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pdf27
09-04-2008, 02:56 PM
Split out of the "I want to dress up like a stormtrooper" thread at Egorka's request.


Besides according to some German exhortations to the troops ALL Soviet service men were presented as illegal fighters that unjustfully hold weapons in their arm.
I will dig the quote other day - too late now for that.

To be fair Igor the Germans weren't alone in publishing some fairly extreme propaganda...

The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited. We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day ... If you cannot kill your German with a bullet, kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another -- there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans killed by you. Kill the German -- that is your grandmother's request. Kill the German -- that is your child's prayer. Kill the German -- that is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through. Kill.

He does have rather a way with words, doesn't he?

Egorka
09-04-2008, 05:27 PM
To be fair Igor the Germans weren't alone in publishing some fairly extreme propaganda...Of course Germans were not alone...

He does have rather a way with words, doesn't he?
Where did you take your quote from Ehrenburg? From a revisionist's site (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p507_Weber.html)? ;)

This a very poor translation, as it mostly happenes when Ehrenburs essays are quoted.
The quote you presented is the conclusion of the essey "Kill!" It was published on 24 of July 1942 in the "Red Star" news paper. Just 3 days before the famous order 227 "Not one step backwards!" - time of the furtherst advance of German forces into the USSR's territory.
Here is the original in Russian: http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/ERENBURG/KILLHIM.HTM

Piculiarly no one is interested to know the first part of this essay. Let alone the the presented quote conviniently ommited first two and a half phrases from the last paragraph.



"Red Star", 24 of July 1942 (№173 [5236]).

Kill!
Here are fragments of three letters, found on the killed Germans:

The steward Reinhard writes to Lieutenant Otto to von Shiraq:

"Frenchmen were taken from us to the factory. I selected six Russians from the Minsk region. They are much more hardy than Frenchmen. Only one of them died, rest continued to work in the field and at the farm. Their maintenace costs nothing and we must not suffer from the fact that these beasts, whose children probably kill our soldiers, eat German bread. Yesterday I subjected two Russian rogues, who secretly devoured the skim milk, which was being intended for the pig wombs, to light flogging…"

Mateas Of Tsimlikh writes its brother corporal Heinrich Tsimlikh:
"In Leyden is a camp for the Russians, there it is possible to see them. Weapon they do not fear, but we with talk to them with the good old lash…"

Someone named Otto Essman writes Lieutenant Helmut Veygand:

"We here have captured Russians. These types devour rain worms on the area of airfield, they rush to eat from trash bucket. I saw, as they ate waste grass. And to think that these are - people…"

Slaveholders! They want to turn our people into the slaves. They export Russians, they taunt, to lead by hunger to folly, to the limit that dying people eat grass, worms, whereas dirty German with the rotten cigar in the teeth philosophizes: “Could these be people?”

We know everything. We remember everything. We understood: Germans are not people. From now on word “German” for us most terrible curse. From now on word “German” discharges gun. We will not speak. We will not be agitated. We will kill. If you did not kill in the day at least one German - your day wasted. If you think that your neighbor will kill German for you - you did not understand the menace. If you do not kill German - German will kill you. He will take your dear ones and he will torture them in his damned Germany. If you cannot kill German by bullet, kill German by bayonet. If your part of frontline is calm, if you wait battle, kill German even before battle begins. If you leave German to live, German will hang Russian person and will disgrace Russian woman. If you killed one German, kill another - there is nothing for us merrier than German corpses. Do not count days. Do not count miles you walked. Count just one: the Germans killed by you. Kill German! - an old mother appeal to you. Kill German! - this begs you child. Kill German! - this shouts your land. Do not miss. Do not let him pass. Kill!

Baisicly we can conclude that Ehrenburg was sort of a Soviet Harris. Harris which, we should "remember ... had to lead a bunch of young men facing fearful odds and get them to keep going despite this."

flamethrowerguy
09-04-2008, 05:38 PM
The german translation of Ehrenburgs infamous Kill!, Kill!, Kill! (убей!, убей!, убей!) -torrent of hatred is identical to the one pdf27 posted in english.

pdf27
09-04-2008, 05:42 PM
Where did you take your quote from Ehrenburg? From a revisionist's site (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p507_Weber.html)? ;)
If you read the sources, the source is listed as "Alfred de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_at_Potsdam) (London: Roudedge & Kegan Paul, 2nd edition, 1979), pp. 6546, 201; Erich Kern (ed.), Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: FZ- Verlag, 1988), pp. 260-61, 353-55."

Actually, reading that translation and yours there isn't very much different. "From now on word “German” discharges gun." means nothing in English, and is replaced by "strikes us to the quick" which has the meaning of affecting us deeply and strongly, so isn't a bad equivalent I guess. The only other one is that you have used the phrase "disgrace Russian woman" where that translation uses "rape a Russian woman" - I suspect the original meaning would have been understood as much the same.

But yeah, you're right to be suspicious of IHR. Revisionism can be a good thing when supported by evidence (e.g. John Terraine on WW1), but they're just being contrary to fit their pre-existing world view.

Egorka
09-05-2008, 02:33 AM
If you read the sources, the source is listed as "Alfred de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_at_Potsdam) (London: Roudedge & Kegan Paul, 2nd edition, 1979), pp. 6546, 201; Erich Kern (ed.), Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: FZ- Verlag, 1988), pp. 260-61, 353-55."
Yes, I have noticed too that IHR page reffers to Alfred de Zayas's "Nemesis at Potsdam". But it is not available on-line. If you Google the quote you will get just ONE hit from the whole mighty Interent - the IHR page.


Actually, reading that translation and yours there isn't very much different.
Ok. I guess I did not express myself properly. In this particular quote from "Kill!" it is not the translation that is the most important but the fact that it was taken absolutely out of context. Think about it even one of the phrases got choped in half. True, if one reads the quote as it is on the IHR page he gets an impession that the author instigates to eliminate Germans from face of the Earth.
Though if one takes trouble, as any one interested in a forum like ours should, to read the essay fully and learn about it#s context he will see that the impression is somewaht different.
Though, I personally do not like such flamboyant essays anyway.

Egorka
09-05-2008, 02:45 AM
The german translation of Ehrenburgs infamous Kill!, Kill!, Kill! (убей!, убей!, убей!) -torrent of hatred is identical to the one pdf27 posted in english.
To start with it was called "Kill!" Not triple - "Kill!, Kill!, Kill!"
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:DkT0e_GDuSOznM:http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/ERENBURG/EREN.GIF

Secondly, please see my previous response (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=133722#post133722) to pdf27 regarding identicity of translation.

Thirdly, what exactly you do not like here?
What in your mind is most unappropriate in this essay?
If you find it unappropriate than do you find it outstandigly unappropriate or on the line with other unappropriate materials of that time (which ones)?

Thanks in advance! :)

UPDATE: No wonder that the German translation of the quote from "Kill!" is identical to the presented English one. Even more, most likely, it was translated to the English from the German translation conducted under carefull Goebbels suppervision. ;)
Here is excerpt from German Wikipedia:



http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilja_Grigorjewitsch_Ehrenburg

Ehrenburgs flammende Propagandaartikel begannen oft mit Zitaten aus Fronttagebüchern und Briefen gefallener oder gefangengenommener deutscher Soldaten. Danach folgte meist ein kommentierender Teil, der schließlich in Kampfaufrufe gegen „die Hitleristen“ oder auch „den Deutschen“ mündete. Ein häufig zitiertes extremes Beispiel ist der Aufruf „Töte!“ (убей!) in der Krasnaja Swesda vom 24. Juli 1942. Der leicht gekürzte Text lautet in deutscher Übersetzung:[58]


Hier sind Auszüge aus drei Briefen, die bei getöteten Deutschen gefunden worden sind:
Der Inspektor Reinhardt schreibt an den Leutnant Otto Schirach: „… Ich habe sechs Russen aus dem Gebiet ausgesucht. Sie halten bei weitem mehr aus als die Franzosen. Nur einer von ihnen ist gestorben … Ihr Unterhalt kostet nichts und wir müssen nicht darunter leiden, dass diese Tiere, deren Kinder möglicherweise gerade unsere Soldaten töten, deutsches Brot essen. Gestern habe ich zwei russische Bestien leicht gezüchtigt, die heimlich Magermilch gesoffen haben, die für die Sauen bestimmt war …“
Irgendein Otto Essmann schreibt an den Leutnant Helmut Wiegand: „Wir haben jetzt russische Kriegsgefangene. Diese Typen fressen auf dem Flugplatz Regenwürmer und stürzen sich auf den Eimer mit Abwaschwasser. Ich habe gesehen, dass sie Unkraut gegessen haben. Kaum zu glauben, dass das Menschen sind …“
Sklavenhalter; sie möchten unser Volk versklaven. Sie schleppen die Russen zu sich nach Hause, misshandeln sie, bringen sie mit Hunger um den Verstand, bis dahin, dass sie Gras und Würmer essen, und dann philosophiert der widerwärtige Deutsche mit seiner stinkenden Zigarre: „Sind das vielleicht Menschen?“
Wir wissen alles. Wir erinnern uns an alles. Wir haben verstanden: Die Deutschen sind keine Menschen. Von nun an ist das Wort „Deutscher“ für uns wie ein entsetzlicher Fluch. Von jetzt an lässt das Wort „Deutscher“ das Gewehr von allein losgehen. Wir werden nichts sagen. Wir werden uns nicht empören. Wir werden töten. Wenn du nicht pro Tag wenigstens einen Deutschen getötet hast, war es ein verlorener Tag. … Wenn du den Deutschen nicht tötest, tötet er dich. Er nimmt deine Nächsten und quält sie in seinem verfluchten Deutschland. … Wenn du den Deutschen leben lässt, hängt er den russischen Mann auf und schändet die russische Frau. Wenn du einen Deutschen getötet hast, töte einen zweiten – nichts stimmt uns froher als deutsche Leichen. Zähle nicht die Tage. Zähle nicht die Werste. Zähle nur eins: die von dir getöteten Deutschen. Töte den Deutschen! bittet dich die alte Mutter. Töte den Deutschen! fleht dich das Kind an. Töte den Deutschen! schreit die Heimaterde. Ziel nicht vorbei. Triff nicht daneben. Töte!

flamethrowerguy
09-05-2008, 03:45 AM
To start with it was called "Kill!" Not triple - "Kill!, Kill!, Kill!"
Ehrenburg used the word "kill" twelve times in the summary pdf27 posted only. Please allow me to use it just three times when referring to this catchy little text.:)




Thirdly, what exactly you do not like here?
What in your mind is most unappropriate in this essay?
Personally I think the whole thing arose from a sick mind. Even Big Uncle Joe and his comrades in Moscow told Ehrenburg to shut the f**k up later on. If you actually DO like the harangue, it's time to see a shrink, that means Quick!, Quick!, Quick! (быстро!, быстро!, быстро!)


No wonder that the German translation of the quote from "Kill!" is identical to the presented English one. Even more, most likely, it was translated to the English from the German translation conducted under carefull Goebbels suppervision. ;)


I can hardly imagine the western allies did bank on a translation supervised by Goebbels, they should have had their own russian language translators!;)

Egorka
09-05-2008, 06:10 AM
Ehrenburg used the word "kill" twelve times in the summary pdf27 posted only.
It is not a summary. It is a misquoted pasage ripped of the context. Feel the difference!

Personally I think the whole thing arose from a sick mind.
Sick? Hardly. Unrestraint mind, evil mind maybe. But not sick. Sick implies some kind of insanity, some inconsequentional thinking. But the context shows that Ehrenburg's essays are very consequentual. This is of course if you make effort reading them fully. And not just swallow snippets where phrases get cut in halft essentially changing their meaning to almost opposite.

Even Big Uncle Joe and his comrades in Moscow told Ehrenburg to shut the f**k up later on.
Right. But that was 2,5 years later after "Kill!" was published!
And the disposition of the front turned 180 degrees. In summer 1942 Germans were aproaching Volga - Ehrenburg publishes "Kill!"
In March 1945 RKKA is approaching Berlin - Ehrenburg is dismissed.

You see no significense in this what so ever?

If you actually DO like the harangue, it's time to see a shrink, that means Quick!, Quick!, Quick! (быстро!, быстро!, быстро!)
I do not follow you on this one... Can you elaborate?

By the way, for a Russian it is an awkward feeling to hear from a German guy: "Schnell! Schnell! Schnell!" Kind of awakes subcontios fear. :)

I can hardly imagine the western allies did bank on a translation supervised by Goebbels, they should have had their own russian language translators!;)
Exactly what I want to say: A lot of this was translated to English from russian wrongly as well.
And a lot of these mistakes were also due to poor translation done by Soviet translator in the Soviet ambassy in London.
But it is hardly Ehrenburg's fault - he was writing in Russian language, but not German nor English.

pdf27
09-05-2008, 08:18 AM
In March 1945 RKKA is approaching Berlin - Ehrenburg is dismissed.
And this article (dated 14th March 1945) appears to be about the last one he wrote, entitled "Knights of Justice".

Yesterday I have received a letter from a man who is not alive now. There is a trace of blood in the letter. Officer Boris Antonovich Kurilko was killed in German land protecting the freedom and honor of our Motherland. His comrades passed his letter to me and I want the last words of Kurilko would be received by our readers like they were received by me. Here what the officer of Red Army wrote before his death:

“The flame of hatred supported us in the most severe days. Now we are in Germany. Our hatred leads us to Berlin. The Germans suppose we shall do in their land the same things as were done by the Germans in ours. These butchers can’t understand the greatness of a Soviet soldier. We shall be harsh but fair and it will be never when our people will abase themselves [to act like German buthers]….”

My heart is filling with pride when I am holding this piece of paper: the blood of the hero and the words written with blood – nice and noble words – are on it. We are winning the Fascism not only a battlefield; we are winning it in a moral battle between evil and good.

“Have the Russians poison gas-trucks like we have?” – A German-doctor asked me with a little fear. Smiling low he explained: “After all we see that you have everything…” I looked at him with much contempt. How can I explain to this savage having a degree that we have tanks, guns, planes, and also we have the thing that the modern Germans have no – we have conscience so we have no any poison gas-trucks?

When our soldiers spoke in the Volga coast: “Eye for eye” they didn’t think about the meaning of these words, they only wanted to show their inescapable hatred. There are people and there are cannibals. There are eyes and there are eyes. The Germans took children and stroke a tree with them. Any soldier of Red Army supposes a child is only a child. I saw how Soviet soldiers saved German children and we are not embarrassed of it, we are proud of it. Our hatred is not weaker in the result of it. The villains will not find neither leniency nor postponement. We are harsh but fair. We don’t know a myth of “blood quality” which was made-up by the epileptic German gefreitor. We arose in the country of Socialiasm. We remember about what Lenin dreamed. We are proud Stalin is not only the greatest military leader but also the first soldier of freedom, the first knight of justice. Germans burnt peasant houses while people were inside, tied old women to horses’ tales, behaved outrageously, tortured defenseless people, raped… No, we shall not be quits with them on such a manner! Our hatred is a noble feeling, it demands judge and not savage punishment, it demands penalty and not violence. The soldier of Red Army is a knight. He liberates Ukrainian girls and French POWs. He liberates the Poles and the Serbs. He kills Hitler’s soldiers but he doesn’t sneer at German old women. He is not a butcher or a rapist. We stay Soviet people in German land. We see German women who jeered at our girls still a little time ago. These German women are scared, obsequious, and lascivious. We are speaking: let they work themselves. Let those from them who are guilty in misdeeds will appear before our judge. But the Soviet soldier will not touch a woman. But the Soviet soldier will not jeer at a German woman or pay compliments to her – he is morally higher than her, he despises her for she was the wife of a butcher, for she has reared a monster of cruelty. The Soviet soldier will go by a German woman in silence as he has come in Germany not for loot, not for a concubine, he has came in Germany for justice. He has come not to look on the foolish and greedy doll but to tame Germany.

It is not a good to quote me myself but I’ll repeat here the poetry that was written by me almost 3 years ago when the German army rushed from Oskol to Voronezh:

It will be a day and it will be inexorable
When harsh columns of our soldiers
Finished their soldiers’ job
Will go along streets of captured Berlin.
They will be protected with their greatness
From spite and flattery of beaten Germans
They will disturb the silence
With neither joke nor merry song.
Looked on those alien streets,
On their tinsel of houses and fances,
One soldier will recall destroyed Kiev,
Another one – undefeated Leningrad.
No they will not forget what was earlier
And their hearts will say “Be silent” to everyone
A harsh drummer will drop his hands
And the trumpet-player will not play in their trumpets.
Oh, how it is empty in their robber’s home!
And only crooked Prussian eagles,
Heavy from old blood,
Will not stop to suck their pounces in stone Valkyries.

We are not in Berlin yet but we shall be there soon. And we see and tinsel of houses, and spite and flattery of beaten Germans, and harsh silence of a Soviet soldier in the captured German towns. He, a defender of Stalingrad, a soldier of Yelnia, Rzhev, and Sevastopol, didn’t forget anything. He is silent because he is higher than Germans; he is higher not according his “blood” – let the low “Arians” only will use their low fiction – he is higher with his consciousness, conscience, and heart. He is silent because he despise the Germans, their tinsel, their goods and chattels, their banners, their newspapers, their women, their yesterday's conceit and today’s obsequiousness. He has come here not as a revenger, he has come here as a judge.

Every feeling has its form. Hatred also has its form. Our hatred is not an animal spite. It is not an outbreak of anger. Our hatred is a ripe feeling, it is connected with our consciousness, it corresponds with our ideas. We hate Fascism and we swear that we not to leave a stone standing from the “new order”. We hate a robber’s spirit of Germany and we swear that the barracks where future conqueror arose will not exist more. We swear that the plants where the “Tigers” and “V”-missiles were produced, and the headquarters where the plans to conquer the World were made-up will not exist more. We hate evil and we swear that no one German who killed children and burnt peaceful villages will avoid fair punishment. A large feeling needs large deeds, and our hatred will be directed not against German old people or children but on German state, nest of robbery and evil.

The word of “knight” sounded in different way in different time and in different languages. The ancestors of the Hitlerites who also tortured other peoples also called themselves “knights”. But as we see it a knight is a defender of justice, protector of the weak, and an enemy of the offenders. It was spoken about the best people: “A knight without any scare and reproach”. Red Army has became such a knight of XX Century. The words of an officer of Red Army, signed by his blood are words of the whole our army, and the victory of our army is not only its victory but it is victory of Human.
Again, may be a slightly dodgy translation. However, if this is indeed his last article and he was banned for writing it then that puts a slightly different complexion on things - Ehrenburg was clearly calling for German civvies to be treated well in this, and for the Red Army to behave to a far higher standard than the Germans ever did.

Krad42
09-05-2008, 09:26 AM
And this article (dated 14th March 1945) appears to be about the last one he wrote, entitled "Knights of Justice".

Again, may be a slightly dodgy translation. However, if this is indeed his last article and he was banned for writing it then that puts a slightly different complexion on things - Ehrenburg was clearly calling for German civvies to be treated well in this, and for the Red Army to behave to a far higher standard than the Germans ever did.

Which they really didn't!!! So, obviously they didn't heed his advice if that was his meaning. It was very obvious to everyone that there was a difference between regions occupied by the British and the Americans, and regions occupied by Russia. IMO, there was never much difference between Germany and Russia. They treated each other in barbaric ways throughout the war.

Egorka
09-05-2008, 10:29 AM
And this article (dated 14th March 1945) appears to be about the last one he wrote, entitled "Knights of Justice".
I presume it is translation made by Andery from Armchair General forum: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=522738&postcount=2
Right?
Anyway, I could not find the Russian original of this article so far... In any case it was not the last one he wrote. The one "Enough! (http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=524548&postcount=25)" from 9 of April 1945 was the last one before the "attack" on him. He also continued to write after the war.


Again, may be a slightly dodgy translation. However, if this is indeed his last article and he was banned for writing it then that puts a slightly different complexion on things - Ehrenburg was clearly calling for German civvies to be treated well in this, and for the Red Army to behave to a far higher standard than the Germans ever did.
That is the point. Ehrenburg never openly called for revenge towards civilian Germans. F.ex. his article "Kill!" is from 1942 and has nothing to do with German civilians.
But!!!
You see, Ehrenburg was a writer, an intelectual. But his public was not. It takes sertain effort to read his articles and understand them.
IMO it is likely that considerable number of ordinary RKKA soldiers could get an opposite message from the Ehrenburg's articles. To my taste they are too emotional, too flamboyant.

My point is that it is much easier to blame (in this case Ehrenburg) than to try to see the relationships in a complex event.

flamethrowerguy
09-05-2008, 07:20 PM
Ehrenburg never openly called for revenge towards civilian Germans. F.ex. his article "Kill!" is from 1942 and has nothing to do with German civilians.

"Kill, brave soldiers of the Red Army, kill! There is nothing innocent about the germans. Follow the orders of comrade Stalin and pestle the fascistic animal in its cave. Break with violence the racial haughtiness of the germanic women, take them as your legitimate prey. Kill, brave soldiers of the Red Army, kill!" Since I translated this with my limited abilites I hope I haven't taken too much out of the context here again.


In summer 1942 Germans were aproaching Volga - Ehrenburg publishes "Kill!". In March 1945 RKKA is approaching Berlin - Ehrenburg is dismissed.
So what? It seems to be a habit in the former Soviet Union to drop someone like a hot potato once he served his purpose: Ehrenburg, Stalin, Schukow, Chruschtschow, Beria....


By the way, for a Russian it is an awkward feeling to hear from a German guy: "Schnell! Schnell! Schnell!" Kind of awakes subcontios fear.

Come on, I was born in 1972 and I’m sure you were born after 1945 as well. No need for Germanophobia. At least I don’t get an awkward feeling hearing “Ubej!” or "Dawai!, Dawai!" although I am a Cold War child who used to check the skies for Sputniks at night with my friends.:mrgreen:

Egorka
09-06-2008, 07:15 AM
"Kill, brave soldiers of the Red Army, kill! There is nothing innocent about the germans. Follow the orders of comrade Stalin and pestle the fascistic animal in its cave. Break with violence the racial haughtiness of the germanic women, take them as your legitimate prey. Kill, brave soldiers of the Red Army, kill!" Since I translated this with my limited abilites I hope I haven't taken too much out of the context here again.

He-he... Excellent example! May I ask
1. Who wrote this?
2. What is the source of your quote?

flamethrowerguy
09-06-2008, 07:17 AM
He-he... Excellent example! May I ask
1. Who wrote this?
2. What is the source of your quote?

Well, I didn't. Too sophisticated for me.
"Ehrenbuch des deutschen Soldaten" by Walther Dahl, 1985

Egorka
09-06-2008, 08:12 AM
Well, I didn't. Too sophisticated for me.
"Ehrenbuch des deutschen Soldaten" by Walther Dahl, 1985i know you did not make it up, my friend.

Does Walther Dahl writes about the context of this quote? Does not he mention when it was published, how it was used during war, as well as the comotion about this famous passage after the war?

flamethrowerguy
09-06-2008, 08:21 AM
i know you did not make it up, my friend.

Does Walther Dahl writes about the context of this quote? Does not he mention when it was published, how it was used during war, as well as the comotion about this famous passage after the war?

No, unfortunately not. It's just mentioned as one of the about 3000 (!?!)effusions of Ehrenburg.

Egorka
09-06-2008, 08:28 AM
No, unfortunately not. It's just mentioned as one of the about 3000 (!?!)effusions of Ehrenburg.I am answering from my mobile and it is very inconvinient to write long texts.
I will write later what I know about this quote you posted.

flamethrowerguy
09-06-2008, 04:01 PM
I am answering from my mobile and it is very inconvinient to write long texts.
I will write later what I know about this quote you posted.

Mobile with internet access? I wish I had one...capitalist!:mrgreen:

Egorka
09-09-2008, 08:09 AM
"Kill, brave soldiers of the Red Army, kill! There is nothing innocent about the germans. Follow the orders of comrade Stalin and pestle the fascistic animal in its cave. Break with violence the racial haughtiness of the germanic women, take them as your legitimate prey. Kill, brave soldiers of the Red Army, kill!" Since I translated this with my limited abilites I hope I haven't taken too much out of the context here again.
Hi!
Have been very busy. Still is... Writing from the work office...

Ok. What do I know about it?
To start with let's listen to what Ilya Ehrenburg has himself to say about this in his book "People, Years and Life" (russian version (http://www.pseudology.org/Literature/Erenburg/51.htm)).



http://www.perevod.it/elkost/images/ehrenburg_PYL9_resize.jpg
http://www.perevod.it/elkost/images/ehrenburg_PYL9_resize.jpg

I will tell about one history, connected with myself, but which falls outside the scope of just my personal life.

In 1944 commander of army group "Nord", desiring to raise its soldiers, discouraged by retreat, wrote in his order: «Ilya Ehrenburg calls the Asians of "to drink blood" of German women. Ilya Ehrenburg requires that the Asian peoples would rape the German women: "Take blond women - this is our military booty!" Ilya Ehrenburg awakes the low instincts of steppe. It would be despicable to step back now, since German soldiers now protect their wives ». After learning about this order, I immediately wrote into "Red Star" news paper: «Once Germans counterfeited the documents of state importance. Now they counterfeited my articles. The quotations, which the German General attributes to me, give out the author - only German is capable to compose similar dirty thing. We go to Germany for something else: for Germany itself».

The legend, created by Hitler's General, survived the fall the third Reich, and Nuremberg process, and much other. In 1960 the municipality of Vienna invited me to participate in the literary conference.
Soon after this I received a letter from the conference organizer, an Austrian social democrat. In the letter he asked me, if it was true, that during the years of war I issued a called to rape German women. West German magazine "Spiegel" elucidated, that "documentation" on my terrible past were presented to the public by the embassy of German Federative Republic. And recently Mr.Kindler from Munich, the publisher of the German translation of my book "People, years, Life", passed me those amusing photo documents.

Apparently, someone called Jurgen Torvald published in Stuttgart in 1950 the history of the war, in which he wrote: «Ilya Ehrenburg openly and full of hatred in the course of three years, was telling the Red Army soldiers that that the German women will be their spoils of war.» It appeared that Jurgen Torvalds real name is Heintz Bogarts, who published in 1941 a book in which he praised Hitler and whic was dedicated to the war criminal Admiral Erich Raeder.

In 1962 the Munich newspaper "Soldaten zeitung" began campaign against the publication of my book in West Germany. Of course newspaper recollected about the fake leaflet with the call to rape German women; it threatened the publisher, and called me "greatest criminal in the world history ". Some writers as, for example, Ernst Yunger, supported this Fascist press. Others, however, were agitated. Kindler proved that Torvald repeated Goebbels's lie; and nevertheless revanchists still continue to repeat: "Memoirs of killer and rapist". I repeat - the matter not in me. But among fifty million victims of the Second World War one can not be found - the Fascism itself.


Ok. That is what Ehrenburg says him self. Let’s say he is biased...
But I heard from others that

In 1961 the Bavarian state library issued proclamation where declared that the text of the leaflet (with the discussed quote) distributed among the right extremists has never been published in "Pravda" newspaper.
in 1996 the Munchen Institute of Modern History issued expert conclusion that:
"Even though Ehrenburg was heavily involved in propaganda warfare, we have to highlight that there have not been found any proof that Ehrenburg has been author of the leaflet with call to consider German women as legal spoils of war.
...
We also know nothing of existence of such leaflet in Russian."
The last 2 facts should be described in the two following articles:
„Die Vereinfachungen des Genossen Еrenburg“ by Carola Tischler.
„Ubej!“ by Bernhard Fisch.

Egorka
09-09-2008, 08:14 AM
Would it be possible for admins to put the Ehrenburg related posts into a new thread, pleqase?
:)
Thanks!

UPD: Thanks, pdf27! :)

flamethrowerguy
09-09-2008, 10:27 AM
I read about the ominous leaflet too lately. There is indeed no evidence for its existence.
After all one has to ask himself, was it necessary to mention Ehrenburg anyway in the late war stage after all what happened e. g. at Nemmersdorf?

Both Fisch and Tischler are communists in disguise.;)

Egorka, I will have to go to the hospital by tomorrow morning for some ankle surgery. Let's discuss this matter further when I am back. I'll let you know!

Egorka
09-10-2008, 10:00 AM
After all one has to ask himself, was it necessary to mention Ehrenburg anyway in the late war stage after all what happened e.g. at Nemmersdorf?
Well, apparently it was necessary for Goebbels to mention Ehrenburg. In a way it was one of Ehrenbug's aim to scary the German public and he succeeded. I would not call this intention of his outright despicable - war is war.

Nemmersdorf is an interesting subject. Please tell what in your opinion is most realistic description of events there.


Both Fisch and Tischler are communists in disguise.;)
Does it make any difference in regards of them citating Munchen Institute of Modern History. Well I do not care if they are communists. I would not care even if they were nazist as far as they do not bland their political preferences in their work.


Egorka, I will have to go to the hospital by tomorrow morning for some ankle surgery. Let's discuss this matter further when I am back. I'll let you know!
Good luck! Get well!

flamethrowerguy
09-13-2008, 04:00 PM
Firstly, Igor, thanx for the get-well wishes, I returned much earlier as expected, thanks to modern medicine.


Nemmersdorf is an interesting subject. Please tell what in your opinion is most realistic description of events there.

Well, the facts first. Nemmersdorf in East Prussia was conquered by the Red Army on October 21, 1944 (2nd Battalion/25th Guard Tank Brigade). After heavy fightings the village was re-captured by the Wehrmacht.
Here we have already two different versions: eyewitnesses report Nemmersdorf was re-taken the same day, only a couple of hours later. Official reports say german 5th Panzer-Division took the village two days later on October 23.
What happened exactly we will never know. Fact is that
a) the russian soldiers killed between 23 and 65 german civilians (women, kids and old people) as well as some french POWs
b) the Nazi leadership exploited the incident to stiffen the resistance against the advancing Red Army.
It was reported of mass rapes, mass killings, crucified women on barn doors etc. Other (german) sources say there weren't any rapes at all. Goebbels' employees lifted skirts and lowered underwear of the dead women.
B. Fisch's version of disguised germans in russian uniforms to commit the massacre is an insolence though IMHO.

Chevan
09-14-2008, 11:56 PM
To be fair Igor the Germans weren't alone in publishing some fairly extreme propaganda...

But do you even know pdf, that Ilia Erenburg was a JEW.
And as any Jew probably can't be loyal to the Germans who like the Nicis jew-hate matter at that time.
Yes he wrote a anti-germans articles in Pravda, but this was happend AFTER the mass- murdering of Jews in Kiev, Odessa and ets.

Chevan
09-15-2008, 12:20 AM
Ok. What do I know about it?
To start with let's listen to what Ilya Ehrenburg has himself to say about this in his book "People, Years and Life" (russian version (http://www.pseudology.org/Literature/Erenburg/51.htm)).

Ok. That is what Ehrenburg says him self. Let’s say he is biased...
But I heard from others that

In 1961 the Bavarian state library issued proclamation where declared that the text of the leaflet (with the discussed quote) distributed among the right extremists has never been published in "Pravda" newspaper.
in 1996 the Munchen Institute of Modern History issued expert conclusion that:
"Even though Ehrenburg was heavily involved in propaganda warfare, we have to highlight that there have not been found any proof that Ehrenburg has been author of the leaflet with call to consider German women as legal spoils of war.
...
We also know nothing of existence of such leaflet in Russian."
The last 2 facts should be described in the two following articles:
„Die Vereinfachungen des Genossen Еrenburg“ by Carola Tischler.
„Ubej!“ by Bernhard Fisch.

Mate i think this is not so importaint what Erenberd said after the war.
He was a SPOKESMAN of Anti-Germans propogand in USSR.He was in head of propogand.
This is FACT.
But who have to blame him?
Germans , who despised and hate all the Jews during the ww2?
What did they hope on?
The Soviet Jew Erenburg will share the "Love and peace" toward the GErmans?
This is senseless question, right.
P.S.
For god sake.
Why have you to defend Erenburg mate.
He was as much "russian" as you or me the "Mongol's looking boslcshevics" from Goebbels posters:)

pdf27
09-15-2008, 01:25 AM
Uh... Ehrenburg was French, rather than Soviet - at least by extraction.

Chevan
09-15-2008, 01:35 AM
No, he was born in Kiev. In jewish family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Ehrenburg

Ehrenburg was a revolutionary as a teenager, a disenchanted poet in his youth, writing Catholic poems despite his Jewish background, a follower of Lenin on arrival in Paris, who then became an anti-Bolshevik and sensitive journalist.

Later he returned to Russia where he was hired to write Soviet propaganda, while occasionally defending his views with boldness against Stalin or government mouthpieces. He a was prominent member of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee.
He was a prominent bright writer, , although since the 1945 in soviet press his "fierce ani-germanism" has been seriously critized and attacked.

Egorka
09-17-2008, 10:29 AM
Firstly, Igor, thanx for the get-well wishes, I returned much earlier as expected, thanks to modern medicine.



Well, the facts first. Nemmersdorf in East Prussia was conquered by the Red Army on October 21, 1944 (2nd Battalion/25th Guard Tank Brigade). After heavy fightings the village was re-captured by the Wehrmacht.
Here we have already two different versions: eyewitnesses report Nemmersdorf was re-taken the same day, only a couple of hours later. Official reports say german 5th Panzer-Division took the village two days later on October 23.
What happened exactly we will never know. Fact is that
a) the russian soldiers killed between 23 and 65 german civilians (women, kids and old people) as well as some french POWs
b) the Nazi leadership exploited the incident to stiffen the resistance against the advancing Red Army.
It was reported of mass rapes, mass killings, crucified women on barn doors etc. Other (german) sources say there weren't any rapes at all. Goebbels' employees lifted skirts and lowered underwear of the dead women.
B. Fisch's version of disguised germans in russian uniforms to commit the massacre is an insolence though IMHO.

Reply is here:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=134655#post134655

flamethrowerguy
10-10-2008, 08:54 AM
Just an impression from modern Germany: the "Ilja-Ehrenburg-Straße" in Rostock/North-Eastern Germany.
The road sign gets overpainted from time to time.

http://a3.blogsport.de/images/iljastr4.JPG