Georgia in Crisis: Major Fighting Erupts with Russia

[Nickdfresh]

Russia, Georgia troops battle on border
Hundreds of deaths alleged in region's capital as tanks, aircraft deploy
MSNBC News Services
updated 12:46 p.m. ET, Fri., Aug. 8, 2008

TSKHINVALI, Georgia - Russia sent tanks and reportedly bombed Georgian air bases Friday after Georgia launched a major military offensive Friday to retake the breakaway province of South Ossetia, threatening to ignite a broader conflict

Georgia’s pro-Western president said the two countries were at war, while the Bush administration urged both sides to reach a truce and said it was sending an envoy to the region.

South Ossetia’s rebel leader Eduard Kokoity claimed there were ”hundreds of dead civilians” in the region's capital of Tskhinvali, Russia’s Interfax news agency quoted him as saying. The fighting is the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de facto independence in a war that ended in 1992.

The roar of warplanes and the explosions of heavy shells were deafening around Tskhinvali. Many houses were ablaze.

“I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars,” said Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia. “It’s impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged.”

The main hospital in Tskhinvali had ceased functioning and ambulances were unable to reach wounded civilians, the International Red Cross reported.

"As a result of many hours of shelling from heavy guns, the town is practically destroyed," Marat Kulakhmetov, commander of Russian peacekeepers in the territory, earlier told Interfax by telephone from Tskhinvali.

Russian artillery near capital
A senior Russian military commander said parts of Russia’s 58th army were outside the capital, where fighting raged between Russian-backed separatists and Georgian forces sent in on Friday to seize it.

"Georgian troop positions firing on Tskhinvali and peacekeepers were suppressed by artillery fire and tank units of the 58th Army, which are outside the capital of South Ossetia," said Russian Army Col. Igor Konashenkov.

Ten Russian peacekeepers were killed and 30 wounded when their barracks were hit in Georgian shelling, said Russian Ground Forces spokesman Col. Igor Konashenkov. Russia has soldiers in South Ossetia as peacekeeping forces but Georgia alleges they back the separatists.

Georgia's foreign ministry said Russian jets destroyed several Georgian military aircraft and inflicted unspecified casualties. It said that Russian aircraft also bombed another base in Bolnisi.

Rustavi 2 television says four people were killed and five others wounded at the Marneuli air base.

Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili said 150 Russian tanks, armored personnel carriers and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia from neighboring Russia.

“Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory,” Saakashvili told CNN, calling on Washington to help.

A White House spokesman said that President Bush and Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin had discussed the situation in Beijing, where both are attending the Olympic Games.

Bush later pledged U.S. support for Georgia's territorial integrity. "I want to reiterate on his behalf that the United States supports Georgia's territorial integrity and we call for an immediate cease-fire," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

"We urge all parties, Georgians, South Ossetians and Russians, to de-escalate the tension and avoid conflict," she added.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov accused Georgia of driving people from their homes. “We are receiving reports that a policy of ethnic cleansing was being conducted in villages in South Ossetia, the number of refugees is climbing, the panic is growing, people are trying to save their lives,” he said.

Georgia has allied itself with the West and is pushing for membership in NATO, a bid strongly backed by the Bush administration. It lies at the heart of a region emerging as a vital energy transit route.

World distracted by Olympics?
The fighting broke out when much of the world’s attention was focused on the start of the Olympic Games and many leaders were on their way to Beijing.

Saakashvili, who insists his government’s military action was provoked, noted the timing in an interview with CNN. “Most decision makers have gone for the holidays,” he said. “Brilliant moment to attack a small country.”

Speaking earlier on Georgian television, Saakashvili accused Russia of sending aircraft to bomb Georgian territory, which Russia denied.

Putin did, however, warn that the Georgian attack would draw retaliation and his defense ministry pledged to protect South Ossetians, most of whom have Russian citizenship.

Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. The country has angered Russia by seeking NATO membership — a bid Moscow regards as part of a Western effort to weaken its influence in the region.

Georgia also has about 2,000 troops in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor to coalition forces after the United States and Britain. On Friday, it said it would redeploy 1,000 of those troops to South Ossetia.

Georgia’s president said Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities.

“A full-scale aggression has been launched against Georgia,” Saakashvili said in a televised statement. He also announced a full military mobilization with reservists being called into action.

Seven civilians were wounded when three Russian Su-24 jet bombers flew into Georgia and bombed the town of Gori and the villages of Kareli and Variani, Deputy Interior Minister Eka Sguladze said at a briefing.

She said that four Russian jets later bombed Gori, the hometown of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, but that raid didn’t cause any casualties.

Some villagers fled into Russia.

“I saw them (the Georgians) shelling my village,” said Maria, who gave only her first name. She said she and other villagers spent the night in a field and then fled toward the Russian border as the fighting escalated.

Russian official criticizes ‘dirty adventure’
A senior Russian diplomat in charge of the South Ossetian conflict, Yuri Popov, dismissed the Georgian claims of Russian bombings as misinformation, the RIA-Novosti news agency reported.

Russia’s defense ministry denounced the Georgian attack as a “dirty adventure.”

“Blood shed in South Ossetia will weigh on their conscience,” the ministry said in a statement posted on its Web site. “We will protect our peacekeepers and Russian citizens,” it said without elaboration.

Russia’s President Dmitry Medvedev later chaired a session of his Security Council in the Kremlin, vowing that Moscow will protect Russian citizens.

“In accordance with the constitution and federal law, I, as president of Russia, am obliged to protect lives and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are located,” Medvedev said, according to Russian news reports. “We won’t allow the death of our compatriots to go unpunished.”

Saakashvili long has pledged to restore Tbilisi’s rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and built up ties with Moscow.

Worsening relations
Relations between Georgia and Russia worsened notably this year as Georgia pushed to join NATO and Russia dispatched additional peacekeeper forces to Abkhazia.

The Georgian attack came just hours after Saakashvili announced a unilateral cease-fire in a television broadcast late Thursday in which he also urged South Ossetian separatist leaders to enter talks on resolving the conflict.

Georgian officials later blamed South Ossetian separatists for thwarting the cease-fire by shelling Georgian villages in the area.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26080747/)

[Churchill]

I heard about this on BBC World... Think the Russians want to take back some of the Soviet land?

[Drake]

We'll see if the russians just expell the georgian army from ossetia as nato did in kosovo with the serbs or if they push into the rest of georgia.

[Chevan]

I heard about this on BBC World... Think the Russians want to take back some of the Soviet land?
A bul...t.
Just Osetians did n't wish to come back to Georgia.Who pretty genocided them in 1992-93.
I saw a couple of CNN reports about it.
Pure Cold war propogand.
The EuroNews is more or less objective.

[Nickdfresh]

Genocide you say?

[Chevan]

No ,of course.
Osetians say it.

[alephh]

Well, after years of ceaseless provoking, Russia finally got their conflict. Georgia managed to stay cool surprisingly long time, considering they week after week endured attacks by Russian-backed separatists (some say terrorists) in their own country.

Remember: Almost all the countries in the world (except Russia) have admitted that South-Ossetia is legally part of Georgia and that they can do whatever they want in their own country, so the Russian decision to send their troops in Georgia equals Russia sending their troops to attack United States, France or any other independent country.

"Funniest" part is that when Chechenia wanted a little bit of independence Russia cruelly crushed it, and now that Ossetia wants some independence Russia supports it ;-D Chechenia should start another uprising because "clearly Russia wants each and every area to gain their independence" ;-D

Too bad for US/EU that the only pipeline not controlled by Russia/Iran goes through Georgia, and if Russia gets chokehold of it, it won't be happy times for western world.

Remember that dictator, oh sorry, prime minister Putin immediately declared - without needing to consult Russian President or Russian Parliament - "a real war has broken out." (no wonder most of the russians say in polls that they think Putin still has all the power)

It was also damn funny (and eating away Russia's credibility) that even when Internet/tv/etc were filled with photos/footage of Russian aircrafts bombing Georgia, Russia still continued to claim that "we haven't done any air attacks" %-D

After Russian President Medvedev said Russian troops are there to protect civilians, reports started to pour in from red cross members that Russians are bombing civilians (women, kids) in Poti, and Reuters staff reported that civilians (women, kids) are bombarded by Russians in Gor. I guess one could argue that after civilians are killed and buried six feet under they genuinely and finally are "protected".

http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135238466760.jpeg

Pic: Georgian woman in Gor (faa-aaa-aaar away from war zone) experiences some Russian "civilian protection" in the form of airstrike.

_

[Chevan]

Oh come on alepthh - this is TOO banal and TOO foolish to blame the ONLY Russia in the 20-years Georgian-Osetian bloody ethnical conflict.
Remember: Almost all the countries in the world (except Russia) have admitted that South-Ossetia is legally part of Georgia and that they can do whatever they want in their own country, so the Russian decision to send their troops in Georgia equals Russia sending their troops to attack United States, France or any other independent country.
Oh really?
So why almost all states of so called " the world" ( including the Finland) voted to tear the Serbian land into the pieces last year?Why "all the states" has admitted that Kosovo is an independent state, but Osetia is not?
Why the Osetia should be the part of the state that genocided them during the previous war?
It was also damn funny (and eating away Russia's credibility) that even when Internet/tv/etc were filled with photos/footage of Russian aircrafts bombing Georgia, Russia still continued to claim that "we haven't done any air attacks" %-D

Oh not internet but ONLY rushophobian part of it:(
The "internet " that repeat just the couple of photos of Georgian victims.
Kepp silence about 1600 killed civils in Tshinvaly and ethnical cleanings in the villages , cuptured by Georgian army. during last nigts and days unfair Georgian attack with "Grad" Jet Mortar, Su-25 and Howitzers.
The Europen channel Euronews has demonstrated all of that facts pretty clear including the rise of humanitartian catastrophe in Osetia.

[Chevan]

Pic: Georgian woman in Gor (faa-aaa-aaar away from war zone) experiences some Russian "civilian protection" in the form of airstrike.

_
Specially for whom have the "limited biased internet".
So called "faa-aaaa-aaar Gori" is a place of Georgian military base and airfield, where from the GEorgian Su-25 taking off to bomb civils in the Tshinvaly.
The distance between the Tshinvaly and Gore is no more 30 km- very close for tactical aviation.

[alephh]

Man, seriously, I love Russia (ask any of my friends), I think that Russia had/has the best authors and artists in the world. And the sense of nostalgia, mmm... :-)

But I just cannot stand the way Russia often fails to output any fact based news/information/etc.

So if it's totally ok for state responsible for hundreds of thousands of people (Russia) to produce out-of-this-world information by pretty insanely selective methods, why cannot I do the same on a smaller scale? ;-D

It's also seems that Russia really just don't care about the poor South-Ossetia at all, every time South-Ossetia request something (like recognizing South-Ossetia as an independent country), Russia just crushes their hopes, and Putin starts to explain how he really really would like to add the South-Ossetia area to the mighty Russian empire. In my eyes that's not caring about (South)-Ossetia, that's about seizing more land to your own empire.

And sure, Georgia has done bad things in South Ossetia (just like Russia has done bad things in South Ossetia, and just like South Ossetia has done bad things to Georgians), but too bad that not too many outside Russian state-owned news stations seem to have noticed the "ethnical cleanings" - sometimes even not those living in the very villages in the very moment when Russia claims that they are under ethnical cleanings.

You see the problem here: when information provided by Russia has been proved to be total b*llsh*t so many times during the recent years, it just completely erases any credibility about anything they say.

And about Serbia:

Huge number of free countries in the world got enough reliable information from hundreds of different sources about what was going on (really bad things) in the Serbia, and warned them over and over and over and over again, year after year. Serbia didn't listen. Before those really bad things, world just didn't care about Kosovo wanting to be independent because it was legally part of Serbia, and they could do anything with Kosova as long as it wasn't direct killing process. They crossed the line, many times, badly, and everybody (in the free countries) knew about it. So they (eventually) paid the price.

But hey, I totally understand that Serbians feel pissed. And of unrelated note: I think they are the country with most talented teams in ball-and-skills-related-sports, like soccer, basketball, etc.

But here's the difference: South-Ossetia have requested many times to be independent - and Russia has always been totally against that. Let me make it clear here: RUSSIA IS AGAINST INDEPENDENT SOUTH-OSSETIA. Totally. And it seems that Russia is against their independence now too because they just won't acknowledge their independence, no matter how many times South-Ossetia requests it. And South-Ossetia just moments ago requested Russia to acknowledge them, and Russia totally skipped that request immediately. So what the hell Russia is doing there? Protecting their citizens, come on...

There are so many (foreign/decent/intelligence) people in South-Ossetia that if Georgia really started to mass murder people there, several countries would get several reports about it. And they would act against Georgia - just the like they did against Serbia. But nothing like that is reported - except by the very shaky Russian sources - nobody else seems to be seeing it even if they live there. So, no reason for any country on this planet to attack Georgia.

One difference between Russia and many many many countries is this: In Finland, France, US, UK, EU, etc... you can request money from authorities to write a book about how those authorities suck, and you have a decent chance to get funds. Any system which gives money to a person who wants to beat the hell out of that very system, has to be a very strong system. And in those kind of systems, information (for the majority) tends to be correct, because outright lies are fiercely discredited. Couple of years ago several Finnish groups thinking that "EU really sucks", asked and received funds from EU to travel to Bryssels to demonstrate publicly against EU. I do not see that kind of stuff happening in Russia, where those who criticize the system/Putin/etc way too often end up dead or in prison.


_

[Nickdfresh]

Oh come on alepthh - this is TOO banal and TOO foolish to blame the ONLY Russia in the 20-years Georgian-Osetian bloody ethnical conflict.

I agree with this. I've read in the "biased Western media" that it was the Georgians that launched an all out artillery strike on Ossetian separatists AFTER both parties agreed to a ceasefire...

Oh really?
So why almost all states of so called " the world" ( including the Finland) voted to tear the Serbian land into the pieces last year?Why "all the states" has admitted that Kosovo is an independent state, but Osetia is not?
Why the Osetia should be the part of the state that genocided them during the previous war?

Oh not internet but ONLY rushophobian part of it:(
The "internet " that repeat just the couple of photos of Georgian victims.
Kepp silence about 1600 killed civils in Tshinvaly and ethnical cleanings in the villages , cuptured by Georgian army. during last nigts and days unfair Georgian attack with "Grad" Jet Mortar, Su-25 and Howitzers.
The Europen channel Euronews has demonstrated all of that facts pretty clear including the rise of humanitartian catastrophe in Osetia.


But the Russian gov't seems to be be continuing the carnage and expanding the scope of the attacks well beyond the Ossetia territory in dispute...

And I was wondering what the origin of the charge of genocide against the Georgians originates...

[RifleMan20]

Hey, look what this airsoft forum sent me, this is extreamly wierd, BTW it involves this so its not off topic of the off topic topic.....you know wat i mean.


Hello RifleMan20,

As you probably already know (if you’ve been around long enough) here at AirsoftForum.com (ASF), we don’t normally allow political discussions as they are usually heated, pointless, and circular. I also appreciate the fact that many of you are too young to even care about world news or politics, so we normally don’t comment or alert you of issues unless they are major.

Additionally, we announced the launch of our new Civil Defense website a few weeks ago specifically for the purpose of helping people prepare for terrorist attacks and other disasters. If you missed that announcement for some reason, here it is:
http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/Airsoft-Game-You-t119402.html

You should take a look at the above topic if you have any interest in world news, being prepared for terrorist attacks, or any other disasters like I am about to tell...

Today is 08/08/08 and the beginning of the Olympics in China as most of you know, but strangely enough and shortly after the commencing of the Olympics this morning, Russia has began a full out attack on the country of Georgia just north of Iran and Iraq.

This is not a joke and pretty serious so I implore you pay attention to what is going on over there as this could very well be the beginning of WWIII. Now before a lot of you start in with the conspiracy crap, stop to educate yourself before speaking on stuff you have no idea about.

The United States has thousands of Marines, Army and Special Forces over there already supporting allied forces. Russia has already told us, NATO and UN Forces (3 months ago) to back off and pull our troops out of the surrounding areas or they will use preemptive nuclear strikes against our allied forces.

This is an all-out war with US backed allied forces fighting Russia and is pretty serious business and will most likely affect us here in the USA both directly and indirectly as this escalates.

The building conflict over there has been in the news for months with little innuendo news stories popping up here and there about how the US wants to go into Iran (which is backed by Russia and China). We have also been hearing how Israel (which is backed by the USA) and Iran have been in a pissing match for some time now and that is also heating up over there and we could very possibly go to war with Iran in the next few months, but then today ‘all of hell is breaking loose’ over there in Georgia, just north of Iran.

As I said earlier, this is not a joke and I encourage you to pay attention to what’s happening over there. But if you couldn’t care less, that’s cool too – just delete this email now. I’m simply trying to get a message out to the thousands of people who do care and if you’re not one of them – that’s fine – don’t bite my head off for sending you this – I’m sending it to everyone :-)

I sent a similar email (as this one) to our 300+ YCD members a couple of hours ago and that is where we will be discussing this topic. Normally when I send out an ASF announcement, I allow you to click on a link that sends you to the topic so you can reply on the ASF website, but not this time. There will not be any discussion about this on ASF as we don’t discuss politics or world news there unless it relates to Airsoft in some way and this doesn’t. If you want to talk about this or make a comment, please continue this discussion on the YCD website: http://www.yourcivildefense.com/board/index.php?showtopic=300

In closing I want to say thanks for taking the time to read through this. I will not be receiving or responding to emails at this time, so if you want to get a message to me about this, you must post your message on the board as I have not checked my email in months.

Please turn on CNN right now to hear what’s being reported about this in our main stream news. Please also tune in www.WTPRN.com (We The People Radio Network) to hear the alternative news. You can also find other alternative news such as the BBC and other outside sources if you look for it.

Please empower yourself with knowledge of what is going on over there. If you can hang out in front of your PC for awhile or spend some time on the telephone, please tune in WTPRN for alternative news that isn’t being reported here in the USA. You can listen by either telephone or internet: http://wtprn.com/listen.shtml or listen the live broadcast via telephone: 1-512-485-9010

Belfast Telegraph, World News:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/georgia-russia-has-invaded-and-we-are-under-attack-13934899.html

CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html?eref=ib_topstories

Other sources via Google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=russia+attack+georgia

This is a VERY Big Deal – Please pay attention. If you would like to comment on this, please click the following link to continue this discussion at YourCivilDefense.com:
http://www.yourcivildefense.com/board/index.php?showtopic=300

HOWEVER - PLEASE KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE POSTING NONSENSE, (you will only do that by researching both sides of the issue). Otherwise, don’t be surprised if knee-jerk posts or replies are simply deleted without explanation.

-admin

Talk about paranoid. And any Russians on here, I don't believe much about this letter so don't think wrong.

[Nickdfresh]

Man, seriously, I love Russia (ask any of my friends), I think that Russia had/has the best authors and artists in the world. And the sense of nostalgia, mmm... :-)

But I just cannot stand the way Russia often fails to output any fact based news/information/etc.

So if it's totally ok for state responsible for hundreds of thousands of people (Russia) to produce out-of-this-world information by pretty insanely selective methods, why cannot I do the same on a smaller scale? ;-D

It's also seems that Russia really just don't care about the poor South-Ossetia at all, every time South-Ossetia request something (like recognizing South-Ossetia as an independent country), Russia just crushes their hopes, and Putin starts to explain how he really really would like to add the South-Ossetia area to the mighty Russian empire. In my eyes that's not caring about (South)-Ossetia, that's about seizing more land to your own empire.

And sure, Georgia has done bad things in South Ossetia (just like Russia has done bad things in South Ossetia, and just like South Ossetia has done bad things to Georgians), but too bad that not too many outside Russian state-owned news stations seem to have noticed the "ethnical cleanings" - sometimes even not those living in the very villages in the very moment when Russia claims that they are under ethnical cleanings.

You see the problem here: when information provided by Russia has been proved to be total b*llsh*t so many times during the recent years, it just completely erases any credibility about anything they say.

And about Serbia:

Huge number of free countries in the world got enough reliable information from hundreds of different sources about what was going on (really bad things) in the Serbia, and warned them over and over and over and over again, year after year. Serbia didn't listen. Before those really bad things, world just didn't care about Kosovo wanting to be independent because it was legally part of Serbia, and they could do anything with Kosova as long as it wasn't direct killing process. They crossed the line, many times, badly, and everybody (in the free countries) knew about it. So they (eventually) paid the price.

But hey, I totally understand that Serbians feel pissed. And of unrelated note: I think they are the country with most talented teams in ball-and-skills-related-sports, like soccer, basketball, etc.

But here's the difference: South-Ossetia have requested many times to be independent - and Russia has always been totally against that. Let me make it clear here: RUSSIA IS AGAINST INDEPENDENT SOUTH-OSSETIA. Totally. And it seems that Russia is against their independence now too because they just won't acknowledge their independence, no matter how many times South-Ossetia requests it. And South-Ossetia just moments ago requested Russia to acknowledge them, and Russia totally skipped that request immediately. So what the hell Russia is doing there? Protecting their citizens, come on...

There are so many (foreign/decent/intelligence) people in South-Ossetia that if Georgia really started to mass murder people there, several countries would get several reports about it. And they would act against Georgia - just the like they did against Serbia. But nothing like that is reported - except by the very shaky Russian sources - nobody else seems to be seeing it even if they live there. So, no reason for any country on this planet to attack Georgia.

One difference between Russia and many many many countries is this: In Finland, France, US, UK, EU, etc... you can request money from authorities to write a book about how those authorities suck, and you have a decent chance to get funds. Any system which gives money to a person who wants to beat the hell out of that very system, has to be a very strong system. And in those kind of systems, information (for the majority) tends to be correct, because outright lies are fiercely discredited. Couple of years ago several Finnish groups thinking that "EU really sucks", asked and received funds from EU to travel to Bryssels to demonstrate publicly against EU. I do not see that kind of stuff happening in Russia, where those who criticize the system/Putin/etc way too often end up dead or in prison.


_

Spot on.

[Drake]

According to our Spiegel magazine it seems as if the Russians actually do have other intentions than just defending the Ossetians, they seem to have ground troops in purely georgian territory now. Sorry to tell it to you Chevan, but now you're officially the evil ones in this mess, no matter who started the actual shooting this time.

[Egorka]

According to our Spiegel magazine it seems as if the Russians actually do have other intentions than just defending the Ossetians, they seem to have ground troops in purely georgian territory now.
Yes, "it seems as if".... But who knows... maybe...
Can you specify which territories were mentioned in Spiegel?

[Chevan]

Man, seriously, I love Russia (ask any of my friends), I think that Russia had/has the best authors and artists in the world. And the sense of nostalgia, mmm... :-)

Whom of your frined might i ask - just if the Fennica:)He loves russia i know:)
OK, if serious, do you really think that to DEFEND your citizents from enemy is a nostalgia ?

But I just cannot stand the way Russia often fails to output any fact based news/information/etc.

So if it's totally ok for state responsible for hundreds of thousands of people (Russia) to produce out-of-this-world information by pretty insanely selective methods, why cannot I do the same on a smaller scale? ;-D

you can of cource.
But please do not pretend that this is ONLY true poit, OK:)

It's also seems that Russia really just don't care about the poor South-Ossetia at all, every time South-Ossetia request something (like recognizing South-Ossetia as an independent country), Russia just crushes their hopes, and Putin starts to explain how he really really would like to add the South-Ossetia area to the mighty Russian empire. In my eyes that's not caring about (South)-Ossetia, that's about seizing more land to your own empire.

OK good point.
I/m agree with you .
Indeed Putin refuse a to recognize S. Osetia on political resaons.
Becouse as may be you know the USA has supported Georgian in this matter ( Georgia claim this is OURS own territory).
But i think today something has changed.
Will see.

And sure, Georgia has done bad things in South Ossetia (just like Russia has done bad things in South Ossetia, and just like South Ossetia has done bad things to Georgians), but too bad that not too many outside Russian state-owned news stations seem to have noticed the "ethnical cleanings" - sometimes even not those living in the very villages in the very moment when Russia claims that they are under ethnical cleanings.

Right point , but not full.
You pretty right about genocied -it was MUTUAL.
But also know in Serbia was a MUTUAL genocide of Serbs and Kosovars.
But tell me honestly -how many state-owned mass news stations noticed the "ethnical cleansing" or crimes against their civils in Serbia?

You see the problem here: when information provided by Russia has been proved to be total b*llsh*t so many times during the recent years, it just completely erases any credibility about anything they say.

I do understand you point.
You can not trust to it.
But say me please honestly ( again) can you trust the CNN for instance that "provided a truly sources" that in Iraq there are a MDW in 2003 ?
Hardly.
But why do you think that Their lie should be better the Russian one?

And about Serbia:

Huge number of free countries in the world got enough reliable information from hundreds of different sources about what was going on (really bad things) in the Serbia, and warned them over and over and over and over again, year after year. Serbia didn't listen. Before those really bad things, world just didn't care about Kosovo wanting to be independent because it was legally part of Serbia, and they could do anything with Kosova as long as it wasn't direct killing process. They crossed the line, many times, badly, and everybody (in the free countries) knew about it. So they (eventually) paid the price.

OK.
They have paid fo bad things they did.Right
But tell me again - Georgia who took the obligation to to use the military force to solve the Ethnical and territorial problem ?
Was it good thing to start the solution from Mortar fire on City full of sleeping peoples?
Was it right to attack the battalion of Peacekeepers ( about 500 mans )armed by AK and light armored cars with Tanks and Howitzers?
Was it right to execute wounded soldiers?
Hardly.
So they have made a lot of nasty things.
And would have paid for that.

But hey, I totally understand that Serbians feel pissed. And of unrelated note: I think they are the country with most talented teams in ball-and-skills-related-sports, like soccer, basketball, etc.

Yes they have a talent teams.. but dumn they have no right to own their land, right.

But here's the difference: South-Ossetia have requested many times to be independent - and Russia has always been totally against that. Let me make it clear here: RUSSIA IS AGAINST INDEPENDENT SOUTH-OSSETIA. Totally. And it seems that Russia is against their independence now too because they just won't acknowledge their independence, no matter how many times South-Ossetia requests it. And South-Ossetia just moments ago requested Russia to acknowledge them, and Russia totally skipped that request immediately. So what the hell Russia is doing there? Protecting their citizens, come on...

Again all this right points.
But ,for sake of true, why you don't wish to ask S.ossetians what to hell do russians here?
Why do you use the westrn media as a "source" instead to learn the real oppinion of Osetians?
And how many Osetians want back to Georgia on your mind?

There are so many (foreign/decent/intelligence) people in South-Ossetia that if Georgia really started to mass murder people there, several countries would get several reports about it. And they would act against Georgia - just the like they did against Serbia. But nothing like that is reported - except by the very shaky Russian sources - nobody else seems to be seeing it even if they live there. So, no reason for any country on this planet to attack Georgia.

Oh yea, so tell me just single foreign/decent/intelligence groups/here here?
Why we didn't listen ANY their reports from Osetia?
And how many reporters or journalists have been sended to Osetia since 8 august?

One difference between Russia and many many many countries is this: In Finland, France, US, UK, EU, etc... you can request money from authorities to write a book about how those authorities suck, and you have a decent chance to get funds.

But tell me please why in France ( and in some other states of EU) the special laws that prosecute the revisionist then?

Any system which gives money to a person who wants to beat the hell out of that very system, has to be a very strong system. And in those kind of systems, information (for the majority) tends to be correct, because outright lies are fiercely discredited. Couple of years ago several Finnish groups thinking that "EU really sucks", asked and received funds from EU to travel to Bryssels to demonstrate publicly against EU. I do not see that kind of stuff happening in Russia, where those who criticize the system/Putin/etc way too often end up dead or in prison.
_
Right you can demonstrate - and WHAT WILL DEPEND ON YOUR VOICE or Books?
The Globalisation is the sort of totalitarism , isn't it?
We have alot of different oppinion and critic points of Putin-it is not forbidden especialy in Internet.( you simply can't forbid or bann it)
Besides, do you accidentally know, what was happend with Georgian opposition leaders last years?

[Egorka]

According to our Spiegel magazine it seems as if the Russians actually do have other intentions than just defending the Ossetians, they seem to have ground troops in purely georgian territory now. Sorry to tell it to you Chevan, but now you're officially the evil ones in this mess, no matter who started the actual shooting this time.
This a Spiegel article from 09-August, Sat.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,571079,00.html
...
About 1,000 people died on both sides in the ensuing two-and-a-half-year war, and tens of thousands of Georgians were driven out of South Ossetia. Then former Russian President Boris Yeltsin and Gamsakhurdia's successor, former Russian Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze, signed a ceasefire agreement. Although that agreement was occasionally violated, it remained largely intact until last week.
...
Faced with this prospect, Medvedev will continue what Putin once began. The former Kremlin chief repeatedly stressed that a "precedent" was set when the United States, Great Britain and other NATO states recognized the independence of the former Serbian province of Kosovo. It was at that point that Moscow reasoned that it could claim the same right for the South Ossetians and the Abkhazians, another group seeking independence from Georgia, and it demonstratively expanded its support for the two separatist provinces. At the same time, a speedy conquest of Tskhinvali became even less of a reality for Saakashvili.
...
In July, 1,000 US soldiers and 600 Georgian infantrymen participated in an exercise dubbed "Immediate Response." The official objective was to prepare for deployment in Afghanistan, but the true goal was to fight Russian volunteers who, in case of a serious conflict, would come to the aid of the separatist regimes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

This is precisely what could happen now. On Friday evening, there were reports that the first Russian patriots were headed for South Ossetia -- at a time when the world was still puzzled over what could have prompted the Georgian president to launch his military strike.
...
"It's not about Georgia anymore. It's about America, its values," the Georgian president told CNN in a live broadcast on Friday. "We are a freedom-loving nation that is right now under attack. "

But it doesn't appear that Saakashvili is entirely blameless in the matter.

Anyway... every side is playing dirty game... I do not even know what to think... Seems like the only choise is the choise between four evils...

[Chevan]

According to our Spiegel magazine it seems as if the Russians actually do have other intentions than just defending the Ossetians, they seem to have ground troops in purely georgian territory now. Sorry to tell it to you Chevan, but now you're officially the evil ones in this mess, no matter who started the actual shooting this time.

Don't worry Drake , i understand what do you mean.
Now the Russian are the "evil side".
The bss,ds killed our peacekepeers, our sitizents in Tshinvali ( many of civils here have the russians pasports) and then they cry : "Help, russians kick our ass"
Do you know what i think.
Somethimes you HAVE TO BE evil, purely for good aims in future.
Remember Israel attacked Lebanon 2005?
With no formal reasons?The Army of Lebanon did not attacked them, right.
But the GEorgian army has attacked us.
And what - did somebody complain to the "Evil Israel"?:)
You see , the bad job is a good job indeed.
The "War with terrorism" is hard thing, and i don't think we have to use only the UK/US concept of it(agains the Muslims terrorists) , becouse the Georgian army behave like a group of terrorists.

[Man of Stoat]

To put it bluntly, the Russians have a 100% track record of not deserving the benefit of the doubt. This is also not the first time that they have used the "Sudetenland pretext", so why should they deserve the benefit of the doubt now?

[Egorka]

To put it bluntly, the Russians have a 100% track record of not deserving the benefit of the doubt. This is also not the first time that they have used the "Sudetenland pretext", so why should they deserve the benefit of the doubt now?
benefit of the doubt?
Doubt about what exactly?

Do you have perception of what is going on there? How whould you explain what is happening?

[Rising Sun*]

Am I missing something here?

Isn't there an important oil pipeline or two through Georgia?

Which supply America, among other oil hungry nations?

And America has provided military support to Georgia?


If the positions were reversed, how would America react to Russia training Canada's military forces while Canada had oil pipelines crossing it for Russia's benefit, and Russian sponsored and aligned Canada had launched a military attack on one of its provinces on America's border which wanted to unite with America?

I think what is happening in Ossetia is appalling and should be stopped immediately because people are being dispossessed and hurt and killed, but politicians in warring nations and their sponsors never care about that so the reality is that Russia's actions should be judged by the conduct expected of a comparable nation in a similar position. In which case America and China and India would all act in exactly the same way.

It's got bugger all to do with who's morally right or who started it and everything to do with what is in the interests of the nations involved, and who has the most military and political power to get their way.

Putin and Bush couldn't give a shit who gets shot, as long as it's not them. This is a pity because if the clowns at the top took the same risks they send their soldiers off to face they'd take a different attitude. Well, Bush, at least, the draft dodging prick who's currently lost over 4,000 lives of other Americans on an idiotic adventure in Iraq, about oil.

Ossetia is in part about oil, yet again, as well as big power politics and, among other things, Russia letting America know that Russia still has the military power and will to act as it always has in the past, so don't site an American missile defence shield in middle Europe or maybe Russia will advance there, too, because there's still life in the old dog.

[Egorka]

There is NO oil in South osetia. The oil pipeline does NOT cross it either.

Right, no one is morally right there. That is why it is strange to listen how Russia gets blamed for everything, where it, in fact, deserves to be blamed only for half of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline
or
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/n/unokai/Btc_pipeline_route.png

[Egorka]

This is also not the first time that they have used the "Sudetenland pretext", so why should they deserve the benefit of the doubt now?
The difference with Osetia and Sudetenland is that unlike in 1938, it was GEorgian military starting full scale military operation on Friday August 8th.
And what a coinsidence! The same day Olympic games in Beijin started - a sly attempt to jeopardise the oncoming olympic games in Sochi, Russia.

Yes, Russia acts like a bear, as always. But it does not mean that it has to be blamed for everything!

I am taking my chances calming that you know NOTHING about history of this conflict not how the things in Caucasus really work out. Yet you make brave conclusions.

Georgian rocket launcher baraging Tshinval last Friday BEFORE Russian Army moved in:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-34044-3.html#backToArticle=570893
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1264200,00.jpg

[Rising Sun*]

There is NO oil in South osetia. The oil pipeline does NOT cross it either.

I know that.

Which is why I referred to pipelines crossing Georgia.

Just like on your map. ;)

[Egorka]

I know that.
Which is why I referred to pipelines crossing Georgia.
Just like on your map. ;)
I know it is going through Georgia, but it is not crossing the territory of South Osetia.
Just like on my map. ;)

[Churchill]

-Russia confirmed for the first time on Monday it had advanced beyond the borders of Abkhazia, saying it had launched an operation in the town of Senaki.

-And the conflict over South Ossetia also appeared to have widened, with Georgia accusing Russia of capturing the town of Gori, just 76km (47 miles) from Tbilisi.

-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland issue a joint statement saying that as "once-captive nations of Eastern Europe" they share a "deep concern" about Russia's actions towards Georgia. - BBC World. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7554507.stm

I think Moscow can deny all the things that are happening, but they are happening. I seem more inclined to beleive Georgia, because as a defending nation, they wouldn't make up all this bull about being attacked.

[Semper Fi]

Maybe the Russian government wants to bring the Russian power that they had during world war 2. But this not the way to handle this matter. Russian needs to back down and hol their fire or Nato my declare war on Russian and then Where is America, right in the center. Im onne the first to say attack Moscow but this is stuped. They can't win. even China has told them to back down.

So were dose this leave us. Out with or ( excuse my words ) asses in the wind. So Were does this leave us?

[flamethrowerguy]

I just read in the newspaper today that there have been claims for Georgia to join the NATO in the recent past with The USA as a supporter. Well, that would have caused a major problem by now...

[Churchill]

Haha, Georgia isn't even close to any NATO nation, much less the Atlantic Ocean.

[flamethrowerguy]

Haha, Georgia isn't even close to any NATO nation, much less the Atlantic Ocean.

Well, it's still a fact they (Georgia) wanted to join...

[Churchill]

I know, I was just pointing out the obvious...

[Nickdfresh]

I know it is going through Georgia, but it is not crossing the territory of South Osetia.
Just like on my map. ;)

Just like the Russian Army...

[Chevan]

Just like the Russian Army...
Just lik in Afganistan in 1979;):mrgreen:

[Chevan]

Ossetia is in part about oil, yet again, as well as big power politics and, among other things, Russia letting America know that Russia still has the military power and will to act as it always has in the past, so don't site an American missile defence shield in middle Europe or maybe Russia will advance there, too, because there's still life in the old dog.

Its' not just about Oil ,mate.
there alot of russians who lives here in Osetia , Abhazia.
Althought the oil is probably importaint matter, but it's also a matter for USA who support the Georgian regime.
Do you know what is a lofe in Geogia accidentally?
Their pensioner get 20$ per month.
The unemployment is 61%.
This is a state-bankrupt.
At the same time his state has an biggest Army in region and strong Special forces and Police.
This is tupical Third world dictatorship that suppress any their inner opposition by rough police methods.
Insted to increase the life-level of its peoples- the dictator Saakachvili just do nothing except the Military hysteria.
And now this madman want to spread their power over Osetia and Abhazia- where the life-level higher then in Georgia ( becouse many peoples work in Russia).
Rgis is not starange - the local peoples don't wish to be joined to Georgia.Especialy by rough force.

[Chevan]

But the Russian gov't seems to be be continuing the carnage and expanding the scope of the attacks well beyond the Ossetia territory in dispute...
...
As i know russians forces attack the Georgiam military aims outside of osetia.This is doing to break the Georgian war potential.
Nobody plans or wish to cupture the Georgian territory.

[Semper Fi]

Well the Russian's could want the world to see that they have not lost their poweer in the eastern world. But it could also be that they may want their land back that they had when they where the USSR. Well at any rate they need to halt and give what they took back. Or Nato will make a strike on the Russians and then their will be a new World war. Im one of the frist to say attack and win against the russian's But this is a war with no end.

Now that is not a reason that the Russian gov. would want to bring to their people. I hope they can find a way to end this before any more are killed or wounded.

[Rising Sun*]

Or Nato will make a strike on the Russians and then their will be a new World war.

Not while Western Europe depends upon Russian gas and oil, apart from any other reasons.

[Chevan]

Oh come on.
Nobody will start the WW3 becouse of little dictators banan state that attacked "their civils" with Mortars in Tshinvali.
This is just hysteria, that has no any sense.
I/m sure the hostilities should have finished soon, just right after litle banan Military regime lost their ability to attack in future.

[Man of Stoat]

So, Russia funds and arms separatists in a province of a new state which used to be part of its empire.
Russia hands out passports in said province like candy.
Armed separatists cause problems for the new state prompting a police action.
Russia then invades, claiming "protecting its citizens".
New state defends its sovereign territory, offers a ceasefire which basically gives away the breakaway province.
Russia declines, expands the war to the remainder of the state on the pretext of preventing retaliation.
Oh and look -- now Russia has control of ALL the gas and oil pipelines running from Central Asia to Europe.

It is transparently textbook stuff...

[Chevan]

So, Russia funds and arms separatists in a province of a new state which used to be part of its empire.

Not true.
At the moment of attack the Osetians has only few old tanks. Georgians got about 150 re-armed and reequipment , supplied by Nato on American money.
Feel the deffirence who armed whom?
And in what scale.

Russia hands out passports in said province like candy.

Wrong .
The ANY people has right o take the Double sitezenship.
There a lot of people who has the double American-European.
Now say thet USA hands out pasports:)
BTW there are about 1 million of Georgians who have a Russian pasports
Say that Georgia is like a province of Russia:)

Armed separatists cause problems for the new state prompting a police action.

Police action ...with Howitzers, Tanks, Bombers and Mortars:shock:
are you crasy?
The "police action" that kills the 1600 civils calls by the other world:(

Russia then invades, claiming "protecting its citizens".

What russia has invided?
The S.Osetia?
Just ask a locals osetians WHo has invided them?

New state defends its sovereign territory, offers a ceasefire which basically gives away the breakaway province.

The other New state Serbia also pretty defended its territory by all means.
Now say the soveraign territory Kosovo has no right to be independent and protected:)

Russia declines, expands the war to the remainder of the state on the pretext of preventing retaliation.

True, Russia declines.
Becouse you have to punish agressors who calls the unfair attack on civils with Army as "Police action"

Oh and look -- now Russia has control of ALL the gas and oil pipelines running from Central Asia to Europe.

Oh yea so Russians has cuptured the Georgian Oil Pipe already?
I did know it.
Say me please the source where from you've learned it?

[Man of Stoat]

Give it a week and they will have this pipeline.

So I take it as read is then that Georgia equally has the right to send its peacekeepers to Chechnya to punish Russian aggression, and expand into other parts of Caucasian Russia ? They do share a border, and I'm sure that there are at least a handful of Georgian nationals living there that need protection.

[Rising Sun*]

I reckon Russia will stop when it's made its point, which is to demonstrate to Georgia that it will come off worst if it wants to push Russia over S. Ossetia or anything else.

Anyway, Russia has already achieved its main aim, which was to punish Gori for spawning Stalin. ;) :D

[32Bravo]

I reckon Russia will stop when it's made its point, which is to demonstrate to Georgia that it will come off worst if it wants to push Russia over S. Ossetia or anything else.

Anyway, Russia has already achieved its main aim, which was to punish Gori for spawning Stalin. ;) :D

Like it. :)

This is an interesting thread; full of Coldwar prejudices, accusations and counter-accusations, and generally lots of double standards. Very entertaining. :)

[Rising Sun*]

This is an interesting thread; full of Coldwar prejudices, accusations and counter-accusations, and generally lots of double standards. Very entertaining. :)

And here is the winner of the Most Shamelessly Hypocrital Stupid Statement Award, from the Idiot of Iraq.

US President George W Bush today warned Russia to reverse course in Georgia, saying Moscow had damaged its world standing.

"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighbouring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century,'' he said in his strongest condemnation yet of the fighting.

Mr Bush pressed Moscow to accept a Europe-crafted peace plan that calls for an immediate ceasefire, withdrawal of forces from the conflict zone, a return to the pre-August 6th status quo, and pledges to refrain from further use of force.

"Russia's government must respect Georgia's territorial integrity and sovereignty. The Russian Government must reverse the course it appears to be on and accept this peace agreement as a first step toward resolving this conflict,'' he said. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24166792-661,00.html

George has taken a special interest in Georgia purely because he thinks it's named after him. :D

[32Bravo]

george has taken a special interest in georgia purely because he thinks it's named after him. :d


bravo, sir !!! :)

[Chevan]

I reckon Russia will stop when it's made its point, which is to demonstrate to Georgia that it will come off worst if it wants to push Russia over S. Ossetia or anything else.

Anyway, Russia has already achieved its main aim, which was to punish Gori for spawning Stalin. ;) :D
You perfectly right mate.
The Gori will spawn no more Stalins in future:mrgreen:
World can live in calm:)
The war is over.
Medvedev said on TV the military operation has been stopped:)
Mission has accomplished
The ww3 has been rejected..

[Chevan]

Give it a week and they will have this pipeline.

You have missed.

[Rising Sun*]

Its' not just about Oil ,mate.

I meant it was about oil from the Western governments' perspective.

Do you think any Western government really cares much about Georgians?

[Chevan]

I meant it was about oil from the Western governments' perspective.

Do you think any Western government really cares much about Georgians?
Hardly
But also i 'm not sure that Russian gov actualy cares ONLY about Ossetians;)

[Rising Sun*]

Hardly
But also i 'm not sure that Russian gov actualy cares ONLY about Ossetians;)

Georgia's President should have learnt one thing, which Poland should note about the missile shield and which was part of the message in Russia's actions: America ain't gonna go to war with Russia just because Russia slaps a minor country on its borders for getting too close to America.

Poland should have had enough experience of being let down by supposed allies when threatened by Russia that Poland will get the message loud and clear.

[Nickdfresh]

As i know russians forces attack the Georgiam military aims outside of osetia.This is doing to break the Georgian war potential.
Nobody plans or wish to cupture the Georgian territory.

Just like in Afghanistan?

Actually, I think the Russian gov't is playing a dangerous game of brinkmanship, and killing a good number of Georgians in the process...

[Rising Sun*]

Actually, I think the Russian gov't is playing a dangerous game of brinkmanship, and killing a good number of Georgians in the process...

True, but isn't the US being dangerously provocative towards Russia by training Georgia's military?

Plus wanting to put the missile shield in Poland?

Kennedy didn't react too well to a somewhat similar, but rather different and more threatening act given the type of missile, when the Soviets put missiles into Cuba.

No nation likes being ringed by its potential enemy.

[Chevan]

Just like in Afghanistan?

As i know the intervention to Afganistan was planned as "Liberation company" from most beginig.
the Soviet troops was planned to say here for a long time/ As long as it was needed.

Actually, I think the Russian gov't is playing a dangerous game of brinkmanship, and killing a good number of Georgians in the process...
Agree.
this is rather danger game.
But as truly write Rising Sun, the russians have no much choice.- The USA too intensive direct our neighbourds agains Russia, ignoring( or supporting) the anti-russian hysteria here.
The USA wage a danger game from most beginning.
Russia just says - no more of it HERE.
Lets play in Iraq and Iran as much as you wish. But Caucaus is a wrong place.
In some russians inner forums there is an oppinion that the "Georgian company" is the ONLY FIRST testing of Russian ability to resist to Washington expantion.
They need to learn where is going the Line that can't be crossed.

[Chevan]

True, but isn't the US being dangerously provocative towards Russia by training Georgia's military?

Plus wanting to put the missile shield in Poland?

Kennedy didn't react too well to a somewhat similar, but rather different and more threatening act given the type of missile, when the Soviets put missiles into Cuba.

No nation likes being ringed by its potential enemy.

MAte , have you accidentally been recruited by FSB?:):):mrgreen:
Your posts look too pro-russian.

[Rising Sun*]

Your posts look too pro-russian.

That's not what you said when we were debating Lend Lease and who won WWII. ;) :D

I can see why Russia would feel a bit beseiged by America, which insists on launching military actions all over the planet to protect American interests, while vigorously objecting to anyone else doing the same thing if it threatens American interests.

Add in Turkey and middle European nations joining NATO; America in Afghanistan and Iraq and threatening to go into Iran (which, if it does, will probably be the second time it's been humiliated there in the past three decades); a major air base in Kyrgyzstan; training Georgia's military and sponsoring it for NATO membership; and the Pacific fleet, and it's not hard to see why Russia feels it's being ringed by America.

Since the demise of the COMINTERN and the USSR, Russia hasn't been anywhere near as arrogant or aggressive as America outside its border areas, but now it's getting confident again about its economic, diplomatic and military power and starting to use it.

Which Bush the Idiot can't handle, so he lectures Russia about a limited week long incursion into Georgia after he's spent years fucking Iraq over beyond all belief with a lot less justification than Russia had for going into Georgia. Or did I miss the American peacekeepers in Iraq killed by the Iraqis in an ill judged initiation of armed conflict as happened with S. Ossetia?

[Egorka]

Just like in Afghanistan?
Maybe like in Afganistan... where USSR stupidly fell victim of American provocation. Do you know what I am talking about? ;)

[32Bravo]

How good is that armour?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNNACX3SQKw

[Egorka]

How good is that armour?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNNACX3SQKw
What do you mean?

[Semper Fi]

Not while Western Europe depends upon Russian gas and oil, apart from any other reasons.

That is good, I did not think of the oil and gas part of the problem. But why attack a little country that has no worth, or better yet no value. Yes the lives of people are important but their is no reason for the Russian higharcy to invade this little ( pardion my words ) shit hole an leave the world in aw of what they are doing.


And yes I can't spell very well. O.K

[32Bravo]

What do you mean?

Sorry, I don't speak Russian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t459NbF5Vek

[Semper Fi]

Could the Russians be growing bigger balls and trying to tell the world that their back! and maybe their upset about how the Cold war ended. even so that not one round was fire at america and russia they still lost the battle and the war. But was the cold war more of a weapons race.

[Churchill]

Apperantly, they're pulling out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/europe/7555858.stm

[Egorka]

That is good, I did not think of the oil and gas part of the problem. But why attack a little country that has no worth, or better yet no value. Yes the lives of people are important but their is no reason for the Russian higharcy to invade this little ( pardion my words ) shit hole an leave the world in aw of what they are doing.
And yes I can't spell very well. O.K
So basicaly, to put it short, you have no idea what and why is going on there but you already formed your opinion that Russia has done something bad.
Or I just misunderstood you?

[Egorka]

Sorry, I don't speak Russian.
Nobody is perfect... :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t459NbF5Vek
Well active armour is not a panacea.

[Nickdfresh]

Give it a week and they will have this pipeline.

So I take it as read is then that Georgia equally has the right to send its peacekeepers to Chechnya to punish Russian aggression, and expand into other parts of Caucasian Russia ? They do share a border, and I'm sure that there are at least a handful of Georgian nationals living there that need protection.


The speculations I've heard is that Russia doesn't want to dare attacking the pipeline and the resulting chaos of a Georgian occupation (the Russian markets dropped at the start of the offensive). But they may be trying to send a signal that a new natural gas pipeline ought not to be built through Georgia...

[Nickdfresh]

True, but isn't the US being dangerously provocative towards Russia by training Georgia's military?

Why shouldn't a military have training? And the Russians/Soviets trained a good deal of the Georgian forces, and the Georgians still use mostly Russian sourced equipment. In fact, I thought they made the venerable SU-25 attack aircraft?

Plus wanting to put the missile shield in Poland?

Perhaps. But then isn't Russia helping Iran as they conduct nuclear research?

Kennedy didn't react too well to a somewhat similar, but rather different and more threatening act given the type of missile, when the Soviets put missiles into Cuba.

No nation likes being ringed by its potential enemy.

True. But the Georgian forces present little actual threat to Russia proper as their offensive showed. And some think the Russian gov't is mostly bitter because Georgia is one of the last areas that a pipeline can routed around, effectively avoiding Russia...

[Nickdfresh]

...

Well active armour is not a panacea.


But it's still better than lazy, sedentary armour. ;)

[Moreheaddriller]

The thing thats really scary is that this conflict is quite similar to something the soviets would do i mean it wouldnt suprise me to see the hammer and sickle again in the near future although highly unlikely its still a possiblity

[Chevan]

Why shouldn't a military have training? And the Russians/Soviets trained a good deal of the Georgian forces, and the Georgians still use mostly Russian sourced equipment. In fact, I thought they made the venerable SU-25 attack aircraft?

Nick why do yu confuse my friend RS?
The most of new wearpon they use have been supplied after 2000.
Even their "old" Su-25 have been seriously modernized with Israeli electronics.
Other "russian " equipment like an Ukrainian AA system S-200, Chech T-72, American helicopters ( 90% all of helicopters of Georgia) and ets.

Perhaps. But then isn't Russia helping Iran as they conduct nuclear research?

Russia build a industrial reactor , not conducting a researchs.

True. But the Georgian forces present little actual threat to Russia proper as their offensive showed. And some think the Russian gov't is mostly bitter because Georgia is one of the last areas that a pipeline can routed around, effectively avoiding Russia...

You just repeat the Georgian propogandic shit.
Nobody even speak about pipeline. And nobody planned to attack it.
See at facts..
If someone just wished - the pipeline have been alredy damaged since the first day of conflict.

[Rising Sun*]

Why shouldn't a military have training?

No reason at all, it's just that the source is provocative, in the same way that America would regard it as provocative if Russia was training Canadian or Mexican forces.


Perhaps. But then isn't Russia helping Iran as they conduct nuclear research?

Even if it is, it's rather different to the US training Georgia or Russia training Mexico situations as Iran isn't on America's border or in striking range of America.

Oddly enough, a future by-product of a worsening of the current situation could be Russia providing technology to Iran to give it the range to try to strike America, as a new form of proxy wars between Russia and America.

It's all to do with perceived threat and counter-threat, complicated by threats to extra-territorial interests.

True. But the Georgian forces present little actual threat to Russia proper as their offensive showed.

True. Which makes you wonder what particular madness possessed Georgia to start it up in the first place?

And some think the Russian gov't is mostly bitter because Georgia is one of the last areas that a pipeline can routed around, effectively avoiding Russia...

Not something I know anything about, but given the huge profits Russia has made from gas and oil to Western Europe it might well want to corner that market for itself, or at least exclude a new source of supply.

[Egorka]

Since Afghanistan was mentioned few post previously I wish to share this piece of information.
The following is the English translation from the interview of Mr.Brzezinski to the French Le Nouvel Observateur (“Oui, la CIA est entrйe en Afghanistan avant les Russes...”, N° 1732 - 15/1/1998, Vincent Jauvert). ("Yes, CIA went to Afghanistan before Russians...")
The original article in French here: http://hebdo.nouvelobs.com/hebdo/parution/p1732/articles/a19460-.htmlsource: http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html
The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

[Egorka]

The thing thats really scary is that this conflict is quite similar to something the soviets would do i mean it wouldnt suprise me to see the hammer and sickle again in the near future although highly unlikely its still a possiblityThe only difference between Iraq #2 war and Georgian war is that the later one actually has a realistic looking excuse to it.

[Moreheaddriller]

touche my friend

[koala]

I suppose the true reasons behind the conflict will eventually find its way to the general population. But in the mean time I would not jump into beleiving the jibberish coming from the USA and its allies cosidering their track record of providing honest and accurate information regarding some of the other recent and not so recent world events.

[alephh]

Russian troops are heading towards Tbilisi!

Several different sources in Gori (AP reporters, ETYJ members, AFP staff) report that they have watched Russian convoys with battle tanks heading towards Tbilisi!

One Russian soldier even shouted "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi!" to a photographer. For sources, read reports from different news-agencies.


_

[Egorka]

Russian troops are heading towards Tbilisi!

Several different sources in Gori (AP reporters, ETYJ members, AFP staff) report that they have watched Russian convoys with battle tanks heading towards Tbilisi!

One Russian soldier even shouted "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi!" to a photographer. For sources, read reports from different news-agencies.


_

16 APVs plus evacuated abandoned Geogian vehicles is not enough to attack Tbilisi. Besides they took a turn to Osetia.

[Chevan]

One Russian soldier even shouted "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi!" to a photographer. For sources, read reports from different news-agencies.
_
Looks very improbable.
Besides why Euronews keep silence about the russian tanks march on Gori?

[Chevan]

16 APVs plus evacuated abandoned Geogian vehicles is not enough to attack Tbilisi. Besides they took a turn to Osetia.

I heard they dont evacuate the cuptured Georgian vehicles- but simply destroy or blow up it .

[Chevan]

Oh shit, the Russian columns are near the Gori:)
The Euronews reported it.
Alephh was almost right.
What are they doing here?i have no any idea.

[alephh]

Looks very improbable.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1832291,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

Besides why Euronews keep silence about the russian tanks march on Gori?

Because it's a very slow-moving news-media.

"BBC reporter in Gori reported that Russians tanks were in the streets as their South Ossetian separatist allies seized Georgian cars, looted Georgian homes and then set some homes ablaze."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_russia;_ylt=Ahq.WgqWahIsCUpwnTZNXqes0NUE

"A column of 70 Russian military vehicles, including military trucks with anti-aircraft guns and artillery, as well as armoured personnel carriers, pursued by a large contingent of the world's media, left Gori on the road to Tbilisi and turned left a few kilometres outside of the frontline Georgian town." [includes a photo of Russian convoy heading from Gori to the directon of Tbilisi]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2552133/Russian-military-advances-into-Georgia-in-defiance-of-EU-peace-deal.html

"Separatist fighters and Russian troops looted and set homes ablaze in Georgia... Hundreds of South Ossetian rebels with some Russian army personnel went house-to-house in villages near Gori. They torched houses and looted buildings, witnesses said..."
+
"Human Rights Watch said its researchers in South Ossetia had witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians."
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jNBg25n8qYjQyiQ-osgnmBJH6xSQ

"In the port of Poti on the Black Sea on August 13, the Russian military blew up three coastguard ships belonging to the Georgian border department in the full view of journalists. A ship given to the department by the Bulgarian government was also destroyed. The day before, several Gerogian vessels had been sunk out at sea."
http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=346145&apc_state=henh

"Bush is ordering his country's military forces to Georgia to begin a "humanitarian mission to the people of Georgia". American aircraft and naval forces will be deployed... A C-17 aircraft, spearheading the effort and carrying humanitarian supplies, is currently on its way."
http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/fiction/international-affairs/russian-tanks-breach-georgia-ceasefire-$1236187.htm





_

[Chevan]

(TBILISI, Georgia) — A Russian military convoy thrust deep into Georgia on Wednesday and Georgian officials said Russian troops bombed and looted the crossroads city of Gori, violating a freshly brokered truce intended to end the conflict

Is the "Georgian officials" a reliable source?
[quote]
Because it's a very slow-moving news-media.

They are just European retards media..
You right the CNN/BBS is more quick and operate

"BBC reporter in Gori reported that Russians tanks were in the streets as their South Ossetian separatist allies seized Georgian cars, looted Georgian homes and then set some homes ablaze."

"Ossetians separatists" sounds cool
I think the proud Osetians freedom fighters, who come to kick Georgian ass after the Genocide in Tshinvali is not bad too;)

"A column of 70 Russian military vehicles, including military trucks with anti-aircraft guns and artillery, as well as armoured personnel carriers, pursued by a large contingent of the world's media, left Gori on the road to Tbilisi and turned left a few kilometres outside of the frontline Georgian town." [includes a photo of Russian convoy heading from Gori to the directon of Tbilisi]

The armored personel carriers , pursued by a large of the world's media sounds really good.
Somebody said that Russian army forbid the World mass media to be here:)
But as we see they Journalist already "travels" together with Army.Good news.

"Separatist fighters and Russian troops looted and set homes ablaze in Georgia... Hundreds of South Ossetian rebels with some Russian army personnel went house-to-house in villages near Gori. They torched houses and looted buildings, witnesses said..."

Yea the S. Osetian rebels are actualy danger boys:)
Well nobody promised the GEorgians that Osetians will love them after all atrocities that they have commited couple days ago.
"Human Rights Watch said its researchers in South Ossetia had witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians."

i have a question- where were this f..ng Human Rights Watch when Georgians commited Ethnical terror in Tshinvali?
May be the Human Rights Watch are the bunch of Racists who take in consideration only the rights of GEorgians.
Very strange selective approach.

"In the port of Poti on the Black Sea on August 13, the Russian military blew up three coastguard ships belonging to the Georgian border department in the full view of journalists. A ship given to the department by the Bulgarian government was also destroyed. The day before, several Gerogian vessels had been sunk out at sea."

Oh damn the Last georgian warship have been sunked
Don't worry the American would have presented them new few soon.Absolutly free, Becouse the state-bankrupt has NO money except the Amerian credits:)

"Bush is ordering his country's military forces to Georgia to begin a "humanitarian mission to the people of Georgia". American aircraft and naval forces will be deployed... A C-17 aircraft, spearheading the effort and carrying humanitarian supplies, is currently on its way."

Well i just hope they were not mean Wearponry supplies as a "humanitarian mission"

[Chevan]

All this is not good indeed.
Nobody wish the war to be continied.

[Semper Fi]

So basicaly, to put it short, you have no idea what and why is going on there but you already formed your opinion that Russia has done something bad.
Or I just misunderstood you?

No you misunderstood me I was just saying that maybe it could be more then Oil. It could be about land. I know the oil is in their , but We have no idea what they are after. I don't think in russian, and I don't know what they are thinking, And maybe It could be all that I have said. And everything everyone else has said. So If you still think Im am forming a false idea about the Russian's please help me but That is my Idea on the Georgian crisis.

[Sergej]

http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7B918bb6cd-b61d-42b4-9ff1-c33aa94c173e%7D.gif

[alephh]

(TBILISI, Georgia) — Georgian officials said Russian troops bombed and looted the crossroads city of Gori, violating a freshly brokered truce intended to end the conflict
Is the "Georgian officials" a reliable source?

No, but all the british, finnish, american, french, etc (reporters, etyj-people, citizens-in-area) are, especially when enough of them report the same thing.

i have a question- where were this f..ng Human Rights Watch when Georgians commited Ethnical terror in Tshinvali?

That's the trouble with the things you see in Russian news: Even if you're on the very spot, on the very moment - you often just don't see anything happening that Russian mass media is claiming.

For example, when the Estonians, with upmost respect and care, relocated the bronze statue (the fact one could see with own eyes, or watch it from footages) - at the same time Russian news claimed it's being destroyed.

Or when news-channels and Internet is full of photos and live-footage of Russian planes dropping bombs inside Georgia, what's the point, even 24 hours later, try to deny that Russian planes are not dropping bombs inside Georia in Russian mass media.

When troubles start, it would be so great, just once a century, to see Russian news media report something that somebody else of the 6.6 billion population could also see with their own eyes.

Everyone who sees something with their own eyes while the Russian media claims the exact opposite, time after time, will lose their faith in Russian media completely over the years. That's the issue. It's not about what you read on Internet, it's about personally seeing that Russian claims are bogus. I feel sorry for people who try to understand what's happening in the world by watching/reading Russian news.

Of course each side actively in war/conflict try to "report down" their own losses, push their own view, etc. But making up stuff to create more hatred in the years to come seems pretty criminal to me.

And I'm not saying that Georgia is completely innocent in this conflict. I do understand that they want to take full control of their own county - the very same way Russia wanted to take full control of their own county in the case of chechen. But I do not appreciate Georgian officials making claims that are without evidence (or at least seem to be at this point), like that Russians are setting up concentration camps as they march on - those kind of statements just "live on" and make the future much more difficult and hate-filled.


_

[Chevan]

No, but all the british, finnish, american, french, etc (reporters, etyj-people, citizens-in-area) are, especially when enough of them report the same thing.

Yea
But all of the "british, finnish, american, french, etc" were reporting ONLY from Georgia:)
With sanction of GEorgian officials.

That's the trouble with the things you see in Russian news: Even if you're on the very spot, on the very moment - you often just don't see anything happening that Russian mass media is claiming.

I have no ttrouble with the Russian news, becouse i watch the Euronews and CNN/BBS also.
So i can get the MORE OR LESS objective view on what is going on there.
i admit the russian News are not always objective, but the CNN absolutly biased also pretty clear fro me.

For example, when the Estonians, with upmost respect and care, relocated the bronze statue (the fact one could see with own eyes, or watch it from footages) - at the same time Russian news claimed it's being destroyed.

No Russian news just told - thay were going to dismating the monument to replace it to other place.
BTW i do many russian well do understand the Estonians , and i personaly.
So there is nothing wrong.
I know the Russian mass media used it as political show, but such things do alsmost every state.

Or when news-channels and Internet is full of photos and live-footage of Russian planes dropping bombs inside Georgia, what's the point, even 24 hours later, try to deny that Russian planes are not dropping bombs inside Georia in Russian mass media.

dropping bombs on the military object of GEorgialike airfield, bases and est- this is bit other thing.And nobody deny it .
I know it from most beginning, and told about it honestly.
You can't break the Agressor while he use their Army to shot at our soldiers.
And in Tshinvali has bee fully crushed - is the YOUR NTERNET full of the photos of destroyed Osetian city?
No?
So maybe you use the biased part of Internet?

When troubles start, it would be so great, just once a century, to see Russian news media report something that somebody else of the 6.6 billion population could also see with their own eyes.

Well i don't know how many of 6,6 bln World population really believe to the CNN/BBS.
But something promts me, that the 1,5 of CHineses and about the 1,5 bln of Arads do not really get the CNN as a "reliable source" ( especially when the CNN give its oppinion about Arab-Israeli conflicts:))
SO as you can see the world population indeed have the pretty different concepts about true, somethimes very differ from what you usialy see on your TV:)


Everyone who sees something with their own eyes while the Russian media claims the exact opposite, time after time, will lose their faith in Russian media completely over the years. That's the issue. It's not about what you read on Internet, it's about personally seeing that Russian claims are bogus. I feel sorry for people who try to understand what's happening in the world by watching/reading Russian news.

Don't need to sorry.
Just keep in mind ONE simple thing - NOTHING can be 100% true, even what you geting from your TV and Internet.
Just use it and you can more easy understand the events.
I don't watch ONLY TV and as i said not ONLY Russian TV.
But the Political point is pretty clear for me. I hope a bit later we should learn the true about hostilities.

Of course each side actively in war/conflict try to "report down" their own losses, push their own view, etc. But making up stuff to create more hatred in the years to come seems pretty criminal to me.

What do you call the making up staff?

And I'm not saying that Georgia is completely innocent in this conflict. I do understand that they want to take full control of their own county - the very same way Russia wanted to take full control of their own county in the case of chechen. But I do not appreciate Georgian officials making claims that are without evidence (or at least seem to be at this point), like that Russians are setting up concentration camps as they march on - those kind of statements just "live on" and make the future much more difficult and hate-filled.

OK , right point.
But you still believe them about "unfair bombing of Georgian cities and attempts to cupture WHOLE Georgia"?
This is also part of propogand informational war agains Osetians and Russia.
So as i said - we probaly would know all the true just LATER.
After when the special comissions have investigate all the crimes- ONLY then we would have probably learned the true.
But not now, taking the GEorgian news as a "source".

[alephh]

Yea
But all of the "british, finnish, american, french, etc" were reporting ONLY from Georgia:)


On what planet do you live on, man?

Here is just a small list of western reporters in South-Ossetia, in Georgia, and in Russia:
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=41903&c=1

I know the Russian mass media used it as political show, but such things do alsmost every state.

So can you point me to 10 news items in CNN that are made up, that have no reality behind them at all? I'm having extremely trouble finding even one. But it's easy to do from Russian news.

dropping bombs on the military object of GEorgialike airfield, bases and est- this is bit other thing.And nobody deny it.

So why are all the repoters taking pictures of civilians houses bombed down? Why are two western reporters dead after being in civilian building in Gori? Why did Russian artillery bomb Gori after Georgian troops left it?

And in Tshinvali has bee fully crushed - is the YOUR NTERNET full of the photos of destroyed Osetian city?

Part of the Tshinvali was destroyed when Georgian troops secured their motherland, and stopped separatist-terrorists shooting innocent people (as any country would have done). Part of the Tshinvali was destroyed when Russian troops attacked over the borders of the independent Georgia (those borders are acknowledged by Russia) and attacked the city.

especially when the CNN give its oppinion about Arab-Israeli conflicts :))

You're absolutely right :-D

Many countries have their "blind spots". And while CNN may not be making up stuff, they sure annoy the heck out of me with their extremely selective news reporting about Middle East issues :-/

SO as you can see the [b]world population indeed have the pretty different concepts about true, somethimes very differ from what you usialy see on your TV

That's correct - that's why I'm so worried when Dutch, Finnish, French, American, British, Arab, German, etc reporters who are located in South-Ossetia all report that Russians and Ossetians are looting places, killing civilians.

I do not see Dutch, Finnish, French, American, British, Arab, German, etc reporters who are located in South-Ossetia all report that Georgians are looting places, killing civilians.

Of course, areas/cultures like Russia/China are poorly understood, of course there are lot of differences. In some cultures looking directly in the eyes is insult, in other cultures it's polite. But killing a person is killing a person.

But if you take Russian media, British media, Arab media... and compare them, then you see that Russian media almost exclusively reports information from Russian sources. But British and Arab media are reporting claims by Russians, by Georgians, and by more-or-less independent reporters.


What do you call the making up staff?

I call "making up stuff that's untrue" a criminal activity. Especially if you're a powerful leader in the world.

But you still believe them about "unfair bombing of Georgian cities and attempts to cupture WHOLE Georgia"?

I think Russia unfairly bombed Georgian cities.

Why were the Russian convoys so relentlessly advancing towards Tbilisi? Because at some point they were ordered to advance to Tbilisi. If Russia was not capturing whole Georgia, why were the troops ordered to advance towards Tbilisi? If Russia was just seizing South-Ossetia, surely there were no need to head to Tbilisi with large convoys, no need to go outside South-Ossetia, at least that much.

So, there seem to be some credibility to the claim that Russia was capturing the whole Georgia - at one point in time.

But not now, taking the GEorgian news as a "source".

Georgia sucks as a news source, but Dutch, Finnish, French, American, British, Arab, German, etc reporters who are located in South-Ossetia (some of them more friendly towards Russia than America) are not seeing major offenses by Georgians, but they are seeing and hearing of lot of offenses by Russians and Ossetians.


Georgians in the tiny village of Dvani awoke Wednesday to the sound of doors being battered down. When they looked outside, Russian-backed soldiers from the separatist enclave of South Ossetia were pillaging the village, home by home. From the local school, they hauled away computers, from the grocery store, virtually everything. En masse, villagers fled... A few minutes later, when Merab Merakishvili looked back toward Dvani, he saw his village engulfed in flames. "I was at my neighbor's house and looked out the window and saw a soldier breaking into my house They were shouting and screaming, so I ran," Merakishvili said.
+
Villagers reported that South Ossetian separatist soldiers, at times accompanied by fighters from Russia's North Caucasus region, have looted homes and set them ablaze in Dvani, Tamarasheni and Shindisi.
+
Dzhoni Patriashvili, 37, said the separatist militia fighters came in two trucks into Dvani. One man was gunned down when he looked out his window... Patriashvili said, adding that he barely escaped being gunned down himself. "I was walking through the village, and the Russians who occupy a church up on a nearby hill saw me and began shooting at me. I crawled down a ridge, saw the trucks coming and decided it was time to escape."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-georgia_village_rod.aug14,0,5606654.story


Gori's day started with rumours of an imminent Russian arrival... We were filming at an apartment block when we heard the first shouts that the Russians were here. Then came the slow, steady rumble of the heavy vehicles, and just beyond the trees, we saw them. Packing up our gear we headed for the edge of town. Then from other nearby villages, others started to arrive where we had gathered. They told stories of masked men with guns stealing cars and valuables.
+
Mariam Shulbatshvili was gasping for breath when she showed up. She had come from the village of Karaleti but as she and her family were driving out they were waved down and ordered to stop. "Men with guns stopped us and told us out to get out of the car. We offered them money but they said they wanted the car. We were very frightened. We lost everything, our documents. Money, everything."
+
A group of six women were distressed and angry. They told us they had heard from relatives in the villages of Mejvriskhevi and Karaleti, and were rounding up the men and older boys. "Khazacs and Ossetians in uniform are coming into the village, putting sacks over the heads of our men and slitting their throats. They're taking everyone men, women and children. They're dragging the attractive women away."
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/20088146530258390.html

That's is what I have been hearing/reading from the reporters in South-Ossetia...




_

[Nickdfresh]

No reason at all, it's just that the source is provocative, in the same way that America would regard it as provocative if Russia was training Canadian or Mexican forces.


Or if Indonesia was providing arms and training to a faction that wanted autonomy inside Northwestern Australia?

And I wish someone WOULD better train the Mexican forces in their battle against drug cartels...

Even if it is, it's rather different to the US training Georgia or Russia training Mexico situations as Iran isn't on America's border or in striking range of America.

Oddly enough, a future by-product of a worsening of the current situation could be Russia providing technology to Iran to give it the range to try to strike America, as a new form of proxy wars between Russia and America.

Yes, but Iranians have probably killed US troops in Iraq, even if they were renegade factions not directly under gov't control...

It's all to do with perceived threat and counter-threat, complicated by threats to extra-territorial interests.

There's very little threat coming from the US, as the gov't has spouted little more than rhetoric, and there is no doubt that the Georgian offensive/counterattack (or whatever it was) was not sanctioned...


True. Which makes you wonder what particular madness possessed Georgia to start it up in the first place?

One of the things that is also not reported in "Western" medium is that the Ossetian separatists were in a recurring game of provoking the Georgians with indiscriminate firing...

Not something I know anything about, but given the huge profits Russia has made from gas and oil to Western Europe it might well want to corner that market for itself, or at least exclude a new source of supply.

Perhaps.

[Nickdfresh]

Nick why do yu confuse my friend RS?
The most of new wearpon they use have been supplied after 2000.
Even their "old" Su-25 have been seriously modernized with Israeli electronics.
Other "russian " equipment like an Ukrainian AA system S-200, Chech T-72, American helicopters ( 90% all of helicopters of Georgia) and ets.

So, basically they use American choppers and flashlights? I've yet to see one US sourced piece of equipment...

Russia build a industrial reactor , not conducting a researchs.

For a tidy profit.

BTW, what is the valiant Russian gov't --that supports indigenous groups rights against their territorial occupiers-- doing supporting the Khartoum regime in the Sudan as they conduct what is a "genocide" against the Dharfur region...

You just repeat the Georgian propogandic shit.

And you repeat the Russian official line of propagandist shit...

It was a US journalist's speculation on NPR actually. (Hardly the domain of the Bush admin)...

Nobody even speak about pipeline. And nobody planned to attack it.
See at facts..
If someone just wished - the pipeline have been alredy damaged since the first day of conflict.

Actually it has been bombed, and missed. But is heavily defended with those S300s you speak of?

[Nickdfresh]

Since Afghanistan was mentioned few post previously I wish to share this piece of information.
The following is the English translation from the interview of Mr.Brzezinski to the French Le Nouvel Observateur (“Oui, la CIA est entrйe en Afghanistan avant les Russes...”, N° 1732 - 15/1/1998, Vincent Jauvert). ("Yes, CIA went to Afghanistan before Russians...")
The original article in French here: http://hebdo.nouvelobs.com/hebdo/parution/p1732/articles/a19460-.html

What does this have to do with anything?

And the Soviet KGB as well as the GRU and "military advisers" were in Afghanistan all along...

[Rising Sun*]

Or if Indonesia was providing arms and training to a faction that wanted autonomy inside Northwestern Australia?

Pretty much what happened with East Timor, where Australia distinguished itself by allowing the Indonesian invasion in 1975 (which is the only time I wanted 150% to join up to fight the good fight, which Australia was too cunning to have). Australia stood by for a couple of decades afterwards while Indonesia ran amok there, largely because it suited us to have semi-fascists there rather than possible communists or other people with untidy ideas. Until we were more or less forced to go in because of popular pressure by right thinking people here, unfortunately assisted by our reluctant zombie Prime Minister who FUBAPB in dealing with Indonesia and bloody near got us into a war, which would have delighted some US arms suppliers to both sides as they could see how their equipment worked in action, with better (but not US standard) specs allowed on Australian planes than Indonesian ones.

Difference between Georgia or Canada / Mexico is that we trained Indonesian troops up to the point of war in 1975, and afterwards.

Wasn't (isn't) it a brilliant idea to train our most likely enemy so it undestands all our tactics, commands, signals, weapons, equipment, etc up to battalion level, even brigade level (we could have done divisional level, if we had a division :( ), when we don't learn anything about theirs?

And I wish someone WOULD better train the Mexican forces in their battle against drug cartels...

Would better training overcome corruption?

Yes, but Iranians have probably killed US troops in Iraq, even if they were renegade factions not directly under gov't control...

So?

Pakistanis have been fucking your and my troops over in Afghanistan from day one, but they're still our valued allies, despite harbouring bin Laden sympathisers and very probably bin Laden himself with the knowledge of the ISI or other elements of power in Pakistan.

There's very little threat coming from the US, as the gov't has spouted little more than rhetoric, and there is no doubt that the Georgian offensive/counterattack (or whatever it was) was not sanctioned...

I'll hold fire on that.

Last I heard was about sixteen hours ago, which was that America was flying in troops and aid to Georgia for humanitarian relief. Sounds like another provocation to Russia by the US to support Georgia, even if it's not intended to be by the US. Or maybe it is intended to be, because in the end that whole exercise is just an international pissing contest.

[Egorka]

What does this have to do with anything?
You mentioned Afghanistan and shared recently read material on it... that is it.
And the Soviet KGB as well as the GRU and "military advisers" were in Afghanistan all along...Of course they were. But again you forget that Afghanistan is not USA's underbelly but Soviet's. Just like Georgia is Russia's underbelly now. Rising Sun has mentioned it already.
The last time USSR set-up rockets in USA's underbelly there was a lot of complaints. So it is not as streight forward as it seems.

[Egorka]

When a commercial break comes unexpectadly like a thief in the night... :)

Fox News video:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ&eurl=http://lj-toys.com/?journalid=13799855&moduleid=11&preview=&auth_token=sessionless:1218726000:embedcontent

[Nickdfresh]

Pretty much what happened with East Timor, where Australia distinguished itself by allowing the Indonesian invasion in 1975 (which is the only time I wanted 150% to join up to fight the good fight, which Australia was too cunning to have). Australia stood by for a couple of decades afterwards while Indonesia ran amok there, largely because it suited us to have semi-fascists there rather than possible communists or other people with untidy ideas. Until we were more or less forced to go in because of popular pressure by right thinking people here, unfortunately assisted by our reluctant zombie Prime Minister who FUBAPB in dealing with Indonesia and bloody near got us into a war, which would have delighted some US arms suppliers to both sides as they could see how their equipment worked in action, with better (but not US standard) specs allowed on Australian planes than Indonesian ones.

Difference between Georgia or Canada / Mexico is that we trained Indonesian troops up to the point of war in 1975, and afterwards.

Wasn't (isn't) it a brilliant idea to train our most likely enemy so it undestands all our tactics, commands, signals, weapons, equipment, etc up to battalion level, even brigade level (we could have done divisional level, if we had a division :( ), when we don't learn anything about theirs?


From what I've heard of Indonesian forces, I doubt you've too much to worry about. I guess they don't do so well against those that can really shoot back...

But yes, Indonesia was another Cold War moral abyss where both Australia and the US turned a blind eye to what were some pretty awful pricks...

Would better training overcome corruption?

Maybe not, but actually, it's the Mexican Army that might just be the least corruptible. They seem to be genuinely prosecuting a "War on Drugs." Unfortunately it seems to be a bit of a dirty war and they are either extremely locally popular in the face of rampant Mexican police corruption, or are brutal and alienate the local populace. But a Mexican General was recently sacked because he called out the entire Mexican political systems enabling of drug cartels and lack of action.

So?

Pakistanis have been fucking your and my troops over in Afghanistan from day one, but they're still our valued allies, despite harbouring bin Laden sympathisers and very probably bin Laden himself with the knowledge of the ISI or other elements of power in Pakistan.

Yes, well the Iranians have also killed a lot of Iraqis with some of their "Quds" forces supporting Iraqi gov't (militia) death squads and are generally not the most reliable of sorts. But I realize that it is also a very complex situation as US (special?) forces are also supporting anti-Iranian gov't elements...

I'll hold fire on that.

Last I heard was about sixteen hours ago, which was that America was flying in troops and aid to Georgia for humanitarian relief. Sounds like another provocation to Russia by the US to support Georgia, even if it's not intended to be by the US. Or maybe it is intended to be, because in the end that whole exercise is just an international pissing contest.

If humanitarian aid is a provocation, then so be it. But US forces also delivered Tsunami relief among other recent historical disasters...But yes, it is meant to ratchet up pressure on the Russians...

In any case, the Ossetians and Georgians have historically exchanged fire in August...

[Nickdfresh]

You mentioned Afghanistan and shared recently read material on it... that is it.

Actually, Chevan mentioned it first...

Of course they were. But again you forget that Afghanistan is not USA's underbelly but Soviet's. Just like Georgia is Russia's underbelly now. Rising Sun has mentioned it already.
The last time USSR set-up rockets in USA's underbelly there was a lot of complaints. So it is not as streight forward as it seems.

Underbelly or not, they are an autonomous country. And the US also has never invaded Cuba unless you consider the Bay of Pigs debacle an invasion...

There are no real rockets in Georgia bigger than Katyusha ones, otherwise they would have been used. The main reason is that the Russian gov't doesn't like the Georgians working with the West...

[Rising Sun*]

From what I've heard of Indonesian forces, I doubt you've too much to worry about. I guess they don't do so well against those that can really shoot back...

They outnumber us about ten to one.

Give every one of them a broomstick and they should be able to beat us into submission.

Their good forces are fairly good, but generally not up to the best standards of special forces in the West. On the other hand, they have a lot of them.

Their biggest problems are a lack of unified arms (in the sense of weapons, not corps), logistics, and command, which deprives them of the ability to sustain a long war with anyone. Plus sea transport problems which limits their capacity for long term war beyond their islands. I hope.

[Egorka]

Underbelly or not, they are an autonomous country. And the US also has never invaded Cuba unless you consider the Bay of Pigs debacle an invasion...That is right Gerogia is autonomus country.
An autonomus country with two break away regions. The conflicts were raging there since colaps of USSR and by far not only because of Russian stir up. The antipaty between Gerogians and Abhazians and Osetians has ows routes. So Georgia in modern times - since 1992 - always had these issues. And as some people argue it is a bit open question if unified Georgia has really been existing since 1992 until today. That is one thing.

Specificly the South Osetian issue has an extra dimention to it: the North Osetia is in Russia. Which means that this was has also internal Russian reason to it - Russias central goverment had to assist South Osetian or rist loosing the main ally of the Federal Goverment in Caucasus.


There are no real rockets in Georgia bigger than Katyusha ones, otherwise they would have been used. The main reason is that the Russian gov't doesn't like the Georgians working with the West...Of course they do not. Just like US goverment does not like Cuba.

[Chevan]

The main reason is that the Russian gov't doesn't like the Georgians working with the West...
Not true.
You see all the states of former USSR today works and co-operats with West.
Kazahs