence to support such accusations or I respectfully suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EQLdIuI3h0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVmznEjxVnI

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Rising Sun*
12-03-2008, 07:15 AM
While there may well be links between the likes of al Qaeda, Laskar e Toiba and others with what happened in Mumbai, at worst it reflects local interests harnessing the skills of those organisations to pursue local objectives rather than those organisations independently extending whatever global reach they have. No doubt such links are a two way street where each organisation gets something it wants, such as the attacks on Jews and Westerners in Mumbai which probably reflect al Qaeda type objectives rather than traditional Muslim ones in the Indian conflict, but it's a mistake to seize upon the latest Mumbai attacks as evidence of the potency of an international Islamist assault on the West or anywhere else in the same way that 9/11 was.

India has been a hotbed of Muslim v Hindu v Sikh v Christian v Sundry Others violence for a long time, and particularly since Partition http://www.massviolence.org/+-India-+?id_rubrique=6&artpage=3 and even more since Partition left the Kashmir (Hindu rule over Muslim majority) issue unresolved.

Much as Adrian Wainer and others might like to view the most recent Mumbai attack as part of the campaign by bin Laden et al to restore or even expand the Caliphate, a more dispassionate assessment shows that the Mumbai attacks are not part of that process or even an Indian version of 9/11, despite some of the Western press choosing to sensationalise it under that heading. This is confirmed by the history of similarly violent attacks in Mumbai http://publicculture.org/articles/volume_19_number_3/how_read_bomb_scenes_bombay_s_bl and other events in politico-sectarian violence in India, such as

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/holy-war-strikes-india-955502.html

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24149748-25837,00.html

Adrian Wainer
12-04-2008, 12:40 PM
While there may well be links between the likes of al Qaeda, Laskar e Toiba and others with what happened in Mumbai, at worst it reflects local interests harnessing the skills of those organisations to pursue local objectives rather than those organisations independently extending whatever global reach they have. No doubt such links are a two way street where each organisation gets something it wants, such as the attacks on Jews and Westerners in Mumbai which probably reflect al Qaeda type objectives rather than traditional Muslim ones in the Indian conflict, but it's a mistake to seize upon the latest Mumbai attacks as evidence of the potency of an international Islamist assault on the West or anywhere else in the same way that 9/11 was.

India has been a hotbed of Muslim v Hindu v Sikh v Christian v Sundry Others violence for a long time, and particularly since Partition http://www.massviolence.org/+-India-+?id_rubrique=6&artpage=3 and even more since Partition left the Kashmir (Hindu rule over Muslim majority) issue unresolved.

Much as Adrian Wainer and others might like to view the most recent Mumbai attack as part of the campaign by bin Laden et al to restore or even expand the Caliphate, a more dispassionate assessment shows that the Mumbai attacks are not part of that process or even an Indian version of 9/11, despite some of the Western press choosing to sensationalise it under that heading. This is confirmed by the history of similarly violent attacks in Mumbai http://publicculture.org/articles/volume_19_number_3/how_read_bomb_scenes_bombay_s_bl and other events in politico-sectarian violence in India, such as

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/holy-war-strikes-india-955502.html

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24149748-25837,00.html

I can't really see the likes of Osama bin Laden would be up for restoring the Caliphate. The Caliphate is a Sunni Muslim concept. bin Laden is a Wahhabi waging a global Jihad, a global Jihad yes restoring the Caliphate no. What is the relevance of Hindu attacks on Christians, are you arguing that Muslims gunned down people in Bombay Hotels because they are angry about Hindus persecuting Christians? As for the public culture article, it is only an extract from a payware publication, and as I don't have the full article I can't make a comment on it. As for Kashmir for sure there is terrorist type attacks in India generated out of the Kashmir issue but the complex nature of the recent Bombay attack, would suggest something more than mere local issues such as Kashmir being the motivation behind the attack. As for atrocities that happened during the partition of India, that was then and this is now. As for the matter of al-Qaeda subcontracting or franchising activities out to local organizations, I can not see that people would be any less or more dead when they are on the receiving end of an Ak-47 round, if the operation is directly carried out by al-Qaeda or subcontracted/franchised out to a locally based organization.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Rising Sun*
12-04-2008, 04:18 PM
I can't really see the likes of Osama bin Laden would be up for restoring the Caliphate.

Maybe you can't, but he can. See, for example, bin Laden's own words on restoring the Caliphate at pp. 140 and 242 . http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/ubl-fbis.pdf


The Caliphate is a Sunni Muslim concept. bin Laden is a Wahhabi ...

Wahhabism is a Sunni branch of Islam.


waging a global Jihad, a global Jihad yes restoring the Caliphate no.

See my first comment.


What is the relevance of Hindu attacks on Christians, are you arguing that Muslims gunned down people in Bombay Hotels because they are angry about Hindus persecuting Christians?

No, if you read my previous post the thrust of what I said was that India has been a hotbed of sectarian violence and that the most recent Mumbai attacks should be viewed, in part, in that context rather than as part of some Islamist assault on the rest of the world.


As for atrocities that happened during the partition of India, that was then and this is now.

I don't see how one can isolate current events and attitudes in India on one hand and Pakistan and other Muslim communities on the other from the historical chain of events which gave rise to the existence of both countries in their current form, particularly as the bitterness generated during Partition still lives on in many people on both sides of the issue.

gumalangi
12-10-2008, 05:25 AM
it is understood for non-muslim hates further islam after this event, even for myself a muslim by birth and nature, i despise this type of action, I also against those people. and calling me a potential terorrist, is rather out of proportion.

Do you know those muslims terorrist also kills muslims too? They(terorrist) kill their own brother in faith if they against them.

RS. nice ribbons there brother,.;)

Rising Sun*
12-10-2008, 05:36 AM
RS. nice ribbons there brother,.;)

Good to see you around, mate.

I was afraid you'd left us.

pdf27
12-10-2008, 08:14 AM
Do you know those muslims terorrist also kills muslims too? They(terorrist) kill their own brother in faith if they against them.
Indeed, the overwhelming majority of the victims of Islamist violence (i.e. >95%) are people who would consider themselves to be Muslims themselves. The various Jihadi nutcases get around this in two ways:
1) Pretending it didn't happen, in the hope that the world's press will blame the West for it. If they get called out on it, the response is frequently along the lines of "look what you made us do".
2) Redefining their victims as apostates on the grounds that they don't believe exactly the same as the Jihadis (or they would have joined them) and therefore aren't true muslims and hence should be killed for abandoning their faith.

Of course, this doesn't always work - and when it fails the various Jihadis may come to a rather sticky end. See the Awakening movement in Anbar and surrounding areas for details...

Nickdfresh
12-26-2008, 07:30 AM
Pakistan moves troops toward Indian border
Tension grows between nuclear-armed neighbors following Mumbai attacks
The Associated Press
updated 7:43 a.m. ET, Fri., Dec. 26, 2008

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Pakistan began moving thousands of troops away from the Afghan border toward India on Friday amid tensions following the Mumbai attacks, intelligence officials said.

The move represents a sharp escalation in the stand off between the nuclear-armed neighbors and stands to weaken Pakistan's U.S.-backed campaign against al-Qaida and Taliban close to Afghanistan.

Two intelligence officials said the army's 14th Division was being redeployed to Kasur and Sialkot, close to the Indian border. They said some 20,000 troops were on the move. Earlier Friday, a security official said that all troop leave had been canceled.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation.

Indian officials could not be immediately reached for comment.

An Associated Press reporter in Dera Ismail Khan, a district that borders the Afghan-frontier province of South Waziristan, said he saw around 40 trucks loaded with soldiers heading away from the Afghan border.

India is blaming Pakistan-based militants for last month's attacks on Mumbai. Islamabad has said it will cooperate in any probe, but says it has seen no evidence backing up India's claims.

Both countries have said they hope to avoid military conflict. But Pakistan has promised to respond aggressively if India uses force, an option the Indian government has not ruled out as it presses its neighbor to crack down on the Pakistan-based terrorist group it blames for the attacks.

"We need a de-escalation in tension through negotiations," Babar Awan, Pakistan's minister for parliamentary affairs, told reporters Friday. "We will continue our efforts at an international level and also at a regional level, but let me make it very clear that we will not surrender an inch. We will fight any adventure, any aggression."

Hard-liners have sought to raise tensions between the two countries after the Mumbai assaults, but senior Indian and Pakistani officials have tried to navigate a careful path, defending their country's honor without triggering military conflict.

Airspace violation?
Pakistan accused Indian fighter jets of violating its airspace on two separate occasions more than a week ago, raising the possibility of conflict. But Pakistani officials subsequently played down the incidents, saying the violations, which India denied altogether, were likely accidental.

Pakistani fighter jets have flown over several of the country's major cities in recent days after the alleged airspace violations.

Pakistan has deployed more than 100,000 soldiers in Waziristan and other northwestern regions to fight Islamic militants blamed for surging violence against Western troops in Afghanistan.

A senior security official refused to comment directly on Friday's troop movements, but said, "Necessary defensive measures have been taken, they are in place and Pakistan's armed forces are prepared to tackle any eventuality."

He asked his name not be used, citing the sensitivity of the situation.

Pakistan and India have fought three wars since their independence from Britain in 1947.

India has said the gunmen who carried out the Mumbai attacks were Pakistani and had connections to the terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba.

Pakistan has arrested several senior members of the banned group and moved against a charity that India and the U.N. say is a front for Lashkar. But the country has also demanded India share evidence of its allegations before prosecuting anyone for the attacks in Pakistani courts.

Many in India are skeptical Pakistan will follow through on its crackdown against Lashkar because it was created in the 1980s with the help of Pakistan's intelligence service and has been used to pressure India over the disputed region of Kashmir.


Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

AP Google (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkiMxbHNH0BqgpWA2ZG6VD6wVTmAD95AD7F02)

gumalangi
12-27-2008, 08:50 AM
i saw one movie by angelina jolie,. About a journalist kidnapped and killed in pakistan,. Good movie to reffer to,. On how difficult pakistani government handling terrorism,. And yet shown determination on it.

But i like the end quote by the angelina jolie there,.. When asked whether or not she hates pakistanis after got her husband killed in the country
"terrorism is not about pakistanis nor muslim,. Its everywhere,. they too facing the same threat"