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Panzerknacker
11-16-2008, 11:52 AM
Probably the less know of all the aircraft armament of WW2. This is a topic that I had in my mind for a while, now after collecting some good info I think I am in the conditions to provide a good topic.

And you know all my my topics are excellent so...:mrgreen:

http://i35.tinypic.com/20sbsxd.jpg

Panzerknacker
11-16-2008, 11:56 AM
The FIAT M1928.

The Fabrica Italiana Automobile Torino ( italian Torino car factory) is one of the Europes biggest car industries and it was in the ww1 one of Italy main suppliers of ground based and aviation machineguns, mostly the design of Revelli.

After the great war the FIAT created in 1926 a subsidiary devoted exclusively to the machineguns, that was the Societa Anonima Fabrica Armi Torino, or anonymous society Torino guns factory, mostly know as its abreviated S.A.F.A.T designation.

http://i36.tinypic.com/2928b3l.jpg

The first aircraft machinegun produced by the S.A.F.A.T was the M1928, this is a scaled up variant of the infantry light M1926, with a belt fed and increased rate of fire.

However its main change was the adoption of the 8 mm Fiat cartrigde instead the usual M1891 6,5 mm ammunition.
Worth to mention that the "8mm FIAT" designation was in fact a fancy name for the 7,7x56R, no other than the british .303 cartrigde, both types were completely interchangeable.

The M1928 was installed in some biplane fighters of the late 1920s and early 1930s, but proven unrealible ( sometimes the case was fractured and parts remains left in the chamber !) and difficult to synchronizate so it was replaced by the better Breda designs.

Fiat S.A.F.A.T M1928.

Caliber: 8 mm Fiat.

Type of action: mechanically delayed blowback.

Charging: manually by wire.

Rate of fire: no less than 720 rpm.

Lenght: 1250 mm

Weight: 16.5 kg unloded

Muzzle velocity: 745 mps.

Panzerknacker
11-16-2008, 07:45 PM
FIAT light machinegun mechanism:

This drawing of the internal components inside the infantry M1926 help to understand the delayed blowback mechanism in the M1928 MG, wich was basically the same.

http://i34.tinypic.com/b68uvq.jpg

Panzerknacker
11-16-2008, 07:48 PM
Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7 mm MG.

http://i38.tinypic.com/scdo4o.jpg

The italian air force was by late 1920 clearly aware of the limitations of its late Fiat designed Mgs, in order to solve that problem it launched a specification for a new aircraft machinegun in 1929.

Both Fiat and the Brescia based Breda factory responded the requeriments. but breda 7,7mm machinegun with Browning type of action proven more reliable and lighter.

Disapointed with its failure to provide to the goverment the FIAT sold it weapons manufacture subsidiary to Breda. For that point and onwards the Breda aircrat machineguns were designated as Breda S.A.F.A.T guns.

The Breda SAFAT 7,7 mm was a disintegable link belt fed, air cooled and recoil operated machinegun. After the trigger is depressed bolt and barrel recoiled togheters for 11 mm then the blot in disingaged by a cam milled in the receiver, opening the chamber, extracting, introducing a fresh cartrigde and repeating and the cycle again.

The gun fired at closed bolt and with a lighter firing pin that the Brownings types, so it was very suitable for synchronizated mountings. Pneumatic charging was provided for wings mounting and some fuselage emplacements.
It was also very popular as defensive machinegun in bombers and recce airplanes ip to 1942.

Two views of the Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7 mm side defensive emplacements in Fiat RS 14 recce seaplane. Note the neat layout wich included a roof mounted magazine and alluminium container for spent belt links.

http://i38.tinypic.com/2zo9qix.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/tak17c.jpg

Panzerknacker
11-17-2008, 05:45 PM
Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7mm, internal components, scans from the Spanish Air force handbook

http://i35.tinypic.com/dy6heg.jpg


http://i34.tinypic.com/rtzvyq.jpg


http://i34.tinypic.com/mk9bx0.jpg


http://i34.tinypic.com/fjgq9w.jpg


http://i37.tinypic.com/8xk8eu.jpg


http://i34.tinypic.com/jqrssx.jpg


http://i35.tinypic.com/1zmi1ap.jpg


http://i37.tinypic.com/fwhuky.jpg


http://i38.tinypic.com/2aexdg6.jpg

Panzerknacker
11-18-2008, 05:11 PM
In Savoia Marchetti S-79 bomber.

http://i38.tinypic.com/zj72gn.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/w9w3dl.jpg

Wing emplacement, Reggiane Re-2001.

http://i36.tinypic.com/5bp543.jpg

Breda S.A.F.A.T 7,7mm in defensive turret, Breda Ba 88.

http://i35.tinypic.com/i2o6ro.jpg

Characteristics Breda S.A.F.A.T cal 7,7 mm

Caliber : 7,7 mm Breda ( 7,7 x 56R)

Type of action: short recoil, mascheroni muzzle booster.

Rate of fire: 800-820 rpm ( 650-680 rpm in synchronizated emplacements)

Lenght: 1190 mm

weight 12,5 kg.

Panzerknacker
11-23-2008, 09:54 AM
Scotti M1932 cal 7,7 mm.

The other rifle caliber machinegun used by the Regia Aeronautica was the Scotti gun. The designation is after its designer Alfredo Scotti, however the machinegun was actually manufactured by Isotta-Fraschini, an industrial consortium wich also made luxury cars and aero engines.

http://i35.tinypic.com/pvcc3.jpg

Mechanism in the Scotti was operated by gas, with a rotating bolt head for breech operation. The gun fires at open bolt and with higher rate of fire than the Breda SAFAT of the same calibre.

http://i34.tinypic.com/s2f7mh.jpg

The open bolt system did not qualify for synchronizated mounting so the Scotti was almost exclusively used in flexible defensive emplacements.

2 views of waist 7,7 mm defensive Scotti MG emplacements in Bomber CANT Z 1007.

http://i33.tinypic.com/neuujs.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/kcf7nk.jpg

Géppuskás
11-23-2008, 03:36 PM
Hello there,
Wonderful pictures and great information,although the photo of the SM 79's interior and the one showing the CANT Z.1007 interior looks like so similar to me,including the machine gun mount.Isn't it possible that the two photos show one type of aircraft?I'm really far from being an expert,actually this is the first time I see an Italian bomber's interior,but they just looks so similar.Thanks for any help or correction.

Panzerknacker
11-23-2008, 06:57 PM
Hello there,
Wonderful pictures and great information,


Danke schön.


although the photo of the SM 79's interior and the one showing the CANT Z.1007 interior looks like so similar to me,including the machine gun mount.

Indeed, the articulated mount is the same, the ammunition belt "guide" and the accordeon like conduct for spent cartrigdes are the same, however the guns and the aircraft are different.

Scotti ( Isotta Fraschini) M1932 cal 7,7 mm characteristics:

Action: gas operated, air cooled.

Rate of fire: 850-880 rpm

Caliber: 7,7 x 56R

Lenght: 1120 mm

Weight: 11.5 kg.

Muzzle velocity: 740 mps.

Detail of the ammo supply and used ammunition collector.

http://i33.tinypic.com/okzdhd.jpg

Panzerknacker
11-25-2008, 05:07 PM
7,7mm x 56R cartrigdes for Breda, Scotti and FIAT light MG.

Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (al fosforo)

API steel core bullet with phosphor, 12 grams projectile, muzzle velocity 750 mps. Armor penetration 7 mm at 150 meters.

http://i38.tinypic.com/zbos0.jpg

Perforante Incendiaria Speciale (alla termite)

API ammunition with explosive filling . 11,8 grams projectile, muzzle velocity 755 mps.

http://i34.tinypic.com/30wpgur.jpg

7,7 Breda da osservazione

Observation round, actually an explosive with nose fuse, this is more or less a italian version of the B-patrone used by the Luftwaffe.

http://i35.tinypic.com/2nvs4sx.jpg

7,7 Breda tracciante luminosa.

A full metal jacket bullet with very bright tracer in base for day use. Muzzle velocity 760mps.

http://i36.tinypic.com/35jxlr7.jpg

Panzerknacker
11-26-2008, 05:37 PM
Breda S.A.F.A.T cal 12,7 mm.

One of the few achievements of the Regia Aeronautica in the interwar period was the hindsight for the need of a heavy caliber machinegun to deal with the increase size and durability of the new generation of combat aircrafts.

While many Air Forces still struggled in 1939 and 1940 with a collection of rifle caliber machineguns like the RAF and the Luftwaffe ( and the fact that the british pilots had to defend its homeland with 7,7 mm peashooters is still a bonenchilling one, at list for me) the Italians already were enjoying the services of a reliable half inch caliber machinegun.

Inside the nose turret, Fiat BR 20
http://i34.tinypic.com/6fwa2o.jpg

The Breda S.A.F.A.T 12,7 mm was a belt fed, short recoil operated weapon, essentially a italian modified Browning M1921 mechanism, but shorter and slightly less heavy than the US machinegun.

It was mounted experimentally first in the biplane CR 30 and was introduced in large scale in the CR 32 fighter. There was available in fixed wing, fixed synchronizated and defensive turret emplacements. The rate a fire wasnt high as a MG 131 and its muzzle velocity didnt match the one of the US M2 50caliber, but the SAFAT was a well constructed, sturdy and sound design that rarely jammed in action.

Above fuselage synchronizated, Fiat CR 32.
http://i35.tinypic.com/21mu8ow.jpg

Unfortunately for the italian fighter pilots their aeronautical designers had the depressing tendendy to emplace only a pair above the engine wich reduced the rate of fire. Probably with 4 or 6 Bredas in the wings, shooting outside the propeller arc the Macchis, Reggianes and Fiats would made a better oponents in WW2.

Synchronizated, Fiat CR 42 Falco.
http://usuarios.lycos.es/miguelfiz/breda_Y_derivados/CR42_breda.jpg

Synchronizated, Reggiane Re 2001, note the San Giorgio Reflex gunsight.

http://i37.tinypic.com/125n779.jpg

Géppuskás
11-27-2008, 04:14 AM
Breda S.A.F.A.T cal 12,7 mm.

Inside the nose turret, Fiat BR 20
http://i34.tinypic.com/6fwa2o.jpg


You are surely right about the bombers.
I always thought that noseturret of the Br.20 was equipped with 7,7mm Breda.Is it a later version of the plane or what?
Anyway really good pictures again,waiting for more.

Panzerknacker
11-27-2008, 04:29 PM
Good eye :), it is a 7,7mm Breda, my mistake.

Breda 12,7 in remote controlled G1 and Z2 turrets in Piaggio P-108 bomber
http://i38.tinypic.com/9ibl90.jpg


http://i33.tinypic.com/a161cn.jpg


Waist emplacement in the same bomber.
http://i33.tinypic.com/288yrns.jpg

Panzerknacker
11-28-2008, 08:53 AM
3 in Breda 88 nose.

http://i37.tinypic.com/4hei5u.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/21bpxdu.jpg



Characteristicas Breda S.A.F.A.T 12,7 mm

Caliber: 12,7x81 mm semirimmed.

Operation: Short recoil with muzzle booster.

Refrigeration: air

Weight: 26,5 kg

Charging; manually charged in in flexible mounting plus CR-32, 42 and Re-2000/2001 fittings. The others pneumatically charged.

Rate of fire: 700 rpm

Muzzle velocity: 765 mps.

TheBeam
11-29-2008, 04:24 PM
Wow, great post. I can't contribute at all, but I enjoyed the read and all the photos too. Thanks to all who posted!

Panzerknacker
11-30-2008, 09:48 AM
Wow, great post. I can't contribute at all, but I enjoyed the read and all the photos too


Thank you very much for your comment.

Scotti M1933 cal 12,7mm

Alfredo Scotti had also one of its gas operated guns modified to shoot the heavy machinegun caliber. It was adopted in a more limited manner than the Breda .50, mostly for turret defensive emplacements in several types of bombers, recce and transports. The rate of fire was slightly higher than its predecessor. Probably the best characteristics was the lesser weight.

http://i34.tinypic.com/28junm1.jpg

The open bolt action favoured refrigeration and avoided cook-off of the ammunition after long burst, but again denied the adaptation of a synchronization mechanism.

Scotti also proposed a wing variant with remote charging but it did not entered in service in Service with the Regia Aeronautica probably because at that time the italians were interested in a 20 mm weapon.

Ventral turret, Savoia SM 84 bomber.
http://i34.tinypic.com/t0oscp.jpg


Scotti 12,7mm in Lanciani type 1 manually operated turret, the rear tube was the aerodinamic counterweight.
http://i38.tinypic.com/dd1d0m.jpg

Lanciani type 1 dorsal turret above Fiat RS 14
http://i35.tinypic.com/21lq44n.jpg


Operator of a Lanciani type 1 turret depicted inside the CANT Z 1007 bomber.
http://i38.tinypic.com/29ehkly.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-01-2008, 06:11 PM
Side fuselage Scottis, P-108.

http://i38.tinypic.com/35kj1jq.jpg


Characteristics Scotti M1933:

Caliber: 12,7x81 semirimmed

Action: gas operated , rotating bolt lock.

Refrigeration: air

Feeding: desintegrable metallic belt

Charging; manually charged

Lenght: 1170mm

Rate of fire: 750 rounds per minute

Muzzle velocity: 760 mps.

Weight: 21 kg.

Panzerknacker
12-02-2008, 04:53 PM
12,7x81SR ammunition.

The ammo employed in the italian heavy machineguns was originally designed by Vickers in 1920s, after the fauilure of the "class B" Mg chambered for this round, the cartrigde was slightly modified ( from rimless to semi rimmed) and offered for export.
Both italy and Japan eventually used it in WW2.

From left to right:

a) Ball
b) FMJ Tracer
c) Armor piercing with hardened steel core

http://i34.tinypic.com/118d213.jpg

d) Incendiary
e) AP-Incendiary without tracer, both bullets had a blue tip.

http://i34.tinypic.com/2rpxykg.jpg

There was also a "scopiante" fully explosive bullet with impact fuze, despite the fact many experts considered the 20mm as the minimum practical diameter for a HE shell the italians didnt agreed, and used a generous quantity of explosives in the fighters ammunition belt.
This type of projectile was indicated by a yellow band.

http://i38.tinypic.com/2nalch4.jpg

Muzzle velocity of the 12,7x81mm ammo varied between 750 and 771mps, projectile weight between 32 to 38,5 grams.

tankgeezer
12-02-2008, 07:25 PM
True, most MFG's of munitions did not consider the 12.7 or .50 cal projos to be worth the trouble of using an HE filling. this was flawed thinking, as in anti aircraft, and ground support roles this type of ammo would have been very helpful. There isnt alot to an airframe, or light skinned vehicle, so even a small amount of explosive could produce more damage than plain ball, or even incendiary.

Panzerknacker
12-03-2008, 07:09 AM
Italians, japanese, Germans and Russian employed rifle calibre explosive ammunition during ww2. Incidentaly the modern Raufoss "mark 211" used by the US Army and USMC snipers in their 50 calibers rifles is also a explosive-incendiary with armor pirecing capabilities.

The problem in ww2 was the fuze technology wich occupied a lot of space in the bullet leaving litttle to the explosive content.

Panzerknacker
12-04-2008, 07:07 AM
Mauser MG 151/20

One of the most bizarres topic of WW2 italian aircarft armament of how they failed to provide a 20mm gun. The Regia aeronautica purchased some Oerlikon "L" cannon in early 1930s for seaplanes, but just in small quantities.
They have also two army/navy AAA full automatic guns, both chambered for the german 20x138B cartrigde; the Breda 20/65 and the Isotta-Fraschini (Scotti design) 20/70, however there were no attemps to convert that weapons in airborne guns.

In lieu of a modern fast firing 20 mm cannon indigenous design for aircraft the italian purchased the Mauser reliable MG 151 and adapted it to several types of fighters.

For detailed information on the MG 151/20 and its ammunition:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4127&page=3

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4127&page=4


Reggiane Re-2001 CN, 2 Mausers under wings.
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/re2001/re2001-5.jpg

Reggiane Re-2005 2 x 20 mm Mauser in wings plus one in the engine.
http://i38.tinypic.com/25u4b9x.jpg


Servicing the starboard Mauser in a Fiat G-55.
http://i37.tinypic.com/4rfe4p.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-05-2008, 09:24 AM
-Long and short gun cover in Fiat G-55 of the ANR.

- Squematic of engine and wing emplacement in Fiat G-56

- 6 x MG 151 in project Fiat G-58

http://i33.tinypic.com/24g7fdi.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/fncjkn.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/erx6ye.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/afdco2.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-07-2008, 09:25 AM
Breda dal 37/54

http://i37.tinypic.com/s1ohnn.jpg

This was the standard Italian close-range AA weapon used on larger ships during World War II. The guns used in the Model 1932 mountings were gas operated, water-cooled with a recirculating pump, but the others were air-cooled. The magazines held only six rounds, but it was possible to load them one after the other and thus maintain a high rate of fire.
The adaptation for aircraft was first requested in 1941 and took place in 1942.

A single Fiat BR 20 was equipped with a 37mm gun in a solid nose, it was designated BR 20Ca ( ca for Cannoncino, aircraft cannon) . More serious attemp took place in the Fiat Cansa C 20 and Savoia Marchetti SM 89 attack bombers, wich were designed to be the italian Henschel Hs-129s but faster and with better bomb load. The prototypes of this models first flew in 1940, however the 37mm armed variants did it in mid 1943 when the final was close for Italy and they only remained as a experimental airplanes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/Coridano/Bisunten.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/vgh5w3.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-10-2008, 06:49 PM
More images of the 37mm gun.

In Fiat Cansa FC 20 ter. The gun is laying in a side in order to be feed from above.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/Coridano/Apostolo.jpg


2 x 37mm, Savoia Marchetti SM 89.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3391/93045546ic2.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-11-2008, 07:12 PM
47 mm autocannon:

This gun was made around the infantry AT cartrigde 47/32 Breda. It seems it was used only in the Breda 88 and Fiat AS 14.

http://i35.tinypic.com/117hf05.jpg

http://i38.tinypic.com/9kwdy1.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/211orv7.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/2lavsw8.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2h4c035.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-14-2008, 06:11 PM
The 47 mm gun installed in Breda Ba 88 (underfuselage)

http://i33.tinypic.com/2w7on87.jpg


In the nose of Fiat AS 14 attack aircraft.

http://i35.tinypic.com/v4z4pj.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/dmenpk.jpg

Panzerknacker
12-28-2008, 01:58 PM
Ansaldo 102mm/40.

http://i44.tinypic.com/mido1s.jpg

In late 1942 the Regia Aeronautica began to explore using its larger bomber, the Piaggio P-108B as a long rance maritime recce and attack aircraft, much like the way as the Fw 200 employment in the Luftwaffe.

For that task several types of armament were tested in this aircraft, including radio controlled topredos and armor piercing bombs. However the closeness to enemy Flak remained as a problem. An alternative to attack transport ships and destroyed was to employ heavy artillery piece.

Originally a 75 mm antitank cannon was to be used, but eventually the heavier 102mm was selected to arm the P-108A ( A for artigliere, artilleryman)

The Ansaldo fist tested the gun in ground shooting inside a mock up nose in october 1942.
In april 1943 2 P-108A were ready for test.

Ansaldo`s 102mm howitzer was emplaced in a solid nose aimed by the copilot with a Reflex San Giorgio gunsight with a line of fire tangent up to 4000 meters. It had weight of 680 kg, and was manually loaded from a revolving ammunition dispenser of 6 rounds. A total of 53 round could be carried in the frontal section of the aircraft, the complete gun ad related devices/ammunition weight over 1500 kilos. Some minor damage to the nose section forced to use a steel sheet to protect the structure from the muzzle blast.

http://i40.tinypic.com/23u4tih.jpg

The Piaggio P-108A was tested intensively until september 1943, the 4000 meters range was saw as excesive and most of the shots were carried out at 1500 metes for better view of the target. there is no information if this type entered in action. One was captured by the Luftwaffe and tested as well in Rechlin in early 1944.

http://i42.tinypic.com/1zbxcv7.jpg

Panzerknacker
01-05-2009, 06:17 PM
I forgot to mention that the muzzle velocity of the 44 calibres 102 mm gun was 700mps. Armor penetration with apc projectile 165 mm @ 500 meters.

http://i44.tinypic.com/4dz6p.jpg

Panzerknacker
02-10-2010, 07:34 PM
The only Fiat fighter ever to carry 12,7 mm Breda S.A.F.A.Ts in the wings, the G50 bis A, the emplacement was not quite simple adding 0,8 meters to the wingspan.

http://i49.tinypic.com/avkd4k.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/fcvitz.jpg

fredl109
01-02-2012, 05:27 PM
Hello Panzerknacker, it is an excellent post that you made here, but I would like to bring a supplementary information has those that will read it, it is that all this beautiful weapons had a big default, them n' were not particularly efficient, because most suffered overheating and a lack cruel from rate of shooting, besides they were sensitive to their environment and stopped themselves easily. Yet their munitions were effective, but most these weapons endured old conception and especially of uselessly complicated breech mechanism. There is what I could bring you like information while hoping that it helps you a few more.
Fred regards

Panzerknacker
01-03-2012, 09:31 AM
Hello Panzerknacker, it is an excellent post that you made here, but I would like to bring a supplementary information has those that will read it, it is that all this beautiful weapons had a big default, them n' were not particularly efficient, because most suffered overheating and a lack cruel from rate of shooting, besides they were sensitive to their environment and stopped themselves easily. Yet their munitions were effective, but most these weapons endured old conception and especially of uselessly complicated breech mechanism. There is what I could bring you like information while hoping that it helps you a few more.
Fred regards

Wich weapons in particular you are talking about ? the 50 caliber breda is quated as a reliable machinegun in most sources.

http://usuarios.lycos.es/miguelfiz/breda_Y_derivados/Breda_2.jpg

fredl109
01-03-2012, 05:16 PM
Hello Panzerknacker, yes indeed it was relatively a good weapon, but its main default was that its munition was a lot less fast than one 12.7mm American and that the performance of its munition was also least, if the shell made well 12.7mm of diameter, on the other hand its length was least that the American munition and by lighter consequence. What caused less damages to the impacte.
Fred regards

Panzerknacker
01-03-2012, 05:36 PM
Less damage because the lower muzzle velocity ?, yes that is correct, but in my opinion it was not so important, M2 had 850 mps, and Breda ( and scotti) 12,7mm had 775 mps. The problem for the italian was they had only a pair of heavy machineguns of their fighters (sometimes complemented by 2 light machinegun), simply wasnt enough, remember the USAAF used at list 4 or 6 even 8 heavy machineguns and without synchronization in order not to dimish the rate of fire.

http://aircraft-list.com/keywords/Reggiane_Re.2000/Reggiane_Re.2000_62.jpg

fredl109
01-07-2012, 07:43 AM
Effectively my dear Panzerknacker, there is also this problem, but he doesn't remain less that the lack of punch of the Italian weapons put them a lot of worries, there were only the German and after the English in Europe, that had consisted of the utility of a big power of fire, there is only has watch the arming of their two main hunters, that is to say the Messerschmidt and the Focke Wulf. The Japanese had also understood quickly the whole profit that they could pull a heavy arming. There is not that the Italian that had this problem, the French planes were they also equipped with weak caliber weapons. It is necessary to remember that in aerial fight the time of contact with the enemie is short and more the impacte of the weapons of sides is violent and devastating, more the luck to see his destroyed enemie or greatly damaged has the first pass is big, besides it also increases luck of have not have get back in position to finish work, especially with regard to the bombardiers.
Fred regards

burp
01-09-2012, 06:15 AM
Italian airplanes are well-know for using only narrow number of heavy machine gun and no cannons. Look at the Fiat CR.42, Fiat G.50 or Macchi MC.200, these 3 models form the backbone of fighter units. They have only 2 x 12.7 mm machine guns. The US P-47 have 8 x 12.7 mm machine guns. Spitfire and BF-109 use at least 2 x 20mm cannons plus machine guns. The problem of slower ammunitions it's a "minor" defect. The real problem was the difference in numbers of guns. The Allies airplanes can simply send in the same time a greater number bullet of same and bigger caliber. The effect of multiple hits by 20 mm on light armored Italian airplanes are devastating.
Only with 5 series (Fiat G.55/G.56, Macchi MC.205 and Reggiane Re.205) the Italian airplanes use a mix of 20 mm cannons and 12.7 machine guns.

stano666
01-09-2012, 10:24 AM
Superb thread from colonel Panzerknacker (another very interesting read from you once more), ich bin sie vielen dank verschuldigt (i owe you many thanks.., (my germen isn't perfect :))
@ burp (chears btw) the Bf 109 F series had 1X 20mm and 2X 8mm (i know it's 7.9, but 8 is nice round number) and this was criticised by the likes of A.Galland (and probably many german fighter pilots) for 'lacking punch' yet the Bf got ('only') 2x 13mm (rounded up number again) and 1X 20mm from G-5 series(*) onwards (*= besides underwing gunpods (wich hampered performance) and i'm using my 'punch lacking'memory here, so excuse me if i'm wrong) The upgraded (2X 13mm)109 got nicknamed: 'beule' wich can be translated as 'hunchback' (i'm not sure if it was meant affectionately or negatively, but thats an different story)
Now i wonder: with the Japanese philosophy of keeping planes as light as possible (for better range and agility, and for the cost of armour a.o.) weren't many of the axis fighter planes 'lightly' armed ??? I'd guess they did their jobs non the less, atleast the german fighters (mostly Bf 109 F and G series) did well on the easterfront, against russian planes of whom (so i've been told) the guns had considerable firepower. But i'm sure Panzerknacker's knowledge of these matters (and in this case the italian gun effectiveness of WWII against rivals) is far greater than mine (and many with me).
So i wish you well in 2012 and keep those writings coming this ways, for they are wel reading for me (and many others), and even though i might not make many (written) contributions, i'm still reading your articles with joy and gratitude..., thanks.
Greetings stano666 (btw i don't have a pc, i use a PS3 wich does things slower (even gaming LOL) so that you know why it takes so much time when i write replys

fredl109
01-13-2012, 12:42 PM
I am entirely okay with you Burp, except that the weak speed and the weight of the munition are also a factor determining for the aerial fight, a heavier munition is in general a steadier munition. Besides the weight delivered every second makes the difference indeed, for info the 4 cannons of 30 mm of the Me 262 were the taken away most devastating weapons by a hunter, the only impact of 4 of these obuts was sufficient to destroy any hunters ally. The war of Korea proportion a revelation for the American that utilaient massively of the 12.7, indeed the reports of fights indicated that a consequent number of munitions was necessary of 12.7mm to knock a MiG 15 down, whereas in the same time, a plane equipped with cannon of 20 had a lot more luck to knock his/her/its target quickly down. For the Italian the hold of concience that their arming was too weak in relation to the allies was too belated and appeared too late in the course of the war, Trusted it G55 was equipped well of cannon MGde 20mm but it only appeared too late and in too small quantity to change whatever it is. Yet if one looks at his/her/its performances he/it was far from being handicapped face has his/her/its adversaries of the moment and at the time of the test that he/it undergoes here with the allemend those fure surprised because he/it was in many respects superior in the Messerschmidt 109K.
Fred regards

Panzerknacker
01-15-2012, 11:28 AM
Superb thread from colonel Panzerknacker (another very interesting read from you once more), ich bin sie vielen dank verschuldigt (i owe you many thanks.., (my germen isn't perfect :))
@ burp (chears btw) the Bf 109 F series had 1X 20mm and 2X 8mm (i know it's 7.9, but 8 is nice round number) and this was criticised by the likes of A.Galland (and probably many german fighter pilots) for 'lacking punch' yet the Bf got ('only') 2x 13mm (rounded up number again) and 1X 20mm from G-5 series(*) onwards (*= besides underwing gunpods (wich hampered performance) and i'm using my 'punch lacking'memory here, so excuse me if i'm wrong) The upgraded (2X 13mm)109 got nicknamed: 'beule' wich can be translated as 'hunchback' (i'm not sure if it was meant affectionately or negatively, but thats an different story)
Now i wonder: with the Japanese philosophy of keeping planes as light as possible (for better range and agility, and for the cost of armour a.o.) weren't many of the axis fighter planes 'lightly' armed ??? I'd guess they did their jobs non the less, atleast the german fighters (mostly Bf 109 F and G series) did well on the easterfront, against russian planes of whom (so i've been told) the guns had considerable firepower. But i'm sure Panzerknacker's knowledge of these matters (and in this case the italian gun effectiveness of WWII against rivals) is far greater than mine (and many with me).
So i wish you well in 2012 and keep those writings coming this ways, for they are wel reading for me (and many others), and even though i might not make many (written) contributions, i'm still reading your articles with joy and gratitude..., thanks.
Greetings stano666 (btw i don't have a pc, i use a PS3 wich does things slower (even gaming LOL) so that you know why it takes so much time when i write replys


Thanks, the japanese view on aerial combat was more like a thing of designers...not so on pilot who from 1942 onwards clearly were inclined to have more powerful armament on their fighters. The italians were limited more by some heavier construction of their airframes, with a profusion of steel tubing inside wich made sturdier aircraft but left less mass available for armament with the usual 800-1000hp italian engines available in 1938-41.


For the Italian the hold of concience that their arming was too weak in relation to the allies was too belated and appeared too late in the course of the war, Trusted it G55 was equipped well of cannon MGde 20mm but it only appeared too late and in too small quantity to change whatever it is. Yet if one looks at his/her/its performances he/it was far from being handicapped face has his/her/its adversaries of the moment and at the time of the test that he/it undergoes here with the allemend those fure surprised because he/it was in many respects superior in the Messerschmidt 109K.
Fred regards

A very little know experiment to bolster the firepower of the Fiat G55 was in the earlier pre-series, it had 4 Bredas 12.7mm, two above and 2 below the engine, after sometime the lower machineguns were seen as unpractical and removed in favour of 2 wings mounted Mausers.

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/458/pics/91_1.jpg

fredl109
01-15-2012, 05:00 PM
Hello to all, it is indeed a beautiful post my dear Panzerknacker, very interesting and documented very well. Since you put us a G55 Argentinian is what you would not have luck some more information on them. For information, in my other forum or me post Italy 1935 45, we made a post on the aviation Italian under other colors. And we have been surprised to see that a lot of countries of America of the South these are interested to the Italian aviation, it is surprising to see the number of sold devices in America of the South.
Fred Regards

stano666
01-15-2012, 05:02 PM
Btw, my eyes are quite pleased to see those italian designed plane's. If they fly as well as they look....., i guess you catch my drift.
Greeting stano666.

Panzerknacker
01-15-2012, 06:17 PM
Hello to all, it is indeed a beautiful post my dear Panzerknacker, very interesting and documented very well. Since you put us a G55 Argentinian is what you would not have luck some more information on them. For information, in my other forum or me post Italy 1935 45, we made a post on the aviation Italian under other colors. And we have been surprised to see that a lot of countries of America of the South these are interested to the Italian aviation, it is surprising to see the number of sold devices in America of the South.
Fred Regards

There is a book on the argentine G55, ill send you the link.


Btw, my eyes are quite pleased to see those italian designed plane's. If they fly as well as they look....., i guess you catch my drift.
Greeting stano666.

The Reggianes were the nicest and fastest.

Panzerknacker
01-27-2012, 08:08 PM
Effectiveness of Breda 12.7mm machinegun ammunition:

Here is an account written by a British pilot based in Malta, that describes the effect of these guns on his plane. It's interesting to read what the (famous but underrated) HE esplosive round was capable of doing in real life.
So many people still think these rounds were "useless" or just "tore fabric or metal skins off".

The action describes one of the first actions of the Macchi C.202s over Malta.
The aerial combat took place on the 22th of October 1941.
One of the Hurricanes was shot down, another one landed heavily damaged withouth Italian losses.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2845

fredl109
10-23-2012, 07:53 PM
Hello Panzerknacker, the article is effectively very interesting to read, my subjects preceding were not the to deny the qualities of the Italian weapons, they had the power and a shell of 12.7 remain a shell of 12.7, he/it is not better to receive one of it. What I wanted to make comprerndre that is that, whereas the allemends and the English passed to the cannon of 20 or 30, the arming of the Italian planes remained when to it relatively poor. The example of your G55 in watch the proof, because of the the departure he was only equipped of 12.7 that didn't give really satisfaction. Now it is necessary to know that the Italian munitions were contrary to what one thinks, of good qualities.
For information on what a simple weapon can make, I am going to take like example an AK47, certainly you will tell to me that it is not a fantastic aerial weapon and you will be right in part, only in part, bus at the time of the war of Vietnam, the Vietnamese pulled in air every time that a plane passed them over to the of the head, and well; represent yourselves that this small bullet of nothing at all, face has a F4 Phantom, provoked them some rips on the fuselage of more than iun measured of long, because the speed of the bullet added to the speed of the plane with an angle of 90 degree, it provokes seriousness damages, this example I pulled it from a narration of an American pilot in Vietnam, to say that even the things that appear petty can have big effects on a plane that displacing to big speed.
Friendly Fred

burp
11-14-2013, 11:22 AM
Regarding the Vietnam war, there is another important fact about effect on fire from small arms. The airplanes with jets are more "vulnerable" to damage from small objects than propeller driven airplanes: a projectile in the air intakes of a G-55 has not so much effect, instead it can be very dangerous for the moving parts of a reaction engine that works at high speed. And normally Vietkong must use a lot of light infantry guns in order to achieve results easily.

Panzerknacker
01-23-2016, 06:41 AM
The Breda SAFAT 12,7mm in the light flak role, 1943.

http://img265.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=344731640_breda03_122_124lo.jpg

http://img161.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=344727748_breda02_122_223lo.jpg

tankgeezer
01-24-2016, 05:02 PM
Thats one nice weapon, wish I could get one here.. (be fun to shoot on the weekends..) :)