The Rape of Nanking:The Forgotten Genocide.

[Comrade Commisar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

[Jagdpanther]

is this from wikipedia

[Comrade Commisar]

yeah.

Edit: not anymore it isn't - forum policy on Wikipedia is and has been for some time that wholesale copy and paste from it serves no purpose and does not add to the site. Accordingly I have removed the material you pasted in and provided a link to the original article. Do not do this again - pdf27

[bwing55543]

If anything, I don't think the Rape of Nanking is forgotten if they still teach it in history classes.

By the way, was it really necessary to post some of those pictures?

[Comrade Commisar]

If anything, I don't think the Rape of Nanking is forgotten if they still teach it in history classes.

By the way, was it really necessary to post some of those pictures?


Bud i know but it needs to be put up to showthat the Japanese were as brutal as the NAZIS.

[Kurgast]

Bud i know but it needs to be put up to showthat the Japanese were as brutal as the NAZIS.


The Japanese were very brutal if you happened to be chinese, just like the Nazis were brutal if you were Jew or Russian.

The Japanese had been learning from the Chinese since Tang dynasty and the last thing they ever learn is to treat fellow beings with respect.

After defeating the Russian Far East fleet in WWI and gained much of Chinese territories prior to WWII, they think they can be master of whole Asia and yet they considered themselves as non- Asian.

Well that was all past now,but we need to see the photos as to remind that what can happen if the weak cannot unite and protect themselves.

[Rising Sun*]

By the way, was it really necessary to post some of those pictures?

Probably, as long as some ruling Japanese try to prevent publication of photos and films of Japan's depredations in Nanking, and elsewhere. The pictures should be pasted on every lamp post in every country which mistakenly thinks that Japan is run by people who, like the rest of the world, abhor what Japan did during WWII.

Film on Japan's 'sword spirit' revives war debate

Apr 1, 2008

Beijing - An award-winning documentary on Japan's controversial Yasukuni shrine faced an uncertain future on Tuesday amid threats against the makers and cancellations by worried cinema operators.

'The reaction in Japanese society is more and more intense,' the Chinese director, Li Ying, told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa in Beijing.

Li's film Yasukuni explores the historical and social significance of the Shinto shrine for Japan and its East Asian neighbours.

'This is not a politically confrontational film,' Li said. 'It is a cultural dialogue.'

'I ask a big question. The meaning is in how Japanese society responds, but now they say I have the problem.

'If Japanese society is really like that, it's very dangerous... it's a tragedy,' he said.

At a special showing for lawmakers last month, following a request by conservatives in the ruling Liberal Democratic Party, some asked if the film was 'anti-Japanese' and questioned its funding by the Japan Arts Council.

'No other Japanese film has received pressure like this,' Li said.

Li, 44, is a permanent resident of Japan. 'I've already lived in Japan for 19 years, I've run my film company for 15 years,' he said.

Many Japanese producers, editors and technicians also worked on the film, 'so why can't my film count as a Japanese film,' he said.

The two-hour documentary includes a long section on petitioners from Taiwan, South Korea and Japan's Okinawa island who are trying to remove the names of their relatives from the list of people enshrined at Yasukuni.

The shrine was built in 1869 under Emperor Meiji and today it commemorates the 2.5 million Japanese who have died in wars since 1853, including 14 soldiers convicted as class-A war criminals after World War II.

The focus of Li's film is 90-year-old Kariya Naoji, who for decades crafted the weapons that many believe embody the spirit of those who are honoured at Yasukuni.

About 8,100 swords were forged at Yasukuni from 1933 to 1945, according to the film.

Kariya saw the documentary and was satisfied with it but the ailing swordsmith has also received threats, Li said.

Li began making the film in 1997 after hearing right-wing historians speak at a seminar to mark the 60th anniversary of the Nanjing massacre.

Police at Yasukuni regularly inspected his identity card but did not interfere in his filming, though conservatives seized his film several times over the 10 years it took him to complete the work.

The 123-minute Yasukuni won a best-documentary award in late March at the 32nd Hong Kong film festival, where it had a 'very enthusiastic' reception.

It was also shown at international film festivals in South Korea, Germany and the United States, but Culture Minister Kisaburo Tokai on Tuesday said he regretted the cancellation of screenings by five cinemas in Japan.

The Association of Japanese Directors, to which Li belongs, has also supported his right to freedom of expression.

Li said greater artistic freedom was one of his motivations for living in Japan, after previously making Chinese state television films that were 'not entirely according to my wishes.'

The most controversial scenes in his new film link the Yasukuni swords to the 1937-38 Nanjing massacre, which some Japanese rightists continue to deny, and to a wartime competition between two Japanese officers to be the first to behead 100 people with their swords.

During the showing on March 12 to Japanese lawmakers, who were 'mainly opposed' to the film, some of them asked Li to remove the photographs of the Nanjing massacre.

Li sees 'long-term contradictions in Japanese society' behind the debate over Japan's wartime history.

'It's a tragedy that they want to cut off the ability to reflect,' he said.

At one press conference in Japan last month, Li said he asked journalists, 'Why haven't the Japanese media investigated this issue?' The subsequent reports failed even to mention his question, he said.

He said he travelled back to China from the Hong Kong film festival mainly to be with his father, who is seriously ill in hospital, and planned to return to Tokyo later this week.

He admitted some trepidation about facing the threats of 'political violence' from rightists, while managers of the Tokyo building housing his film company have already asked him to move out.

But Li said he could not stay in China while Chinese and Japanese and colleagues involved in the film bore the brunt of the intimidation.

'We don't know if they (rightists) are going to do something extreme,' he said. 'The other people are all there, so I can only stand with them.' http://www.monstersandcritics.com/movies/features/article_1397895.php/Film_on_Japans_sword_spirit_revives_war_debate

[Rising Sun*]

To balance my last post, it should be noted that the nationalist / fascist elements which continue Japan's wartime mentality in modern form are not representative of the whole of Japanese society or thinking http://www.japanfocus.org/_Li_Ying__Sai_Yoichi-Yasukuni__The_Stage_for_Memory_and_Oblivion/

Alas, they just happen to be be very influential at senior levels of government.

It might also be noted that the Chinese were pretty handy with the sword against their own people. It's not like the Japanese invented beheading. http://beheadings.spaces.live.com/blog/

[Comrade Commisar]

Rape of Nanking isint in any of the japanese school books.

[Chevan]

As far as i know Japans don't deny the Nankin massacre at all. They just doubt in figues 200 000 of victims that traditionally is claims by the Chineses.
The 20 000 is "confirmed" , Japanes think.
I don't know how much it's true, but we know fro sure- not eveything the Commi speak is absolute true:)
Even China's commi.
We know as Goebbels persisted about 250 000 killed in Dresden, but only 25 000 are confirmed.

[Chevan]

Probably, as long as some ruling Japanese try to prevent publication of photos and films of Japan's depredations in Nanking, and elsewhere. The pictures should be pasted on every lamp post in every country which mistakenly thinks that Japan is run by people who, like the rest of the world, abhor what Japan did during WWII.

But not Japanes did a worst things during the wars in 20 centure, mate.
And of course in many of countries today the some peoples isn't even going to admit thier former chiefs commited the crimes.
Look for instance at Baltic states where the Waffen -SS veterans( who helped Nazic very well in baltic Holocaust) go on parades.
And..
Do you really think that Chineses are much better the Japs?
Did you see how they executed their own woman?
http://www.peacehall.com/news/gb/china/2004/12/200412130343.shtml
If they do it now, what did they during ww2?

[Nickdfresh]

As far as i know Japans don't deny the Nankin massacre at all. They just doubt in figues 200 000 of victims that traditionally is claims by the Chineses.
The 20 000 is "confirmed" , Japanes think.
I don't know how much it's true, but we know fro sure- not eveything the Commi speak is absolute true:)
Even China's commi.
We know as Goebbels persisted about 250 000 killed in Dresden, but only 25 000 are confirmed.

The Chinese estimates are based on the observations of Westerners in the city at the time. And in fact, many have criticized the Chinese gov't for themselves largely muting the massacre..

[Rising Sun*]

And of course in many of countries today the some peoples isn't even going to admit thier former chiefs commited the crimes.
Look for instance at Baltic states where the Waffen -SS veterans( who helped Nazic very well in baltic Holocaust) go on parades.


The same could be said of Japan's colonies and conquered territories, notably Korea which provided some of the biggest mongrels on Japan's side.

It's nice for those countries to be able to blame Japan and Germany for what some people from conquered or allied nations did voluntarily, and enjoyed.

[abi]

The Japanese were very brutal if you happened to be chinese, just like the Nazis were brutal if you were Jew or Russian.

The Japanese had been learning from the Chinese since Tang dynasty and the last thing they ever learn is to treat fellow beings with respect.

After defeating the Russian Far East fleet in WWI and gained much of Chinese territories prior to WWII, they think they can be master of whole Asia and yet they considered themselves as non- Asian.

Well that was all past now,but we need to see the photos as to remind that what can happen if the weak cannot unite and protect themselves.


I know that the japs were very brutal in nanking, china. They did the genocide.
The same thing happened too in My country, Indonesia.
soon After the dutch surrendered to the japs, the japs took our land.
They promised a freedom to us if we help them to win ww2 in pasific.
the japs said theselves as the light of asia, the leader of asia, and the defender of asia. Most of our people were happy to Join the japs army.
The japs established the PETA (national army) army in my country to defend our country from the allied and the dutch. Most of the PETA Soldier were indonesian with the japs officer.

After few yeras under japs occupation. The brutality had began. They forced people to slave(romusha), they took a girls and women from the village then they raped them. they did the genocide too.

But in 1945 our national leader Ir. Soekarno and other nationalist were called to Vietnam to negosiate freedom to the japs. but the other party wanted to proclamete the independence as soon as possible. and few of the japs helped us to prepare the independence.
the japs established dokuritsu junbi cosakai and dukuritsu junbi lingkai.
that were some of the japanese-indonesian organization to prepare the proclamation of indonesia,
i think not all of the japs were bad

[Chevan]

The Chinese estimates are based on the observations of Westerners in the city at the time.

I strongly doubt that the Western observers even have the possibility to count the figures of victims in occuped China.Firstly they simply has no reliable way to get a statistic.
Or how do you think they were going to estimate that big massacre?

And in fact, many have criticized the Chinese gov't for themselves largely muting the massacre..
Well many in West also criticize the Official datas about victims of firebombing/a-bombing( especialy revisionists) but hardly we can get thier point s absolute true.
You have to realize - in any country there are a number of nationalists/extremists who always have a tend to overestimate the Violence of their enemies during the war.
I/m not going to say that the somebody here are extremists:)
But the anti-japane feeling still strong among the anglo-saxons and especialy among Australians who suffered a lot from Japanes.
SO this is not easy to be objective in this theme fro some of them.

[Chevan]

Hi abi.
Welcome on the board.
They promised a freedom to us if we help them to win ww2 in pasific.
the japs said theselves as the light of asia, the leader of asia, and the defender of asia. Most of our people were happy to Join the japs army.

That's from we can conclude that Indonesians were quite unhappy under Dutch rule.So they initialy thought the Jap has come to liberate them.
But why so many Indonesians have joined to PETA?Really they hoped to win the "evil White Colonizers" under japane leadership?

[Rising Sun*]

You have to realize - in any country there are a number of nationalists/extremists who always have a tend to overestimate the Violence of their enemies during the war.

At the time, it was probably more a case of the event being exploited by the West for propaganda purposes. The Chinese didn't have much in the way of news outlets in the West that would get the event into newspapers and movie theatres.

But the anti-japane feeling still strong among the anglo-saxons and especialy among Australians who suffered a lot from Japanes.

The only anti-Japanese feeling here, apart from some of the few remaining survivors of the war and their immediate families, is directed towards Japanese denials of their conduct and the ever-present fascist / nationalist elements in Japanese government that threaten to turn back the clock.

Apart from that, we get on quite well with the Japanese people, most of whom don't share the dangerous views of a small proportion of their politicians and commercial / industrial leaders.

SO this is not easy to be objective in this theme fro some of them.

Possibly.

Those of us who know what vicious, brutal, merciless bastards the Japanese were during the war don't have any trouble believing that they carried out the Rape of Nanking, where after all they were just, literally, blooding some of their soldiers.

That doesn't mean we accept the figures, but I don't know that figures mean that much once it's established that a mass atrocity has occurred.

For example, I don't really care whether six or four or two million Jews were exterminated by the Nazis, with the willing assistance of some other Europeans who were just as anti-Semitic. Whatever happened, it was an appalling exercise beyond all comprehension and the culpability of those responsible for it isn't made less bad by reducing the number from six million, nor worse by increasing it. Same with Nanking.

[Rising Sun*]

That's from we can conclude that Indonesians were quite unhappy under Dutch rule.So they initialy thought the Jap has come to liberate them.
But why so many Indonesians have joined to PETA?Really they hoped to win the "evil White Colonizers" under japane leadership?

Many influential Japanese in intellectual, academic, journalistic and commercial circles debated and genuinely believed in the couple of decades before the war that Japan had a mission to liberate Asia from European colonialism.

Which, oddly enough, is the only enduring beneficial consequence of Japan's war, and about the only good to come out of it. Apart from Japan's economic miracle. :rolleyes:

Japan convinced independence leaders and movements in many countries that it was their saviour and that it would give them independence.

Japan just forgot to tell them that the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was based on the notion of Asian nations' independence, upon Japan's terms and for Japan's benefit.

The Dutch and other colonial powers weren't great colonial masters by today's standards, and perhaps not by the standards of the time as observed in the home countries of the colonial powers, but they were pretty much a benevolent regime compared with the Japanese. It just took a long time for some people in occupied territory to work that out after they'd thrown in their lot with the Japanese after believing that Japan would give them independence.

[Ardee]

I don't know how much it's true, but we know fro sure- not everything the Commi speak is absolute true
Even China's commi.

Maybe you were just being sloppy in your language, but this bothered me. I thought at the time Nanking was still under Nationalist control? I admit my knowledge of the Pacific war is much shakier than of the European war (which isn't always so hot either), but I thought the areas under communist control at that time were both rural and negligible, and didn't include any large (if any!) cities. But if it was "communist" that may provide an ideological motivatation of which I was previously unaware of for what happened.

[Chevan]

Maybe you were just being sloppy in your language, but this bothered me. I thought at the time Nanking was still under Nationalist control? I admit my knowledge of the Pacific war is much shakier than of the European war (which isn't always so hot either), but I thought the areas under communist control at that time were both rural and negligible, and didn't include any large (if any!) cities. But if it was "communist" that may provide an ideological motivatation of which I was previously unaware of for what happened.
I can explain.
Firstly i seriously doubt that Pacific war was more shakier then the Eastern European one.
The Asian cruelty can't always compete with Nazic inventions of mass killing.
Indeed at the time Nanking was ALREADY under Japane control, so Nationalists can do nothing.
Soon after he war the Gomindan have been beaten by Communists so hardly they have enough time to calculate all the figures of Japane terror.
The figures of 200 000 killed today shares the Communists powers ( That indeed are pretty Chinas Nationalists too)
How they count their dead i can explane you in one interesting military conflict.
We had a few serious border conflict in 1969
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

In march battels soviets lost 58 soldiers and officers killed( the name all of them are known)
The Chinas estimets were 150.....3000 dead.
Learn the diffrence.I mean how they "calculate" their casualties.
The official Chinas propogand spread something about " few casualties" that of course in nonsense coz Soviet Army had used the Jet Mortars BM-21 "Grad" widely in this conflict.
So i can't get the CHinas figures as absolut truth any more.

[Chevan]

At the time, it was probably more a case of the event being exploited by the West for propaganda purposes. The Chinese didn't have much in the way of news outlets in the West that would get the event into newspapers and movie theatres.



The only anti-Japanese feeling here, apart from some of the few remaining survivors of the war and their immediate families, is directed towards Japanese denials of their conduct and the ever-present fascist / nationalist elements in Japanese government that threaten to turn back the clock.

Apart from that, we get on quite well with the Japanese people, most of whom don't share the dangerous views of a small proportion of their politicians and commercial / industrial leaders.

But mate
'Any country has its small proportion of Crazy Nationalist and some of them even are in the power.And danger views of small proportion of Western neo-fascist don't make us to admit that the West is a evil War's starter.
After that nobody even is going to advise the westernizes what to write in its school textbooks.

Possibly.

Those of us who know what vicious, brutal, merciless bastards the Japanese were during the war don't have any trouble believing that they carried out the Rape of Nanking, where after all they were just, literally, blooding some of their soldiers.

Agree.
But do we russians really have to believe that Germans in East who as you know sometimes were brutal and merciless are just a wild beasts who shoted Russian Civils by Hundreds per day as the Soviet propogand did inspired to us long time ago?

That doesn't mean we accept the figures, but I don't know that figures mean that much once it's established that a mass atrocity has occurred.

For example, I don't really care whether six or four or two million Jews were exterminated by the Nazis, with the willing assistance of some other Europeans who were just as anti-Semitic. Whatever happened, it was an appalling exercise beyond all comprehension and the culpability of those responsible for it isn't made less bad by reducing the number from six million, nor worse by increasing it. Same with Nanking.
Of course you right and nobody deny the mass atrocities , commited by Japs in the China.
The Mass Killing of civils purpose Terrror ( Jews or Chineses) is disgusting and has no justification.And of course you right , this isn' so importaint how exactly many civils have been killed .
But i think there still a difference between the real STatistic and Propogand.Especially if it differ in 10 times.
Why we shall admit the Chinas propogand ONLY becouse we don't like Japs too?( That Also spread about "Evil Imperialist USA" who is making to suffer the poor CHineses in Taiwan, being forced separated by dastard Americans from the Home China:) )

[Kurgast]

[QUOTE=Ardee;133706]Maybe you were just being sloppy in your language, but this bothered me. I thought at the time Nanking was still under Nationalist control?

Well the Japanese wasn't really fantastic warriors. Yes they have some very crack divisions but the rest were just peasant like the chinese. They capitalised on the fact that the communists and Nationalists were fighting and when both greatly weakened, just grabbed the city while the chinese retreated. National leader Chiang always thought that the communists were in their last breath and a final finishing touch can complete the victory. Fighting the Japs can wait and meanwhile traded the land for time.

We know how the Japs were bloody defeated by the Russians under Zhukov in 1939. The Japs, against mechanised forces stood no chance at all.

[Rising Sun*]

But mate
'Any country has its small proportion of Crazy Nationalist and some of them even are in the power.And danger views of small proportion of Western neo-fascist don't make us to admit that the West is a evil War's starter.

We don't need crazy nationalists or neo-fascists to start wars. Bush is not crazy or a nationalist or fascist in the sense the Nazis and Japanese militarists were, but the prick still starts stupid wars, not all of which and quite possibly not the worst of which have even begun yet. :(

I'm a lot more comfortable with a British or American nationalist of the WWII type, excluding the fascist ones, than the Japanese type.

But do we russians really have to believe that Germans in East who as you know sometimes were brutal and merciless are just a wild beasts who shoted Russian Civils by Hundreds per day as the Soviet propogand did inspired to us long time ago?

No, because it wasn't most Germans and even those who were involved in murders and massacres probably weren't wild beasts. As Hannah Arendt observed, there is a banality to evil. But it was some Nazi Germans, and probably some Germans who were just brutes (which every nation and army has) without being Nazis, and some fascists and brutes from other parts of Europe who were serving with the Nazis.

Many Japanese showed varying degrees of mercy and kindness to captured Allied troops and people in occupied territories, and often more than one would expect from the harsh standards imposed upon Japanese troops. No doubt the same is true of the Germans (but probably not the Italians, as too many of them were POWs to get a decent statistical base ;) :D) So, one can't say that all Japanese or Germans were merciless brutes, or kind, but one can point to general conduct by the Japanese in war and occupation and by the Germans in the East which was brutal in the extreme

But i think there still a difference between the real STatistic and Propogand.Especially if it differ in 10 times.

Agree.

It's important for historical purposes to try to arrive at the correct figure, and the figures shouldn't be inflated or deflated to serve the purposes of particular groups.

Why we shall admit the Chinas propogand ONLY becouse we don't like Japs too?

Yes, since 1949 China has its own peculiarities with its presentation of its twentieth century history.

Even though I try to be objective, I'm probably a lot more willing to believe the Japanese behaved badly anywhere between 1931-45 because I've absorbed a certain view of them from Australia's contact with them, as have many other Australians, but a white South African or a Brazilian who has none of that history, although both were Allied nations, might take more convincing. None of us can separate ourselves from our national experiences, or at least from our perspective of our national experiences.

( That Also spread about "Evil Imperialist USA" who is making to suffer the poor CHineses in Taiwan, being forced separated by dastard Americans from the Home China:) )

Yes, the Taiwanese certainly look downtrodden and oppressed by the US and really resentful that the US won't let them join PRC. ;) :D

[abi]

Hi abi.
Welcome on the board.

That's from we can conclude that Indonesians were quite unhappy under Dutch rule.So they initialy thought the Jap has come to liberate them.
But why so many Indonesians have joined to PETA?Really they hoped to win the "evil White Colonizers" under japane leadership?

yeah...Most of them were unhappy under the dutch rule. the dutch ruled my country about 350 years. Then in 1942 the japs came to our land Off course the indonesians mostly the nationalist were happy because the japs fought the dutch. Same as the nationalist. Yeah many of them hope together with the japs they can take the dutch out of indonesia. Not only PETA. There were Heiho (japs rainforcement and supply)
Fujinkai(Women Brigade)
Keibodan(local police)
and Seinendan (student corps)

But on other side the japs did the brutality as same as nanking. Genocide, raping girls, forced labours, etc
later few of the PETA soldier turned itu rebels and against the japs rule. so i think the japs said to much promised propaganda to us

[Ardee]

Okay, I guess I have to be careful about use of idiom here! I'll try to be more clear...

Firstly i seriously doubt that Pacific war was more shakier then the Eastern European one.

When I said my knowledge of the Pacific war was shakier than that of the European one, it was a way of saying I knew less about that aspect of the war, that theater -- I wasn't suggesting there were more earthquakes or more men trembling in their boots or something like that! :)

Indeed at the time Nanking was ALREADY under Japane control, so Nationalists can do nothing.

Of course, once the Japanese took over, they were the ones in control, not any of the Chinese factions. My original point had been to question the meaning of the previous comment:

I don't know how much it's true, but we know fro sure- not everything the Commi speak is absolute true
Even China's commi.

I was wondering what the "Commi speak" had to do with the conversation here: I had thought the Nationalists (i.e., either the central government or a war lord who was, or at least pretended to be, loyal to the central government) had at least nominal control over the city before the Japanese took the city. Certainly, the presence of German ambassadors, etc., indicates Nationalist control.... So, since they were the ones involved, it only makes sense that the Nationalists, not the "Commies," were the ones behind any contemporary causality estimates. (Yes, I know about the western ambassadors being the ones who witnessed, reported etc., but it would still be the Chinese (those who had previously controlled the city) who either supported the estimates, or not. I am ignoring here any motivations for either telling the truth or lying -- I'm just saying they were the ones who should have been in the position to verify/deny. So... what do the Commies have to do with it? Was the original poster saying that the post-war Red Government was the one supplying the casualty estimates? But the international uproar about Nanking preceded the war...so again, what do the
Chinese communists have to do with things?


Soon after he war the Gomindan have been beaten by Communists so hardly they have enough time to calculate all the figures of Japane terror.
The figures of 200 000 killed today shares the Communists powers ( That indeed are pretty Chinas Nationalists too)
How they count their dead i can explane you in one interesting military conflict.
We had a few serious border conflict in 1969
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-So...order_conflict

If I understood what you were saying here - for example, I have no idea of whom Gomindan was, and I'm too busy to google him and the other-items-I'm-not-sure-of at the moment -- you seem to be saying the Nationalists were unable to provide casualty estimates after the war, because of the events of the Chinese civil war. And you therefore seem to credit the Communists for providing the 200,000 casualty figure. And then you pointed out that the Chinese causality estimates for some border conflicts with the USSR were off/inflated. But again -- weren't they contemporary estimates of civilian loses in Nanking? What were those estimates; how different were they from the 200,000 figure being cited as coming from the "Commies"??


In march battels soviets lost 58 soldiers and officers killed( the name all of them are known)
The Chinas estimets were 150.....3000 dead.
Learn the diffrence.I mean how they "calculate" their casualties.
The official Chinas propogand spread something about " few casualties" that of course in nonsense coz Soviet Army had used the Jet Mortars BM-21 "Grad" widely in this conflict.

I'm not sure if the Chinese estimates you cited were for casualties they themselves had, or whether this was their claim of how much damage they inflicted on the USSR. But either way, battlefield estimates are always suspect. They go through official censors, who may have political/morale reasons for either exaggerating or minimizing casualties.

So i can't get the CHinas figures as absolut truth any more.

So, again -- my question wasn't about the "truth" so much as it was about the source. I'm not clear on what the role the Chinese Communists had here, why anything they say matters, one way or the other. The Rape of Nanking was viscous enough to cause international outcry before WWII became a world war; what casualty figures was that outrage based on? Surely those weren't supplied by the commies! And, since they were closer in time to the actual events, the general rules of historians should give those estimates more weight than those coming after the war!

Sorry that this got so much more long-winded than I intended. As I said in the original post, the "commie speak" quote made me wonder if I had misunderstood the situation: if the communists had somehow been in control of the city before the Japanese came, to my mind at least, a whole new range of interpretation of what happened opens up.

[Chevan]

I was wondering what the "Commi speak" had to do with the conversation here: I had thought the Nationalists (i.e., either the central government or a war lord who was, or at least pretended to be, loyal to the central government) had at least nominal control over the city before the Japanese took the city. Certainly, the presence of German ambassadors, etc., indicates Nationalist control.... So, since they were the ones involved, it only makes sense that the Nationalists, not the "Commies," were the ones behind any contemporary causality estimates. (Yes, I know about the western ambassadors being the ones who witnessed, reported etc., but it would still be the Chinese (those who had previously controlled the city) who either supported the estimates, or not. I am ignoring here any motivations for either telling the truth or lying -- I'm just saying they were the ones who should have been in the position to verify/deny. So... what do the Commies have to do with it? Was the original poster saying that the post-war Red Government was the one supplying the casualty estimates? But the international uproar about Nanking preceded the war...so again, what do the
Chinese communists have to do with things?

The commie have to do with it undirectly.
Just don't misunderstand me , i/m not a sort of japane revisionists.
My considerations were not about Chinas commi in 1937 (during rape of Nankin) but in post war period, when Chinas authorities cover ( or even ignore) the true statistic about their own casualties.
You right the western ambassadors being the ones who witnessed the massacre.
The figures of 300 000 of victims is coming from the West actualy.
But how do yo think they have got those statistic?
Did they really counted the bodies, asked the victim's relatives ,checked the Japane military documents in 1937-45?
Hardly.
All their statistical estimates are pretty rough and can't be even correct.
The only thig that we know for sure- The mass genocide WAS.
Accordng the contemporary statistic - the victims of the WW2 were about 40 mln( +/- 10 mln) we still don't know for sure.
Although HUNDREDS OF our Historians study the archives by decades.
Also the JEwish Holocaust still advocates the figures of victims 6 +/- 1 million.
Although we have a tonns of documents and archives with list of names- but nobody still don't know the true statistic.
Keep in mind the ban to any activity in China during the Japane occupation , plus the chaos of Civil war 1946-49.Hardly the Nationalists had time to research to massacre( BTW the ANtionalists is rather incorrect term IMO, the CHinas commi also are pretty Nationalsist too)
So who can guaranty he know the truth?
Japane themself advocating the figures of 30-40 000 of killed( but they didn't include the executed POWs in this list). Western observers is saing about 300 000.
How can you know which one is true for sure?

If I understood what you were saying here - for example, I have no idea of whom Gomindan was, and I'm too busy to google him and the other-items-I'm-not-sure-of at the moment

Sorry my mistake.
Not Gomindant but Kuomintang - the party of Chinas NAtionalists.

-- you seem to be saying the Nationalists were unable to provide casualty estimates after the war, because of the events of the Chinese civil war.

I/m not just saing they were unable to provide statistic, but they even contributed into the Chinas Civil Terror a lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuomintang#War
They pretty killed their communist Chineses , inspite of the Japane outside attack.
Both side - communists and nationalsist contributed to a Terror of civils a lot.
Now now their propogand hang up it on the Japs.

But again -- weren't they contemporary estimates of civilian loses in Nanking? What were those estimates; how different were they from the 200,000 figure being cited as coming from the "Commies"??

That' the problem , nowhere.
They simply repeat the Western propogand about 300 000 , but don't even care to calculate the figures itself.
As well they don't care to calculate and report the figures of victims of Great Communist "experiments" since 1950.
I'm not sure if the Chinese estimates you cited were for casualties they themselves had, or whether this was their claim of how much damage they inflicted on the USSR.
But either way, battlefield estimates are always suspect. They go through official censors, who may have political/morale reasons for either exaggerating or minimizing casualties.

True.
But today we have no reason to cover our the figures of killed through 40 years - 58 mans.
So why the Chinases have it?Why still they hide the figures?

So, again -- my question wasn't about the "truth" so much as it was about the source. I'm not clear on what the role the Chinese Communists had here, why anything they say matters, one way or the other. The Rape of Nanking was viscous enough to cause international outcry before WWII became a world war; what casualty figures was that outrage based on? Surely those weren't supplied by the commies! And, since they were closer in time to the actual events, the general rules of historians should give those estimates more weight than those coming after the war!

I think you right here more then you thought.
We can be sure for their datas after the war.Becouse neither Chians Nationalists not Communist have not provided us with True, objective statistic.
Or even is going to provide us sometning more then their mutual-hate propogand.
Indeed one needs a time to learn the true , ask the witnesses and est
Or are you going to say that if you see the killed peoples- you can know for sure the Scale of Terror?
Allies found out the ONLY few thousands of dead bodies in Nazic concentration camps- does it mean the ONLY those people have been killed there?
As it may be seemed for witnesses.
And i think that "international outcry" is rather subjective concept.
For instance when GErmans have PUBLICALY executed during FEW days about 30 000 of jews ( woman and children) in Babi Yar ( Kiev, Ukraine) in august 1941 - where were the f...ng "international outcry"?

Sorry that this got so much more long-winded than I intended. As I said in the original post, the "commie speak" quote made me wonder if I had misunderstood the situation: if the communists had somehow been in control of the city before the Japanese came, to my mind at least, a whole new range of interpretation of what happened opens up.
I do agree with you point in general.
But i can trust both for figures of Chinas Nationalists, (who pretty added in terror themself) , post war communists, and even the Western witnesses. Becouse this is TOO hard for them to learn the true statistic in occuped China.
But i don't also believe to Japanese with their "confirmed" 30 000 of killed.
For 1 mln Nankin in 1937 this is suspectively small figure.

[alfiechan]

Well, the Japanese rightists and the LDP politicians are in bed together and have been there for the last 150 years. There are citizen groups in Japan and some outspoken Japanese WW2 veterans that try to get the message across but they are threatened by rightist thugs.It is sad to see that the truth is denied and supressed here and that most younger Japanese are completely unaware of what their grandfathers did!

[Rising Sun*]

Well, the Japanese rightists and the LDP politicians are in bed together and have been there for the last 150 years.

Would you include the zaibatsu in this group?

There are citizen groups in Japan and some outspoken Japanese WW2 veterans that try to get the message across but they are threatened by rightist thugs.

I'm aware of the actions of Professor Saburo Ienaga and his supporters but I haven't heard before of WWII veterans' groups joining in the attempts at a more open history. Do you have any examples?

It is sad to see that the truth is denied and supressed here and that most younger Japanese are completely unaware of what their grandfathers did!

It's not just younger Japanese who lack knowledge of the war, and who outside Japan often have a distorted view of it from the little factual (often wrong) information they gain from films and television fiction.

[alfiechan]

Hi, Yes, I include the Zaibatsu.
Professor Ienaga is very popular outside Japan but there also are several servicemen who went public. Some you can see on the documentary "Horror in the East" (BBC) on youtube or "In the Name of the Emperor" also on youtube. There are a few others who tour the country. A couple of years ago there was an exhibition on unit 731 and several ex members made speeches there.