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Ingsoc
03-14-2006, 09:19 AM
The SIG was a Jewish commando unit in the British army during WW2 the uncanny thing was that they all speak fluent German, they were designate to infiltrate the German lines, all their training was in German and with German equitment.

http://www.alliedspecialforces.org/specialidentificationgroup.htm

SIG - Special Interrogation Group - (some sources interpret this acronym as Special Identification Group or Special Intelligence Group)

The Allied Special Forces History
LIONS OF JUDAH
http://www.memorialgrove.org.uk/specialidentificationgrouplionsofjudahhistory.htm

http://www.memorialgrove.org.uk/specialidentificationgrouplionsofjudahhistory1.htm

THE JEWISH COMMANDOS OF THE S.I.G.
THE RAID ON TOBRUK

http://www.memorialgrove.org.uk/specialidentificationgrouplionsofjudahhistory2.htm

http://www.memorialgrove.org.uk/specialidentificationgrouplionsofjudahhistory3.htm

SIG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.etherington/1942/06/03.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=w8lNaPldEZAC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=sig+%22special+interrogation+group%22&source=web&ots=LECfcPs1rq&sig=6Oqs-k9AWwsfx7msNyN5ueo_AKM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result

Firefly
03-14-2006, 12:39 PM
Perhaps the reason that they spoke such fluent German is that they were?

Ingsoc
03-14-2006, 03:13 PM
Perhaps the reason that they spoke such fluent German is that they were?

Of course :D when I said "uncanny" I meant uncanny that the British founded a unit of exclucivly German speakers and also the fact that they were conducting all the units activities in German.

George Eller
03-15-2006, 12:48 AM
http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/7654/palmachgermansquad9dq.jpg

From "Shield of David", by Yigal Allon, Random House, 1970, (p 125)

---

2nd of foot
03-16-2006, 11:00 AM
I am a little confused by the quote next to the picture. Should it not say “in the event of a German occupation of Palestine”.

It may be this unit or the Haganah that Wingate was involved in before or at the start of the war. I read (and can’t remember where, posibly Slim bio) that he planned to go back after the war to continue the work.

George Eller
03-16-2006, 12:28 PM
I am a little confused by the quote next to the picture. Should it not say “in the event of a German occupation of Palestine”.

It may be this unit or the Haganah that Wingate was involved in before or at the start of the war. I read (and can’t remember where, possibly Slim bio) that he planned to go back after the war to continue the work.

-

Hi "2nd of foot",

I agree, it should probably say “in the event of a German occupation of Palestine” or "for the possibility of a German occupation of Palestine”.

Orde Wingate was a cousin of T.E. Lawrence IIRC. Hence he was sometimes referred to as the "Lawrence of Judea". He loved the Jewish People and organized the "Special Night Squads" from Palestinian Jews during the 1930's. They operated against Arab marauders. If I remember correctly, Wingate said something to the effect that "The Arabs think that they own the night. We shall teach them to fear it". The British government was not pleased with his activities and transferred him away from Palestine. He went on to organize the "Chindits" in Burma during WWII. Tragically, he died in a plane crash in Burma in 1944. Had he lived, I think he would have went back to Palestine. However, his widow did return to Palestine to offer her support for the Jews during their fight to preserve the fledgling State of Israel.

-

Walther
03-18-2006, 06:27 AM
There also existed No. 3 Troop 10th Interallied Commando, also known as the "X" troop, which consisted mainly of refugees from Axis countries (mainly Germany and Austria, most of the members were Jewish).
They were trained in the usual Special Forces techniques, but also received all new intelligence information about the German forces.
There exists an excellent autobiographic account by one of the members, Peter Masters, originally Peter Aranyi from Vienna, Austria, "Striking Back".
He describes how as a teenager after the Anschluss he got tormented by the Hitler Youth, got temporarely arrsted with his father, but after release, with the help of a relative, managed to escape to Britain just before WW2 started. There he earned his living doing odd jobs until he was interned as an enemy alien in 1940. From internemt camp he volunteered for the Royal Pinoneer Corps and from there was recruited into No3 Troop 10th Interallied Commando. As all Axis citizens fighting in the British Forces he had to write a fake biography, giving himself a British identity (English name, religion usually C0E). This was done out of two reasons: First to protect the soldier in case he got captured by German troops, so that he would be treated as an ordinary POW and not shot out of hand as a traitor, and secondly to prevent the German military form knowing that there existed a special forces unit consisting of native German speakers. He reentered the European Continent on the Eastern flank of Operation Overlord and fought all the way back into Germany. During his time in the British Army he reached the rank of Seargeant.
Members of his unit were usually divided into teams of four and attached to battalion staffs to do special reconnaisance and interrogation of prisoners.

Others served e.g. in the Glider Pilot Regiment (like Sergeant Louis Hagen from Potsdam, aka Louis Haig, who fought in Arnhem. He wrote a book called "Arnhem Lift").

Most of the survivors of these units later accepted British citizenship and continued to live in Britain after the war.

Jan

aly j
10-02-2008, 11:38 AM
Jewishs are a main part of ww2, but where was the Jewish army at?
I dont have any information about the Jewish army in ww2 at all.

herman2
10-02-2008, 11:50 AM
I don't think Jews are the main part of WW-2. WW 2 had nothing to do with Jews. The holocaust is an unfortunate side effect arising from the war. The war was caused by mitigating factors bewteen Germany and England. the Jews were not a factor in what caused the war nor were of much importance in the strategic inititives of the Alied forces. However, the jewish population fighting perhaps in Poland at the time, or even in the RAF was transparent ..I quote:
Jews in Britain and other nations, have always participated in the defence of the countries wherever they have lived, and always out of proportion to their numbers in the general population.

Adrian Wainer
10-02-2008, 12:22 PM
Jewishs are a main part of ww2, but where was the Jewish army at?
I dont have any information about the Jewish army in ww2 at all.

Well usually to have an army, you have to have a country and the Jews were still at a very early stage in creating the State of Israel. Also for say American Jews or British Jews most American Jews would regard the Army of America as their Army and for most British Jews they would regard the Army of Britain as their Army. There was a Jewish Brigade in the British Army though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Brigade

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=4XCyr0Jtlvc

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Ardee
10-02-2008, 12:26 PM
Hi aly j,

I am not sure what you meant by the "Jewish army." Judaism is a religion, not a nation, and Israel did not exist until after (and perhaps, because of) WWII. IIRC, what is now Israel was a colony of the British Empire during the war; I am not sure, but it is also possible part of it might have been under French control, though I don't think so.

As herman2 said, a great many Jews fought in the national armies of whichever country they were citizens. Even Germany would except half-Jews into the ranks, with a few "ifs, ands, and buts."

P.S. - Hi Adrian, you posted while I was typing!

Adrian Wainer
10-02-2008, 12:50 PM
Hi aly j,

I am not sure what you meant by the "Jewish army." Judaism is a religion, not a nation, and Israel did not exist until after (and perhaps, because of) WWII. IIRC, what is now Israel was a colony of the British Empire during the war; I am not sure, but it is also possible part of it might have been under French control, though I don't think so.

As herman2 said, a great many Jews fought in the national armies of whichever country they were citizens. Even Germany would except half-Jews into the ranks, with a few "ifs, ands, and buts."

P.S. - Hi Adrian, you posted while I was typing!

Hi Ardee, Palestine was part of the Ottoman Turkish Empire but Turkey lost it to the British During World War 1, whilst WW2 did hasten the creation of a Jewish State and arguably made it a practical reality, there was a significant push by some Jews to create a State in Palestine well before WW1. It was the Drefyus affair that convinced many intelectual Jews of the need for the creation of a Jewish state. If my memory serves me right, if a person had one Jewish parent that was enough to qualify them for the gas chambers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

herman2
10-02-2008, 12:58 PM
Hi Aly J,...I found some statistics on a google search that I found impressive..............
....During WWII, 550,000 American Jews served in her armies; 8,000 Jews paid the ultimate price for America's freedom.
........From my own awareness, although the Jews, like the blacks, made an impression in the War, they were unfortunately discriminated against, even by giving their life to fight for their country...for example, a Jew could not go to certain beachs or join certain golf clubs or even University, in Toronto, but he could offer to fight for his country and die, if need be...what a hypocrisy I say...

Adrian Wainer
10-02-2008, 01:17 PM
Hi Aly J,...I found some statistics on a google search that I found impressive..............
....During WWII, 550,000 American Jews served in her armies; 8,000 Jews paid the ultimate price for America's freedom.
........From my own awareness, although the Jews, like the blacks, made an impression in the War, they were unfortunately discriminated against, even by giving their life to fight for their country...for example, a Jew could not go to certain beachs or join certain golf clubs or even University, in Toronto, but he could offer to fight for his country and die, if need be...what a hypocrisy I say...

In fairness though, in the 1930s and even the 1940s like it was the done thing in most countries to discriminate against people, and basically anybody in the USA who was not a Western Ango Saxon Protestant got discrimated against and even if you were a WASP you didn't get treated well unless you were middle class or above.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Ardee
10-02-2008, 02:21 PM
Hi aly j,


If my memory serves me right, if a person had one Jewish parent that was enough to qualify them for the gas chambers.

I'm sure it could, and did in many cases. But I believe there are many instances of "Jewish" Germans serving in the German Armed Forces during the Nazi era, when exceptions ("ifs, ands, and buts") were made for various reasons. An example is given in the photo section of this very web-site:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/german/Borchardt_+Robert_Major.html

While the individual discussed in the link did have such a situation, I believe I read once of a 1/4 Jew who entered the army because that was suppose to prevent "action" against one or both of his parents.

Regarding your comments about the Ottoman Empire, Palestine, etc., you are quite correct: but the Ottoman Empire was gone by the time we were discussing, and I believe there has been a Jewish faction/movement to return to the Holy Land for Centuries, not just since Dreyfus. It's been a few years since I've read it, but I believe the book A Peace to End All Peace deals well with the subject, for anyone else who might be interested.

flamethrowerguy
10-02-2008, 02:24 PM
Actually a lot of (partially) jewish germans served in the Wehrmacht. A striking example would be Knight's Cross recipient Major Robert Borchardt:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/german/Borchardt_+Robert_Major.html

In conjunction with soldiers of jewish origin in the Luftwaffe here's a quote by Hermann Göring: "It's me who decides who's jewish and who's not!"

herman2
10-02-2008, 03:30 PM
That Hermann Göring was one obnoxious guy!...
.

hi8ha
10-02-2008, 06:09 PM
Quote- There was a Jewish Brigade in the British Army though. -

There was also Lehi (Stern Gang) who volunteered their collaboration in helping the Nazis force the British out of Palestine. Needless to say, there was a price; with the British out of Palestine, the Nazi regime will recognize Palestine as a Jewish state.

Walther
10-02-2008, 06:39 PM
Well usually to have an army, you have to have a country and the Jews were still at a very early stage in creating the State of Israel. Also for say American Jews or British Jews most American Jews would regard the Army of America as their Army and for most British Jews they would regard the Army of Britain as their Army. There was a Jewish Brigade in the British Army though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Brigade

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=4XCyr0Jtlvc

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Many, not only Jewish, but they were the great majority, refugees from Axis countries or countries occupied by the Axis powers served in the British military.
A special forces unit, No.3 (X) Troop, 10th Interallied Commando, was made up out of refugees from mostly Germany and Austria. A large number of them were Jewish. They were used for reconnaisance tasks behind enemy lines and for interrogating prisoners (as they all spoke fluent German). They were all trained on the latest German equipment and collected intelligence as well. All refugees from Axis countries (not just in the Commandoes, but also refugees serving in other units) had to pick a new identity, a new English-sounding name and a fake CV, which was then used for their documentation, like ID cards and paybooks. The high command in the UK obviously knew the real names, but they were kept secret.
There existed several reasons for this:
1) The existence of a SF unit, with the personnel speaking fluent and accentfree German was secret.
2) To protect the soldier in case of capture by the Germans, to insure that they would be treated as normal POWs and not be sent to a concentration camp.
3) To protect family members still in Germany from reprisals by the Nazis.

I know of three people of German /Austrian heritage, who served in the British forces.
One was killed as a paratrooper in Arnhem, another one, Louis Hagen, was a sergeant with the glider pilot regiment and also fought in Arnhem. He managed to escape and later wrote and interesting book "Arnhem Lift".
The last one, Peter Masters, fought with No.3 Troop, 10th Interallied Commandos during the Normandy Invasion as well as later in the Low Countries and Northern Germany. He also wrote a book: "Fighting Back".
Recent research by a British university has actually given numbers as high as 10.000 German/Austrian soldiers fighting with the British. This doesn't even include Italians, Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians, who similarly signed up while living as refugees in the UK.
I have also heard stories about female German refugees flying on special converted Lancaster bombers of the RAF during bomb raids, simulating the radio traffic of the German night fighter command (who used female ground controllers at the rader sets to guide the fighters to the bomber streams) to confuse German night fighter operations.

Jan

aly j
10-02-2008, 09:31 PM
Hi aly j,

I am not sure what you meant by the "Jewish army." Judaism is a religion, not a nation, and Israel did not exist until after (and perhaps, because of) WWII. IIRC, what is now Israel was a colony of the British Empire during the war; I am not sure, but it is also possible part of it might have been under French control, though I don't think so.

As herman2 said, a great many Jews fought in the national armies of whichever country they were citizens. Even Germany would except half-Jews into the ranks, with a few "ifs, ands, and buts."

P.S. - Hi Adrian, you posted while I was typing!

I couldet remember how to spell Isreal so i took the easy way out.I knew hoew to spell jewish.:)

aly j
10-02-2008, 09:34 PM
I don't think Jews are the main part of WW-2. WW 2 had nothing to do with Jews. The holocaust is an unfortunate side effect arising from the war. The war was caused by mitigating factors bewteen Germany and England. the Jews were not a factor in what caused the war nor were of much importance in the strategic inititives of the Alied forces. However, the jewish population fighting perhaps in Poland at the time, or even in the RAF was transparent ..I quote:
Jews in Britain and other nations, have always participated in the defence of the countries wherever they have lived, and always out of proportion to their numbers in the general population.
Herman 2 thats cruel,Too Hitler they where a big deal and Hitler started the war.So wouldet that make them a main bit of ww2.
I think Jews should be remembed for what they went though in ww2 nearly being wipe out. Cheers

Adrian Wainer
10-03-2008, 05:21 AM
Quote- There was a Jewish Brigade in the British Army though. -

There was also Lehi (Stern Gang) who volunteered their collaboration in helping the Nazis force the British out of Palestine. Needless to say, there was a price; with the British out of Palestine, the Nazi regime will recognize Palestine as a Jewish state.

You wouldn't have some evidence of this assertion that you could share with us.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer
10-03-2008, 06:15 AM
Hi aly j,



I'm sure it could, and did in many cases. But I believe there are many instances of "Jewish" Germans serving in the German Armed Forces during the Nazi era, when exceptions ("ifs, ands, and buts") were made for various reasons. An example is given in the photo section of this very web-site:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/german/Borchardt_+Robert_Major.html

While the individual discussed in the link did have such a situation, I believe I read once of a 1/4 Jew who entered the army because that was suppose to prevent "action" against one or both of his parents.

Regarding your comments about the Ottoman Empire, Palestine, etc., you are quite correct: but the Ottoman Empire was gone by the time we were discussing, and I believe there has been a Jewish faction/movement to return to the Holy Land for Centuries, not just since Dreyfus. It's been a few years since I've read it, but I believe the book A Peace to End All Peace deals well with the subject, for anyone else who might be interested.

Yes for sure, prior to WW2 during WW2 and for some time after WW2 Palestine was a British territory, I only mentioned the Ottoman Empire as a historical fact, furthermore it is important to understand how the State of Israel is run, in that part of the legislative code is inherited from the Ottoman Empire. For sure, there was an aspiration on the part of the Jewish people, to re-establish a State in the Holyland ever since their dispersition at the the hands of the Roman Empire. That said, it was only the emergence of European nationalism allied to the inherent problems that the Jewish people living as minority communities in the Christian West, highlighted by the Drefyus affair, which provided a conceptual practical methodology ie copying European Nationalism and being warned by the Drefyus affair of the dangers facing Jewish communities, that made the creation of a Jewish State both a wanted goal and an achievable goal. Furthermore, it is important to understand these issues in that, a frequently used argument is that Jews in Muslim lands did not suffer in the way that Jews in Christian states did and whilst it is true, that comparatively Jews in Muslims lands were in a better position to Jews in many Christian lands until relatively recently, one must understand that this is due to the fact that the Arabs were colonizers part excellence in that whilst they lacked many resources within Arab culture and society itself, they did make excellent use of those they found within conquered and subservient peoples, therefore they would have treated the Jews as a literate people with skills in medicine, banking, administration etc as an important resource, furthermore since the Jews had no country which they might form an alliance with since there was no Jewish State, this would have been regarded as making the Jews more dependable than christians within the Muslim lands, who might seek support from an outside Christian State. Why particularly I have gone to the trouble of explaining the once relatively good position of the Jews in Muslim lands, is that this fact is often used by apologists for Muslim fanaticism to suggest that such problems only exist today because of the legacy of European colonialism, the existance of the State of Israel, American foreign policy, etc, there are three big problems with this apologia which the majority of suits pretending to be journalists are either unable or unwilling to raise in response; one is that the Ottoman Empire which was the principle Muslim power of the modern era was actually at War with the Wahabis who had no religious tolerance at all and still don't and "Islamists" today are not out to re-establish the Ottoman Empire but a Wahabi Empire; two Within the Ottoman Empire there was no such thing as democracy, and Islam was the State religion and whilst non-Muslim communties did have rights they had no such thing as e.g. the right to self determination and constitutional nationalism, so that even taking the more benign Ottoman example rather than the extreme Wahabi one, if one applies this to say to Britain or France, what this means is that France or Britain should exist as part of a Muslim Empire, in which Britain and France are run by Muslims as colonial territories with the non-Muslim population assuming the position of protected peoples; three the Ottoman Turks did not decide that they were going to be nice to the Europeans and not extend their Empire to London, Paris and Madrid they suffered military defeats to their expansionist policies, hence even taking the more benign Ottoman example rather than the Wahabist one, they were expansionist and it was European military capabilities which held the Ottoman Empire in check.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Rising Sun*
10-03-2008, 06:58 AM
You wouldn't have some evidence of this assertion that you could share with us.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

There's nothing new in hi8ha's statement.

Fascist sympathies in the complexities of Zionist politics is no more remarkable than cooperation by certain Zionist elements in Germany with the Nazis.

Israel's Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir came from the Stern Gang, as did other prominent Israeli polticians and military leaders.


Given such facts, it is only natural that while the more credulous Israelis at least for the time being tend to follow Shamir blindly, the critically minded search for an explanation of Shamir's current behavior in his past. The most formative years of his life (he confirms this himself) were those he spent in the Jewish underground in Palestine, especially in the LEHI organization (the Stern Gang), where he rose from a junior member to the rank of one of its three top commanders. His loyalty to the ideological principles of LEHI can be observed to this very day. He continues to attend the yearly ceremonial assemblies of its veterans. This is why the ideological principles of LEHI deserve to be retrieved from historical memory. But not only the ideological principles. Their actions must also be reexamined, such as their ideologically motivated offer of an alliance to Nazi Germany, or Shamir's assassination of his friend Eliyahu Gil'adi, owing to which he rapidly rose in LEHI's ranks. Gil'adi's assassination is currently much discussed in the Hebrew press, on the basis of both long known and newly discovered sources.

.....

LEHI showed its uniqueness in its very earliest political strategy, namely in its persistent search for an alliance with Nazi Germany throughout 1940 -- 41. Unlike all other Jewish groups of that time, the LEHI men respected Hitler. Later, the veterans of LEHI tried for a long time to deny that they had ever made alliance overtures to the Nazis. Unfortunately for them, documents proving the contrary were found by Israeli scholars and journalists and published long ago. The search for that alliance and its implications are best described in the above-mentioned book by Heller. He shows that the drafting of the Principles of Renaissance took place at the same time, and he argues that LEHI's pro-Nazism was by no means unrelated to the contents of this document. http://www.mepc.org/journal_shahak/shahak39.asp

redcoat
10-03-2008, 07:00 AM
The 'Jews' that served in the German army in WW2 would not be classed as Jews today. They were mostly people who either had a Jewish grandparent, or a single Jewish parent, and didn't practice the Jewish faith themselves.

Anyone who was officially registered with the German authorities as Jewish could not serve in the German armed forces, as the Nazis had made them 'non-citizens'

Rising Sun*
10-03-2008, 07:35 AM
The 'Jews' that served in the German army in WW2 would not be classed as Jews today. They were mostly people who either had a Jewish grandparent, or a single Jewish parent, and didn't practice the Jewish faith themselves.

Anyone who was officially registered with the German authorities as Jewish could not serve in the German armed forces, as the Nazis had made them 'non-citizens'

For those unfamiliar with it, here's a couple of brilliant pieces of legislative drafting by the Nazis to decide who was and wasn't Jewish and what their rights were and weren't.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/nurmlaw3.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/nurmlaw4.html

Article 2.2 of the First Regulation of the Reich Citzenship Law (second link), like much of the rest of these laws, is laughable from a legal drafting and interpretation viewpoint.

For example "from one or two grandparents". Clearly, if one is enough, two is redundant and just introduces room for debate. :rolleyes:

Further, "One grandparent shall be considered as full-blooded if he or she belonged to the Jewish religious community.". The sentence before that says nothing about "full-blooded" (maybe something was lost in translation) while the determining factor of belonging to "the Jewish religious community", whatever that may mean, has no bearing on helping to decide who is "racially Jewish" as specified in the previous sentence. A race and a religion are very different things.

Still, those who wrote and those who applied the law weren't worried about legal niceties, nor were the judges wearing Nazi badges who interpreted those laws, because everyone involved in the legal charade knew what it was really all about. And rights under the law weren't any part of it, which is hardly surprising as these were laws concerned with removing citizenship and what we now call human rights from people who might or might not qualify as Jews, depending upon who in power was targeting or protecting them.

I know a non-Jewish bloke of German origin who grew up in Berlin during WWII, mid teens at the end of the war, whose family and others in the area were treated by a Jewish doctor to the end of the war. As far as anyone knew, the doctor had no special claim to protection, yet he survived past the Allied victory without any harassment from the Nazis in the preceding dozen years. The reality on the ground might not always have been as we understand it from those who present the Holocaust as applying universally to Jews in Germany.

hi8ha
10-03-2008, 07:43 AM
Adrian, think Rising Sun answered your question.
Check this also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

The Nazis never responded to their offer, and the affiliation never took place for obvious reasons, I presume.
Lehi and other similar groups used terrorist tactics against the British making them terrorist and later on against the Palestinians groups as well. But that would be a very touchy subject

Adrian Wainer
10-03-2008, 08:14 AM
Adrian, think Rising Sun answered your question.
Check this also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

The Nazis never responded to their offer, and the affiliation never took place for obvious reasons, I presume.
Lehi and other similar groups used terrorist tactics against the British making them terrorist and later on against the Palestinians groups as well. But that would be a very touchy subject

your link is missing part of it's script, so it will not work, so I have taken the liberty of repeating it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

hi8ha
10-03-2008, 09:51 AM
Thanks Adrian.

Ardee
10-03-2008, 12:35 PM
EEP! I just saw an embarrassing typo in my quoted comment to aly j above, one which might have caused some confusion:

Even Germany would except half-Jews into the ranks, with a few "ifs, ands, and buts."

Should have read : Even Germany would ACCEPT half-Jews into the ranks...

redcoat
10-03-2008, 05:59 PM
I know a non-Jewish bloke of German origin who grew up in Berlin during WWII, mid teens at the end of the war, whose family and others in the area were treated by a Jewish doctor to the end of the war. As far as anyone knew, the doctor had no special claim to protection, yet he survived past the Allied victory without any harassment from the Nazis in the preceding dozen years.

Its possible the doctor was married to a non-Jewish person., because the only known successful protest against the anti-Jewish program, was when the Nazis took the Jewish partners of German mixed marriage couples into custody, the non-Jewish partners staged a very public protest against this act, which forced the Nazis to release the Jewish partners, and surprisingly they left the German mixed marriage Jews in Germany alone after this.( they were still persecuted, but none were sent to the death camps before the end of the war)

aly j
10-03-2008, 10:51 PM
Well usually to have an army, you have to have a country and the Jews were still at a very early stage in creating the State of Israel. Also for say American Jews or British Jews most American Jews would regard the Army of America as their Army and for most British Jews they would regard the Army of Britain as their Army. There was a Jewish Brigade in the British Army though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Brigade

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=4XCyr0Jtlvc

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Nice footage you got there.reminds me of History Channel, i know its not from there, just saying.I thought Isreal was an old country,boy i was wrong.

George Eller
10-04-2008, 12:21 AM
-

Hitler's Jewish Soldiers
by Bryan Mark Rigg, PhD.

http://www.bryanrigg.com/hitlers_jewish_soldiers.htm

http://www.bryanrigg.com/images/HJSCover.jpg

Bryan's book, Hitler’s Jewish Soldiers: The Untold Story of Nazi Racial Laws
and Men of Jewish Descent in the German Military won the prestigious Colby Award
from the William E. Colby Military Writers Symposium.

Dr. Rigg's work has been featured in the New York Times and on programs including
NBC Dateline and Fox News. Rigg has served as a volunteer in the Israeli Army
and as an officer in the U.S. Marine Corps. He currently lives in Dallas, Texas.

At Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent-Military/dp/0700613587/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223100319&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=hitler%27s+jewish+soldiers&x=11&y=16

-

About Bryan
Bryan Mark Rigg, PhD.
http://www.bryanrigg.com/aboutme.htm

http://www.bryanrigg.com/images/rigghead.jpg

Bryan Mark Rigg teaches history at American Military University and
Southern Methodist University. Dr. Rigg's work has been featured
in the New York Times and on programs including NBC Dateline and Fox News.
Dr. Rigg has served as a volunteer in the Israeli Army and
as an officer in the U.S. Marine Corps. He currently lives in Dallas, Texas.

-

Pictures from Bryan's book, Hitler’s Jewish Soldiers:
The Untold Story of Nazi Racial Laws and Men of Jewish Descent in the German Military

http://www.bryanrigg.com/jewish_soldiers_pics.htm

http://www.bryanrigg.com/images/righitgoldberg.jpg
This photo of "half-Jew" Werner Goldberg, who was blond and blue-eyed,
was used by a Nazi propaganda newspaper for its title page.
Its caption: "The Ideal German Soldier."

More photos on above webpage - click link above.

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Rescued From the Reich
by Bryan Mark Rigg, PhD.

http://www.bryanrigg.com/rescued_from_the_reich.htm

http://www.bryanrigg.com/press_commentary.htm

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Stories of Hitler's Jewish Soldiers
by Bryan Mark Rigg, PhD.

http://www.bryanrigg.com/stories_of_hitlers_jewish_soldiers.htm

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Press & Commentary
http://www.bryanrigg.com/press_commentary.htm

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Favorite Sites
of Bryan Mark Rigg, PhD.

http://www.bryanrigg.com/favorite.htm

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Feedback
to Bryan Mark Rigg, PhD.

http://www.bryanrigg.com/feedback.htm

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Home Page
http://www.bryanrigg.com/

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Hitler's Jewish Soldiers (2006)
Documentary on DVD
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Larry-Price/dp/B000V6LSQI/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1223100434&sr=8-2

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George Eller
10-04-2008, 01:00 AM
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Moderator's Note:

I copied a related thread from the archives into this thread. The posts appear on page 1 of this thread under the heading "SIG".

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SIG - Special Interrogation Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Interrogation_Group

"The Special Interrogation Group (SIG) (some sources interpret this acronym as "Special Identification Group" or "Special Intelligence Group") was a British Army unit organized from German-speaking Jewish volunteers from the British Mandate of Palestine. The SIG performed commando and sabotage operations against Axis forces in the Western Desert Campaign during World War II."

(Article continues)

Another Churchill initiative was his Special Intelligence Group (SIG), consisting of German-Jewish refugees in England ...

http://www.jewishtribune.ca/tribune/jt-041028-11.html


Operation Agreement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Agreement

"During World War II, Operation Agreement consisted of ground and amphibious attacks by British, Rhodesian and New Zealand forces and SIG on German and Italian-held Tobruk (Operation Daffodil), Benghazi (Operation Snowdrop), Jalo oasis (Operation Tulip) and Barce (Operation Hyacinth) launched on 13 September 1942. The assault on Tobruk failed badly; the British lost three ships and several hundred soldiers and Marines."

(Article continues)


Tobruk (film)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobruk_(1967_movie)

"Tobruk is a 1967 war film set in North Africa during the Western Desert Campaign of the North African Campaign of the Second World War. It is a fictionalized story of Operation Agreement, and tells of 83 men, members of the British Army’s Long Range Desert Group (LRDG) and the Special Identification Group (SIG), who embark on a mission to destroy the fuel bunkers of Erwin Rommel’s Panzer Army Africa in Tobruk.

The film was written by Leo Gordon, and directed by Arthur Hiller. This 1967 production contains many spectacular action sequences, stunts and explosions. It is typical of the World War II fictional blockbuster action movies popular in the 1960s, such as The Dirty Dozen, Where Eagles Dare and The Guns of Navarone."

(Article continues)

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Jewish Brigade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Brigade

"The Jewish Infantry Brigade Group was a military formation of the British Army that served in Europe during the Second World War. Although the brigade was formed in 1944, some of its experienced personnel had been employed against the Axis powers in Greece, the Middle East and East Africa. More than 30,000 Palestinian Jews volunteered to serve in the British Armed Forces, 734 of whom died during the war.

The brigade and its predecessors, the Palestine Regiment and the three infantry companies that had formed it, were composed primarily of Middle Eastern Jews. The brigade was nevertheless inclusive to all Jewish and non-Jewish soldiers so that by 1944 over 50 nationalities were represented. Many were refugees displaced from countries that had been occupied or controlled by the Axis powers in Europe and Ethiopia. Volunteers from the United Kingdom, its empire, the Commonwealth, and other "western democracies" also provided contingents."

(Article continues)

More:

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005275

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/history/modern%20history/centenary%20of%20zionism/from%20hashomer%20to%20the%20israel%20defense%20fo rces

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/brigade.html

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Jewish American Soldiers in World War II video clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9zXlwBI420

About Face: German and Austrian Jewish G.I.s in World War II
( serving in the U.S. Army in World War II ) video clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEMvyp4NnEc

Jewish American Soldiers in World War II video clip
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/jewish-american-soldiers-in-world-war-ii/787280760

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How many Jewish-American soldiers were killed or wounded in action in World War 2?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_Jewish-American_soldiers_were_killed_or_wounded_in_action _in_World_War_2

"11,000 American Jewish soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines were killed in World War II. Overall, some 300,000 Jewish soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines died serving in the armys of the United Nations in World War II; and nearly 1,500,000 Jewish servicemen served in the armies of the United Nations. Large numbers of Jewish scientists played a decisive role in developing the atom bomb, thus saving millions of American and allied lives from dying in an invasion of Japan with the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima. There were hundreds of Jewish generals and admirals in the various military's. Many played key roles as army, Corp and division commanders in the different countries militaries. (and not a few were killed in action)

General Maurice Rose commanded the US 3rd Armored Division in France, advancing 100 miles in one day with his division in 1944. (killed in 1945 on a patrol)

General Boris Chernyahovsky was a gifted Soviet army commander who fought on the Soviet Front, and was killed in action liberating the Baltic states.

Brigadier Frederick Kisch was the chief combat engineer of the British Eighth army under Montgomery in North Africa (killed in action in Tunisia)

Also note the following:

2,956 British Jewish servicemen and women killed

700+ Palestinian Jews died serving in the British Commonwealth Forces; there was a 5,000 strong Jewish infantry brigade in the British army that fought in Italy in 1945. At least 35 Israeli generals served in this unit in WW II.

200,000 Soviet Jewish servicemen were killed in the war (500,000 served in all) There were lots of Jewish officers in the Soviet military in World War II, who served with distinction. The majority were purged from the Soviet military by 1950, with a tiny minority posted to Siberia or military academys.

30,000 Polish Jews were killed in action in 1939 campaign to defend Poland during the German invasion that started World War II (with many more killed serving in the Free Polish Forces in Italy, North Africa and other fronts)

And thousands of Jewish soldiers died in the French Army in 1940, as well as in the Free Greek, Czech, Free French, Belgian, Commonwealth (i.e. Canada, New Zealand, etc.) that fought on many fronts; there were even Jewish soldiers in the British Indian army that fought in Italy, Burma, etc. (Iraqi and Bene Israel Jews)"

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Jewish partisans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_partisans

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Rising Sun*
10-04-2008, 04:55 AM
Its possible the doctor was married to a non-Jewish person., because the only known successful protest against the anti-Jewish program, was when the Nazis took the Jewish partners of German mixed marriage couples into custody, the non-Jewish partners staged a very public protest against this act, which forced the Nazis to release the Jewish partners, and surprisingly they left the German mixed marriage Jews in Germany alone after this.( they were still persecuted, but none were sent to the death camps before the end of the war)

Thanks for that.

I've never heard of that before. Do you have any more info, links or references?

Sounds a bit like something I came across years ago and haven't been able to track down more recently. In Holland the medical profession went on strike under German occupation over, I think, something to do with rounding up or mistreatment of Jews (but it could have been something else to do with the occupation) and won. Would you, or anyone else, know anything about this?

Adrian Wainer
10-04-2008, 05:26 AM
Thanks for that.

I've never heard of that before. Do you have any more info, links or references?

Sounds a bit like something I came across years ago and haven't been able to track down more recently. In Holland the medical profession went on strike under German occupation over, I think, something to do with rounding up or mistreatment of Jews (but it could have been something else to do with the occupation) and won. Would you, or anyone else, know anything about this?

Never heard about something done by doctors in Holland. The Dockers Strike is the only thing I know of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_strike

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Walther
10-04-2008, 02:23 PM
Thanks for that.

I've never heard of that before. Do you have any more info, links or references?

Sounds a bit like something I came across years ago and haven't been able to track down more recently. In Holland the medical profession went on strike under German occupation over, I think, something to do with rounding up or mistreatment of Jews (but it could have been something else to do with the occupation) and won. Would you, or anyone else, know anything about this?

Here is a Wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenstrasse_protest
It refers to other sources.
Jan

redcoat
10-04-2008, 05:24 PM
Thanks for that.

I've never heard of that before. Do you have any more info, links or references?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenstrasse_protest

http://www.rinr.fsu.edu/fallwinter97/features/hitler.html

Ardee
10-06-2008, 03:49 PM
Hello George Eller,

Please don't take this wrong, but I wish you hadn't merged the threads. To me, at least, this thread now seems to have several logic disconnects, etc, due to transitions of subjects. If possible, I would ask you unmerge them, though perhaps with links, as you did above?

For my part, I don't understand the desirability of merging threads in *most* cases. It seems likely, especially as time goes on, to lead to some gargantuan threads, where all and any specific topic(s), or aspect there of, just gets "lost in the sauce." Just because topics are related, I don't think they should necessarily be "wed." JMHO.

George Eller
10-06-2008, 11:03 PM
Hello George Eller,

Please don't take this wrong, but I wish you hadn't merged the threads. To me, at least, this thread now seems to have several logic disconnects, etc, due to transitions of subjects. If possible, I would ask you unmerge them, though perhaps with links, as you did above?

For my part, I don't understand the desirability of merging threads in *most* cases. It seems likely, especially as time goes on, to lead to some gargantuan threads, where all and any specific topic(s), or aspect there of, just gets "lost in the sauce." Just because topics are related, I don't think they should necessarily be "wed." JMHO.
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Hi Ardee,

Thanks for the suggestion, but in this case the threads are not conventionally merged. The SIG thread still exists as a separate thread in the archives. I simply copied the SIG thread here. If they were conventionally merged one of the threads would have been absorbed with a redirect from it's original location or as an option, no redirect. Anyway, most threads tend to drift and even go off topic to some degree. If they get too off topic often we will split it into a separate thread. Through the years we get plenty of duplicate topics, usually with new members that are not familiar enough with the threads that have been posted. Merging threads is a great way to save space and also keep information on specific topics consolidated where the information can be more easily located. We have plenty of "gargantuan' threads here (as well as a search tool). Often it is interesting what we can discover along the way while searching for information on a particular subject. Part of the joy of learning I guess.

Later when I have more time, I'll see what I can do to tidy this thread up.

Thanks for the feedback.

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