PDA

View Full Version : Dmitry Medvedev's message to Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko on the "Holodomor"



Egorka
11-14-2008, 03:55 AM
Dmitry Medvedev sent a message to Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko on the subject of the so-called Holodomor (Hunger-plague).
Source: http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/text/docs/209178.shtml


TO THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAIN VIKTOR ANDREYEVICH YUSCHENKO.

Dear Viktor Andreyevich,

In response to your messages concerning the so-called Holodomor as well as the steps taken by the Ukrainian leadership on the issue, I consider it necessary to elaborate on our views of and approaches to the issues at hand.

I would immediately note the following. We clearly see that in recent years this topic combined with persistent attempts to receive a NATO «membership action plan», have become a central element of Ukrainian foreign policy. We also note the intention of the political elite and leadership of Ukraine to use this issue as a «test for patriotism and loyalty».

In your messages, you call for «removing the ideological layers from history». Naturally, I share this approach. But at the same time I propose that we be absolutely consistent and guided by the principle of fair, honest and non-partisan treatment of historical heritage.

In connection with this, I am forced to point out that, in our opinion, the tragic events of the early 1930s in Ukraine are being used to achieve immediate short-term political goals. In this regard, the thesis on the «centrally planned genocidal famine of Ukrainians» is being gravely manipulated. As a result, including thanks to your personal efforts, this interpretation has even received legislative support. In particular, I am referring to the law passed on 28 November 2006 by the Verkhovnaya Rada [Ukrainian parliament] that you signed, which states that «the famine of 1932-1933 in Ukraine was a genocide against the Ukrainian people». I would also mention your initiative to criminalize the denial of the events of the period as they are outlined in the law. Therefore without waiting for the results of a comprehensive study of the issue by competent experts, you imposed a single interpretation on this history. And dissenters are threatened with prosecution – just as they were in the totalitarian past. To put it mildly, according to this «one-sided logic» any citizen of Ukraine that claims that in addition to Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs and Belarusians died of starvation in the same period is, in your opinion, a criminal.

It is unlikely that such steps can be explained by the desire to restore historical justice or to honour the memory of the victims. These efforts rather seek to divide our peoples as much as possible, peoples united by many centuries of historical, cultural and spiritual ties, by special feelings of friendship and mutual trust.

The most difficult pages of our common history undoubtedly need to be fully explained. But this is only possible on the basis of objective professional studies. However, we see that those who push through the thesis of «Holodomor-genocide» are not in the least interested in historical accuracy. Various manipulations and distortions are occurring, data on the actual number of deaths are being falsified. Representatives of the Ukrainian authorities are making public statements that contribute to distorting the picture. Thus in an interview in November 2007 you refer to census data from 1929 and 1979 to argue that Ukrainians were the only nation whose population was halved during this period, and declined from 81 million to 42 million. Yet according to the All-Union census which, incidentally, was not held in 1929 but in 1926, the total number of Ukrainians in the USSR, including residents of the western areas, was about 30 million.

We are open for discussion and don’t want academics to take on political «attitudes». In our country the theme of the famine of 1932-1933 - as well as other difficult historical questions - can be discussed freely, without fear of becoming an «enemy of the nation». Russia has long ago destroyed the «Iron Curtain of silence» about which you write.

The famine in the Soviet Union in 1932-1933 was not aimed at the destruction of any one nation. It was the result of a drought, forced collectivization and de-kulakization [campaign of political repressions of the better-off peasants and their families] and affected the entire country, not only Ukraine. Millions of people in the middle and lower Volga regions, northern Caucasus, central Russia, southern Urals, western Siberia, Kazakhstan and Belarus died. We do not condone the repression carried out by the Stalinist regime against the entire Soviet people. But to say that it was aimed at the destruction of Ukrainians means going against the facts and trying to give a nationalist subtext to a common tragedy. As to referring to «qualitative differences» between the famine in Ukraine and that in Russia and other regions of the USSR, it is, in our view, merely cynical and immoral.

I would note that the decisions taken about collectivization were made by the multinational leadership of the Soviet Union and the Soviet republics, while the policy of enforced food requisition was carried out in the Ukrainian Republic by predominantly Ukrainian personnel. The latter both zealously acting on instructions from the centre as well as often making «counterplans», including reprisals against their brothers, Ukrainians themselves.

Historical truth demands that we adopt a responsible approach. But attempts to resort to the «national factor» are unfair to the memory of the victims, not to mention the questionable legal basis of such claims.

With regard to steps taken by the Ukrainian side in international organizations to «ascertain the nature and ensure the condemnation of such crimes» I would note that the UN and UNESCO have already expressed themselves on this subject. The 2007 UNESCO General Conference paid tribute to the millions of deaths from starvation in the 1930s regardless of the victims' nationality and refused to recognize this tragedy as a «genocide of the Ukrainian people». And at the 58th UN General Assembly most of the CIS member states including Russia, Ukraine and many other nations issued a joint statement in which they expressed their deepest sympathy to millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs and representatives of other nations, victims of starvation in USSR. The statement refers to the events of the 1930s as a «tragedy». I believe that further discussion of this topic in international organisations would not be beneficial and will not produce any results.

Therefore, as I have already said, we should focus on correcting a dangerous disparity which has arisen, whereby the slogan «condemnation of the genocide of Ukrainians» belittles the tragedy of other affected peoples of the former Soviet Union. I propose to begin work on a joint approach to these events. In doing so, it would be useful to involve experts from Kazakhstan, Belarus and other interested CIS countries.

Meanwhile, in the light of the above, I do not consider it possible to participate in the activities surrounding the 75th anniversary of the «Holodomor» in Ukraine.

For my part I would like to confirm my sincere desire to build a positive atmosphere of cooperation in the cultural and educational spheres, and to substantiate this cooperation with concrete actions that are understandable to our citizens and benefit the traditionally friendly relations between our countries and peoples.

Sincerely, Dmitry Medvedev.
printprint

Chevan
11-21-2008, 08:43 AM
Good post Egorka.
Actualy the Famine 1933-32 wasn't just in Ukraine , but we shall not forget that some political forces in Ukraine are going to exploit in its dirty nationalistic political plans.
The obvious tend here is to blame the Jews ( as the ruling ethnical group in Bolshevic Russia in 1930) and Russians in Holodomore.
Plus some of the pro/ultra-nationalist politics get it as a "legitime " reason to justify the terror of OWN UPA agains pro-Soviet Ukrainians in 1944-1953.
This is very dangerous for all of us.

Egorka
11-26-2008, 04:20 PM
Andrey, toy might want to look at this thread (http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70210)... if you have time. :)

Adrian Wainer
11-30-2008, 04:31 PM
Good post Egorka.
Actualy the Famine 1933-32 wasn't just in Ukraine , but we shall not forget that some political forces in Ukraine are going to exploit in its dirty nationalistic political plans.
The obvious tend here is to blame the Jews ( as the ruling ethnical group in Bolshevic Russia in 1930) and Russians in Holodomore.
Plus some of the pro/ultra-nationalist politics get it as a "legitime " reason to justify the terror of OWN UPA agains pro-Soviet Ukrainians in 1944-1953.
This is very dangerous for all of us.

Oh those poor Jews, isn't it not good Russia is such a true friend of the Jewish people that they are supplying the peace loving and progressive people of Iran with nuclear technology and placing missiles near Kalingrad to defend the Jews from those anti-semitic Poles. Is it is not just like World War 2, when the USSR staunchly opposed Nazism on everyfront.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland_(1939)

http://www.dziennik.pl/files/archive/00025/MR070403_006_25807l.jpg

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

pdf27
11-30-2008, 04:42 PM
Oh those poor Jews, isn't it not good Russia is such a true friend of the Jewish people that they are supplying the peace loving and progressive people of Iran with nuclear technology and placing missiles near Kalingrad to defend the Jews from those anti-semitic Poles. Is it is not just like World War 2, when the USSR staunchly opposed Nazism on everyfront.
This, children, is why drinking and posting is a bad idea.

Beer. Just say no!

Egorka
11-30-2008, 04:52 PM
Oh those poor Jews, isn't it not good Russia is such a true friend of the Jewish people that they are supplying the peace loving and progressive people of Iran with nuclear technology and placing missiles near Kalingrad to defend the Jews from those anti-semitic Poles. Is it is not just like World War 2, when the USSR staunchly opposed Nazism on everyfront.¿Qué?

Adrian Wainer
11-30-2008, 05:55 PM
This, children, is why drinking and posting is a bad idea.

Beer. Just say no!

Oh tres drole mon amie. Don't we all love Russia that beacon of light and democracy to the World.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Nickdfresh
11-30-2008, 06:53 PM
Am I supposed to give a shit what sock-puppet politicians say?

Really?

Nickdfresh
11-30-2008, 07:05 PM
Good post Egorka.
Actualy the Famine 1933-32 wasn't just in Ukraine , but we shall not forget that some political forces in Ukraine are going to exploit in its dirty nationalistic political plans.

But its effects were magnified as a political weapon with grain-confiscations and the use of collective punishments...


The obvious tend here is to blame the Jews ( as the ruling ethnical group in Bolshevic Russia in 1930) and Russians in Holodomore.

I didn't know Stalin was a Jewish Rabbi on training. I always thought he was a Georgian priest-wannabe...:confused:


Plus some of the pro/ultra-nationalist politics get it as a "legitime " reason to justify the terror of OWN UPA agains pro-Soviet Ukrainians in 1944-1953.
This is very dangerous for all of us.

Well, to be fair, there were a lot of extremist actions against anti-Soviet (insert nationality here) by the Moscow regime everywhere. Were there not?

pdf27
11-30-2008, 07:08 PM
Oh tres drole mon amie. Don't we all love Russia that beacon of light and democracy to the World.
Oh, so it's kick-a-Russian day is it? That post of yours was gratuitously off topic and borderline trolling. Are you sure trying to convince me you were sober when you wrote it is a good idea?

Chevan
12-01-2008, 01:30 AM
But its effects were magnified as a political weapon with grain-confiscations and the use of collective punishments...

True.
It was dekulakization - the forced economical elimination of thin layer of more or less rich peasantry, who were considered as Enemy Class for bolshevics.
It was everywhere including Syberia ,not just in Ukraine.


I didn't know Stalin was a Jewish Rabbi on training. I always thought he was a Georgian priest-wannabe...:confused:

You didn't know?:confused:
Now look at the list of whom were blame for Holodomore by the Ukraian SBU
http://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D0%BE%D1%80% D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%96%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1 %80%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0% BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83#.D0.A1.D0.BF.D0.B8.D1.8 1.D0.BE.D0.BA
List of Comparty and state officials who were personaly guilt in organisation of Holodomor.
from 19 top criminals - 16 have an Jewish families:)That's nice.
Now ask somebody , were they all Jewish Rabbi on training?:confused:
That list is a DIRECT confirmation of old Goebbels slogan- the JEws have exterminated the Ukrainians specially.
And don't play a naive....


Well, to be fair, there were a lot of extremist actions against anti-Soviet (insert nationality here) by the Moscow regime everywhere. Were there not?
Of couse Nicki.
Bolshevick aimed firstly to suppress the old Russian intelligensia layer. The Big Red Terror was started in 1918 against Russians.
And first Famine was on Volga region of 1921-22.
That don't make us to conclude that the Jewish origin Lenin and Trockij was aimed to organize the "genocide of Russians".
"Extremist action" did have no the "ethnical aims", but class.

Chevan
12-01-2008, 01:34 AM
Andrey, toy might want to look at this thread (http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70210)... if you have time. :)

Yes mate thank you , i've observed this thread.
Good new for me- you do participate in other forums.

Chevan
12-01-2008, 01:42 AM
Am I supposed to give a shit what sock-puppet politicians say?


Did you mean Medvedev or Obama?:mrgreen:

Chevan
12-01-2008, 01:44 AM
This, children, is why drinking and posting is a bad idea.

Beer. Just say no!
The beer indeed isn't such bad idea for children:)
Much better than alternative - Vodka and smoking grass:D

Egorka
12-01-2008, 05:41 AM
Am I supposed to give a shit what sock-puppet politicians say?
Really?
One of the thing i personally learned through year is to separate "who sais" from "what is being said".
On the subject of "what is being said" - if you brush away the ususal politicians talk and devide the rest by factor of 2 you will still have some interesting points that, IMHO, may be good to hear to a European/American reader.

Besides that thia is letter is now a document of the historical epoch and has sertai nvalue it itself.

Rising Sun*
12-01-2008, 05:45 AM
The beer indeed isn't such bad idea for children:)
Much better than alternative - Vodka and smoking grass:D

I was going to make a smart comment about it being a refreshing change for Russians to smoke grass rather than eat it, but it wouldn't be funny.

I remember a documentary made here in the 1970s where a well educated migrant of Eastern European origin (not Russian - maybe Hungarian or Polish) was shown attending a very upmarket dinner with people from different backgrounds where he mentioned that after the war his people were so short of food that they ate grass, which upset their stomachs but it was more acceptable made into a soup. Lady Clarke, a snobbish bitch from our landed gentry with a head like a horse and a brain to match, thought it was terribly funny to eat grass, and quaint to make soup from it, and she said so. The stupid bitch had no idea of how terrible it must have been to be reduced to that level of desperation.

Neither do I, and I'm grateful that I and the rest of us in the West don't.

The experiences of Eastern Europeans under various regimes, whether their own or invaders, are beyond anything we can really understand from our own range of experience.

Rising Sun*
12-01-2008, 05:49 AM
Am I supposed to give a shit what sock-puppet politicians say?

Really?

No.

Me neither.

Panzerknacker
12-01-2008, 08:16 AM
I was going to make a smart comment about it being a refreshing change for Russians to smoke grass rather than eat it, but it wouldn't be funny.



That was a good one.:)

This is a topic that I sincerely I dont master, but it seems the russians got some troubles accepting facts starting with "holo".

Rising Sun*
12-01-2008, 08:47 AM
That was a good one.:)

This is a topic that I sincerely I dont master, but it seems the russians got some troubles accepting facts starting with "holo".

I don't know what Argentinian perceptions of Russia are, but here many of us with a little knowledge of Russian history see part of it as a line of oppression and exploitation of the masses under the Czars and then the Bolsheviks, Stalinists, and their successors, and now the Russian capitalists and oligarchs in a laissez faire form of capitalism which is exactly what Marx railed against. It seems like the average Russian copped a belting from his or her government more often than not in the past century, and before, under all forms of government.

I think that made Russians an extraordinarily tough and resilient people who manage to survive forms of adversity which we in the West can't begin to comprehend.

As for Russians accepting facts about the Holodomor, from where I stand outside all of the bitterness the deaths of millions caused, I think the reality is probably that Stalin didn't single out the Ukraine for starvation in his plans but that it was just one of the areas where starvation occurred under his plans for cementing his position, which like Saddam Hussein, Hitler, and sundry others was the ultimate point of his existence.

Panzerknacker
12-01-2008, 06:22 PM
I don't know what Argentinian perceptions of Russia are, but here many of us with a little knowledge of Russian history see part of it as a line of oppression and exploitation of the masses under the Czars and then the Bolsheviks, Stalinists, and their successors, and now the Russian capitalists and oligarchs in a laissez faire form of capitalism which is exactly what Marx railed against. It seems like the average Russian copped a belting from his or her government more often than not in the past century, and before, under all forms of government


I more or less agree with your impression, I might ad my own derivated of knowing a few russians that come here looking for work in some car spare manufacturing in the late 90s early 2000.

The sensation I had after seeing and talking with that people is those are persons you will never know how they really feel at the moment. I always say that I can "read" people very easily, usually I know what is the state of mind of person who I talking to, if he is angry, happy, touched or if is trying to hide something.

However I cannot perfom that skills with the russian, they always talk with cold eyes, they have the same emotions of a dead fish, they simply dont trust anybody, I dont like it.

Perhaps that characteristics is derivated of the miseries that you have mentioned, not sure, but I really dont like it.

Adrian Wainer
12-01-2008, 06:24 PM
Oh, so it's kick-a-Russian day is it? That post of yours was gratuitously off topic and borderline trolling. Are you sure trying to convince me you were sober when you wrote it is a good idea?

I think you are conflating the Russian establishment with the Russian people, presumably next you will attacking George Orwell for writing animal farm. The Russian establishment in the past, Nicholas II, Lenin, Stalin and Brezhnev deserved a sound intelectual and ideological kicking as do Putin and Medvedev today.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Egorka
12-02-2008, 03:22 AM
However I cannot perfom that skills with the russian, they always talk with cold eyes, they have the same emotions of a dead fish, they simply dont trust anybody, I dont like it.
Yes, personal experience.... Very important and can not be just put aside...
Funny though that most of the Nordic peple I know say exactly opposite about Spaniards. You know "wide open mouth", "too pushy", "too forward", "too loud". You know, this kind of prejudice crap.

Rising Sun*
12-02-2008, 04:49 AM
Yes, personal experience.... Very important and can not be just put aside...
Funny though that most of the Nordic peple I know say exactly opposite about Spaniards. You know "wide open mouth", "too pushy", "too forward", "too loud". You know, this kind of prejudice crap.

Probably just responses to a very different culture, both the Nordic one and PK's. People who aren't like us always seem a bit strange.

When I was a kid in the 1950s and 1960s the dominant Celtic-Anglo Aussie response to the flood of southern European migrants was similar to the Nordic one to Spaniards. Too noisy, too emotional, talk with their hands, eat crap like squid, etc etc. They were just different to the monoculture that existed here then. We don't notice it now, because we've got used to them, and they to us, and each absorbed a lot of the other's characteristics, conduct, culture, and cuisine over a few generations.

Egorka
12-02-2008, 05:54 AM
Probably just responses to a very different culture, both the Nordic one and PK's. People who aren't like us always seem a bit strange.
Of course! I have the same impression of Chinese f.ex. I simply can not read their emotions. It felt strange in the beginning to realise that you can not get what you normally get when looking at some one similar to you. But with a little bit of brain activity you quickly realise that 1 billion man can not be THAT differnet in essence. Rather other way arround as there by far more Chinese than lets say Russians.
Though I am not saying that the nations are completely similar. All nations are gifted and corrupt in a unic way. Divercity, you see.