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Adrian Wainer
09-29-2008, 12:53 PM
I was reading a very intresting posting by a Kent about alledged collaboration been Hitler and the Devil during World War 2

see the thread
"Why Hitler lost the War"

unfortunately this was regarded [ and fairly so ] as being off topic, so I started this thread for anyone who is interested in the Devil.

A question for Kent, I understand your position on the Devil that he can only operate with limits such as God allows him to, however my impression of the Devil is that he is "a contender" ie that whilst he starts from a weaker position than God, he does a have possibility to challenge God for the dominion of mankind, so is it the case that your position would be at variance with other religious denominations on the power and capabilities of the devil?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Kent
09-29-2008, 09:43 PM
Adrian,
The devil is a loser, not a contender. The noted Puritan theologin Jonathan Edwards describes him as a "blockhead" for even thinking he can defeat God. His fate is already sealed, yet he continues to rebel strenuously against God. However, he is, for the time being, still "the ruler of this world", and as long as we are alive on this earth he poses a very real threat to us and demands our caution.


John 16:11 and concerning judgement, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

I can see this question and answer routine going on for some time. Trust me, coming up with questions, especially about the devil, is far easier than coming up with answers. So, if you are genuinely interested, I would suggest first the Bible. Not just any Bible, but a Reformed Study Bible. It would provide some answers, but I would caution you to take everything in its context (which can be succinct to vast), and not to try to read something into it that isn't there. The major things are easy to find and understand, and they are repeated, often. The minor things, are not. The Bible is its own best interpreter. Just remember, there is more wisdom in the Bible that any one man can fathom.

Also, there are many counterfit bibles (small "b"), used by cults. Don't be fooled. or waste any time reading them. They are erroneous.

Plan B would be to read books written by the men who study and teach the Bible for a living; ordained preachers. If you are interested in the world of fallen angles then, I would recommend The Invisible War by Donald Grey Barnhouse (ISBN 0-310-20481-X). Just be sure you recognize the difference between Scripture truth, and man's speculation.

Finally, a warning. Don't get too engrossed in devils, demons and the like. The more interest you have in them, the more interest they are likely to have in you. Play it safe; take what the Bible reveals, and nothing more.


Dueteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.


1 Peter 5:8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Adrian Wainer
09-30-2008, 05:25 AM
Finally, a warning. Don't get too engrossed in devils, demons and the like. The more interest you have in them, the more interest they are likely to have in you. Play it safe; take what the Bible reveals, and nothing more.

Hee, Hee good advice there, as the saying goes!

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread!

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Nickdfresh
09-30-2008, 06:14 AM
Um, Hilter had a fascination with the occult, but how did he "collaborate" with a mythic figure?

Adrian Wainer
09-30-2008, 07:35 AM
Um, Hilter had a fascination with the occult, but how did he "collaborate" with a mythic figure?

Hi Nick, I do not personally believe in the Devil but for people who do, it is a valid proposition that Hitler may have been working in co-operation with Satan, obviously if one regards Satan as merely a mythic figure, Hitler may or may not have thought himself to be in co-operation with the Devil, but even if he did, if Satan is no more than a myth it is a rather one-sided arrangement.

I know the price of central heating has gone up and people should try alternatives but this is ridiculous!

The Ninth Gate Part 12

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=OMqWQTPe6uk

The Ninth Gate Part 13

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=3NI_NAbLv5s

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

herman2
09-30-2008, 11:13 AM
Oh PLEASE!,..The devil in disguise as Hitler...I heard a lot, but this takes the Cake!...Rubbish!

Major Walter Schmidt
09-30-2008, 11:16 AM
I personaly am an athiest leaning twards Mil-24ism so I dont realy think this is exactly a rational discussion but anyhow is this the right place to argue theology?

herman2
09-30-2008, 01:09 PM
Eating a cupcake.....your so funny Walter! You kill me with your ever changing logo's!:)

Adrian Wainer
09-30-2008, 01:35 PM
Oh PLEASE!,..The devil in disguise as Hitler...I heard a lot, but this takes the Cake!...Rubbish!

I think the argument would not be be that Hitler was the Devil but that he was a mortal man acting with the assistance of evil supernatural forces.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

aly j
09-30-2008, 07:34 PM
I think the argument would not be be that Hitler was the Devil but that he was a mortal man acting with the assistance of evil supernatural forces.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer
Hitler was a normal man, with a F-cked up brain,or a Devils brain.:)

Nickdfresh
09-30-2008, 08:56 PM
Hi Nick, I do not personally believe in the Devil but for people who do, it is a valid proposition that Hitler may have been working in co-operation with Satan, obviously if one regards Satan as merely a mythic figure, Hitler may or may not have thought himself to be in co-operation with the Devil, but even if he did, if Satan is no more than a myth it is a rather one-sided arrangement.

I know the price of central heating has gone up and people should try alternatives but this is ridiculous!

The Ninth Gate Part 12

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=OMqWQTPe6uk

The Ninth Gate Part 13

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=3NI_NAbLv5s

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Maybe Hitler was cooperating with fairies and ogres too?

What's the point of such speculation. As far as Nazis and the occult, they certainly had their nuts. But, for the most part, there's little evidence of Satanism or Satanic worship by Nazi officials. Hitler himself largely rejected such things as astrology and started rounding them I think when their optimist prophesies didn't materialize...

32Bravo
10-01-2008, 06:57 AM
Milton's epic, Paradise Lost, gives quite a good take on Lucifer and his host. It begins with Lucifer and his host regaining consciousness in Hell, having just been blasted there by Christ. The war against God had raged to-and-thro until Christ came along in his chariot and decided the matter. They hate this place, Hell, but as Lucifer says: "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven!"

Lucifer and his host then debate how they should continue the war with God, but in the end, Lucifer argues that it would be pointless as Christ would defeat them with his thunderbolts once again. So, the decision they come to, which is really Lucifer's decision, is to take their revenge on God by corrupting that which God holds most dear i.e. Man.

My point, in reiterating all of this, is that many people mistakenly believe that what they have heard or read of Paradise Lost, to be true to the Bible, but it isn't, it's an epic poem. it's brilliantly written and fabuously entertaining, but it's a fairy tale.

What comments people make on the Devil or God based on knowledge which has evolved from this poem is simply make believe, and not according to the Bible.

There are many belief systems and if one chooses to follow one, then that is fair enough, but it is purely a matter of faith and there is no evidence to prove the actuality of God or the Devil. If there was, we would all be followers.

Adrian Wainer
10-01-2008, 07:07 AM
Maybe Hitler was cooperating with fairies and ogres too?

What's the point of such speculation. As far as Nazis and the occult, they certainly had their nuts. But, for the most part, there's little evidence of Satanism or Satanic worship by Nazi officials. Hitler himself largely rejected such things as astrology and started rounding them I think when their optimist prophesies didn't materialize...

I would not go as far as excluding the Nazis in general from a serious connection with the occult, but as I do not think Hitler had a serious interest in it. Whether the Devil does exist or not, I don't think actually Hitler believed that he was receiving help from the Devil or even that Hitler would have sought assistance from the Devil.

As for "fairies", wasn't SA leader Erenst Roehm in to to them?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

boxerrick41
10-01-2008, 09:02 AM
" The fool says in his heart" There is no God. " Since God is real, so is the Devil. I think a person would be an idiot to seek help from the most evil and self serving of all God's creations. The Devil is a created being, not on equal footing with God, but above us, being an angel once. He was the most beautiful angel which perverted and deluded him to think he could claim the place of the Almighty.He is not all knowing but has thousands of years of experience to fall back on to find the right bait to make each man separate himself from God, be it arrogance, pride, revenge or self delusion. He hates man and is jealous that one day we will claim our place in heaven and he is destined for Hell with however many he can drag with him, so if Hitler pinned his hopes on the Devil, he was setting himself up for a big betrayal. I know people hate to hear me preach but i feel kinship here, and i want you fellows to be able to continue your discussions in heaven so i leave you with this...
" Blessed is the man who trusteth in the Lord, and in whose hope the Lord is "
Jeremiah 17:7

Rising Sun*
10-01-2008, 10:30 AM
You all doubt the Devil's existence at your peril, for he is real and visible to men who see the evil he does.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=k7B5xqdNPvk

Kent
10-01-2008, 09:43 PM
Satan's greatest lie is that he does not exist.

Nickdfresh
10-01-2008, 10:16 PM
Satan's greatest lie is that he does not exist.


"Mock the devil, and he shall set you free."

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qTsVfZeHL4s

Nickdfresh
10-01-2008, 10:17 PM
Milton's epic, Paradise Lost, gives quite a good take on Lucifer and his host. It begins with Lucifer and his host regaining consciousness in Hell, having just been blasted there by Christ. The war against God had raged to-and-thro until Christ came along in his chariot and decided the matter. They hate this place, Hell, but as Lucifer says: "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven!"

Lucifer and his host then debate how they should continue the war with God, but in the end, Lucifer argues that it would be pointless as Christ would defeat them with his thunderbolts once again. So, the decision they come to, which is really Lucifer's decision, is to take their revenge on God by corrupting that which God holds most dear i.e. Man.

My point, in reiterating all of this, is that many people mistakenly believe that what they have heard or read of Paradise Lost, to be true to the Bible, but it isn't, it's an epic poem. it's brilliantly written and fabuously entertaining, but it's a fairy tale.

What comments people make on the Devil or God based on knowledge which has evolved from this poem is simply make believe, and not according to the Bible.

There are many belief systems and if one chooses to follow one, then that is fair enough, but it is purely a matter of faith and there is no evidence to prove the actuality of God or the Devil. If there was, we would all be followers.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=gUSSjroq5Ws

32Bravo
10-02-2008, 06:40 AM
You all doubt the Devil's existence at your peril, for he is real and visible to men who see the evil he does.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=k7B5xqdNPvk


Are you implying that PK is the Devil ? :(

32Bravo
10-02-2008, 06:47 AM
Not certain whether I'm being ovewhelmed by God-fearing or Devil-fearing types?

If one is God-fearing, is that on account of the threat tha one's immortal soul will be handed to the Devil and, if so, is the Devil doing God's work?


If one does have faith in God, shouldn't said faith be love based rather than fear based - or doesn't it matter providing one reserves a place in Paradise?

32Bravo
10-02-2008, 06:49 AM
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=gUSSjroq5Ws


Sadly, I have no audio, so, I 'm not certain whether you're preaching or taking the piss, Nick (just curious - but are you sometimes referred to as Old Nick?).

32Bravo
10-02-2008, 07:01 AM
Dave Allen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk&feature=related

Kent
10-02-2008, 07:28 AM
Galations 6:7 Do not be deceived, God* is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
*who created the devil-Kent

32Bravo
10-02-2008, 07:45 AM
I doubt that Dave Allen, or others, mock God - they mock those preachers who abuse him.

As for the Bible, did God write it or was it a group of ancient sages protecting their own interests?

I can confirm that the Devil does exist. She sits opposite me, and, today, she is wearing black stockings which rise to about an inch above the knee, stopping about two feet short of the matching black, bum-hugging hem of her skirt. I can also confirm that said Devil is not a commando, but leans to the white so as not to be considered totally impure.

If you have the faith, keep the faith, and leave the rest to decide for themselves.

boxerrick41
10-02-2008, 09:09 AM
i agree that " Paradise Lost" is a fairy tale, like hollywood movies that deal with the issue.
I , myself do not fear the devil, for i have the promise and sacrifice of Jesus to save me. I believe it is a free gift, salvation, done by God's mercy, not on any good works i have done. the point is the real saved man will not do anything to mess that up. God knows we are sinful creatures. i fear the lord, of course, but I love him for that promise, that I will see my mother and father again. is that not enough reason to love him?since i have been saved, my life has increased abundantly, i have a pretty, young wife, 2 chidren that are so beautiful I cant believe i helped make them, and the start of a little cattle farm.i thank God for these things daily,because i dont deserve it for my sins( i have killed people, for petes sake)and he forgave me that, how could i not love the Lord

32Bravo
10-02-2008, 09:26 AM
i agree that " Paradise Lost" is a fairy tale, like hollywood movies that deal with the issue.
I , myself do not fear the devil, for i have the promise and sacrifice of Jesus to save me. I believe it is a free gift, salvation, done by God's mercy, not on any good works i have done. the point is the real saved man will not do anything to mess that up. God knows we are sinful creatures. i fear the lord, of course, but I love him for that promise, that I will see my mother and father again. is that not enough reason to love him?since i have been saved, my life has increased abundantly, i have a pretty, young wife, 2 chidren that are so beautiful I cant believe i helped make them, and the start of a little cattle farm.i thank God for these things daily,because i dont deserve it for my sins( i have killed people, for petes sake)and he forgave me that, how could i not love the Lord

I have no argument with that...God bless you!

boxerrick41
10-02-2008, 09:47 AM
believe me , 32Bravo, i have seen the devil in less than that. My first job when i left the service was a bartender at a strip club. I think if i had stayed there, i would have ended up as a worse drunk than my clientele ;-P, i think it helped kill my boxing career also, you know the adage about sex before a fight( it will weaken the legs) lol

32Bravo
10-02-2008, 10:09 AM
believe me , 32Bravo, i have seen the devil in less than that. My first job when i left the service was a bartender at a strip club. I think if i had stayed there, i would have ended up as a worse drunk than my clientele ;-P, i think it helped kill my boxing career also, you know the adage about sex before a fight( it will weaken the legs) lol


I believe you.

Life is a journey, is it not? How can we appreciate what is good and beautiful without experiencing some of what is bad and ugly?

I never frequented those sleezy type places (more RS's type of thing). Generally speaking, why have sardines when one can have caviar? :)

Then again, any port in a storm! ;)

boxerrick41
10-02-2008, 10:18 AM
I believe you.

Life is a journey, is it not? How can we appreciate what is good and beautiful without experiencing some of what is bad and ugly?

I never frequented those sleezy type places (more RS's type of thing). Generally speaking, why have sardines when one can have caviar? :)

Then again, any port in a storm! ;)

Amen, brother
those days are far behind me now, im just glad i live where a man can start over and rebuild himself.If I, a lowly carpenter from a poor family, can do it, any man can

Adrian Wainer
10-02-2008, 10:18 AM
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Isiah 14:12

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=yfdh5CUSk8Q

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

tankgeezer
10-02-2008, 10:27 AM
Even the Pope has copped to the fact that there is no devil as most folks have been taught to envision the concept. also that there is no hell. Different Pope, for each, but the Vatican has finally admitted it.

32Bravo
10-02-2008, 10:30 AM
Even the Pope has copped to the fact that there is no devil as most folks have been taught to envision the concept. also that there is no hell. Different Pope, for each, but the Vatican has finally admitted it.

That's torn it...now what do I confess? :(

Adrian Wainer
10-02-2008, 10:37 AM
Even the Pope has copped to the fact that there is no devil as most folks have been taught to envision the concept. also that there is no hell. Different Pope, for each, but the Vatican has finally admitted it.

Yes, but that is presupposing that the Pope has not been enslaved by the Devil

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=VSKGT5K_N84&feature=related

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian wainer

boxerrick41
10-02-2008, 10:40 AM
i see the catholic church being duped, as there is a devil, some people think the catholic church will be the false church that deludes everyone to following the " Beast " power who comes to the fore in the final days. i hope not as i went to catholic school till high school.i think the devil only has as much power you give him over you. I believe that hell is a final death for the immortal soul. i believe that heaven will be here on earth, not some mystical place in the sky where we play harps for eternity. The Bible says the saved will be resurected in " glorified new bodies that will not age" good thing cause my old one hurts all the time ;-) as a christian man, i can not wait till that day but i know the troubles that will come before it, and im always fearful of that.one reason i like to see us different people get to talk like this. we are all the same and want good things for the ones we love. and i want good things for you all too,whether you be russian,german,or whatever. im all about love for my fellow man ( thats what prevents war, to me)

Adrian Wainer
10-02-2008, 11:23 AM
But then what if Fred Phelps is the Anti-Christ? Well if Fred Phelps is the Anti-Christ and he is against the Pope, that would prove the Pope is a good guy.

http://godhateswbc.com/index.html

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

aly j
10-02-2008, 11:27 AM
But then what if Fred Phelps is the Anti-Christ? Well if Fred Phelps is the Anti-Christ and he is against the Pope, that would prove the Pope is a good guy.

http://godhateswbc.com/index.html

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian WainerPop is a good guy but his also Boring too.

Adrian Wainer
10-02-2008, 11:51 AM
Pop is a good guy but his also Boring too.

Well not if he is going up against the Anti-Christ!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist

not sure where Ophrah stands in relation to the Anti-Christ.

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=seAPQ9WihN0

http://www.vidimus.org/images/pubimg/full/issue_11_2007_news4.jpg

Phelps musta got too much sun, he is lookin a little red in the face.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-02-2008, 12:24 PM
i see the catholic church being duped, as there is a devil, some people think the catholic church will be the false church that deludes everyone to following the " Beast " power who comes to the fore in the final days. i hope not as i went to catholic school till high school.i think the devil only has as much power you give him over you. I believe that hell is a final death for the immortal soul. i believe that heaven will be here on earth, not some mystical place in the sky where we play harps for eternity. The Bible says the saved will be resurected in " glorified new bodies that will not age" good thing cause my old one hurts all the time ;-) as a christian man, i can not wait till that day but i know the troubles that will come before it, and im always fearful of that.one reason i like to see us different people get to talk like this. we are all the same and want good things for the ones we love. and i want good things for you all too,whether you be russian,german,or whatever. im all about love for my fellow man ( thats what prevents war, to me)


I too was raised as a Catholic, but I think Vatican 2 began to turn me.

Your faith is stronger than mine. I have absolutely no certainty about the after life or if there is an after life, or even if there is a God. The only thing I am certain of is that I dislike people who think they know better (not your good self) and demonstrate this by dictating to me on the subject.

There have been times in my life, quite a few as it happens, when I have needed there to be a God, and when those times have come about, God has been there for me.

My wife is a Baptist of very strong faith. Not a 'Shouter' but a true believer. Her father was a Baptist minister who was killed early in her childhood. Her mother being of strong faith raised with good Christian values. She met me the day before I married her daughter and was initially cautious, but as time went by she grew to love me dearly, as did the rest of her family - and for that I love her and respect her faith.

I have met some wonderful people in my life. People who have seemed so good, even though evil things have been done to them, that they appear to be very holy - perhaps even saintly. If they can be so good, and forgiving, then, as far as I am concerned, if there is a God, he is not a vengeful God.

p.s. Never was that good at boxing, no finesse, but I was unbeaten in the Milling.

None of that fairy headgear in my day. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpAHByFgBG4&feature=related

D502
10-02-2008, 12:37 PM
Phelps musta got too much sun...

My thoughts exactly, someone must have a burr up his *** to propagate such a load of crap.
Is that a fact that he was debarred from the Law Society by reason of improper conduct?

boxerrick41
10-02-2008, 02:17 PM
I



I have met some wonderful people in my life. People who have seemed so good, even though evil things have been done to them, that they appear to be very holy - perhaps even saintly. If they can be so good, and forgiving, then, as far as I am concerned, if there is a God, he is not a vengeful God.

p.s. Never was that good at boxing, no finesse, but I was unbeaten in the Milling.

None of that fairy headgear in my day. :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpAHByFgBG4&feature=related

i dont mean to preach so much. im just happy that it changed me and made me want to be a better man.
i still struggle with my emotions and sometimes gripe to the Lord that
he's being unfair when some plan falls apart, but how fair have i been to him? i have broke half my promises, and come begging back for forgiveness like an unfaithful husband( which i was to my first wife) i dont do that stuff now. i drink a few beers
on the weekends but i dont think im going to hell for that. He will speak to you one day, when you least expect it, because you have a good heart, he knows, he gave it you LOL.he waited till i was 33 yrs old to call me.he
isnt vengeful, just the opposite. a stern, but loving father.

" when my mother and father has forsaken thee, i shalt take thee up"
i needed this one when my Dad passed away, indeed he has

Nickdfresh
10-02-2008, 09:31 PM
Sadly, I have no audio, so, I 'm not certain whether you're preaching or taking the piss, Nick (just curious - but are you sometimes referred to as Old Nick?).

;)

http://www.geo.uw.edu.pl/GALERIA/BEER/UK/LONDON/london008.gif

32Bravo
10-03-2008, 02:44 AM
" when my mother and father has forsaken thee, i shalt take thee up"
i needed this one when my Dad passed away, indeed he has

Glad that worked for you and I can appreciate why.

What concerns me is when people surrender all responsibility for their actions and, thus, their lives to the will of God.

32Bravo
10-03-2008, 02:45 AM
;)

http://www.geo.uw.edu.pl/GALERIA/BEER/UK/LONDON/london008.gif

Figures! :evil:

navyson
10-03-2008, 07:42 AM
http://www.geo.uw.edu.pl/GALERIA/BEER/UK/LONDON/london008.gif
Sorry to barge in, but noticed the label. I've seen this at the store but haven't tried it. Anyone know if it's any good? The label is definitely eye catching.......just like most else old Lucifer throws at us to get our attention away from the bigger picture.:)

Nickdfresh
10-03-2008, 08:28 AM
http://www.geo.uw.edu.pl/GALERIA/BEER/UK/LONDON/london008.gif
Sorry to barge in, but noticed the label. I've seen this at the store but haven't tried it. Anyone know if it's any good? The label is definitely eye catching.......just like most else old Lucifer throws at us to get our attention away from the bigger picture.:)


A long while ago, and it is very tasty!

Rising Sun*
10-03-2008, 08:50 AM
Even the Pope has copped to the fact that there is no devil as most folks have been taught to envision the concept. also that there is no hell.

He's my kind of pope.

Now, if he'll just approve shagging myself stupid like some of his predecessors did (I mean they shagged themselves stupid - if they'd approved it for me I wouldn't be typing this as I'd be shagging 05 *) and if he can explain where all the souls of the unbaptised babies previously consigned to Limbo went when the Church abolished Limbo (which it didn't actually abolish as Limbo was never actually part of Doctrine - they just taught it to us like it was :rolleyes: ), I might start to think about going back to the one true Church which predates all others in an unbroken line to Christ.

Apart from the Jews, who have a bit of a problem with Christ, which is a bit odd as he's one of theirs anyway.


* 05. Our legal alcohol limit for driving down here is .05 blood alcohol content. The cops used to give us a preliminary breath test with an inflatable bag, with the words "Blow into this, driver."

Inevitably, in a nation noted for its sensitivity toward women, this caused some of us to refer to our wives as 05s.

Being the bag we blow into when we're pissed. :D

Rising Sun*
10-03-2008, 09:00 AM
* 05. Our legal alcohol limit for driving down here is .05 blood alcohol content. The cops used to give us a preliminary breath test with an inflatable bag, with the words "Blow into this, driver."


Which on one memorable occasion, and bearing in mind that the prosecution must prove every element of the offence, resulted in a seriously pissed driver getting off because the prosecution failed to prove that the preliminary breath testing device was inflatable. Good work, that man!

Adrian Wainer
10-03-2008, 11:42 AM
Apart from the Jews, who have a bit of a problem with Christ, which is a bit odd as he's one of theirs anyway.

Well that is presupposing the guy actually existed?

http://forum.starwreck.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6680

also I can not work out exactly what you are saying about the Jews there, like e.g. one might say "Apart from the Catholics who have a bit of a problem with Martin Luther, which is a bit odd as he's one of theirs anyway."


I might start to think about going back to the one true Church which predates all others in an unbroken line to Christ.

Well that is debateable in that there is an argument that there were other christian churches which were concurrent or previous to Roman catholicism that disappeared.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-03-2008, 01:48 PM
He's my kind of pope.

Now, if he'll just approve shagging myself stupid like some of his predecessors did

Are you up to it?...if he does as you wish, he'd probably be killing you. :)




... and if he can explain where all the souls of the unbaptised babies previously consigned to Limbo went when the Church abolished Limbo (which it didn't actually abolish as Limbo was never actually part of Doctrine - they just taught it to us like it was :rolleyes: ), I might start to think about going back to the one true Church which predates all others in an unbroken line to Christ.

And what about eating meat on Friday, wasn't that a sin or was Brother wotsisname fibbing?...if it wasn't, why isn't it a sin any more?




Apart from the Jews, who have a bit of a problem with Christ, which is a bit odd as he's one of theirs anyway.


And how was Paul able to usurp the church of Peter, which was meant to be the church of Christ?...Paul never even met Christ, but he does seem to have been pretty keen on Aristotle.

32Bravo
10-03-2008, 01:56 PM
Well that is debateable in that there is an argument that there were other christian churches which were concurrent or previous to Roman catholicism that disappeared.


That's a really bizarre comment. One might as well say that there is an argument that the position of Pope pre-dates Christ...which wouldn't surprise me.

There were Christian groups which pre-date Paul, perhaps this is the basis of the argument to which you refer. Peter and Paul were at odds with each other, but it was Paul that really founded the Christian faith and Catholicism in particular. Peter was more concerned with reforming the Jewish faith inline with Christs teachings.

Adrian Wainer
10-03-2008, 02:31 PM
That's a really bizarre comment. One might as well say that there is an argument that the position of Pope pre-dates Christ...which wouldn't surprise me.

There were Christian groups which pre-date Paul, perhaps this is the basis of the argument to which you refer. Peter and Paul were at odds with each other, but it was Paul that really founded the Christian faith and Catholicism in particular. Peter was more concerned with reforming the Jewish faith inline with Christs teachings.

I was more thinking along the lines of these folks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Rising Sun*
10-03-2008, 07:02 PM
Are you up to it?...if he does as you wish, he'd probably be killing you. :)

Do I care? ;)

It's half way to my ideal death, which is shagging myself to death in a barrel of beer.

Um, I don't mean shagging myself in the sense that I'm alone (or that 05 will be present unless she wants to watch) but in the sense that I'll be shagging someone else and that that's how I'll kill myself. Or drown in the beer while I'm puffing away on the job. Either way works for me. :D


And what about eating meat on Friday, wasn't that a sin or was Brother wotsisname fibbing?...if it wasn't, why isn't it a sin any more?

It was a sin, and a mortal one as I recall, along with not going to mass on Sunday. I committed both countless times. Now they're not sins any more, or maybe the Sunday mass one is depending upon one's interpretation of the current requirement to attend if you can. I think my normal Sunday morning hangover is sufficient reason not to attend, so I should be off the hook for not attending since I was about 17. :D

But, do I go to hell for the childhood offences, and eating meat on Fridays as an adult, or did those offences get wiped when those sins were abolished?

Anyway, if God is speaking through the dago in the Vatican (okay, we've had a couple lately who weren't, but they're not the ones who made the original rules), and God's laws are immutable through time, how can they be changed?Either the pope cocked it up with the original proclamation of sin or when abolishing the sin. In the former case there's nothing to worry about. In the latter, there are going to be some mightily pissed off souls heading southwards when they thought they'd be going northwards.

aly j
10-03-2008, 07:12 PM
Sorry for butting in with youre convetion, but dont you feel this is odd.
The pope is suppose to be a good roll model, but the new pope was in the Hitler youth.

Adrian Wainer
10-04-2008, 05:16 AM
Sorry for butting in with youre convetion, but dont you feel this is odd.
The pope is suppose to be a good roll model, but the new pope was in the Hitler youth.

Well, I think it was pretty much compulsory to join the Hitler youth.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 05:46 AM
Do I care? ;)

I don't know. :confused:



It's half way to my ideal death, which is shagging myself to death in a barrel of beer.

A little sexual deviation is healthy for a relationship. ;)



Um, I don't mean shagging myself in the sense that I'm alone (or that 05 will be present unless she wants to watch) but in the sense that I'll be shagging someone else and that that's how I'll kill myself. Or drown in the beer while I'm puffing away on the job. Either way works for me. :D

Steady, lad...Steady!!!




It was a sin, and a mortal one as I recall, along with not going to mass on Sunday. I committed both countless times. Now they're not sins any more, or maybe the Sunday mass one is depending upon one's interpretation of the current requirement to attend if you can. I think my normal Sunday morning hangover is sufficient reason not to attend, so I should be off the hook for not attending since I was about 17. :D

But, do I go to hell for the childhood offences, and eating meat on Fridays as an adult, or did those offences get wiped when those sins were abolished?



Bit of a paradox. This is why I began to lose it with Vatican 2. When the rules and regs were rigid and unwavering it was okay. But once they were relaxed it opens the debate regarding all of the sins that were sins but are no longer sins and, of course, the question of Limbo etc. etc.



Anyway, if God is speaking through the dago in the Vatican (okay, we've had a couple lately who weren't, but they're not the ones who made the original rules), and God's laws are immutable through time, how can they be changed?Either the pope cocked it up with the original proclamation of sin or when abolishing the sin. In the former case there's nothing to worry about. In the latter, there are going to be some mightily pissed off souls heading southwards when they thought they'd be going northwards.

My point exactly! If the church was wrong on any of these things, why isn't it wrong on all of them?

Quite seperately, I have an empty rain barrel if you would care to use it (bring your own beer), and I'm certain BoxerRick might be able to fix you up with some old doxy from his previous life.
But I'll miss your posts! ;)

Rising Sun*
10-04-2008, 06:26 AM
My point exactly! If the church was wrong on any of these things, why isn't it wrong on all of them?


If you remember the religious instruction we little micks got, the pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.

So, if it's an ex cathedra pronouncement, he can't be wrong. I suppose this applies even if he's reversing something a previous pope said ex catherdra. :confused:

Kent
10-04-2008, 07:46 AM
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Rising Sun*
10-04-2008, 08:40 AM
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.

If Christ is the only mediator between man and God, then Chrisitian churches and religions are a waste of space and time as they cannot mediate between God and man.

But, as with so much in the Bible, pulling a few lines of text out of context to prove a point is often undermined when the full context is presented, even without introducing external arguments. The relevant passage, in what Christians believe to be Paul's letter to Timothy, is;


For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not; ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Isn't it a bit absurd for Paul to assert that Christ is the only mediator between man and God, and then go on to claim to be a preacher ordained by God who, inevitably, interposes himself between man, Christ and God?

boxerrick41
10-04-2008, 08:51 AM
Well that is presupposing the guy actually existed?

[url]

Thewre is historical proof in Jesus existance.The Jewish historian Josephus Flavius wrote " And the tribe of christians grows stronger every day,
much because of their leader Christos ( as christ was called by romans)
who , if he can be called a man, because of the many miracles and spectacles he performed." this is in Roman history, not the bible.

Rising Sun*
10-04-2008, 09:44 AM
Thewre is historical proof in Jesus existance.The Jewish historian Josephus Flavius wrote " And the tribe of christians grows stronger every day,
much because of their leader Christos ( as christ was called by romans)
who , if he can be called a man, because of the many miracles and spectacles he performed." this is in Roman history, not the bible.

I'm not a Christian in any conventional or even an unconventional sense, and am generally opposed to organised religion, but I think that when one removes the organised religion element subsequently superimposed on Christ's teachings they're as good a set of rules as will ever be devised for sound personal and community living. Not that he had the exclusive franchise on what is just common sense for rational people who treat each other respectfully as equals.

Despite my hostility to organised Christian (and all other) religions, as for denying or even questioning Christ's existence, that is as baseless as denying the existence of Nero and his persecution of the Christians, Julius Caesar, Pontius Pilate, the first Roman-Jewish War and Masada, the Roman invasion of Britain, the Catacombs, the various martyrdoms in the Colosseum and other Roman amphitheatres, Domitian's Second Persecution of the Christians, and so on. Christ's existence and that of his early followers is amply documented independently of religious texts, which might be about the only aspect of Christianity's major texts that is.

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 10:44 AM
If you remember the religious instruction we little micks got, the pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra.

So, if it's an ex cathedra pronouncement, he can't be wrong. I suppose this applies even if he's reversing something a previous pope said ex catherdra. :confused:


You are quite right. We cannot understand these mysteries as humans, but all will become clear when we die and meet the God. :cool:

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 10:50 AM
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.


Kent, what are you saying?

Are you quoting from some scripture with an anonymous author?

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 10:53 AM
I was more thinking along the lines of these folks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer


Superstition was rife in the ancient world. How else could community leaders explain the unknown?

Virgins seduced and impregnated by Gods and producing Demigods was quite a common occurrence among the ancient Greeks...try Homer (not the Simpson).

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 10:54 AM
Sorry for butting in with youre convetion, but dont you feel this is odd.
The pope is suppose to be a good roll model, but the new pope was in the Hitler youth.

Butt in as much as you wish. ;)

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 10:58 AM
If Christ is the only mediator between man and God, then Chrisitian churches and religions are a waste of space and time as they cannot mediate between God and man.

yes, and looking back, what about Abraham(the idol maker), Moses, The Baptist and all of the other prophets/profits?




Isn't it a bit absurd for Paul to assert that Christ is the only mediator between man and God, and then go on to claim to be a preacher ordained by God who, inevitably, interposes himself between man, Christ and God?

A man who had a destiny.

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 11:00 AM
Thewre is historical proof in Jesus existance.The Jewish historian Josephus Flavius wrote " And the tribe of christians grows stronger every day,
much because of their leader Christos ( as christ was called by romans)
who , if he can be called a man, because of the many miracles and spectacles he performed." this is in Roman history, not the bible.


Historical effect - that is how we know that Christ existed. However, that does not prove that Christ was the son of God.

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 11:08 AM
I'm not a Christian in any conventional or even an unconventional sense, and am generally opposed to organised religion, but I think that when one removes the organised religion element subsequently superimposed on Christ's teachings they're as good a set of rules as will ever be devised for sound personal and community living. Not that he had the exclusive franchise on what is just common sense for rational people who treat each other respectfully as equals.



And that, in ancient times, was the purpose of religeon in most societies.

Ever read the Foundation Trilogy by Asimov?

An excellent work of science fiction which tackles the social evolution of communities in a rather interesting way.

http://home10.inet.tele.dk/terra/foundation_trilogy.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_(novel) excellent

Adrian Wainer
10-04-2008, 11:09 AM
Virgins seduced and impregnated by Gods and producing Demigods was quite a common occurrence among the ancient Greeks...try Homer (not the Simpson).

http://www.newprophecy.net/Europa_on_bull_2.jpg

http://bp0.blogger.com/_5UOZn4oDK2I/Rrmd6IiNJGI/AAAAAAAAAA0/FFnZU-a8xcs/s320/Beware+of+the+Bull.gif

LOL Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 11:18 AM
http://www.newprophecy.net/Europa_on_bull_2.jpg

http://bp0.blogger.com/_5UOZn4oDK2I/Rrmd6IiNJGI/AAAAAAAAAA0/FFnZU-a8xcs/s320/Beware+of+the+Bull.gif

LOL Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Like it. Zeus in the guise of a bull.

On the night before Amphitryon arrived in Thebes, Zeus (always on the lookout for occasions like this) disguised himself as Amphitryon and came to Alkmene's bedroom. "I've returned victorious," he said, and showed her some Taphian weapons and a Taphian gold cup. They then went to bed together and Zeus enjoyed the night so much he extended it to three times its normal length (the night, that is - not his thingie). As a result of this extraordinary length of time, Herakles, the greatest of all heroes, was conceived.

No bullshit!

Adrian Wainer
10-04-2008, 11:42 AM
Thewre is historical proof in Jesus existance.The Jewish historian Josephus Flavius wrote " And the tribe of christians grows stronger every day,
much because of their leader Christos ( as christ was called by romans)
who , if he can be called a man, because of the many miracles and spectacles he performed." this is in Roman history, not the bible.

That's a good point and well made
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Testimonium_Flavianum

One thing I didn't like about that film "The God Who Wasn't There" is that the director poses an interesting question ie whether Jesus actually existed or not and then goes of in a whole load of other directions and basically forgot about this more interesting issue. From my own perspective, I don't have a problem with the idea of Mary being a Virgin and giving birth to a child, in that if one was to accept the idea of a God who can perform supernatural acts, there is no reason that he can not cause a Virgin to give birth to a child. The problem which I have with the new testament in relation to Jesus, which is not for me an issue of whether Jesus existed or not but an issue of the accuracy of the Gospels is the depiction of the actions of Pontious Pilate, in this charactor acts towards Jesus in a manner which makes no sense whatsoever in relation to the known historical figure of Pilate.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

boxerrick41
10-04-2008, 01:03 PM
i love you guys. i have never saw the movie mentioned .i learned of Josephus' writings through some books i have. One " The scientific search for Christ" was what elvis presley was reading when he died.In reference to Pilate, i think God's direct intervention
by an angel telling Pilates' wife in a dream for him to have no part in judging on Jesus death. This was to ensure prophecy that jesus would be put to death by his own people.
in regards to prophecy in general, heres a example of how God works. 3 different prophets predicted his place of origin.#1 said he would be born in bethlehem,#2 said" he shall be called a nazarene". #3 predicted" out of egypt, i shall call my son" people said someone has to be wrong! well jesus was born in bethlehem, hid in egypt by his parents till safe, when joseph was called to bring him out. and he was raised in nazareth, thereby he was a nazarene.the lord indeed works in mysterious ways.I think the roman gods and other legends, such as beowulf, came about when the fallen angels communed with human women, "and gave birth to mighty men,men of reknown"
but the flood removed that generation of evil supermen, leaving us, the descendants of
Noah and his family, so we are all family anyway you look at it

God bless ye, my brethren
Rick

boxerrick41
10-04-2008, 01:10 PM
and i do know some " ladies" who could make Rising Sun's wish come true, he would
definately die smiling

Adrian Wainer
10-04-2008, 01:23 PM
Meanwhile as regards Satan


It is a proven fact that Satan Yazeed Bin Mawiya had charged his troops on Hazrat Hussain (radi Allahu anho) and martyred him. But the Wahabi sect considers Yazeed its Ameer. So the question arises, what will be the status of the nation whose Ameer is Yazeed? So on Doom's Day (Qiyamat) the Wahabi sect will be lifted from amongst the Satan Yazeedi group. Now you can understand who Wahabis are.

Dr.Haq Khan Muslimwi Islamwi

http://interact.sunnirazvi.org/forum/read.php?12,566,640

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=wex2qvL-sQ8
Like what is this guy saying here, that worshiping Satan is one of the four paths of Islam?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 02:09 PM
and i do know some " ladies" who could make Rising Sun's wish come true, he would
definately die smiling

No he wouldn't, he would simply die... the miserable old git! :)

boxerrick41
10-04-2008, 02:16 PM
LOL, 32 Bravo,
we have our annual festival this week. thats usually when i run into
a couple old "co-workers" I dont know if I dread it as much as look forward to it.
My wife has better eyes than me, she spots them before I do, lets me know i surely will NOT die smiling if I let them get too friendly

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 02:21 PM
That's a good point and well made
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Testimonium_Flavianum

Never heard of the film, but films are films.

One thing I didn't like about that film "The God Who Wasn't There" is that the director poses an interesting question ie whether Jesus actually existed or not and then goes of in a whole load of other directions and basically forgot about this more interesting issue. From my own perspective, I don't have a problem with the idea of Mary being a Virgin and giving birth to a child, in that if one was to accept the idea of a God who can perform supernatural acts, there is no reason that he can not cause a Virgin to give birth to a child. The problem which I have with the new testament in relation to Jesus, which is not for me an issue of whether Jesus existed or not but an issue of the accuracy of the Gospels is the depiction of the actions of Pontious Pilate, in this charactor acts towards Jesus in a manner which makes no sense whatsoever in relation to the known historical figure of Pilate.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Never heard of the film, but films are films.


Josephus is not proof of the existence of Christ, he came along too late. He spoke of Christianity, and by his time Peter and Paul had established the Christian church, however much it was in its infancy by todays standards.

There are no contemporary writings of Christ outside the Gospels. Furthermore, the Romans were prolific writers and it is odd that they did not record him.

However, he (Josephus) is a witness to the 'historical effect' of Christ and speaks of the existence of Christ with conviction.

How come none of you chaps have mentioned the Dead Sea Scrolls?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 02:26 PM
Meanwhile as regards Satan



http://interact.sunnirazvi.org/forum/read.php?12,566,640


Like what is this guy saying here, that worshiping Satan is one of the four paths of Islam?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

There are very devout Muslims who are gentle, kind and compassionate to their fellow men. Those that would relate Islam to Satanism serve only to demonise Islam, and that is not a Christian act.

32Bravo
10-04-2008, 03:09 PM
No he wouldn't, he would simply die... the miserable old git! :)


By the way. Old Git, is derived from Genesis. Begot/beget (Bastard) etc. In Manchester, where I was begotten, beget is shortened to 'get. Which means that if one is referred to as a 'Get' then one is being named a Bastard. In the south of England, Get becomes Git, on account of regional accents.

Anyway, no one on this site can be in any doubt that the most prolific user of the term Bastard, is RS. Which, leads me to conclude that he must have written Genesis with all of those 'begots' and 'begets'. Furthermore, having written Genesis, he is not just a Git, but he must be an Old Git! ;)

Adrian Wainer
10-04-2008, 04:07 PM
There are very devout Muslims who are gentle, kind and compassionate to their fellow men. Those that would relate Islam to Satanism serve only to demonise Islam, and that is not a Christian act.



Meanwhile as regards Satan



http://interact.sunnirazvi.org/forum/read.php?12,566,640

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=wex2qvL-sQ8
Like what is this guy saying here, that worshiping Satan is one of the four paths of Islam?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer



Yes of course there are very devout Muslims who are gentle, kind and compassionate to their fellow men and Wahabis spend a lot of time persecuting these Muslims, the Gentleman in question i.e. in the Video was talking about Wahabis.


The governor and qadi of al-Uyayna, Uthman ibn Muammar, was initially sympathetic to Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab's preaching,. To cement his links with the oasis and prevent another Hurailima-like scandal from happening here, Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab married Uthman's paternal aunt, al-Jauhara. This was the first in a series of political marriages he would make to seal whatever tenuous alliances could be solicited in the Najd. In his lifetime, he married a total of 20 wives (taking care not to exceed 4 at a time, of course) who furnished him with 18 children.

Uthman ibn Muammar's indifference, however, came to be sorely tested when Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab dragged a woman accused of adultery out into a public square and stoned her to death. Some report that he had, in fact, used a heavy boulder to crush her head. The action triggered widespread fury.

Non-Muslims would profess puzzlement at the villagers' reaction. Does Islam, like Judaism, not condemn all adulterers to death by stoning?

The perception is true, but there is a caveat. Umar ibn Khattab, one of Prophet Muhammad's close companions and a Rightly-Guided Caliph, is said to have caught a couple engaging in adulterous sex. The Quranic punishment for such behavior was indeed death by stoning, but Ali, another companion, reminded Umar that no fewer than four witnesses are required to certify guilt for such an accusation, and that if he acted without such testimony, he himself would sin. Umar abided by Ali's advice and pardoned the couple. It must be noted here that although Umar- whose very shadow the devil was said to run away from- had witnessed the act, he had no authority to suspend Quranic laws.

Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab's behavior was made worse by the fact that he was not recognized as al-Uyayna's qadi, which was Uthman's position. At best, the woman's death was a product of vigilante justice, which flies completely in the face of Islam. In his book, the "The Eternal Message of Muhammad", the late Abdul Rahman Azzam stated that an ulema "should be of mature age and a man of wisdom, enjoy popular support and be a person who draws on the...counsel of the natural leaders. But if he disobeys the commands of God and disregards the interests of the people, he will be repudiated."

http://www.higher-criticism.com/2005/09/muhammad-ibn-abdul-wahhab_19.html



The Good & the Bad
Stephen Schwartz on Islam and Wahhabism.

A Q&A by Kathryn Jean Lopez

Stephen Schwartz, an author and journalist, is author of The Two Faces of Islam: The House of Sa'ud from Tradition to Terror. A vociferous critic of Wahhabism, Schwartz is a frequent contributor to National Review, The Weekly Standard, and other publications.

Kathryn Jean Lopez: What is Wahhabism?

Stephen Schwartz: Wahhabism is an extremist, puritanical, and violent movement that emerged, with the pretension of "reforming" Islam, in the central area of Arabia in the 18th century.

http://www.nationalreview.com/interrogatory/interrogatory111802.asp



Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-05-2008, 11:57 AM
Not sure where you're going with this as I'm not able to view the videos, but it appears to me that Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhabi is guilty of the same crime as many other religeous leaders have been over millenea, and that is corruption. Manipulating peoples faith and belief systems in order to promote their won cause, position and power.

Adrian Wainer
10-05-2008, 02:06 PM
The Devil Made me do it!

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=hCYRt78zUWY

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Kent
10-05-2008, 05:21 PM
from Jihad Watch:
"As for Western infidels, Osama bin Laden himself has announced on various occasions that, since America is a democracy, and thus responsible for its government (which is always portrayed as one of the greatest enemies of Islam), "Every American man is an enemy—whether he fights us directly or pays his taxes," (The Al Qaeda Reader, 281). Accordingly, al-Qaeda issued its famous fatwa in 1998 concluding that "The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilian and military—is an individual obligation incumbent upon every Muslim who can do it and in any country" (AQR, 13)."

Can't you just feel the love?

Adrian Wainer
10-05-2008, 05:39 PM
Accordingly, al-Qaeda issued its famous fatwa in 1998 concluding that "The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilian and military—is an individual obligation incumbent upon every Muslim who can do it and in any country" (AQR, 13)."

Hi Kent. It is interesting that Osama bin-Laden takes up on himself rights and authority, that the Prophet Mohammed pbuh would not have claimed for himself. The reality is that Osama bin Laden has about as much Islamic authority as Donald Duck. LOL

For anybody who would like to see Islam presented in an intelligent and traditional manner, here ye go.........

http://forum.starwreck.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6688

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Kent
10-05-2008, 07:45 PM
Excerpts from Islam 101 by Gregory M. Davis:

Significantly, while the West has for some time now lamented the Crusades as mistaken, there has never been any mention from any serious Islamic authority of regret for the centuries and centuries of jihad and dhimmitude perpetrated against other societies. But this is hardly surprising: while religious violence contradicts the fundamentals of Christianity, religious violence is written into Islam's DNA.

The unhappy fact is that Islam today is what it has been for fourteen centuries: violent, intolerant, and expansionary. It is folly to think that we, in the course of a few years or decades, are going to be able to change the basic world outlook of a foreign civilization. Islam's violent nature must be accepted as given; only then will we be able to come up with appropriate policy responses that can improve our chances of survival.

Excerpt from Islam and Innocence by Raymond Ibrahim:

Islamic apologists often point out that Islam is not a monolith and that there are differences of opinion among the different Islamic schools of thought. That is true, but, while there are differences, there are also common elements. Just as Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant Christians differ on many aspects of Christianity, still they accept important common elements. So it is with Islam. One of the common elements to all Islamic schools of thought is jihad, understood as the obligation of the Ummah to conquer and subdue the world in the name of Allah and rule it under Sharia law. The four Sunni Madhhabs (schools of fiqh [Islamic religious jurisprudence]) -- Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali -- all agree that there is a collective obligation on Muslims to make war on the rest of the world.

Kent: At last count, of 28 current ongoing armed confilicts in the world, 26 of them were being perpetrated by Islamists.

32Bravo
10-06-2008, 03:04 AM
I would suppopse that the greatest armed conflicts the world has ever known were perpetrated by Christians?

As a matter of interest, how many of us are aware that the Mongol hordes were defeated by Muslim forces while the rest of the world trembled.

Rising Sun*
10-06-2008, 07:14 AM
Excerpts from Islam 101 by Gregory M. Davis:

Significantly, while the West has for some time now lamented the Crusades as mistaken, there has never been any mention from any serious Islamic authority of regret for the centuries and centuries of jihad and dhimmitude perpetrated against other societies. But this is hardly surprising: while religious violence contradicts the fundamentals of Christianity, religious violence is written into Islam's DNA.

And not in Christianity's DNA?

What did the Catholics do in the New World? What authority did the popes give the conquistadors etc over the 'savages' in the New World?

What about the Inquisitions, which most people think were limited to the Spanish Inquisitions?

What about the Protestant and Catholic wars in Europe over many centuries?

What about WWI and WWII in Europe, which was a conflict caused by expansion by a Christian country and resisted by mostly Christian countries (or all Christian countries if one accepts that Stalin & Co hadn't eradicated Christianity in the USSR)?


The unhappy fact is that Islam today is what it has been for fourteen centuries: violent, intolerant, and expansionary.

Contrasted with what?

Christianity's peace and light among their own lot during the same period?


Kent: At last count, of 28 current ongoing armed confilicts in the world, 26 of them were being perpetrated by Islamists.

Perpetrated by Islamists?

Did the Iraqis attack themselves? Both times?

What is an 'Islamist'?

Where are these 28 current armed conflicts perpetrated by 'Islamists'?

Chechnya?

South Ossetia?

Burma?

Peru?

Adrian Wainer
10-06-2008, 08:02 AM
Part 1


Excerpts from Islam 101 by Gregory M. Davis:

Significantly, while the West has for some time now lamented the Crusades as mistaken, there has never been any mention from any serious Islamic authority of regret for the centuries and centuries of jihad and dhimmitude perpetrated against other societies.

Islam is in a mess, people often make a criticism of Islamofascist "Muslims" that they wish to return the World to the 7th century, this is grossly unfair to traditionalist Islam in that within the norms of the 7th century, Islam was a progressive religion, essentially what the "Islamists" who attract such criticism want to do is to strip away any aspect of civilized behaviour whatsoever, in a marriage of such technology as they consider useful to their purpose with the rule of a religious lynch-mob. For sure, the West has now sees the Crusades as flawed but unfortunatly things are not as simple as that, in that a considerable amount of activity in the West today is only the sort of mischief the crusaders were upto in a new and more politically correct form, in that the thinly disguised attacks on Jews which takes the form of the State of Israel being expected to operate to impossibly high standards whilst other states can do what they want with little or no criticism, is just a new expression of the old combination of money making and anti-semitism, that one found when the crusaders where murdering the Jews in the holyland by slitting open their stomachs in case they had swallowed coins or jewelry to hide them from the invading crusader troops. Look at the size of China it is one of the biggest countries in the World and they are occupying a sovereign state Tibet and they are doing things like forcing Tibetan Women to have abortions at full term ie eight months and yes there is some criticism of China in relation to Tibet but it is nothing compared to criticism which Israel attracts. Israel is a very small country and much of the World is occupied by Arab and Islamic States and Israel has already agreed the principle that the Palestinans should have a sovereign state in the West Bank and Gaza. So obviously one rule for the Peoples Republic of China and another rule for the State of Israel, well it is just the same old crusader mentality of greed, aggression and hatred of Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad



But this is hardly surprising: while religious violence contradicts the fundamentals of Christianity, religious violence is written into Islam's DNA.

Well sorry at a practical level, religious violence does not contradict the fundamentals of Christanity. Organized Christanity has had no problem working with the most nasty forms of viciousness throughout the centuries, whatever might be the true message of the Gospels and they might indeed forbid religious violence, that is of little comfort if the practical experience of non-christians is that they are being murdered by people who call themselves Christians, saying they are doing the will of Christ. And your argument is almost quite as ridiculous as people who say Islam is the religion of Peace, well not if you are some poor christian in Pakistan and running for your life from a bunch of knife wielding Islamist maniacs, because somebody has spread a false rumour you have insulted the Prophet Mohammed pbuh. As for DNA, religions do not have DNA; animals e.g. People, dogs, cats, rabbits, flies etc have DNA so it is impossible to make any sort of response to that point.



The unhappy fact is that Islam today is what it has been for fourteen centuries: violent, intolerant, and expansionary. It is folly to think that we, in the course of a few years or decades, are going to be able to change the basic world outlook of a foreign civilization. Islam's violent nature must be accepted as given; only then will we be able to come up with appropriate policy responses that can improve our chances of survival.

Well Islam has over billion adherents, and it has no Pope or centralized structure, yes for sure there are commonalities and general trends but there are variations and e.g. there is a huge Muslim population in the Indian sub-continent. The Islam we know in the West is one strand of Islam and is Wahabi Arab racial supremacist Islam, now how does that fit in with one's interests if one is a Pakastani or Indian? The simple answer is that it does not, now of course there will be be will be people who will be Pakastani and Indian Muslims who will support Wahabi Arab racial supremacist Islam but the majority of them will only do so, if they have been tricked in to believing it is not, what it really is. Islamist propagandists portray historical Islamic rule as a golden age of peace and tolerance, well that is very far from the truth, non-Muslims were most certainly not equal with Muslims in historical Islamic states and where there were aspects of democracy they were of the most rudimentary forms, if they existed at all. Furthermore since Islamic rule operated as a sort of dictatorship with at best some slight aspects of democracy attached to it, that meant that the welfare of the both the Muslim and non-Muslim peoples in an Islamic state was essentially down to the charactor of the ruler and if a bad intentioned ruler came to the power, the results for the Muslim or non-Muslim subjects or both could be terrible hardship. All that said, historically Islam has had sucesses in creating a better society than what Christians were achieving, in that historically their treatment of minority religions was better than Christians. For much of the history of Christanity, the positions of the various Christians Churches has been, that if non-Christians wish to live in a christian state they have two simple choices [ 1] Acknowlege our Lord Jesus Christ is the one true God ie become Christians. [ 2 ] Be put to death. Now contrast that, with the Muslim states where Jews could retain their religion and even become advisors to the ruler, where they would have an important role in influencing State policy. Furthermore, Christian States could be just as murderous with minority Christian communities as they could be in their dealings with Jews and over theological disputes which might seem as esoteric to us, as how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, so the situation for these minority Christian communities in a Christian State could [ 1] Acknowlege [ our version of ] our Lord Jesus Christ is the one true God and if you do not want to do that [ 2 ] Be put to death. And for that reason, it could well happen that it was safer for Christians to live in a Muslim state, if the alternative was living as a minority in Christian State.

Continued in Part 2

Adrian Wainer
10-06-2008, 08:04 AM
Part 2



Excerpt from Islam and Innocence by Raymond Ibrahim:

Islamic apologists often point out that Islam is not a monolith and that there are differences of opinion among the different Islamic schools of thought. That is true, but, while there are differences, there are also common elements. Just as Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant Christians differ on many aspects of Christianity, still they accept important common elements. So it is with Islam. One of the common elements to all Islamic schools of thought is jihad, understood as the obligation of the Ummah to conquer and subdue the world in the name of Allah and rule it under Sharia law. The four Sunni Madhhabs (schools of fiqh [Islamic religious jurisprudence]) -- Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali -- all agree that there is a collective obligation on Muslims to make war on the rest of the world.

For sure one can reasonably construct an argument that Islam instructs its followers to conquer the World, and it is indeed a little harder or quite a good bit harder to do that with Christanity. The reason being that the Prophet Mohammed pbuh was a religious leader, a general and politician. Now obviously, if you are a general and a War gets started and you fight Wars, that will give plenty of arguments to those that come after you to engage in aggressive conquest for the purpose of acquiring lebensraum, making forced conversion of non-Muslims etc if that General is also portrayed as God's messenger. On the other hand, by having a central religious figure who is also a general, this can have the positive effect on setting prohibitions on aggressive militarism. At a simplistic level, Christanity is a very pacific religion, Christ could have taken to the hills and led a guerilla Army against the Romans and those of the Jewish people who disagreed with him but he didn't, he accepted his fate and was crucified on the cross. Now at a simplistic level, Christanity should be the last thing in the word that could be employed as a vehicle for tyranny and violence. Unfortunately life is not simple, now if one believes that Jesus was the son of God or that the Gospels are exact historical fact or both one might believe that Pontious Pilate acted like he did as described in the Gospels because that is what happened. On the other hand if one does not believe that Jesus was the son of God or that the Gospels are the not historical truth, that opens up the possibility that Christanity did a big whitewash job on Pontious Pilate because that was the price that Christanity was prepared to pay for being adopted as the State Religion of the Roman Empire, well if one accepts the possibility that the Early Church did a Whitewash job on Pontious Pilate well then maybe the Jews had little or nothing to do with Jesus' execution on the Cross, some Jews would have joined him of course but maybe the rest though he was some sort of crazy preacher that whilst he said things which might or might not have been against the Jewish orthdoxy of the time, he wasn't worth worrying about and maybe it was the Roman authorities which arrested him and executed him because they percieved him as a threat to Roman rule and Jesus' death was nothing to do with the Jews. If that was the case, we would have had Christians running around for centuries murdering Jews for the killing of Christ, which was in fact a cover-up job between the Early Church and the Roman Empire. Now lets get to the issue of original sin, many Christians believe in the issue of original sin. Now if one starts off from the position that everybody is born in to the World as a sinner and the only way to cleanse oneself of sin is submission to the mercy of Jesus Christ, straight away one can construct an argument from that, in which it is in everybody's interest to submit to Christ and if they are foolish enough not to, they have to be killed as sinners and in fact if one threatens to kill them if they do not submit to Christ one is actually doing them a great service, for if they then submit to Christ at the point of one's sword at least they have possibility of being spared from eternal damnation in the afterlife, which would be their certain fate had they not submitted to Christ.




Kent: At last count, of 28 current ongoing armed confilicts in the world, 26 of them were being perpetrated by Islamists.

Well that is true, but e.g. President George Bush claims to be Christian, a Republican and an American patriot and yet the Wahabis who call Christians "Pigs", are running much of the Mosques and Muslim educational establishements in America. Whilst France, which is supposedly a Republican and secular State sold Saddam Hussein an Islamofascist opportunist, a nuclear weapons factory and a biological weapons factory. Whilst so called Socialists in the West, ally themselves with Jew hating Mad Mullahs that advocate rolling homosexuals up in carpets and throwing them off high buildings to their death. For sure, the Islamic World is in a mess and the most significant and greatest blame for this must rest with Muslims themselves but they are having a great deal of help from the West in keeping it in a mess.

Best and Warm regards
Adrian Wainer

Rising Sun*
10-06-2008, 08:47 AM
The Islam we know in the West is one strand of Islam and is Wahabi Arab racial supremacist Islam, ...

Well, I've been missing something in my almost daily contacts with various Muslims over the past couple of decades.

Admittedly, my contact has been limited to Muslims from India, Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaya, Thailand, Saudia Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain, the Philippines, the Horn of Africa, and sundry other parts of the world.

I must have missed the Wahabbi strain which infected all of them.

Although, from my experience of hypocritical religious arseholes, once they get out here the wealthy Saudis are at the top of the tree for getting on the grog and shagging themselves stupid with any woman they can get their prongs into and generally behaving contrary to the religious requirements they'll sanctimoniously uphold when they go back to the twelfth century with a few modern conveniences like Mercedes limos and so on. Oddly enough, that is exactly the impression an Australian friend of mine formed after a few years as a crew member on a certain anonymous airline from that part of the world. The blokes behave themselves when families are aboard, but on an all male flight it's time for hands up the stewardess's panties.

Adrian Wainer
10-06-2008, 08:59 AM
I would suppopse that the greatest armed conflicts the world has ever known were perpetrated by Christians?

As a matter of interest, how many of us are aware that the Mongol hordes were defeated by Muslim forces while the rest of the world trembled.

Basically nobody knows about this, and an interesting thing too, I was speaking to some Libyan Muslims and they were complaining that Muslim world is in a mess and they did not blame America, Britain or Israel but said what had happened was that, when the Muslim World came under attack from the Mongols it developed a siege mentality that served the purpose at the time of the crisis but afterwords became a liability and this was at the root of the present problems, I have not had the time to research this issue but it is certainly an interesting line of thought.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer
10-06-2008, 09:12 AM
Although, from my experience of hypocritical religious arseholes, once they get out here the wealthy Saudis are at the top of the tree for getting on the grog and shagging themselves stupid with any woman they can get their prongs into and generally behaving contrary to the religious requirements they'll sanctimoniously uphold when they go back to the twelfth century with a few modern conveniences like Mercedes limos and so on. Oddly enough, that is exactly the impression an Australian friend of mine formed after a few years as a crew member on a certain anonymous airline from that part of the world. The blokes behave themselves when families are aboard, but on an all male flight it's time for hands up the stewardess's panties.

Well basically that would be par for the course, in that Hitler was claiming the Aryan peasant as the ideal of manhood and proposed the creation of a socialist state, whilst he adopted the lifestyle of an aristocrat with none of the responsabilities that went with that class of society and allied himself with big business.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-06-2008, 11:17 AM
Basically nobody knows about this.



Basicall nobody knows about this what???

History of Jihad against the Mongols (1050-1258)

http://www.historyofjihad.org/mongolia.html


http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/mongols/ilkhanate.html

32Bravo
10-06-2008, 11:18 AM
Are we saying that Islamic are driven by Satan, or that Islamic leaders are Satan in human form?

Adrian Wainer
10-06-2008, 11:39 AM
Are we saying that Islamic are driven by Satan, or that Islamic leaders are Satan in human form?

I don't believe Satan actually exists, so it would be illogical on my part to maintain a position that any Muslim is actually Satan or any Muslim is actually receiving assistance from a non-existant entity. However that said, Satan does exist according to Islamic scripture and therefor some Muslims could believe that they are fighting Satan and that other people both Muslim and non-Muslim would be co-operating with Satan, they might even believe a particular person was actually the Devil. Also some Christians who would believe in the Devil, might believe that some or all Muslims would be in league with the Devil or even that a particular Muslim was the Devil. Also some Muslims could believe that Satan was assisting them and or directing them. So I think Islam is something which is reasonable to bring in to the equation, when talking about the Devil.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-06-2008, 12:58 PM
I don't believe Satan actually exists, so it would be illogical on my part to maintain a position that any Muslim is actually Satan or any Muslim is actually receiving assistance from a non-existant entity. However that said, Satan does exist according to Islamic scripture and therefor some Muslims could believe that they are fighting Satan and that other people both Muslim and non-Muslim would be co-operating with Satan, they might even believe a particular person was actually the Devil. Also some Christians who would believe in the Devil, might believe that some or all Muslims would be in league with the Devil or even that a particular Muslim was the Devil. Also some Muslims could believe that Satan was assisting them and or directing them. So I think Islam is something which is reasonable to bring in to the equation, when talking about the Devil.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Waffle (What our American brethren would refer to as Bullshitting)!




I don't believe Satan actually exists, so it would be illogical on my part to maintain a position that any Muslim is actually Satan or any Muslim is actually receiving assistance from a non-existant entity.

You may not believe that Satan exists, but that by no means rules out the existence of Satan!

From my perspective, it appears that you are attempting to demonise Muslims?????

Kent
10-06-2008, 02:41 PM
The men I quoted, Davis and Ibrahim, were reporting the results of their scholarly studies of Islamic doctrine ie: exploring Islam’s system of beliefs by researching its historic texts. They are not simply amateurs conjecturing about anecdotal evidence.

I haven't detected a growing outcry coming from amongst the 2 billion everyday Muslims, objecting to the rising tide of violence being committed against infidels and innocents in the name of Islam. And you won’t, be they either ignorant or intimidated, probably both. The one thing most all Muslims understand is there are only two kinds of people in the world; Muslims and infidels, and you only follow the tenets of Islam when it involves one Muslim to another. The rules change drastically when it comes to infidels.

That said, I have no doubt the average person of faith; Islamic, Buddhist, Christian, VooDoo, whatever, actually knows the doctrinal details at the inner core of his religion. They usually leave that to their religious leaders to tell them what they are. If each person of faith actually studied the doctrine of their chosen faith then, there would be a lot fewer denominations, sects, cults, etc. As it is, even the religious leaders, formerly ordained and self-ordained, have given us every shade of belief imaginable, and then some.

Although you may have detailed knowledge of the correct religious doctrine of your faith, whether you live your life according to that doctrine is a whole different matter. Sometimes, once you are truly enlightened as to what your current doctrine is, you may not like it, and even change to another. Christianity is no different in this respect.

Regarding my Christian belief, although there is supposed to be only one Bible, there are many counterfeit bibles (small "b"), counterfeit gods (small "g"), and the result is the aforementioned. Some of these counterfeit bibles are quite subtle, and contain many errors. However, the most accurate (the original, infallible texts have long since disappeared) standard is The King James Version of 1611, the first English translation from the earliest, authenticated Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek transcriptions.

Even with the KJV there are many different interpretations, some with a large helping of opinion thrown in. Sometimes, it’s difficult to tell which is which. But the two basic laws of Christianity are very easily understood:


Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (KJV)

It’s just the nature of fallen man to pull things out of context that he likes, and ignore or modify what he doesn’t like. He deliberately changes things to suit his personal, sinful agenda, ie: he wants to be his own god.

You either have the God of the Bible, or a god of your own making.

Text out of context is a pretext.

There are two basic kinds Christians; professing and possessing.

32Bravo
10-06-2008, 03:27 PM
I haven't detected a rising groundswell coming from amongst the 2 billion everyday Muslims, objecting to the growing tide of violence being committed against infidels and innocents in the name of Islam. And you won’t, be they either ignorant or intimidated, probably both. The one thing most all Muslims understand is there are only two kinds of people in the world; Muslims and infidels, and you only follow the tenets of Islam when it involves one Muslim to another. The rules change drastically when it comes to infidels.

Of course, you are qualified to speak for all Muslims - or, could it be that this is your opinion?

My God is the righteous the true God because he is the one I believe in! :(



That said, I have no doubt the average person of faith; Islamic, Buddhist, Christian, VooDoo, whatever, actually knows the doctrinal details at the inner core of his religion. They usually leave that to their religious leaders to tell them what they are. If each person of faith actually studied the doctrine of their chosen faith then, there would be a lot fewer denominations, sects, cults, etc. As it is, even the religious leaders, formerly ordained and self-ordained, have given us every shade of belief imaginable, and then some.

Although you may have detailed knowledge of the correct religious doctrine of your faith, whether you live your life according to that doctrine is a whole different matter. Sometimes, once you are truly enlightened as to what your current doctrine is, you may not like it, and even change to another. Christianity is no different in this respect.

Regarding my Christian belief, although there is supposed to be only one Bible, there are many counterfeit bibles (small "b"), counterfeit gods (small "g"), and the result is the aforementioned. Some of these counterfeit bibles are quite subtle, and contain many errors. However, the most accurate (the original, infallible texts have long since disappeared) standard is called The King James Version of 1611, the first English translation from the earliest, authenticated Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek transcriptions.

Even with the KJV there are many different interpretations, some with a large helping of opinion thrown in. Sometimes, it’s difficult to tell which is which. But the two basic laws of Christianity are very easily understood:


Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (KJV)


It's simply a matter of faith. Without it, none of what you say has any value.



It’s just the nature of fallen man to pull things out of context that he likes, and ignore or modify what he doesn’t like. He deliberately changes things to suit his personal, sinful agenda, ie: he wants to be his own god.

You either have the God of the Bible, or a god of your own making.

Text out of context is a pretext.

There are two basic kinds Christians; professing and possessing.

Opinions, opinions, opinions! From how many pulpits have you heard that mouthed?

Adrian Wainer
10-06-2008, 04:31 PM
Waffle (What our American brethren would refer to as Bullshitting)!

In your personal opinion



You may not believe that Satan exists, but that by no means rules out the existence of Satan!
Other people believe Satan exists and they are entitled to their opinion and they might be right, Satan might exist but I do not believe he exists.



From my perspective, it appears that you are attempting to demonise Muslims?????

Well from your perspective the sun might go around the earth, you might see fairies at bottom of your garden, the BBC may be percieved as a public service broadcaster, Neill Kinnock may be the greatest politican of the 20th Century and the Daily Sport may be regarded as a serious newspaper, well if you think I am attempting to demonize Muslims you are entitled to your opinion as to whether it has any relationship with reality is an entirely different matter.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Kent
10-06-2008, 07:00 PM
RISING SUN,
‘Sorry for the slow response, I don’t visit the forum every day. Besides, it takes time to cobble together answers. Volumes have been written addressing the few questions you posed in your post. But I’ll try to keep it short and to the point. But as you will plainly see, I haven't gotten the hang of this posting thing, yet. I appreciate your patience, in advance.

RS QUOTE: But, as with so much in the Bible, pulling a few lines of text out of context to prove a point is often undermined when the full context is presented, even without introducing external arguments. The relevant passage, in what Christians believe to be Paul's letter to Timothy, is;

Yes, indeed, context is of vital importance, yet many verses can stand completely on their own. Such as a proclamation.


2 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

RS QUOTE: If Christ is the only mediator between man and God, then Christian churches and religions are a waste of space and time as they cannot mediate between God and man.

The church on earth is one in Christ despite the great number of local congregations and denominations. It is holy because it is consecrated to worship God corporately, as each Christian is individually. It is catholic (small "c" meaning, "universal") because it is worldwide. Finally, it is termed apostolic because it is founded on the teaching of the original Apostles personally chosen by Christ.


Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Christ is the head of the church, for whom the church exists and as such, only He is fit to be a mediator between God and men because He is truly holy; perfect, sinless, eternal and as such can intercede for us with God for the forgiveness of our sins. He is the incarnate Son of the Triune God. All mortal men are sinful, and a sinful man by definition, is therefore totally unfit. That is why we need only pray and confess in Jesus’ name for God to hear our prayers, and forgive our sins. Scripture is emphatic; there is no other way.


Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because He continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this He did once, when He offered up Himself.


Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

A Biblical church is to have a foundation of Apostolic Teaching; the teachings set forth by Christ’s Apostles, who he personally taught. Biblical definition of Apostle; One who is authorized speak with the same authority as the one who sent him. Only Christ’s apostles, whom he personally chose, and whose teachings are recorded in the Bible, are to be taught, nothing else.

As for the role of mortal men in the church, they need to institute and perpetuate, in accordance with Scripture, three basic things for a church to meet the definition of an "apostolic church": 1) Ordained men (formally trained for) preaching God’s Word (the Bible), and 2) administering the Sacraments (baptism and the Lord’s Supper), and 3) Biblical discipline.

RS QUOTE: Isn't it a bit absurd for Paul to assert that Christ is the only mediator between man and God, and then go on to claim to be a preacher ordained by God who, inevitably, interposes himself between man, Christ and God?

As an Apostle personally chosen by Christ on the road to Damascus, Paul indeed spoke "in the Spirit", but he made no such claim to be the mediator between Christ or God, and men. Paul, of all people, knew better.


Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Kent
10-06-2008, 07:26 PM
Of course, you are qualified to speak for all Muslims - or, could it be that this is your opinion?

My God is the righteous the true God because he is the one I believe in! :(



It's simply a matter of faith. Without it, none of what you say has any value.



Opinions, opinions, opinions! From how many pulpits have you heard that mouthed?

And who do you speak for?

Adrian Wainer
10-06-2008, 07:55 PM
Personally I blame the Jews, they must be involved with the Devil. See video for important evidence which backs up my long held suspicions in this matter.

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=_5t0SliycSQ

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-07-2008, 02:29 AM
In your personal opinion


Absolutely!



Other people believe Satan exists and they are entitled to their opinion and they might be right, Satan might exist but I do not believe he exists.


Fair enough, but you are stating your opinion as fact.



Well from your perspective the sun might go around the earth, you might see fairies at bottom of your garden, the BBC may be percieved as a public service broadcaster, Neill Kinnock may be the greatest politican of the 20th Century and the Daily Sport may be regarded as a serious newspaper,

I haven't offered any of these arguments as being fact or opinion.
Just a puerile attempt to ridicule,. Perhaps, you dislike being challenged!? :roll:

32Bravo
10-07-2008, 02:32 AM
My nominations for the three members that most exhibit the Christain virtues are:

Egorka - for his quiet devotuism;

BoxerRick - for his Christian exuberence;

Rising Sun - for he fights the good fight regardless of what he professes.

As for the Devil...I wouldn't like to say. ;)

Kent
10-07-2008, 07:19 AM
[QUOTE=Adrian Wainer;137871]Personally I blame the Jews, they must be involved with the Devil. See video for important evidence which backs up my long held suspicions in this matter.

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=_5t0SliycSQ

Adrian,
I would hardly indict an entire race of people for being in league with Satan based on a YouTube video which, by the way, I could not view because it would not load. And the last time I checked, Jews were not committing suicide by detonating explosive vests in public places, beheading people, or flying airliners full of innocents into tall buildings.

Adrian Wainer
10-07-2008, 03:41 PM
Absolutely!

Well we are agreed on that.



Fair enough, but you are stating your opinion as fact.
Yes you are perfectly right, [ but perhaps not in the manner you intend to be ], I am stating my opinion that I do not believe the devil exists as a fact, because it is a fact that I hold such an opinion As to whether the Devil does actually exist or not, that is a seperate matter to my belief that he does not exist.



I haven't offered any of these arguments as being fact or opinion.
No you haven't, however your counter argument would carry more weight, if I actually said you did and I didn't.



Just a puerile attempt to ridicule,. Perhaps, you dislike being challenged!? :roll:

You may honestly believe that, but you would be wrong.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer
10-07-2008, 04:05 PM
Personally I blame the Jews, they must be involved with the Devil. See video for important evidence which backs up my long held suspicions in this matter.

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=_5t0SliycSQ

Adrian,
I would hardly indict an entire race of people for being in league with Satan based on a YouTube video which, by the way, I could not view because it would not load. And the last time I checked, Jews were not committing suicide by detonating explosive vests in public places, beheading people, or flying airliners full of innocents into tall buildings.

Obviously Kent, you are at a disadvantage if you can not see the Video, so no criticism intended on my part of you. The Video is a clip [ originally ] from a comedy film in which there are Jewish people in New York in a taxi in a traffic jam, before that we see Jews dancing in the Streets. There is some edited in written materiel which sets the the scene, so that the Jews dancing in the Street are presumed to cause the traffic jam, whilst the Jews within the taxi then avoid the inconvenience of the traffic jam by getting out of the taxi and carrying it over the other cars in the traffic jam. So, the Jews cause a problem for ordinary people with their selfishness i.e. dancing in the street but it is no problem for them because they have special abilities i.e. carrying the car. There are also references to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Jews eating Palestinian babies. The Video clip is actually originally from a very nice comedy film, on which the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea has done a hatchet job to produce a piece of anti-semitic propaganda. If you had seen the clip, I would have hoped that you would have got my intended point that I posted it, to flag up the issue that a lot of the materiel which appears in the Western Media, is really only the same sort of stuff but presented in a very much more sophiscated manner and hence a lot more genuinely nasty.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Kent
10-07-2008, 06:47 PM
[QUOTE=Kent;137979]

Obviously Kent, you are at a disadvantage if you can not see the Video, so no criticism intended on my part of you. The Video is a clip [ originally ] from a comedy film in which there are Jewish people in New York in a taxi in a traffic jam, before that we see Jews dancing in the Streets. There is some edited in written materiel which sets the the scene, so that the Jews dancing in the Street are presumed to cause the traffic jam, whilst the Jews within the taxi then avoid the inconvenience of the traffic jam by getting out of the taxi and carrying it over the other cars in the traffic jam. So, the Jews cause a problem for ordinary people with their selfishness i.e. dancing in the street but it is no problem for them because they have special abilities i.e. carrying the car. There are also references to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Jews eating Palestinian babies. The Video clip is actually originally from a very nice comedy film, on which the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea has done a hatchet job to produce a piece of anti-semitic propaganda. If you had seen the clip, I would have hoped that you would have got my intended point that I posted it, to flag up the issue that a lot of the materiel which appears in the Western Media, is really only the same sort of stuff but presented in a very much more sophiscated manner and hence a lot more genuinely nasty.

Adrian,
Thanks for the slack. The next morning I tried again and no problem, I saw the video. The clip was very anti-Semetic, before the North Koreans got hold of it. It may have been done inocently enough just to get a laugh, but it was a given that someone would use it for no good. Given the plight of Jews thoughout history, I doubt if they saw any humor in it.

Adrian Wainer
10-07-2008, 08:49 PM
Adrian,
Thanks for the slack. The next morning I tried again and no problem, I saw the video. The clip was very anti-Semetic, before the North Koreans got hold of it. It may have been done inocently enough just to get a laugh, but it was a given that someone would use it for no good. Given the plight of Jews thoughout history, I doubt if they saw any humor in it.

No I would not criticize the film, the original film is really a very nice film and really there is not anything anti-semetic about the original film, like in the original film the Jews had nothing to do with causing the traffic jam and they are being clever and strong in carrying the taxi.

this is the start of the original film

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=8XwlGI9L6gI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mad_Adventures_of_Rabbi_Jacob

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-08-2008, 02:51 AM
Whatever you say, old chum.

Adrian Wainer
10-08-2008, 06:49 AM
Devil Doll ?

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=TKahCRbWnkw

First of all is this story a hoax ?, and if it is not, I think it a bit unfair that the reporter apparently has a problem with the Doll saying "Islam is the Light" but seems at best disinterested in that the Doll is also apparently saying "Satan is the King".

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Kent
10-09-2008, 08:28 AM
Devil Doll ?
First of all is this story a hoax ?, and if it is not, I think it a bit unfair that the reporter apparently has a problem with the Doll saying "Islam is the Light" but seems at best disinterested in that the Doll is also apparently saying "Satan is the King".


2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Adrian Wainer
10-09-2008, 09:32 AM
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

I am inclined to think it is a hoax. The following is the station that apparently carried the story and I can't find any mention of it there.

http://www.myfoxny.com

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

kiwimac
10-11-2008, 01:55 PM
Couple of points if I may.

1: Let's not blame Satan for things which ordinary human ignorance and incompetence as well as other factors, ie. Greed, cause. Frankly we humans can do the evil thing quite nicely without any help from the spiritual realms.

2: If we posit that Hitler was in league with Satan we run the very real risk of making his kind of evil a viable option again because we have taken the blame OFF the human and placed it on an external source of evil. Hitler, for all his hatreds, was a human being. He did nothing that other humans have not done in the past, can do now and will do (God forfend!) in the future.

3: Satan, given that he was God's creation, is loved by God.

Kent
10-12-2008, 02:17 PM
Couple of points if I may.

1: Let's not blame Satan for things which ordinary human ignorance and incompetence as well as other factors, ie. Greed, cause. Frankly we humans can do the evil thing quite nicely without any help from the spiritual realms.

2: If we posit that Hitler was in league with Satan we run the very real risk of making his kind of evil a viable option again because we have taken the blame OFF the human and placed it on an external source of evil. Hitler, for all his hatreds, was a human being. He did nothing that other humans have not done in the past, can do now and will do (God forfend!) in the future.

3: Satan, given that he was God's creation, is loved by God.

1. True
2. False; Satan can only tempt us. It's up to us whether or not we take the bait.
3. False; God loves his creation, but not all his creatures. He can do that because He's God, and we're not.


Romans 9:9-16 For this word of promise, According to this time I will come, and there shall be a son to Sarah. And not only, but Rebecca having conceived by one, Isaac our father, indeed being not yet born, or having done anything good or bad (that the purpose of God according to election might abide, not of works, but of him that calls), it was said to her, The greater shall serve the lesser: according as it is written, I have loved Jacob, and I have hated Esau. What shall we say then? Unrighteousness with God? Far be the thought. For He says to Moses, I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy, and I will feel compassion for whom I will feel compassion. So then not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shews mercy.

kiwimac
10-12-2008, 02:33 PM
Kent, I disagree with your points 2 & 3. Hitler was a human-being with all the problems normally inherent in that situation but with particular foibles and temptations as well. Nonetheless it WAS Hitler who did the evil no one else. You may ascribe hate to God, I do not, further I would have considered that John 3:16 put paid to Paul's line of reasoning.

Adrian Wainer
10-12-2008, 04:05 PM
Couple of points if I may.

1: Let's not blame Satan for things which ordinary human ignorance and incompetence as well as other factors, ie. Greed, cause. Frankly we humans can do the evil thing quite nicely without any help from the spiritual realms.

Well you seem to be operating by a priori adopting a moral position and then trying to manipulate reality to fit comfortably with it. It would seem a perfectly legitimate point to make that human beings can do bad things without the assistance of evil supernatural beings, however if you believe in the existance of such evil supernatural beings as they are described within Christian theology, well then it is fact of life that sometimes these supernatural beings might assist human wrongdoers, that does not excuse the human wrongdoer from blame for his or her actions, even if they have had assistance from an evil supernatural force, as human beings still have freedom of will.



2: If we posit that Hitler was in league with Satan we run the very real risk of making his kind of evil a viable option again because we have taken the blame OFF the human and placed it on an external source of evil. Hitler, for all his hatreds, was a human being. He did nothing that other humans have not done in the past, can do now and will do (God forfend!) in the future.

Well if the Devil or other Evil supernatural forces exists, why can't they have helped Hitler. And Hitler's actions are still just as evil in that he [ ie Hitler ] still had free will, even if one was to suppose he had help from the Devil.



3: Satan, given that he was God's creation, is loved by God.

I don't know whether God would love the Devil or not and what difference would it make either way?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Kent
10-13-2008, 04:37 PM
Kent, I disagree with your points 2 & 3. Hitler was a human-being with all the problems normally inherent in that situation but with particular foibles and temptations as well. Nonetheless it WAS Hitler who did the evil no one else. You may ascribe hate to God, I do not, further I would have considered that John 3:16 put paid to Paul's line of reasoning.

Believe it or not, I was previously in agreement with your first point, and still am. And with all due respect, I was not ascribing, I was quoting. The Bible is not called "The Word of God" for nothing.


2 Peter 1:20,21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Look at John 3:16, again; the operative word is, "whosoever". Then look at Romans 9:11b, again; the operative phrase is, "that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth".

kiwimac
10-14-2008, 02:23 AM
Be careful there. Paul makes it quite clear that as Death came through the first Adam so Life has come through the second and just as we had no choice about no.1 we have no choise about no.2.

Kent
10-14-2008, 03:31 PM
Be careful there. Paul makes it quite clear that as Death came through the first Adam so Life has come through the second and just as we had no choice about no.1 we have no choise about no.2.

I'm confused. Who is to be careful, and about what? My question to you is; Do you believe in the doctrine of divine election, or not?
Your answer will help me understand where you are coming from.

Adrian Wainer
10-15-2008, 09:59 AM
Whoa the Devil is at Work in Australia


Muslim cleric: women incite men's lust with 'satanic dress'
By Miranda Devine
April 24, 2005
The Sun-Herald

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Muslim-cleric-women-incite-mens-lust-with-satanic-dress/2005/04/23/1114152362381.html

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer
10-20-2008, 04:05 PM
Intresting to seek a Christian Orthodox take on the devil

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/misc/evangelinidis_satan.htm

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

32Bravo
10-21-2008, 06:46 AM
Karl Marx believed religeon to eb the opium of the masses, but then he unaware of the Premier League.

http://www.premierleague.com/page/Home/0,,12306,00.html