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Chevan
11-18-2008, 01:28 AM
I found that link in Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall_(film)
The film about last days of Hitler's surround in Bunker.
I didn't watch this film yet.
Is it worthwhile to watch?Has somebody seen?

kamehouse
11-18-2008, 04:43 AM
First I was thinking you were joking but then I realised you are living in Russia which would explain why you haven't heard of this fantastic movie.It's German and its original title is Der Untergang.It's the story of one of Hitler's secretary Traudl Junge and the last days of the Reich/Berlin.
Highly recommended by moi.Very much at my top war movies list with "Zvezda"(Звезда) and "Idi i smotri"(Иди и смотри)

Schuultz
01-13-2009, 06:47 PM
I found that link in Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall_(film)
The film about last days of Hitler's surround in Bunker.
I didn't watch this film yet.
Is it worthwhile to watch?Has somebody seen?

You'd probably also like the fact that the Russian soldiers are shown as quite respectful and civilized, and not as a plundering and raping mob.

Moreheaddriller
01-13-2009, 07:02 PM
I feel in love with it last summer it has its sad parts in it but its a great film none the less

Terry_214
01-18-2009, 06:05 AM
Top Film.

It pulls no punches, but is more drama than historically correct.

Worth a watch.

Nickdfresh
01-18-2009, 08:00 AM
You'd probably also like the fact that the Russian soldiers are shown as quite respectful and civilized, and not as a plundering and raping mob.

Excellent film. The Russian soldiers aren't really in there very long and seemed to be in a state of momentary awe...

I was also curious as almost all German small arms are shown, but it seems that every other soldier is carrying the MP-44 Sturmgewehr and rifle might be a bit overrepresented?

kamehouse
01-18-2009, 09:38 AM
Excellent film. The Russian soldiers aren't really in there very long and seemed to be in a state of momentary awe...

I was also curious as almost all German small arms are shown, but it seems that every other soldier is carrying the MP-44 Sturmgewehr and rifle might be a bit overrepresented?
Not sure ,in Mabire's "mourir a Berlin" and Trigg's "Hitler's gauls" it says that all soldiers (except Rostaing's 3rd Kompanie who had 3 Stg44 for 10 men) from the "Charlemagne "division were equipped with Stg 44 and Panzerfausts as well as an abundance of MG42's(no less than two per section).

eolithic
01-18-2009, 09:54 AM
absolutely !! a very good film !!
u gotta watch it dude !

Schuultz
01-18-2009, 09:58 AM
I wouldn't be too quick to judge the movie on that.
I'd assume that the units defending Berlin would be high priority enough to be fully equipped with StG44s... But I also saw quite a couple of MP40s, especially when the SS soldier executes the "Deserters".
The 98k's are only used by the Volkssturm guys, and they got massacred, which caused the commander who witnessed it to complain to Goebbels that if he had to force old men to fight, he should at least give them weaponry that works for Urban combat.

flamethrowerguy
01-18-2009, 10:17 AM
Generally I'd say they did a very good job on the authenticity of weaponry, uniforms and equipment.
3130
3131

kamehouse
01-18-2009, 10:24 AM
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee44/kamehouse-uk/charlemagne1945fk8.jpgPicture from the SS-Nordland taken in Berlin.
Some attributes it to the Charlemagne but it's a mistake.Anyway as all can see,equipment wasn't an issue before the battle of Berlin.

Cojimar 1945
01-18-2009, 01:07 PM
I thought the guy that played Hitler did a good job. One thing I would have liked is if more had been shown of the Soviets. It seemed like the movie only looked at the German perspective and it would have been interesting to see more of what the Soviet soldiers were doing.

flamethrowerguy
01-18-2009, 01:43 PM
It seemed like the movie only looked at the German perspective and it would have been interesting to see more of what the Soviet soldiers were doing.

After all this is what the movie's all about: the incidents inside of the "Führerbunker" and Hitler's closer peripherals in general.

kamehouse
01-18-2009, 02:47 PM
After all this is what the movie's all about: the incidents inside of the "Führerbunker" and Hitler's closer peripherals in general.
It is based from the book of Hitler's secretary isn'it?

flamethrowerguy
01-18-2009, 04:27 PM
It is based from the book of Hitler's secretary isn'it?

Partially (Until the Final Hour: Hitler's Last Secretary). Mainly it's based on Joachim Fest's book "Der Untergang" (english version "Inside Hitler's Bunker. The Last Days of the Third Reich").
Parts of an interview with the secretary in question ,Gertraud „Traudl“ Junge (1920-2002), was shown at the beginning and end of the movie.
However it should be mentioned that Rochus Misch (Hitler's bodyguard, courier and phone operator) states in his book (Der letzte Zeuge: Ich war Hitlers Telefonist, Kurier und Leibwächter) that Mrs. Junge kind of "bloated" her own part in the whole story. The movie (and maybe her book as well, haven't read it yet) shows her as Hitler's favourite secretary. However Misch writes that she was actually more of a substitute for the case that one of the regular secretaries (Gerda Christian, Christa Schroeder and Johanna Wolf) was not available.

Schuultz
01-18-2009, 06:36 PM
Well, the part where...

[SPOILER]


...She walked through the Russian lines and nobody did anything to her is wrong, too. In reality she was raped multiple times, IIRC...


[SPOILER END]

NotaBolshevik
01-20-2009, 01:31 AM
Well, the part where...

[SPOILER]


...She walked through the Russian lines and nobody did anything to her is wrong, too. In reality she was raped multiple times, IIRC...


[SPOILER END]

Well they said something about not looking in there eyes but I bet she would have been raped in all reality

Moreheaddriller
01-20-2009, 05:41 AM
well although that didnt take place in the movie i had read that some where before

Nickdfresh
01-20-2009, 09:56 AM
I was thinking the same thing. The likelihood of a very attractive young women just walking past vengeful (and horny) Soviet soldiers and not being accosted would be nil...

But I imagine it is possible in just the right circumstance: i.e. the Red Army is too busy and distracted and there are too many officers present - and they're too concerned taking Heer and SS into custody while fearing that the Germans might try some sort of surrender-ambush-ruse...

I'm certain that her friend from the bunker that decided to stay was severally mistreated at least....

Rising Sun*
01-20-2009, 10:01 AM
Well they said something about not looking in there eyes but I bet she would have been raped in all reality

Why would she have been raped in 'all reality'?

What evidence do you have to support your 'bet' that this would have been the case?

Schuultz
01-20-2009, 10:11 AM
Well, there's been an interview with her, and there's been mention of it in the Making of and I believe she also talks about it in her Biography, if I'm not mistaken (Haven't read it).

Nickdfresh
01-20-2009, 10:21 AM
Why would she have been raped in 'all reality'?

What evidence do you have to support your 'bet' that this would have been the case?

Firstly, I'm not saying she was nor wasn't. I think it is entirely plausible that she got out.

Have you read Beevor's "Stalingrad?" I haven't even gotten to "Berlin" yet, but I think we can summarize that rape, along with coerced relationships, was far from uncommon. We can argue that some have exaggerated it to some extent, but I think saying that few German women were raped, at least in the earlier stages, during the occupation would be revisionist.

And I'm not saying that this was inherently confined to the Red Army and I am quite aware of the "stupid peasant drinking-from-the-toilet" motif forwarded by German propagandists that began with Goebbels far too simplistic and convenient. But I think it is well documented that rapes occured...

flamethrowerguy
01-20-2009, 10:49 AM
I'm certain that her friend from the bunker that decided to stay was severally mistreated at least....

No, she (Gerda Christian, actually Hitler's "fave") was lucky. She joined the group around Otto Günsche (Hitler's personal Adjutant) and made it through the russian lines.
She was later arrested by US MP forces in Bavaria.

kamehouse
01-20-2009, 11:04 AM
Something to take into consideration about the Red Army is that Russia needed so much manpower that prisonners were released from jail to fill up ranks augmenting the risks of rape,killings,loot etc...
I am quite sure that theorically any soldiers caught in these acts would be shot on the spot by Russian officers.

Schuultz
01-20-2009, 01:55 PM
Something to take into consideration about the Red Army is that Russia needed so much manpower that prisonners were released from jail to fill up ranks augmenting the risks of rape,killings,loot etc...
I am quite sure that theorically any soldiers caught in these acts would be shot on the spot by Russian officers.

If they were walking away from the battle while doing so, for sure. ;)

But with Traudl Junge, she actually became somewhat of a 'sex slave' for a russian officer, at least for a short time, IIRC. I'll start looking for the source as soon as i come home.

jcompton
01-20-2009, 04:33 PM
Well after all the talk about this film i had to watch it... Just finished and i have to say it was very captivating. You really want to not like some of these people but just imagine what stress they were under when Hitler went off on one of his dellusional rantings and were ordering them to move divisions that no longer existed.

namvet
01-20-2009, 08:02 PM
Der Untergang (2004) from the IMDB link (link) Traudl Junge (Lara), the final secretary for Adolf Hitler (Ganz), tells of the Nazi dictator's final days in his Berlin bunker at the end of WWII contains movie trailer as well. I don't remember it. but it is available at family videos. 2 copies one released in 2005 and 2006. I can't get blockbuster their down. ill try an get a copy. thanks for positing !!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UDK0uESuBA

Schuultz
01-20-2009, 08:20 PM
It's definitely worth the effort, namvet. Just make sure you don't have a problem with reading subtitles, there's no version with English dubs, only subtitles.:D

If you get really desperate, PM me, I'll send you a link from where you can get it;)

namvet
01-20-2009, 09:23 PM
Schuultz: for some reson im banned from replying to your post. I have NO idea why.

anyway thanks for the offer. i may take you up on it. family videos show 2 different movies here listed under downfall. one is called Death in the Bunker Release Date: 8/8/2006. perhaps this is the english version??? strange. its not listed on IMDB. but I found it on amazon. do you know anything about this one???? amazon link (amazon link) I always go after rental so I can burn a copy of it. but it may be one I have to buy.

Nickdfresh
01-20-2009, 09:27 PM
Something to take into consideration about the Red Army is that Russia needed so much manpower that prisonners were released from jail to fill up ranks augmenting the risks of rape,killings,loot etc...
I am quite sure that theorically any soldiers caught in these acts would be shot on the spot by Russian officers.

Well, even law abiding Russian (and other Soviet) men were also to bear witness to the horrifying spectacle of recently liberated Russian areas and the millions of murdered civilians. In that context, I could understand their rage and I don't think the rapes were simply a throwback to the primal raping and pillaging of yesteryear by conquering soldiers and what Beevor referred to parenthetically as "the darker aspect of male sexuality." I think it was an unofficial weapon of revenge to shame the German soldiers, as well as the manifestation of an empowerment to a solder that knew little if any power in a totalitarian army. Beevor states in "Stalingrad" that there was a measure of freedoms given to Red Army soldiers during the "Great Patriotic War," and they could largely denounce what they saw as incompetence by commanders, etc., without fear of reprisals as long as they weren't being defeatist or sympathizing with their enemies.

When it became clear that they were going to win, this measure of freedom of speech and action was gradually stripped from soldiers and the state began to re-enforce the stringent thought control via a reinvigorated political officer cadre that had been marginalized as Zhukov and the competent Red Army generals gained strength in the increasing desperation resulting in defeat after defeat. Then, I think they felt a bit diminished and perhaps needed an outburst that could not be easily curtailed by the state and perhaps they found it in the control of women, objects, and women as objects in a defeated society? I dunno, that's just my personal belief. But the rape and breakdown of the Soviet Red Army as they approached Berlin I think is a complex phenomena that cannot be summed up with simplistic "Red Army soldiers are animals and simpleton peasants" pronouncements of Goebbels.

I should add that French troops, of a more cultured and Westernized educated society also went on an orgy of violence in their sectors to a lessor extent. And their were incidents within virtually all armies where discipline broke-down. US soldiers in North Africa went on a similar rape'athon in Algeria I believe, that was only stopped by the incessant reporting of French Gendarmes. The women they targeted were initially the Berber women, then French colonials and Jews. Many of the Berber women no doubt would have male relatives fighting with the French on the Allied side (who themselves went on an appalling rampage in Italy - to the extent that they were almost fired on by US and British troops to stop their wholesale raping and destruction in the Italian countryside under French officers that could care less). This is an interesting and very uncomfortable phenomena; that is what people can do in the break down of good order --simply because they can! But I think it quite clearly involves more than soldiers who are simpleton peasants getting horny and having their way as rape cannot be very much fun sexually unless there's a lot going on that involves little regarding sex; I think it has a whole series of factors that involve a lot of anger, and internal sense of emasculation, and neurosis.

flamethrowerguy
01-20-2009, 10:02 PM
Schuultz: for some reson im banned from replying to your post. I have NO idea why.

anyway thanks for the offer. i may take you up on it. family videos show 2 different movies here listed under downfall. one is called Death in the Bunker Release Date: 8/8/2006. perhaps this is the english version??? strange. its not listed on IMDB. but I found it on amazon. do you know anything about this one???? amazon link (amazon link) I always go after rental so I can burn a copy of it. but it may be one I have to buy.

Allow me to jump in. This "Death in the Bunker" DVD should be a documentary.
"Downfall" respectively "Der Untergang" in german is the movie we're talking about. There are two different versions available: the regular one (150 mins) and the extended version (177mins plus loads of "special features").
Original german language with english subtitles would be as good as it gets.

namvet
01-20-2009, 10:52 PM
Allow me to jump in. This "Death in the Bunker" DVD should be a documentary.
"Downfall" respectively "Der Untergang" in german is the movie we're talking about. There are two different versions available: the regular one (150 mins) and the extended version (177mins plus loads of "special features").
Original german language with english subtitles would be as good as it gets.

yes I just found out about it being a documentary. thanks for the info flamethrowerguy

kamehouse
01-21-2009, 07:48 AM
@Nick ,very good post.Thanks for the input.

Schuultz
01-21-2009, 07:51 AM
I guess you have to look for the German title on IMDB...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/
I didn't find it under the English title, either.