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SS Ouche-Vittes
08-29-2008, 09:56 PM
Hi I'm interested in buying a SS outfit:cool:. What are the contents that make up the outfit or at least the exposed stuff. I want the combat outfit not the one for formal meetings. what do i first buy?:confused: Any good web sites? this is the best i think: http://www.zeugmeisterei.com

Moreheaddriller
08-30-2008, 09:49 PM
So are you getting ss stuff to be in reenactments?

pdf27
08-31-2008, 02:37 PM
Why the hell do reenactors always want to be in either "Elite" units or those particularly associated with war crimes. What's wrong with the 2973rd Independent Saniation Company?

SS Ouche-Vittes
09-01-2008, 10:20 AM
I'm not a reenactor pdf27. I want to have an ss uniform because thier outfit is very modern. The peadot camo I think is a pretext to the modern digital camo. I don't like the regular german grey coats. The next outfit i would want is the german medic outfit.

pdf27
09-01-2008, 11:01 AM
So you aren't even a reenactor but want to dress up like a war criminal anyway? It's hardly the only modern cammo in WW2 in any case - USMC helmet covers and British Denison smocks spring to mind...

flamethrowerguy
09-01-2008, 11:36 AM
So you aren't even a reenactor but want to dress up like a war criminal anyway? It's hardly the only modern cammo in WW2 in any case - USMC helmet covers and British Denison smocks spring to mind...

Running around in a Waffen-SS uniform these days is one thing...a moderator on a WW2 forum calling a group of about a million soldiers collective "war criminals" is another...

pdf27
09-01-2008, 12:26 PM
Prosecution summing up at Nuremberg:

It is the prosecution's contention that the SS, as defined in Appendix B of the Indictment, was unlawful. Its participation in every phase of the conspiracy alleged in Count One is clear. As an organization founded on the principle that persons of "German blood" were a "master race," it exemplified a, basic Nazi doctrine. It served as one of the means through which the conspirators acquired control of the German government. The operations of the SD, and of the SS Totenkopf Verbaende in concentration camps, were means used by the conspirators to secure their regime and terrorize their opponents as alleged in Count One. All components of the SS were involved from the very beginning in the Nazi program of Jewish extermination. Through the Allgemeine SS as a para-military organization, the SS Verfuegungstruppe and SS Totenkopf Verbaende as profes- sional combat forces, and the Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle as a fifth column agency, it participated in preparations for aggressive war, and, through its militarized units,. in the seizure of Austria, the invasion of Czechoslovakia, the attack on Poland, and the waging of aggressive war in the West and in the East, as set forth in Counts One and Two of the Indictment. In the course of such war, all components of the SS had a part in the war crimes and crimes against humanity, set forth in Counts Three and Four,-the murder and ill treatment of civilian populations in occupied terri-tory, the murder and ill treatment of prisoners of war, and the Germanization of occupied territories.

The evidence has shown that the SS was a single enterprise- a unified organization. Some of its functions were, of course, per-formed by one branch or department or office, some by another. No single branch or department participated in every phase of its activity. But every branch and department and office was necessary to the functioning of the whole. The situation is much the same as in the case of the individual defendants at the bar. Not all participated in every act of the conspiracy ; but all per-formed a contributing part in the whole criminal scheme.

The evidence has shown, not only that the SS was an organization of volunteers but that applicants had to meet the strictest standards of selection. It was not easy to become an SS member. That was true of all branches of the SS. During the course of the war, as the demands for manpower increased and the losses of the Waffen SS grew heavier and heavier, there were occasions when men drafted for compulsory military service were assigned to units of the Waffen SS rather than to the Wehrmacht. Those instances were relatively few. Evidence of recruiting standards of the Waffen SS in 1943 has shown that membership in that branch was as essentially voluntary and highly selective as in other branches. The fact that some individuals may have been arbi-trarily assigned to some Waffen SS unit has no bearing on the issue before the tribunal, which is this, whether the SS was or was not an unlawful organization. Doubtless some of the members of the SS, or of other of the organizations alleged to be unlawful, might desire to show that their participation in the organization was small or innocuous, that compelling reasons drove them to apply for membership, that they were not fully conscious of its aims, or that they were mentally irresponsible when they became members. Such facts might or might not be relevant if they were on trial. But in any event this is not the forum to try out such matters.

The question before this Tribunal is simply this, whether the SS was or was not an unlawful organization. The evidence has fully shown what the aims and activities of the SS were. Some of these aims were stated in publications. The activities were so widespread and so notorious, covering so many fields of unlawful endeavor, that the illegality of the organization could not have been concealed. It was a notorious fact, and Himmler himself admitted that in 1936, when he said:

"I know that there are people in Germany now who become sick when they see these black coats. We know the reason and we don't expect to be loved by too many."

It was at all times the exclusive function and purpose of the SS to carry out the common objectives of the conspirators, Its activities in carrying out those functions involved the commission of the crimes defined in Article 6 of the Charter. By reason of its aims and the means used for the accomplishment thereof, the SS should be declared a criminal organization in accordance with Article 9 of the Charter.

pdf27
09-01-2008, 12:30 PM
And the judgement:

"The SS was utilized for purposes which were criminal under the Charter involving the persecution and extermination of the Jews, brutalities and killings in concentration camps, excesses in the administration of the occupied territories, the administration of the slave labor program and the mistreatment and murder of prisoners of war.....In dealing with the SS the Tribunal includes all persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS including the members of the Allgemeine SS, members of the Waffen SS, members of the SS Totenkoph Verbaende, and the members of any of the different police forces who were members of the SS.

The Tribunal declares to be criminal within the meaning of the Charter the group composed of those persons who had been officially accepted as members of the SS as enumerated in the preceding paragraph who became or remained members of the organization with knowledge that it was being used for the commission of acts declared criminal by Article 6 of the Charter, or who were personally implicated as members of the organization in the commission of such crimes, excluding, however, those who were drafted into membership by the State in such a way as to give them no choice in the matter, and who had committed no such crimes. The basis of this finding is the participation of the organization in War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity connected with the war; this group declared criminal cannot include, therefore, persons who had ceased to belong to the organizations enumerated in the proceeding paragraph prior to 1 September 1939."
Therefore, anybody who was voluntarily a member of any part of the SS after the first of September 1939 was a war criminial.

ptimms
09-01-2008, 12:41 PM
He might be a conscripted man.

Seriously I had never spotted that before. If you proved you were conscripted in you were in the clear ? How would this apply to transfers. i.e. Luftwaffe ground crew transferred into Leibstandarte ? Or a lot of the ethnic divisions ? There were regular army units pushed into 36th SS Dirlewanger when it acheived divisional status?

pdf27
09-01-2008, 12:50 PM
Seriously I had never spotted that before. If you proved you were conscripted in you were in the clear ? How would this apply to transfers. i.e. Luftwaffe ground crew transferred into Leibstandarte ? Or a lot of the ethnic divisions ? There were regular army units pushed into 36th SS Dirlewanger when it acheived divisional status?
Correct - you had to have voluntarily been a member of the SS after the 1st of September 1939 to commit the crime of membership of an illegal organisation. A good example of an IMT judgement on this can be found here (http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/trials/graf.html), in the case of Matthias Graf.
It should be noted however that conscription is not a general excuse for war crimes, rather it means you cannot be convicted of membership of an illegal organisation. As pointed out in the prosecution closing arguments, however, the majority of SS members were volunteers of one sort or another.

flamethrowerguy
09-01-2008, 01:30 PM
And the judgement:

Therefore, anybody who was voluntarily a member of any part of the SS after the first of September 1939 was a war criminial.

Uhm, in Germany there's this naughty term especially used by the right fraction, that's why I normally don't use it. It's called "victor's justice".

Nickdfresh
09-01-2008, 01:33 PM
Uhm, in Germany there's this naughty term especially used by the right fraction, that's why I normally don't use it. It's called "victor's justice".

I don't totally agree with either side in this debate. And I can see valid arguments for both. But having said that, there wasn't a hell of a lot of "justice" afforded by the defeated in their occupied spheres of control...

flamethrowerguy
09-01-2008, 01:39 PM
I don't totally agree with either side in this debate. And I can see valid arguments for both. But having said that, there wasn't a hell of a lot of "justice" afforded by the defeated in their occupied spheres of control...

Yup, but I learned we have been liberated from the evil, and the liberators were the good ones. Furthermore, since when is a common grunt part of the judiciary?

pdf27
09-01-2008, 03:36 PM
Uhm, in Germany there's this naughty term especially used by the right fraction, that's why I normally don't use it. It's called "victor's justice".
A justice which the victors have applied equally to themselves (if imperfectly) in the years since. If you think the SS was declared an illegal organisation purely because it was politically associated with a the ruling faction of a defeated state you're off your rocker. As the prosecution closing arguments I posted clearly posit, they were declared an illegal organisation for their participation at all levels in a huge number of what are universally recognised as crimes - most notably mass murder.

flamethrowerguy
09-01-2008, 04:40 PM
A justice which the victors have applied equally to themselves (if imperfectly) in the years since.

Imperfectly? Well, that's a hell of an understatement. They even built a statue for Bomber Harris in 1992 as far as I recall!


As the prosecution closing arguments I posted clearly posit, they were declared an illegal organisation for their participation at all levels in a huge number of what are universally recognised as crimes - most notably mass murder.

No objection concerning the reasons (war crimes and crimes against humanity). "Where's much light, there's much shade", former members of the Waffen-SS said about themselves retrospectively. Take the 2nd SS "Das Reich" as an example regarded as the probably most capable Waffen-SS division. War crimes? Yes, Oradour of course. A terrible war crime committed by one company. One out of 70 in that particular division, still it makes an outfit of about 15000 bloodthirsty psychopaths. Just one example. Oh, why again wasn't the Red Army declared an illegal organisation? Katyn occured before the Waffen-SS really got started.

In one of my books there's printed a document of modern Germany's first Federal Chancellor Dr. Konrad Adenauer sent to Generaloberst a. D. Paul Hausser. Therein he declares that his formal apology of the Wehrmacht soldiers (in front of the Bundestag on December 3 1952) included dependants of the Waffen-SS as well since they exclusively fought honourably for Germany. In my opinion (surely not in yours) the words of this honourable man count more than those of the whole Nuremberg prosecutor posse.

BTW, why do you think why reenactors all over the world (but Germany) pick a Waffen-SS uniform of all things? Are all of these guys potential mass murderers? Or is it admiration for a military elite unit (talking early and mid war here)?

pdf27
09-01-2008, 06:09 PM
Imperfectly? Well, that's a hell of an understatement. They even built a statue for Bomber Harris in 1992 as far as I recall!
Actually, I was thinking of Lt Calley's risibly small sentence after committing a crime rather similar to that of the SS and Wehrmacht at My Lai. If you want to claim bombing as a war crime, then you've got to both overturn quite a lot of established case law (Hague convention, etc. - the proportionality tests that are currently part of the Geneva conventions/protocols were so far as I'm aware first applied in the 1948 convention) as well as add quite a lot of crimes to your own side (starting with Guernica, and moving on through Rotterdam, Belgrade, etc. Belgrade was of course attacked without a declaration of war, which IIRC is perfidy, a war crime in itself).


War crimes? Yes, Oradour of course. A terrible war crime committed by one company. One out of 70 in that particular division, still it makes an outfit of about 15000 bloodthirsty psychopaths. Just one example.
Oradour is the best known because it was in France. Das Reich spent most of it's time in the East, where war crimes were practically standard operating procedure for the Wehrmacht/SS.


Oh, why again wasn't the Red Army declared an illegal organisation? Katyn occured before the Waffen-SS really got started.
Katyn was the NKVD, not the Red Army. And the Western Allies had no evidence which would stand up in court to prove their culpability - something emphatically not true for the SS.


Therein he declares that his formal apology of the Wehrmacht soldiers (in front of the Bundestag on December 3 1952) included dependants of the Waffen-SS as well since they exclusively fought honourably for Germany. In my opinion (surely not in yours) the words of this honourable man count more than those of the whole Nuremberg prosecutor posse.
Correct. The number of German soldiers (mainly in the East) who fought honourably is very limited indeed. Those who fought in the west largely but not exclusively followed the laws and customs of war (as C Coy 2 Bn Royal Norfolks found out in 1940).
I can find it credible that Adenauer believed that German soldiers had by and large fought honorably - their behaviour in the East was not widely known or talked about, and is hardly the sort of thing one would want to believe your own people would do. However, I do NOT find it credible that he knew what was going on better than the IMT at Nuremberg.


BTW, why do you think why reenactors all over the world (but Germany) pick a Waffen-SS uniform of all things? Are all of these guys potential mass murderers? Or is it admiration for a military elite unit (talking early and mid war here)?
The baptismal promises of the Catholic church include a statement rejecting "the glamour of evil". I think that's deeply perceptive, and very relevant in this case.

mrongosajeg
09-02-2008, 07:24 AM
well any design shirt from SS?

I want to has one ..and made ny my own..please help!

flamethrowerguy
09-02-2008, 10:24 AM
If you want to claim bombing as a war crime, then you've got to both overturn quite a lot of established case law (Hague convention, etc. - the proportionality tests that are currently part of the Geneva conventions/protocols were so far as I'm aware first applied in the 1948 convention) as well as add quite a lot of crimes to your own side (starting with Guernica, and moving on through Rotterdam, Belgrade, etc. Belgrade was of course attacked without a declaration of war, which IIRC is perfidy, a war crime in itself)..

OK, you convinced me. "Carpet bombings" may not be that bad after all, even the already named Bomber Harris said: "In spite of all what happened in Hamburg, bombing remains a relatively humane measure".........
-Guernica was a misdrop due to bad sight, disadvantageous winds and crappy aiming devices of the JU52 (!) bombers of the still unexperienced german Luftwaffe. The actual target of the attack were bridges and street crossings eastwards of Guernica. Any civilian victim is one too much, but the Guernica air raid caused the death of 226 people, so it was not by far the mass terror bombing enemy- especially communist voices tried to make it.
-Rotterdam was a defended town, the city centrum was packed with strongholds. The only german units fighting in the town were some paratroopers, since own artillery was not available they called in the airstrike as "vertical artillery" (not my term). Article 25 of the Hague Convention says it's forbidden to attack or shell UNDEFENDED towns, villages and homeplaces. Rotterdam lost this status since defended by the dutch army.
-Belgrade was attacked without declaration of war, right. As I said I can't and don't want to justify everything committed by Germany. But IIRC there was an attack of the RAF the very next day after the Belgrade bombings hitting the town of Sofia/Bulgaria. This attack was described as an act of reprisal by the UK itself.


Oradour is the best known because it was in France. Das Reich spent most of it's time in the East, where war crimes were practically standard operating procedure for the Wehrmacht/SS.

Oh, now it's the Wehrmacht as well. Man, that's a tough one. I now have to handle that I actually descending from a bunch of war criminals since every male member of my family with the fitting age served in the Wehrmacht. Seriously: "war crimes were practically standard operating procedure", that's as cheap as it is wishy-washy.



Katyn was the NKVD, not the Red Army. And the Western Allies had no evidence which would stand up in court to prove their culpability - something emphatically not true for the SS.

The NKVD wasn't called an illegal organisation at Nuremberg either, right? In place of Katyn I give you Nemmersdorf or hundreds of other east-prussian, silesian, pommeranian, hungarian villages for the Red Army...
No evidence for Katyn which would stand up in court to prove their culpability? Well, what evidence DID they need. What about the statements of the commission of 12 foreign official medicolegal expert from all over Europe plus an unknown number of british and american POWs as well as several members of the polish Red Cross? All these people have been "in situ" on invitation/request of the german government to prove that the killings actually took place in 1940 meaning under soviet domain. Honestly, the IMT hadn't the balls to accuse Uncle Joe and his clique for anything!


The number of German soldiers (mainly in the East) who fought honourably is very limited indeed. Those who fought in the west largely but not exclusively followed the laws and customs of war (as C Coy 2 Bn Royal Norfolks found out in 1940).

Ah, this is generalizing crap again. You're discrediting millions of decent front soldiers here. But WTF, they were only "krauts", right?!? Do you think there was some kind of selection by the Wehrmacht leadership like "good guys westwards, bad guys eastwards"???
"Le Paradis" was a flawless war crime and the CO, SS-Obersturmführer Fritz Knöchlein, got what he deserved in 1948.



I can find it credible that Adenauer believed that German soldiers had by and large fought honorably - their behaviour in the East was not widely known or talked about, and is hardly the sort of thing one would want to believe your own people would do. However, I do NOT find it credible that he knew what was going on better than the IMT at Nuremberg.

I am sure as a former concentration camp inmate (cologne fair grounds) Adenauer thought nothing but the best of the Wehrmacht and the Third Reich without forming his own picture of things. Surely, the IMT at Nuremberg was impeccable...but how bout this little differences in the Jodl judgement? Didn't one of their own call it a miscarriage (french judge Henri Donnedieu de Vabres)?



The baptismal promises of the Catholic church include a statement rejecting "the glamour of evil". I think that's deeply perceptive, and very relevant in this case.

Why did I just know you'd come up with that? I will immediately start searching the net for any NKVD-, Khmer Rouge- or Manson Family-reenactor groups.

ptimms
09-02-2008, 12:19 PM
Interestingly the lad who is an AK re-enactor says an SS cammo is standard part of their kit. Not everyone born in a stable is a horse.

pdf27
09-02-2008, 01:10 PM
OK, you convinced me. "Carpet bombings" may not be that bad after all, even the already named Bomber Harris said: "In spite of all what happened in Hamburg, bombing remains a relatively humane measure".........
Remember, Harris had to lead a bunch of young men facing fearful odds and get them to keep going despite this. He can't exactly say during wartime that area bombing is aimed at killing women and kids, and postwar he's backed himself into a corner.


-Rotterdam was a defended town, the city centrum was packed with strongholds. The only german units fighting in the town were some paratroopers, since own artillery was not available they called in the airstrike as "vertical artillery" (not my term). Article 25 of the Hague Convention says it's forbidden to attack or shell UNDEFENDED towns, villages and homeplaces. Rotterdam lost this status since defended by the dutch army.
As Hamburg and Dresden were defenced by the German army. Here we meet the difference between illegality and immorality. Area bombing is almost certainly immoral (that is my point of view and the 4th Geneva Convention/Geneval Protocols introduced concepts of proportionality and military necessity which support this) but under the laws of the time it was legal.


Oh, now it's the Wehrmacht as well. Man, that's a tough one. I now have to handle that I actually descending from a bunch of war criminals since every male member of my family with the fitting age served in the Wehrmacht. Seriously: "war crimes were practically standard operating procedure", that's as cheap as it is wishy-washy.
It's also reality on the Eastern Front. Soviet PoWs suffered horrendous mortality rates (camps like Novo-Alexandrovsk for the army and Karpovka for civilians), and there was acquiesence at all levels to the likes of the Commisar order in most branches of the Wehrmacht.


No evidence for Katyn which would stand up in court to prove their culpability? Well, what evidence DID they need.
Evidence that proves named individuals carried out the crimes in question. For example, this chap (http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/trials/graf.html) was an NCO in Einsatzkommando 6 and was found not guilty by the IMT due to lack of proof he did anything illegal beyond membership of the SD


Do you think there was some kind of selection by the Wehrmacht leadership like "good guys westwards, bad guys eastwards"???
I would refer you to the Stanford Prison Experiment. National Socialist ideology at senior levels took away the restraints on human behaviour, with very similar results to the Stanford experiment. These restraints remained in place in the West.


I am sure as a former concentration camp inmate (cologne fair grounds) Adenauer thought nothing but the best of the Wehrmacht and the Third Reich without forming his own picture of things.
He discriminated between the Wehrmacht/Waffen SS and Nazi Party/Gestapo/rest of the SS. His experience (and I note he was released before things in the concentration camps started to get really bad) would have been at the hands of the latter.


Why did I just know you'd come up with that? I will immediately start searching the net for any NKVD-, Khmer Rouge- or Manson Family-reenactor groups.
http://www.vikmo.ru/images/kuba23/nkvd-b.jpg
http://www.vikmo.ru/1m.html
I suspect the Khmer Rouge suffer from being jungle based - that kind of tends to ruin the glamour. Try seeing which side has more reenactors in something like Star Wars though - I bet most people want to be stormtroopers!

flamethrowerguy
09-03-2008, 09:00 AM
Remember, Harris had to lead a bunch of young men facing fearful odds and get them to keep going despite this. He can't exactly say during wartime that area bombing is aimed at killing women and kids, and postwar he's backed himself into a corner.

I see. However Harris was not that popular with some of his countrymen after the war, even these days as I learned.



As Hamburg and Dresden were defenced by the German army.
I guess this “undefended” thing in the Hague Convention article didn’t include Flak-units (not sure about it though), which were the only actual fighting units in these towns.


It's also reality on the Eastern Front. Soviet PoWs suffered horrendous mortality rates (camps like Novo-Alexandrovsk for the army and Karpovka for civilians), and there was acquiesence at all levels to the likes of the Commisar order in most branches of the Wehrmacht.
You can hardly blame the front troops for the horrendous losses of russian POWs in the camps. If the front troops were really that disreputable, houndreds of thousands of russian POWs wouldn’t even have reached the camps.
As for the commisar order, several german high-ranking officers called upon Hitler to take this order back or at least to weaken it when it was published on June 6th 1941. It was finally nullified in May 1942 and in most cases ignored by the troops. Don’t wanna justify the order here, just adding an attempt of (shortened) explanation by german general Lothar Rendulic: The commisars were not subordinated to any commander in the field, they were beyond the military hierarchy and belonged to a central administration in Moscow meaning they had not a soldiers’ status. Still they were involved in the fightings which gave them the charakter of franctireurs.”



Evidence that proves named individuals carried out the crimes in question. For example, this chap (http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/trials/graf.html) was an NCO in Einsatzkommando 6 and was found not guilty by the IMT due to lack of proof he did anything illegal beyond membership of the SD

I am sure any decent (yes!) former Waffen-SS soldier would protest to be sinked to the level of an SD thug. The western allies had named individuals for the war crimes of the Waffen-SS as well, still the whole organisation was prohibited.



I would refer you to the Stanford Prison Experiment. National Socialist ideology at senior levels took away the restraints on human behaviour, with very similar results to the Stanford experiment. These restraints remained in place in the West.
And why was that? Maybe cos the german troops encountered an opponent to follow the concerning rules and conventions.



I note he (Adenauer; flame) was released before things in the concentration camps started to get really bad

I am sure he had a wonderful time there.


http://www.vikmo.ru/images/kuba23/nkvd-b.jpg
http://www.vikmo.ru/1m.html
Since one would be prosecuted if reenacting Waffen-SS units in Germany and reenacting NKVD in modern Russia is actually done (I suppose, it is a russian NKVD reenactor, also regarding the URL), this proves that ideological/political re-education worked on us germans but not on everybody (if ever attempted).


Try seeing which side has more reenactors in something like Star Wars though - I bet most people want to be stormtroopers!

Right, but not because they’re the bad guys. The imperial stormtroopers simply had the “cooler” looks, just like Waffen-SS with their inventive camo patterns. No one wanted to be one of the tedious Rebel soldiers with their egg-shaped helmets, lol.

pdf27
09-03-2008, 10:53 AM
II guess this “undefended” thing in the Hague Convention article didn’t include Flak-units (not sure about it though), which were the only actual fighting units in these towns.
My understanding of that section is that it dates back rather a long time, to the era of walled, defended cities - bombarding the city was seen as an acceptable alternative to storming it as a way of forcing surrender. Hence the restriction in the Hague convention - there was no military benefit to attacking an effectively undefended city in this way, so it was outlawed. Looked at in this way, if there were any opposing forces between your own and the city you were bombing (as there clearly were at the time of Hamburg/Dresden/Guernica) then the city counts as defended for the purposes of this passage. Remember Hague was 1908, at which time the Wright brothers had only just barely demonstrated that powered flight was practical - the diplomats writing the convention would not have thought of them as a practical weapon, so we're left treating them as the closest thing they had thought of - artillery.


You can hardly blames the front troops for the horrendous losses of russian POWs in the camps. If the front troops were really that disreputable, houndreds of thousands of russian POWs wouldn’t even have reached the camps.
Large numbers didn't - there are plenty of accounts of German troops (Wehrmacht and SS) taking potshots at passing columns. In any case, who ran the camps? Largely the Wehrmacht again.


As for the commisar order, several german high-ranking officers called upon Hitler to take this order back or at least to weaken it when it was published on June 6th 1941. It was finally nullified in May 1942 and in most cases ignored by the troops.
A number did object to it and generally ignore it, which is greatly to their credit (as with the "Commando" order). Others however were enthusiastic in implementing it and assisting in the mass murder of Jews, etc. I'll have a dig around later for some names if I remember.


Don’t wanna justify the order here, just adding an attempt of (shortened) explanation by german general Lothar Rendulic: The commisars were not subordinated to any commander in the field, they were beyond the military hierarchy and belonged to a central administration in Moscow meaning they had not a soldiers’ status. Still they were involved in the fightings which gave them the charakter of franctireurs.”
Sounds like an ex post facto justification if ever I heard one. They were commanded by a person responsible for their subordinates, carried their arms openly and wore a fixed, distinctive sign recognisable from a distance. On that basis for much of the war the Waffen SS (which was also rarely commanded by the military heirachy, answering instead to Himmler and thorugh him to Hitler) would also count as francs tireurs. I suspect shooting all of them out of hand when captured would not fit your idea of justice (or indeed mine).


I am sure any decent (yes!) former Waffen-SS soldier would protest to be sinked to the level of an SD thug. The western allies had named individuals for the war crimes of the Waffen-SS as well, still the whole organisation was prohibited.
The relevance of course was to the level of proof required. The NKVD was in the area at the time up to various nefarious things, and a large number of Polish officers, etc. were murdered. Was their sufficient documentary/eyewitness evidence available to the western allies in 1945 to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that the NKVD had carried out these murders?


And why was that? Maybe cos the german troops encountered an opponent to follow the concerning rules and conventions.
German atrocities in the east predate and surpass in size Russian atrocities against them. This strongly suggests that it doesn't matter whether or not the Russians were following the Hague convention.


I am sure he had a wonderful time there.
I doubt it, but it wouldn't yet have been an extermination camp and he would almost certainly have not met Wehrmacht or Waffen SS in this time.


Since one would be prosecuted if reenacting Waffen-SS units in Germany and reenacting NKVD in modern Russia is actually done (I suppose, it is a russian NKVD reenactor, also regarding the URL), this proves that ideological/political re-education worked on us germans but not on everybody (if ever attempted).
Yep, agreed.


Right, but not because they’re the bad guys. The imperial stormtroopers simply had the “cooler” looks, just like Waffen-SS with their inventive camo patterns. No one wanted to be one of the tedious Rebel soldiers with their egg-shaped helmets, lol.
What makes them "cool"? More interestingly, why did Lucas decide to make the bad guys look like that and the good guys not?

flamethrowerguy
09-03-2008, 10:59 AM
Brief interposed question:
Why did I suddenly transform to "ChaosDefinesOrder"?

pdf27
09-03-2008, 02:08 PM
I have no idea. Some form of freak copy-paste accident most likely (I tend to use Ctrl-V to put in the (quote="billandbentheflowerpotmen") bit at the front and type (/quote) at the end).

SS Ouche-Vittes
09-03-2008, 03:45 PM
So, no one is going to tell me what makes up a SS outfit or that of a german medic outfit?

Krad42
09-03-2008, 03:48 PM
I'm sure it is no surprise that I agree with Flame on this. Every time that anyone mentions the Nuremberg Trials, I cringe. The Nuremberg Trials were a good example of justice gone hayward. While many of those given death sentences did deserve it, others didn't. The whole process was so obviously flawed and biased that many of the sentences had to be reduced and many death sentences were overturned. In legal terms, any good lawyer in this day and age would have probably gotten many of the accused freed on matters of legalities and technicalities. But, the main issue at hand was the Waffen-SS.
I think that this was a great injustice to many soldiers who fought valiantly and honorably. If a Marine unit committed an atrocity in Vietnam, or if a unit committed atrocities in the Middle East, would the whole Marines be indicted and considered criminals? Of course not! To treat over a million men in such a way because some committed atrocities is unjustified and unfair. The fact that the whole SS and, as one of its branches, the Waffen SS was considered a criminal organization simply ignores the basic right of individuals to fair trial. It is actions like this that make many Germans resent the victors. Sound familiar? Those individuals who committed those horrible crimes, if alive, should have been tried and sentenced. But, to make everyone in the organization suffer from the actions of others...not justice!
But, then again, justice was far from blind then, especially if a German with not so good credentials was useful. Then, instead of sending them to prison, they were placed in some nice house in the US and given a job that many Americans would have considered a dream job. But, golly, let's make every Waffen SS soldier a criminal! What hypocrisy!

And, SS Ouche-Vitte, I have some books that describe the uniforms and I believe that I have some sites bookmarked that have uniforms for sale (repros, for the most part). The reall SS uniforms are hard to come by and very, very expensive! If I find them, I'll let you know.

flamethrowerguy
09-03-2008, 03:53 PM
So, no one is going to tell me what makes up a SS outfit or that of a german medic outfit?

Right, SS Ouche-Vittes, look what you've perpetrated by that question! What was the original topic again? Oh yes, I remember:
Since the Waffen-SS uniforms have been this various especially in the late stage of the war, there are a lot of possibilities to that.
- High leather boots or short boots with gaiters
- Common field-gray trousers or camo trousers
- Waffen-SS belt buckle, no mistaking with common Wehrmacht belt buckle
- Most likely camo smock of any Waffen-SS camo pattern
- M35 helmet with decals respectively M42 helmet without decal, camo helmet cover optional

Got to check out on the medic but that should be much less elaborate.

SS Ouche-Vittes
09-03-2008, 04:09 PM
Thanks for helping!! I'm not going to wear the distinguished features like the SS belt and swastika duh! I'm definitely getting the helmet cover
though. I was gona buy a authentic gas mask off ebay, but i lost the bid. It was sold for only like 40 dollars.:rolleyes:

http://aryanwear.com/images/waffen_ss_t.jpg Wtf LOL?:o

flamethrowerguy
09-03-2008, 04:19 PM
Why don't you just look here for a very good model of a german army medic. Although it's only a model you're able to see the specific equipment items.
http://www.dragonmodelsltd.com/html/70293%20p1.htm

SS-Kommando
09-03-2008, 05:19 PM
Why the hell do reenactors always want to be in either "Elite" units or those particularly associated with war crimes. What's wrong with the 2973rd Independent Saniation Company?

I must say you are a absolutely disgusting. I have read enough hatefilled propaganda in this topic to decide that I will not remain a member of these forums. You are insulting brave Waffen-SS men who fought for what's right. Had they won the world would have been a far better place, without all of today's decay and filth.

/SS-Kommando

pdf27
09-03-2008, 05:43 PM
You are insulting brave Waffen-SS men who fought for what's right. Had they won the world would have been a far better place, without all of today's decay and filth.
Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out!

Cezar
09-03-2008, 06:28 PM
I do not see anything wrong in - i'm refering to first posts of thread - in collecting a uniform and equipment of Waffen-SS. For me, German uniforms from WWII was one of best-looking and modern. Especially SS camo smocks. You see, i know a man who has collection of uniforms, Americans, British, Polish, Germans and Soviets. And i dont see anything wrong in it. Why you can have NKVD uniform without problem? They werent innocent too. And as Ptims said - if someone want to buy for himself Waffen-SS uniform, it doesnt mean, that he's a Nazi or something. ;)

And like i said in 'hello thread', mine group as that which reenact actual group which seized Waffen-SS warehouses on the first days of Warsaw Uprising and dress up in uniforms (not only camo smocks) and equipment, we do the same thing. Beside of having that smock (with white-red band), choosing the rest of equipment is free. For example: one of mine groupmate have only smock and cap of SS, rest is civil/pre-war uniform sets, and mine equipment and clothing is german in about 85%. ;) Because i like it, it looks great. But i'm not going to wear Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS full uniform and equipment, with all insignia (even without them) because i know what is this, and what this unifom mean for my country.

This is history, we cannot change it ;)

And sorry for mine poor English...

Krad42
09-04-2008, 12:35 PM
SS Ouche- Vittes,
I sent you a couple of private messages with some links of places where you can order stuff from. Hope it helps.

Krad42

Cezar
09-04-2008, 01:01 PM
SS Ouche-Vittes if you want i can give you couple of good photos of German's medic reenactors

Egorka
09-04-2008, 02:52 PM
Don’t wanna justify the order here, just adding an attempt of (shortened) explanation by german general Lothar Rendulic: The commisars were not subordinated to any commander in the field, they were beyond the military hierarchy and belonged to a central administration in Moscow meaning they had not a soldiers’ status. Still they were involved in the fightings which gave them the charakter of franctireurs.”
Such explanation of Commisar Order is an empty excuse.
Besides I am not sure that it was "in most cases ignored by the troops". By the way, according to the order the privats were not to execute Commiansars but to deliver them to the Wehrmacht officers which would either carry the order themselves or order it to be done by privates.

Besides according to some German exhortations to the troops ALL Soviet service men were presented as illegal fighters that unjustfully hold weapons in their arm.
I will dig the quote other day - too late now for that.

bas
09-04-2008, 03:43 PM
So, no one is going to tell me what makes up a SS outfit or that of a german medic outfit?

If you don't re-enact what are you planning to do with the "SS outfit" or "German medic outfit"?

(btw AFAIK German medics wore nothing different in uniform to other soldiers. To do so would make them standout to snipers.)

flamethrowerguy
09-04-2008, 04:19 PM
Such explanation of Commisar Order is an empty excuse.
Not my explanation, just citing the last named general.

Besides I am not sure that it was "in most cases ignored by the troops".
Not my declaration either but by people who had actually been on the eastern front - in contrary to you and me. I saw an interview once with a former lower ranking german officer on this issue in a documentary: "It all depended on the commander of the unit. If he was a scumbag the order was carried out, if he was a decent guy the commissars lived."
BTW, I remember reading there was a certain number of russian soldiers that got rid of their commissars on their own initiative. Especially units that decided to surrender to the germans.


By the way, according to the order the privats were not to execute Commiansars but to deliver them to the Wehrmacht officers which would either carry the order themselves or order it to be done by privates.
Wrong, the captured commissars had to be turned over to the "Einsatzgruppen" of the SD. Remaining under Wehrmacht command area would have been the lesser of two evils for them.


Besides according to some German exhortations to the troops ALL Soviet service men were presented as illegal fighters that unjustfully hold weapons in their arm.
I will dig the quote other day - too late now for that.
Please do, I am anxious to read that one!

SS Ouche-Vittes
09-04-2008, 08:56 PM
Jesus christ!!!!!!!

Egorka
09-05-2008, 10:18 AM
IMO, there was never much difference between Germany and Russia.
If there really was not much difference than East Germany would not have any population left...

Nickdfresh
09-05-2008, 01:08 PM
Which they really didn't!!! So, obviously they didn't heed his advice if that was his meaning. It was very obvious to everyone that there was a difference between regions occupied by the British and the Americans, and regions occupied by Russia. IMO, there was never much difference between Germany and Russia. They treated each other in barbaric ways throughout the war.


Except Germany invaded "Russian" first...

Egorka
09-05-2008, 02:59 PM
Wrong, the captured commissars had to be turned over to the "Einsatzgruppen" of the SD. Remaining under Wehrmacht command area would have been the lesser of two evils for them.
Right. It would most likely be less of two evils. But I was wondering about "in most cases ignored by the troops".

I do not doubt that some of the officers were repulsed by that and did not carry it out. I do know that most of German officers denied participation in execution of this the Commissar order. But that was after the war, of course. During the was most Wehrmaht divisions regularly reported numbers of executed Commissars, Party members and Jewish Bolsheviks.


Please do, I am anxious to read that one!
I can not dig the exact quote right now... I read it in the book "Breve fra Østfronten (http://www.historie-nu.dk/site/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=18&category_id=6&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=78&vmcchk=1)" where it was mentioned that in number of propaganda materials intended for Wehrmacht soldiers was mentioned that Soviet soldiers are somewhat illegal combatants because they defend criminal Judeo-Bolshevism and thefore can not be given honor as an opponent soldier normaly should have.
I think there was a quote from a material distributed to the Wehrmacht the night before Barbarossa begun.

SS Ouche-Vittes
09-06-2008, 10:20 AM
i want to make film. reenactment isn't exactly the same.

If you don't re-enact what are you planning to do with the "SS outfit" or "German medic outfit"?

(btw AFAIK German medics wore nothing different in uniform to other soldiers. To do so would make them standout to snipers.)

ww11freak34
09-09-2008, 10:05 PM
the waffen ss tank uniform was black the soldier uniform was foreset camo

Major Walter Schmidt
09-18-2008, 01:27 AM
The waffen SS panzer uniforms sometimes had camo...

aly j
09-18-2008, 09:29 AM
OK, you convinced me. "Carpet bombings" may not be that bad after all, even the already named Bomber Harris said: "In spite of all what happened in Hamburg, bombing remains a relatively humane measure".........
-Guernica was a misdrop due to bad sight, disadvantageous winds and crappy aiming devices of the JU52 (!) bombers of the still unexperienced german Luftwaffe. The actual target of the attack were bridges and street crossings eastwards of Guernica. Any civilian victim is one too much, but the Guernica air raid caused the death of 226 people, so it was not by far the mass terror bombing enemy- especially communist voices tried to make it.
-Rotterdam was a defended town, the city centrum was packed with strongholds. The only german units fighting in the town were some paratroopers, since own artillery was not available they called in the airstrike as "vertical artillery" (not my term). Article 25 of the Hague Convention says it's forbidden to attack or shell UNDEFENDED towns, villages and homeplaces. Rotterdam lost this status since defended by the dutch army.
-Belgrade was attacked without declaration of war, right. As I said I can't and don't want to justify everything committed by Germany. But IIRC there was an attack of the RAF the very next day after the Belgrade bombings hitting the town of Sofia/Bulgaria. This attack was described as an act of reprisal by the UK itself.



Oh, now it's the Wehrmacht as well. Man, that's a tough one. I now have to handle that I actually descending from a bunch of war criminals since every male member of my family with the fitting age served in the Wehrmacht. Seriously: "war crimes were practically standard operating procedure", that's as cheap as it is wishy-washy.




The NKVD wasn't called an illegal organisation at Nuremberg either, right? In place of Katyn I give you Nemmersdorf or hundreds of other east-prussian, silesian, pommeranian, hungarian villages for the Red Army...
No evidence for Katyn which would stand up in court to prove their culpability? Well, what evidence DID they need. What about the statements of the commission of 12 foreign official medicolegal expert from all over Europe plus an unknown number of british and american POWs as well as several members of the polish Red Cross? All these people have been "in situ" on invitation/request of the german government to prove that the killings actually took place in 1940 meaning under soviet domain. Honestly, the IMT hadn't the balls to accuse Uncle Joe and his clique for anything!



Ah, this is generalizing crap again. You're discrediting millions of decent front soldiers here. But WTF, they were only "krauts", right?!? Do you think there was some kind of selection by the Wehrmacht leadership like "good guys westwards, bad guys eastwards"???
"Le Paradis" was a flawless war crime and the CO, SS-Obersturmführer Fritz Knöchlein, got what he deserved in 1948.




I am sure as a former concentration camp inmate (cologne fair grounds) Adenauer thought nothing but the best of the Wehrmacht and the Third Reich without forming his own picture of things. Surely, the IMT at Nuremberg was impeccable...but how bout this little differences in the Jodl judgement? Didn't one of their own call it a miscarriage (french judge Henri Donnedieu de Vabres)?




Why did I just know you'd come up with that? I will immediately start searching the net for any NKVD-, Khmer Rouge- or Manson Family-reenactor groups.

cool...ur family members was in the ss.. wow.dont worrie about it
im sure they where good germans....there where good ones out there.
they werent all bad.

aly j
09-18-2008, 09:35 AM
I must say you are a absolutely disgusting. I have read enough hatefilled propaganda in this topic to decide that I will not remain a member of these forums. You are insulting brave Waffen-SS men who fought for what's right. Had they won the world would have been a far better place, without all of today's decay and filth.

/SS-Kommando
yes i do agree
germany lost and the world is a shit heap
and we still got another country rulin us

navyson
09-18-2008, 09:40 AM
we still got another country rulin us

I thought australia was now independent of great britain.:)

aly j
09-18-2008, 09:48 AM
I thought australia was now independent of great britain.:)

haha i mean usa rulin this earth

flamethrowerguy
09-18-2008, 09:57 AM
cool...ur family members was in the ss.. wow.

Nooooo, not as far as I know...

navyson
09-18-2008, 10:00 AM
haha i mean usa rulin this earth
Hey...Greece, Rome, Holy Roman Empire, France, England, Germany all had turns...now it's our turn muahahahahaha! See how silly that sounds? That's what it sounds like when people say the US is trying to rule the earth.:D

aly j
09-18-2008, 10:13 AM
Hey...Greece, Rome, Holy Roman Empire, France, England, Germany all had turns...now it's our turn muahahahahaha! See how silly that sounds? That's what it sounds like when people say the US is trying to rule the earth.:D

but its true
nearly every one hates usa
even the germans r not hated more than u
usa dont really deserve 2 be rulin
germany did bad things to jews
but want did the yanks do to the south africans

aly j
09-18-2008, 10:14 AM
Nooooo, not as far as I know...

where they in the normal german army

flamethrowerguy
09-18-2008, 10:15 AM
where they in the normal german army

Yes, all-grunt, no brass...

aly j
09-18-2008, 10:31 AM
Yes, all-grunt, no brass...

thats so hot....
any ways what does all grunt and no brass mean?

navyson
09-18-2008, 10:33 AM
but its true
nearly every one hates usa
even the germans r not hated more than u
usa dont really deserve 2 be rulin
germany did bad things to jews
but want did the yanks do to the south africans
I don't know of any country where we have soldiers boots on the ground that we intend on staying as a conquering nation. So how are we ruling the world? Remind me again what we did in South Africa, as I have no idea to what you're referring.

aly j
09-18-2008, 10:41 AM
I don't know of any country where we have soldiers boots on the ground that we intend on staying as a conquering nation. So how are we ruling the world? Remind me again what we did in South Africa, as I have no idea to what you're referring.

i think i offended u ,im sorry
most countries hav done bad things
im just pointin out 2 u that america kid nap
blacks from s/f and use them as slaves,long time ago.
in iraq u got usa troops in there country.

navyson
09-18-2008, 10:58 AM
i think i offended u ,im sorry
most countries hav done bad things
im just pointin out 2 u that america kid nap
blacks from s/f and use them as slaves,long time ago.
in iraq u got usa troops in there country.
No offense taken! As for the slavery issue, the US dealt with that internally (US Civil War) and obviously don't have slavery anymore. Contrary to popular belief, we had justification to go into Iraq because they didn't follow UN mandates set after the first Gulf War. (other countries went in with us) It's a lie to say that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction since Saddam Hussein used poison gas on the kurds in northern Iraq to stifle rebellion after the first war. Maybe they didn't have as much as was thought. Anyway, at this moment the US is reducing the amount of forces in Iraq.

aly j
09-18-2008, 11:07 AM
No offense taken! As for the slavery issue, the US dealt with that internally (US Civil War) and obviously don't have slavery anymore. Contrary to popular belief, we had justification to go into Iraq because they didn't follow UN mandates set after the first Gulf War. (other countries went in with us) It's a lie to say that Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction since Saddam Hussein used poison gas on the kurds in northern Iraq to stifle rebellion after the first war. Maybe they didn't have as much as was thought. Anyway, at this moment the US is reducing the amount of forces in Iraq.

yes very true...........
i just think that the usa govement think that there better
than all of us
thats why i hate usa.
not the normal people of usa
may be i should just said that in the first place.
lik i hate hitler but i lov germans.no harm done
any ways is all the guys on here in there 50s
am i the only 20 something on here
u guys speak very adult...lik very mature

Churchill
09-18-2008, 11:22 AM
Well, if you didn't use chatroom language here, you would sound mature too...? Just saying, no harm intended...

aly j
09-18-2008, 11:24 AM
Well, if you didn't use chatroom language here, you would sound mature too...? Just saying, no harm intended...

this is funnie
it feels lik im really talkin 2 the real churchill
im kind of really young 4 my age

navyson
09-18-2008, 11:29 AM
yes very true...........
i just think that the usa govement think that there better
than all of us
thats why i hate usa.
not the normal people of usa
may be i should just said that in the first place.
lik i hate hitler but i lov germans.no harm done
any ways is all the guys on here in there 50s
am i the only 20 something on here
u guys speak very adult...lik very mature
Well, I'm glad you don't hate the normal people of the USA. Maybe if you got to actually know some you might get a better opinion of us. I'm sure the germans are glad you love them.:D As for age groups, there's more than likely a number of different ages onboard.

aly j
09-18-2008, 11:34 AM
[QUOTE=navyson1;134830]Well, I'm glad you don't hate the normal people of the USA. Maybe if you got to actually know some you might get a better opinion of us. I'm sure the germans are glad you love them.:D As for age groups, there's more than likely a number of different ages onboard.[/QUOTE
just the govements
so there is older guys on here........
i lik older guys better

pdf27
09-18-2008, 12:58 PM
am i the only 20 something on here
u guys speak very adult...lik very mature
Ummm.... someone in their twenties is an adult. From your language I had assumed you were about twelve.
In fact, it is entirely possible I'm younger than you are...

herman2
09-18-2008, 02:14 PM
Leave my friend Aly j alone PDF...I like him, so be nice. You already scared off SS Kommando in this thread....

Adrian Wainer
09-18-2008, 03:45 PM
Leave my friend Aly j alone PDF...I like him, so be nice. You already scared off SS Kommando in this thread....

I thought Aly j is a girl or I am confuseing Aly j with somebody else?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

pdf27
09-18-2008, 03:45 PM
Leave my friend Aly j alone PDF...I like him, so be nice. You already scared off SS Kommando in this thread....
At the risk of you lurking around her with your tongue hanging out from now on, aly j is female...


i hav 2 take ur word 4 it
cause i dont think ive seen there unifroms
us girls do lik men in unifroms
and i cant help it if the german had better
lookin unifroms

Adrian Wainer
09-18-2008, 04:16 PM
Hi I'm interested in buying a SS outfit:cool:. What are the contents that make up the outfit or at least the exposed stuff. I want the combat outfit not the one for formal meetings. what do i first buy?:confused: Any good web sites? this is the best i think: http://www.zeugmeisterei.com

Hi SS Ouche-Vittes a polite suggestion, really as in everything there are usually quite a lot of good people and a few nutjobs, that said it would seem to me that proportionally there might be more nutjobs in the SS memorabilia hobby than there would be amongst say people who collect beer mats or old record players for a hobby, now I am sure there are lots of nice people involved in collecting SS stuff but that would be little consolation to you, if you have happened to meet some of the not so nice ones. Furthermore in a number of countries with a number of people, they have strong feelings about the SS in that e.g. German forces entered one Russian village but the people had fled except for a young woman with her baby, the troops wanted to know where the villagers had fled, so they grabbed the baby out of her arms and swung it at full force against a pillar so it's head exploded, with that the Woman became hysterical and the troops were able to find the location of the villagers. People tend to have a long memory when it comes to stuff like that, so you might want to think carefully where you would go and who you would meet, if you would be deciding to dress up in an SS uniform.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Lasb721
09-18-2008, 04:49 PM
Why the hell do reenactors always want to be in either "Elite" units or those particularly associated with war crimes. What's wrong with the 2973rd Independent Saniation Company?

What is a Saniation Co? Did LtCalley belong to one? He SANITIZED a bunch of "gooks". His punishment,,,2 days in the brig.then sent home to work in a jewelry store The scales of justice have different size pans for different people. I was in the Army at that time, am I guilty of war crimes too(by association)? Are confederate re enactors guilty of being pro slavery? Or are you just a bitter old man with blinders? Give the kid a break!
I bet you wouldn't call a biker with an Iron cross tatoo a wanabee elitist(that would get your A## kicked) You are much too serious. Do you wear a sanitation uniform?;) Is there a commode pin on the collar?

pdf27
09-18-2008, 05:12 PM
Is there a commode pin on the collar?
No, although I do have a ball and chain on there!

Lasb721
09-18-2008, 05:25 PM
Hi SS Ouche-Vittes a polite suggestion, really as in everything there are usually quite a lot of good people and a few nutjobs, that said it would seem to me that proportionally there might be more nutjobs in the SS memorabilia hobby than there would be amongst say people who collect beer mats or old record players for a hobby, now I am sure there are lots of nice people involved in collecting SS stuff but that would be little consolation to you, if you have happened to meet some of the not so nice ones. Furthermore in a number of countries with a number of people, they have strong feelings about the SS in that e.g. German forces entered one Russian village but the people had fled except for a young woman with her baby, the troops wanted to know where the villagers had fled, so they grabbed the baby out of her arms and swung it at full force against a pillar so it's head exploded, with that the Woman became hysterical and the troops were able to find the location of the villagers. People tend to have a long memory when it comes to stuff like that, so you might want to think carefully where you would go and who you would meet, if you would be deciding to dress up in an SS uniform.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Is this a fact or another "urban legend" made by some German hater?
Here is a fact ,,,the Serbs impaled a Hungarian Gendarm alive on a wooden pole(rectum up through neck) after the allies refused his entry into Austria in 45, and gave him to the Jugoslav commies. The Ruskies marched 50000 Honved (hungarian) soldiers who surrendered into a river in winter to drowning. I don't think any were prosecuted for war crimes, do you? The Ruskies raped 5000+ women in Budapest alone, one woman had her pelvis fractured by the multiple rape attacks and died two days later,,,,no war crimes there! Some of those guys (in their 80s) still wear medals and smile at Moscow parades! NO GROUP is INNOCENT,,,not Russians,Germans,Americans French,English,Rumanians etc etc. Crazy Bastards come in all flags and colors. When any one group calls itself better innocent or righteous I sense Bull Sh*# and ignorance.

Adrian Wainer
09-18-2008, 05:26 PM
What is a Saniation Co? Did LtCalley belong to one? He SANITIZED a bunch of "gooks". His punishment,,,2 days in the brig.then sent home to work in a jewelry store The scales of justice have different size pans for different people. I was in the Army at that time, am I guilty of war crimes too(by association)? Are confederate re enactors guilty of being pro slavery? Or are you just a bitter old man with blinders? Give the kid a break!
I bet you wouldn't call a biker with an Iron cross tatoo a wanabee elitist(that would get your A## kicked) You are much too serious. Do you wear a sanitation uniform?;) Is there a commode pin on the collar?

Hi I am sure, pdf27 can answer for himself, so I have not intention of doing that. As for the general issues you raise. The US Armed Forces were Vietnam with a mission of defending the people of South Vietnan, now the thing might have been riddled with SNAFUs but there was not a formal policy or even an informal policy of exterminating the South Vietnamese people. Westmoreland made a hash of things in that defending South Vietnam was not served by fighting a war of attrition on NVA and VC forces, in that political policy dictated that much of North Vietnam was off limits to US military intervention and thus Hanoi could turn the tempo of the War up and down as it suited it. All Hanoi had to achieve given that the US had a free press, was to create the impression that the US was fighting an unwinable War against an enemy which never give up for a country that was not worth fighting for. The Americization of the War and the fighting of a War of attrition, is exactly what Hanoi wanted and that is what Westermoreland duly provided. As for the Confedracy, slavery was wrong and the denial of civil rights to black people in the South till the 1960s was wrong too, that said the Confedracy had an evil within called slavery and discrimination against the blackman, whilst the Third Reich was not something that was part good and part bad like the Confedracy but evil from start to finish top to bottom and unfortunately life is shades of Grey not black and white and I didn't seen any disgruntled Southern good old boys crashing aircraft in to the twin towers on 9/11 with cries of "Hurrah for General Robert E Lee and dam the Yankees" but I did see some modern days palls of old Johhny one ball, doing it with cries of "Allah al Akbar", so I would cut some slack for people that are interested in re-entacting the Confederate side, that I might not for folks who like to dress up in the likes of Waffen SS Das Reich uniforms.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Lasb721
09-18-2008, 05:27 PM
No, although I do have a ball and chain on there!

Ha Ha You are OK!

Lasb721
09-18-2008, 05:31 PM
Hi I am sure, pdf27 can answer for himself, so I have not intention of doing that. As for the general issues you raise. The US Armed Forces were Vietnam with a mission of defending the people of South Vietnan, now the thing might have been riddled with SNAFUs but there was not a formal policy or even informal policy of exterminating the South Vietnamese people. Westmoreland made a hash of things in that defending South Vietnam was not served by fighting a war of attrition on NVA and VC forces in that political policy dictated that much of North Vietnam was off limits to US military intervention and thus the Hanoi could turn the tempo of the War up and down as it suited it. All Hanoi had to achieve given that the US had a free press, was to create the impression that US was fighting an unwinable War against an enemy which never give up for a country that was not worth fighting for. The Americization of the War and the fighting of a War of attrition, is exactly what Hanoi wanted and that is what Westermoreland duly provided. As for the Confedracy, slavery was wrong and the denial of civil rights to black people in the South till the 1960s was wrong too, that said the Confedracy had an evil within called slavery and discrimination against the blackman, whilst the Third Reich was not something that was part good and part bad like the Confedracy but evil from start to finish top to bottom and unfortunately life is shades of Grey not black and white and I didn't seen any disgruntled Southern good old boys crashing aircraft in to the twin towers on 9/11 with cries of "Hurrah for General Robert E Lee and dam the Yankees" but I did see some modern days palls of old Johhny one ball, doing it with cries of "Allah al Akbar", so I would cut some slack for people that are interested in re-entacting the Confederate side, that I might not for folks who like to dress up in the likes of Waffen SS Das Reich uniforms.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

There was an informal policy of raisng the daily body count by any means possible without bringing up any media attention.

Lasb721
09-18-2008, 05:36 PM
Hi I am sure, pdf27 can answer for himself, so I have not intention of doing that. As for the general issues you raise. The US Armed Forces were Vietnam with a mission of defending the people of South Vietnan, now the thing might have been riddled with SNAFUs but there was not a formal policy or even informal policy of exterminating the South Vietnamese people. Westmoreland made a hash of things in that defending South Vietnam was not served by fighting a war of attrition on NVA and VC forces in that political policy dictated that much of North Vietnam was off limits to US military intervention and thus the Hanoi could turn the tempo of the War up and down as it suited it. All Hanoi had to achieve given that the US had a free press, was to create the impression that US was fighting an unwinable War against an enemy which never give up for a country that was not worth fighting for. The Americization of the War and the fighting of a War of attrition, is exactly what Hanoi wanted and that is what Westermoreland duly provided. As for the Confedracy, slavery was wrong and the denial of civil rights to black people in the South till the 1960s was wrong too, that said the Confedracy had an evil within called slavery and discrimination against the blackman, whilst the Third Reich was not something that was part good and part bad like the Confedracy but evil from start to finish top to bottom and unfortunately life is shades of Grey not black and white and I didn't seen any disgruntled Southern good old boys crashing aircraft in to the twin towers on 9/11 with cries of "Hurrah for General Robert E Lee and dam the Yankees" but I did see some modern days palls of old Johhny one ball, doing it with cries of "Allah al Akbar", so I would cut some slack for people that are interested in re-entacting the Confederate side, that I might not for folks who like to dress up in the likes of Waffen SS Das Reich uniforms.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Slavery is Evil from top to bottom and running a pickup 150 into the twin towers yellin YEEHA would only shake up the driver and loosen his only tooth!;)

Adrian Wainer
09-18-2008, 05:38 PM
Is this a fact or another "urban legend" made by some German hater?
Here is a fact ,,,the Serbs impaled a Hungarian Gendarm alive on a wooden pole(rectum up through neck) after the allies refused his entry into Austria in 45, and gave him to the Jugoslav commies. The Ruskies marched 50000 Honved (hungarian) soldiers who surrendered into a river in winter to drowning. I don't think any were prosecuted for war crimes, do you? The Ruskies raped 5000+ women in Budapest alone, one woman had her pelvis fractured by the multiple rape attacks and died two days later,,,,no war crimes there! Some of those guys (in their 80s) still wear medals and smile at Moscow parades! NO GROUP is INNOCENT,,,not Russians,Germans,Americans French,English,Rumanians etc etc. Crazy Bastards come in all flags and colors. When any one group calls itself better innocent or righteous I sense Bull Sh*# and ignorance.


Sorry I think you are missing the point, the purpose of my remarks was not an historical essay but to suggest to SS Ouches Vittes that he might be getting involved in stuff which has risks. If you have issues with the Commies I am not one, never been one and I would not have had a moral problem with their being nuked during the Cold War. Might I also respectfully suggest to you, that if it was not for the likes of Herr Hitler, SS Reichfurher Himmler, the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS and the whole motley Third Reich crew that the Soviets would not have occupied a large part of Europe and therefor would not have been in a position to be raping and murdering people in those occupied countries.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer
09-18-2008, 05:44 PM
Slavery is Evil from top to bottom and running a pickup 150 into the twin towers yellin YEEHA would only shake up the driver and loosen his only tooth!;)

So everybody in the South is a red neck hick, that would be incapable of pulling off a stunt like bringing down the twin towers if they put their mind to it? And Hallal pigs can fly.



Slavery is Evil from top to bottom

And I said it wasn't did I?


Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Adrian Wainer
09-18-2008, 05:51 PM
There was an informal policy of raisng the daily body count by any means possible without bringing up any media attention.

Could you elaborate please, I do not understand what you are trying to say?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

aly j
09-19-2008, 12:53 AM
I thought Aly j is a girl or I am confuseing Aly j with somebody else?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

yes im a female......and im not 12
im 26

mike M.
09-20-2008, 09:51 PM
i think i offended u ,im sorry
most countries hav done bad things
im just pointin out 2 u that america kid nap
blacks from s/f and use them as slaves,long time ago.
in iraq u got usa troops in there country.

If this rube isnt a troll..I dont know who is. LOL Well at least these post are fun to read. Carry on...:)

aly j
09-20-2008, 11:31 PM
If this rube isnt a troll..I dont know who is. LOL Well at least these post are fun to read. Carry on...:)

rube isnt troll.................what does that mean?

Major Walter Schmidt
09-21-2008, 12:11 AM
i think mike is referring to you as a troll.
see here
http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Troll

Major Walter Schmidt
09-21-2008, 12:16 AM
not that i am saying you are one...

aly j
09-21-2008, 12:40 AM
If this rube isnt a troll..I dont know who is. LOL Well at least these post are fun to read. Carry on...:)

least my points dont BORE people
there short and staight 2 the point
no harm done

pdf27
09-21-2008, 05:57 AM
i think mike is referring to you as a troll.
see here
http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Troll
Good to see the Arrsepedia is taking over the world :D

Lasb721
09-21-2008, 06:45 PM
Could you elaborate please, I do not understand what you are trying to say?

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

Some military observers concluded that My Lai showed the need for more and better volunteers to provide stronger leadership for the troops. As the Vietnam conflict dragged on, the number of well trained and experienced career soldiers on the front lines dropped sharply as casualties and combat rotation took their toll. These observers claimed the absence of the many bright young men who avoided military service through college attendance or homeland service caused the talent pool for new officers to become very shallow.[35] They pointed to Calley, a young, unemployed college dropout, as an example of the raw and inexperienced recruits being rushed through officer training. Others pointed out problems with the military's insistence on unconditional obedience to orders while at the same time limiting the doctrine of "command responsibility" to the lowest ranks. Others saw My Lai and related war crimes as a direct result of the military's attrition strategy, with its emphasis on "body counts" and "kill ratios". The fact that the massacre was successfully covered up for 18 months was seen as a prime example of the Pentagon's "Culture of Concealment" and of the lack of integrity that permeated the Defense establishment. And the fact that Calley was the only officer convicted led many to see him as a scapegoat.

Lasb721
09-21-2008, 06:49 PM
Adrian,
Mentioned in MiLai massacre Wykipedia (body counts,kill ratios)

Nickdfresh
09-21-2008, 06:54 PM
What is a Saniation Co? Did LtCalley belong to one? He SANITIZED a bunch of "gooks". His punishment,,,2 days in the brig.then sent home to work in a jewelry store The scales of justice have different size pans for different people. I was in the Army at that time, am I guilty of war crimes too(by association)? Are confederate re enactors guilty of being pro slavery? Or are you just a bitter old man with blinders? Give the kid a break!
I bet you wouldn't call a biker with an Iron cross tatoo a wanabee elitist(that would get your A## kicked) You are much too serious. Do you wear a sanitation uniform?;) Is there a commode pin on the collar?


He should have been executed. But Calley spent more than two days in the brig...

P.S. Captain Medina should have been shot too!

Nickdfresh
09-21-2008, 07:00 PM
Slavery is Evil from top to bottom and running a pickup 150 into the twin towers yellin YEEHA would only shake up the driver and loosen his only tooth!;)

For most of the Southerners fighting for the Confederacy, fighting for slavery would be tantamount for the average high school kid fighting in Iraq for "the oil companies." Slavery only benefited a small percentage of the Southern population. The "poor, bloody infantry" of the Confederate Army came from the white underclass of sharecroppers who couldn't dream of owning slaves...

Nickdfresh
09-21-2008, 07:09 PM
Some military observers concluded that My Lai showed the need for more and better volunteers to provide stronger leadership for the troops. As the Vietnam conflict dragged on, the number of well trained and experienced career soldiers on the front lines dropped sharply as casualties and combat rotation took their toll. These observers claimed the absence of the many bright young men who avoided military service through college attendance or homeland service caused the talent pool for new officers to become very shallow.[35] They pointed to Calley, a young, unemployed college dropout, as an example of the raw and inexperienced recruits being rushed through officer training. Others pointed out problems with the military's insistence on unconditional obedience to orders while at the same time limiting the doctrine of "command responsibility" to the lowest ranks. Others saw My Lai and related war crimes as a direct result of the military's attrition strategy, with its emphasis on "body counts" and "kill ratios". The fact that the massacre was successfully covered up for 18 months was seen as a prime example of the Pentagon's "Culture of Concealment" and of the lack of integrity that permeated the Defense establishment. And the fact that Calley was the only officer convicted led many to see him as a scapegoat.

It should be noted that although My Lai was, and is, one of the darkest chapters in US military history, it in a sense is also somewhat the brightest. Because, as the US infantry were shooting down the 400 or so residents of the hamlet, a cavalry troop of Huey choppers came in and witnessing the massacre, threatened to open fire ON THEIR OWN soldiers if they continued murdering the villagers...

It was indeed covered up, with Gen. Colin Powell mentioned as one of the culprits repressing the news of the massacre, the atrocity was stopped by the very same army conducting it. This illustrating the very conflict taking place within American society over the policies in Vietnam, but something unprecedented when compared to the atrocities conducted in say, the Soviet Union during the German invasion...

Adrian Wainer
09-25-2008, 12:05 PM
It should be noted that although My Lai was, and is, one of the darkest chapters in US military history, it in a sense is also somewhat the brightest. Because, as the US infantry were shooting down the 400 or so residents of the hamlet, a cavalry troop of Huey choppers came in and witnessing the massacre, threatened to open fire ON THEIR OWN soldiers if they continued murdering the villagers...

It was indeed covered up, with Gen. Colin Powell mentioned as one of the culprits repressing the news of the massacre, the atrocity was stopped by the very same army conducting it. This illustrating the very conflict taking place within American society over the policies in Vietnam, but something unprecedented when compared to the atrocities conducted in say, the Soviet Union during the German invasion...

Thanx Nick for that, like I always have been curious about Colin Powell's involvement with Americal, I don't like the guy and have never trusted him but I had to give him the benefit of the doubt that he might have been railroaded in to Americal, on the basis that whilst it had been a prestige operation during World War 2, in Vietnam Americal had gone to the dogs and given the level of racism in America at the time it might have been a useful way of mucking up his career by getting him posted to a division that was going to get itself in to trouble sooner or later. But after what you say, it seems to me Colin Powell found his own level, in that Calley was not in a position to hold a gun to Colin Powel's head to force him to try to cover up the atrocity.

Best and Warm Regards
Adrian Wainer

SS Ouche-Vittes
09-25-2008, 03:10 PM
i recall that in nam. the helicopters landed in between the citizens and the evil soldiers.

SS Ouche-Vittes
09-25-2008, 03:12 PM
Your typing skills say otherwise about your claimed age of twenty six.

Egorka
11-20-2008, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Egorka
Besides according to some German exhortations to the troops ALL Soviet service men were presented as illegal fighters that unjustfully hold weapons in their arm.
I will dig the quote other day - too late now for that.

Please do, I am anxious to read that one!
Here it is. Almost as I said. See the bold part below.

An OKW Directives For The Treatment Of Soviet Prisoners Of War.
The directive was issued by Wilhelm Canaris for Wilhelm Keitel, and was prepared by Graf von Moltke.



Berlin, 15 September 1941

Amt Ausl/Abw. Nr. 9731/41 geh. Chef Ausl. F XIV, E 1.
Secret
To be submitted to the Chief of OKW
Notes of Speech.
REFERENCE: 2 f 24.11 AWA / Kriegsgef. (I) Nr. 3058,41 secret
To be submitted to the Chief of AWA

I. 1. The legal position is as follows:
The Geneva Convention for the treatment of Prisoners of war is not ["not" is underlined in purple pencil] binding in the relationship between Germany and the USSR, therefore only the principles of general international law on the treatment of prisoners of war apply. Since the 18th century these have gradually been established along the lines that war captivity is neither revenge nor punishment, but solely protective custody [Sicherheitshaft] the only purpose of which is to prevent the prisoners of war from a further participation in the war. This principle was developed in accordance with the view held by all armies that it is contrary to military tradition to kill or injure helpless people; this is also in the interest of all belligerents in order to prevent mistreatment of their own soldiers in case of capture.


2. The decrees for the treatment of Soviet Prisoners of War enclosed as supplement No. 1 are based on a fundamentally different view point, as is shown in the opening phrases. According to this view point military service for the Soviets is not considered military duty but, because of the murders committed by the Russians, is characterized in its totality as a crime. Hence the validity of international legal standards in wartime is denied in the war against Bolshevism. Furthermore much is set aside which, according to previous experience has proved itself not only as militarily useful but was also considered absolutely essential for the maintenance of discipline and efficiency of the own troops.

...



And an other relevant one:


source: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/1519-ps.asp

Bolshevism is the deadly enemy of Nazi Germany. For the first time, the German soldier is encountering not only a military opponent, but one, at the same time, steeped in the ideas of Bolshevism so pernicious to the people. The fight against National-Socialism has become part of his system. He conducts it by every means in his power: Sabotage, seditious propaganda, incendiarism, murder. The bolshevist soldier has therefore lost all claim to treatment as an honourable opponent in accordance with the Geneva Convention.

It is therefore in keeping with the respect and honour of the German Armed Forces, that every German soldier should hold himself severely aloof when dealing with Soviet prisoners of war. Treatment must be cool but correct. Any indulgence or even friendly disposition is to be punished very severely. The feeling of pride and superiority of the German soldier ordered to guard Soviet PWs, must at all times be visible even in public.