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Nickdfresh
08-08-2008, 02:23 PM
Russia, Georgia troops battle on border
Hundreds of deaths alleged in region's capital as tanks, aircraft deploy
MSNBC News Services
updated 12:46 p.m. ET, Fri., Aug. 8, 2008

TSKHINVALI, Georgia - Russia sent tanks and reportedly bombed Georgian air bases Friday after Georgia launched a major military offensive Friday to retake the breakaway province of South Ossetia, threatening to ignite a broader conflict

Georgia’s pro-Western president said the two countries were at war, while the Bush administration urged both sides to reach a truce and said it was sending an envoy to the region.

South Ossetia’s rebel leader Eduard Kokoity claimed there were ”hundreds of dead civilians” in the region's capital of Tskhinvali, Russia’s Interfax news agency quoted him as saying. The fighting is the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de facto independence in a war that ended in 1992.

The roar of warplanes and the explosions of heavy shells were deafening around Tskhinvali. Many houses were ablaze.

“I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars,” said Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who had fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia. “It’s impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged.”

The main hospital in Tskhinvali had ceased functioning and ambulances were unable to reach wounded civilians, the International Red Cross reported.

"As a result of many hours of shelling from heavy guns, the town is practically destroyed," Marat Kulakhmetov, commander of Russian peacekeepers in the territory, earlier told Interfax by telephone from Tskhinvali.

Russian artillery near capital
A senior Russian military commander said parts of Russia’s 58th army were outside the capital, where fighting raged between Russian-backed separatists and Georgian forces sent in on Friday to seize it.

"Georgian troop positions firing on Tskhinvali and peacekeepers were suppressed by artillery fire and tank units of the 58th Army, which are outside the capital of South Ossetia," said Russian Army Col. Igor Konashenkov.

Ten Russian peacekeepers were killed and 30 wounded when their barracks were hit in Georgian shelling, said Russian Ground Forces spokesman Col. Igor Konashenkov. Russia has soldiers in South Ossetia as peacekeeping forces but Georgia alleges they back the separatists.

Georgia's foreign ministry said Russian jets destroyed several Georgian military aircraft and inflicted unspecified casualties. It said that Russian aircraft also bombed another base in Bolnisi.

Rustavi 2 television says four people were killed and five others wounded at the Marneuli air base.

Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili said 150 Russian tanks, armored personnel carriers and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia from neighboring Russia.

“Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory,” Saakashvili told CNN, calling on Washington to help.

A White House spokesman said that President Bush and Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin had discussed the situation in Beijing, where both are attending the Olympic Games.

Bush later pledged U.S. support for Georgia's territorial integrity. "I want to reiterate on his behalf that the United States supports Georgia's territorial integrity and we call for an immediate cease-fire," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

"We urge all parties, Georgians, South Ossetians and Russians, to de-escalate the tension and avoid conflict," she added.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov accused Georgia of driving people from their homes. “We are receiving reports that a policy of ethnic cleansing was being conducted in villages in South Ossetia, the number of refugees is climbing, the panic is growing, people are trying to save their lives,” he said.

Georgia has allied itself with the West and is pushing for membership in NATO, a bid strongly backed by the Bush administration. It lies at the heart of a region emerging as a vital energy transit route.

World distracted by Olympics?
The fighting broke out when much of the world’s attention was focused on the start of the Olympic Games and many leaders were on their way to Beijing.

Saakashvili, who insists his government’s military action was provoked, noted the timing in an interview with CNN. “Most decision makers have gone for the holidays,” he said. “Brilliant moment to attack a small country.”

Speaking earlier on Georgian television, Saakashvili accused Russia of sending aircraft to bomb Georgian territory, which Russia denied.

Putin did, however, warn that the Georgian attack would draw retaliation and his defense ministry pledged to protect South Ossetians, most of whom have Russian citizenship.

Georgia, which borders the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the breakup of the Soviet Union. The country has angered Russia by seeking NATO membership — a bid Moscow regards as part of a Western effort to weaken its influence in the region.

Georgia also has about 2,000 troops in Iraq, making it the third-largest contributor to coalition forces after the United States and Britain. On Friday, it said it would redeploy 1,000 of those troops to South Ossetia.

Georgia’s president said Russian aircraft bombed several Georgian villages and other civilian facilities.

“A full-scale aggression has been launched against Georgia,” Saakashvili said in a televised statement. He also announced a full military mobilization with reservists being called into action.

Seven civilians were wounded when three Russian Su-24 jet bombers flew into Georgia and bombed the town of Gori and the villages of Kareli and Variani, Deputy Interior Minister Eka Sguladze said at a briefing.

She said that four Russian jets later bombed Gori, the hometown of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, but that raid didn’t cause any casualties.

Some villagers fled into Russia.

“I saw them (the Georgians) shelling my village,” said Maria, who gave only her first name. She said she and other villagers spent the night in a field and then fled toward the Russian border as the fighting escalated.

Russian official criticizes ‘dirty adventure’
A senior Russian diplomat in charge of the South Ossetian conflict, Yuri Popov, dismissed the Georgian claims of Russian bombings as misinformation, the RIA-Novosti news agency reported.

Russia’s defense ministry denounced the Georgian attack as a “dirty adventure.”

“Blood shed in South Ossetia will weigh on their conscience,” the ministry said in a statement posted on its Web site. “We will protect our peacekeepers and Russian citizens,” it said without elaboration.

Russia’s President Dmitry Medvedev later chaired a session of his Security Council in the Kremlin, vowing that Moscow will protect Russian citizens.

“In accordance with the constitution and federal law, I, as president of Russia, am obliged to protect lives and dignity of Russian citizens wherever they are located,” Medvedev said, according to Russian news reports. “We won’t allow the death of our compatriots to go unpunished.”

Saakashvili long has pledged to restore Tbilisi’s rule over South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia. Both regions have run their own affairs without international recognition since splitting from Georgia in the early 1990s and built up ties with Moscow.

Worsening relations
Relations between Georgia and Russia worsened notably this year as Georgia pushed to join NATO and Russia dispatched additional peacekeeper forces to Abkhazia.

The Georgian attack came just hours after Saakashvili announced a unilateral cease-fire in a television broadcast late Thursday in which he also urged South Ossetian separatist leaders to enter talks on resolving the conflict.

Georgian officials later blamed South Ossetian separatists for thwarting the cease-fire by shelling Georgian villages in the area.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26080747/)

Churchill
08-08-2008, 02:33 PM
I heard about this on BBC World... Think the Russians want to take back some of the Soviet land?

Drake
08-08-2008, 03:10 PM
We'll see if the russians just expell the georgian army from ossetia as nato did in kosovo with the serbs or if they push into the rest of georgia.

Chevan
08-08-2008, 04:05 PM
I heard about this on BBC World... Think the Russians want to take back some of the Soviet land?
A bul...t.
Just Osetians did n't wish to come back to Georgia.Who pretty genocided them in 1992-93.
I saw a couple of CNN reports about it.
Pure Cold war propogand.
The EuroNews is more or less objective.

Nickdfresh
08-08-2008, 04:50 PM
Genocide you say?

Chevan
08-09-2008, 01:26 AM
No ,of course.
Osetians say it.

alephh
08-09-2008, 04:21 AM
Well, after years of ceaseless provoking, Russia finally got their conflict. Georgia managed to stay cool surprisingly long time, considering they week after week endured attacks by Russian-backed separatists (some say terrorists) in their own country.

Remember: Almost all the countries in the world (except Russia) have admitted that South-Ossetia is legally part of Georgia and that they can do whatever they want in their own country, so the Russian decision to send their troops in Georgia equals Russia sending their troops to attack United States, France or any other independent country.

"Funniest" part is that when Chechenia wanted a little bit of independence Russia cruelly crushed it, and now that Ossetia wants some independence Russia supports it ;-D Chechenia should start another uprising because "clearly Russia wants each and every area to gain their independence" ;-D

Too bad for US/EU that the only pipeline not controlled by Russia/Iran goes through Georgia, and if Russia gets chokehold of it, it won't be happy times for western world.

Remember that dictator, oh sorry, prime minister Putin immediately declared - without needing to consult Russian President or Russian Parliament - "a real war has broken out." (no wonder most of the russians say in polls that they think Putin still has all the power)

It was also damn funny (and eating away Russia's credibility) that even when Internet/tv/etc were filled with photos/footage of Russian aircrafts bombing Georgia, Russia still continued to claim that "we haven't done any air attacks" %-D

After Russian President Medvedev said Russian troops are there to protect civilians, reports started to pour in from red cross members that Russians are bombing civilians (women, kids) in Poti, and Reuters staff reported that civilians (women, kids) are bombarded by Russians in Gor. I guess one could argue that after civilians are killed and buried six feet under they genuinely and finally are "protected".

http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135238466760.jpeg

Pic: Georgian woman in Gor (faa-aaa-aaar away from war zone) experiences some Russian "civilian protection" in the form of airstrike.

_

Chevan
08-09-2008, 10:19 AM
Oh come on alepthh - this is TOO banal and TOO foolish to blame the ONLY Russia in the 20-years Georgian-Osetian bloody ethnical conflict.

Remember: Almost all the countries in the world (except Russia) have admitted that South-Ossetia is legally part of Georgia and that they can do whatever they want in their own country, so the Russian decision to send their troops in Georgia equals Russia sending their troops to attack United States, France or any other independent country.
Oh really?
So why almost all states of so called " the world" ( including the Finland) voted to tear the Serbian land into the pieces last year?Why "all the states" has admitted that Kosovo is an independent state, but Osetia is not?
Why the Osetia should be the part of the state that genocided them during the previous war?

It was also damn funny (and eating away Russia's credibility) that even when Internet/tv/etc were filled with photos/footage of Russian aircrafts bombing Georgia, Russia still continued to claim that "we haven't done any air attacks" %-D

Oh not internet but ONLY rushophobian part of it:(
The "internet " that repeat just the couple of photos of Georgian victims.
Kepp silence about 1600 killed civils in Tshinvaly and ethnical cleanings in the villages , cuptured by Georgian army. during last nigts and days unfair Georgian attack with "Grad" Jet Mortar, Su-25 and Howitzers.
The Europen channel Euronews has demonstrated all of that facts pretty clear including the rise of humanitartian catastrophe in Osetia.

Chevan
08-09-2008, 10:30 AM
Pic: Georgian woman in Gor (faa-aaa-aaar away from war zone) experiences some Russian "civilian protection" in the form of airstrike.

_
Specially for whom have the "limited biased internet".
So called "faa-aaaa-aaar Gori" is a place of Georgian military base and airfield, where from the GEorgian Su-25 taking off to bomb civils in the Tshinvaly.
The distance between the Tshinvaly and Gore is no more 30 km- very close for tactical aviation.

alephh
08-09-2008, 05:33 PM
Man, seriously, I love Russia (ask any of my friends), I think that Russia had/has the best authors and artists in the world. And the sense of nostalgia, mmm... :-)

But I just cannot stand the way Russia often fails to output any fact based news/information/etc.

So if it's totally ok for state responsible for hundreds of thousands of people (Russia) to produce out-of-this-world information by pretty insanely selective methods, why cannot I do the same on a smaller scale? ;-D

It's also seems that Russia really just don't care about the poor South-Ossetia at all, every time South-Ossetia request something (like recognizing South-Ossetia as an independent country), Russia just crushes their hopes, and Putin starts to explain how he really really would like to add the South-Ossetia area to the mighty Russian empire. In my eyes that's not caring about (South)-Ossetia, that's about seizing more land to your own empire.

And sure, Georgia has done bad things in South Ossetia (just like Russia has done bad things in South Ossetia, and just like South Ossetia has done bad things to Georgians), but too bad that not too many outside Russian state-owned news stations seem to have noticed the "ethnical cleanings" - sometimes even not those living in the very villages in the very moment when Russia claims that they are under ethnical cleanings.

You see the problem here: when information provided by Russia has been proved to be total b*llsh*t so many times during the recent years, it just completely erases any credibility about anything they say.

And about Serbia:

Huge number of free countries in the world got enough reliable information from hundreds of different sources about what was going on (really bad things) in the Serbia, and warned them over and over and over and over again, year after year. Serbia didn't listen. Before those really bad things, world just didn't care about Kosovo wanting to be independent because it was legally part of Serbia, and they could do anything with Kosova as long as it wasn't direct killing process. They crossed the line, many times, badly, and everybody (in the free countries) knew about it. So they (eventually) paid the price.

But hey, I totally understand that Serbians feel pissed. And of unrelated note: I think they are the country with most talented teams in ball-and-skills-related-sports, like soccer, basketball, etc.

But here's the difference: South-Ossetia have requested many times to be independent - and Russia has always been totally against that. Let me make it clear here: RUSSIA IS AGAINST INDEPENDENT SOUTH-OSSETIA. Totally. And it seems that Russia is against their independence now too because they just won't acknowledge their independence, no matter how many times South-Ossetia requests it. And South-Ossetia just moments ago requested Russia to acknowledge them, and Russia totally skipped that request immediately. So what the hell Russia is doing there? Protecting their citizens, come on...

There are so many (foreign/decent/intelligence) people in South-Ossetia that if Georgia really started to mass murder people there, several countries would get several reports about it. And they would act against Georgia - just the like they did against Serbia. But nothing like that is reported - except by the very shaky Russian sources - nobody else seems to be seeing it even if they live there. So, no reason for any country on this planet to attack Georgia.

One difference between Russia and many many many countries is this: In Finland, France, US, UK, EU, etc... you can request money from authorities to write a book about how those authorities suck, and you have a decent chance to get funds. Any system which gives money to a person who wants to beat the hell out of that very system, has to be a very strong system. And in those kind of systems, information (for the majority) tends to be correct, because outright lies are fiercely discredited. Couple of years ago several Finnish groups thinking that "EU really sucks", asked and received funds from EU to travel to Bryssels to demonstrate publicly against EU. I do not see that kind of stuff happening in Russia, where those who criticize the system/Putin/etc way too often end up dead or in prison.


_

Nickdfresh
08-09-2008, 06:42 PM
Oh come on alepthh - this is TOO banal and TOO foolish to blame the ONLY Russia in the 20-years Georgian-Osetian bloody ethnical conflict.

I agree with this. I've read in the "biased Western media" that it was the Georgians that launched an all out artillery strike on Ossetian separatists AFTER both parties agreed to a ceasefire...


Oh really?
So why almost all states of so called " the world" ( including the Finland) voted to tear the Serbian land into the pieces last year?Why "all the states" has admitted that Kosovo is an independent state, but Osetia is not?
Why the Osetia should be the part of the state that genocided them during the previous war?

Oh not internet but ONLY rushophobian part of it:(
The "internet " that repeat just the couple of photos of Georgian victims.
Kepp silence about 1600 killed civils in Tshinvaly and ethnical cleanings in the villages , cuptured by Georgian army. during last nigts and days unfair Georgian attack with "Grad" Jet Mortar, Su-25 and Howitzers.
The Europen channel Euronews has demonstrated all of that facts pretty clear including the rise of humanitartian catastrophe in Osetia.


But the Russian gov't seems to be be continuing the carnage and expanding the scope of the attacks well beyond the Ossetia territory in dispute...

And I was wondering what the origin of the charge of genocide against the Georgians originates...

RifleMan20
08-10-2008, 12:58 AM
Hey, look what this airsoft forum sent me, this is extreamly wierd, BTW it involves this so its not off topic of the off topic topic.....you know wat i mean.



Hello RifleMan20,

As you probably already know (if you’ve been around long enough) here at AirsoftForum.com (ASF), we don’t normally allow political discussions as they are usually heated, pointless, and circular. I also appreciate the fact that many of you are too young to even care about world news or politics, so we normally don’t comment or alert you of issues unless they are major.

Additionally, we announced the launch of our new Civil Defense website a few weeks ago specifically for the purpose of helping people prepare for terrorist attacks and other disasters. If you missed that announcement for some reason, here it is:
http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/Airsoft-Game-You-t119402.html

You should take a look at the above topic if you have any interest in world news, being prepared for terrorist attacks, or any other disasters like I am about to tell...

Today is 08/08/08 and the beginning of the Olympics in China as most of you know, but strangely enough and shortly after the commencing of the Olympics this morning, Russia has began a full out attack on the country of Georgia just north of Iran and Iraq.

This is not a joke and pretty serious so I implore you pay attention to what is going on over there as this could very well be the beginning of WWIII. Now before a lot of you start in with the conspiracy crap, stop to educate yourself before speaking on stuff you have no idea about.

The United States has thousands of Marines, Army and Special Forces over there already supporting allied forces. Russia has already told us, NATO and UN Forces (3 months ago) to back off and pull our troops out of the surrounding areas or they will use preemptive nuclear strikes against our allied forces.

This is an all-out war with US backed allied forces fighting Russia and is pretty serious business and will most likely affect us here in the USA both directly and indirectly as this escalates.

The building conflict over there has been in the news for months with little innuendo news stories popping up here and there about how the US wants to go into Iran (which is backed by Russia and China). We have also been hearing how Israel (which is backed by the USA) and Iran have been in a pissing match for some time now and that is also heating up over there and we could very possibly go to war with Iran in the next few months, but then today ‘all of hell is breaking loose’ over there in Georgia, just north of Iran.

As I said earlier, this is not a joke and I encourage you to pay attention to what’s happening over there. But if you couldn’t care less, that’s cool too – just delete this email now. I’m simply trying to get a message out to the thousands of people who do care and if you’re not one of them – that’s fine – don’t bite my head off for sending you this – I’m sending it to everyone :-)

I sent a similar email (as this one) to our 300+ YCD members a couple of hours ago and that is where we will be discussing this topic. Normally when I send out an ASF announcement, I allow you to click on a link that sends you to the topic so you can reply on the ASF website, but not this time. There will not be any discussion about this on ASF as we don’t discuss politics or world news there unless it relates to Airsoft in some way and this doesn’t. If you want to talk about this or make a comment, please continue this discussion on the YCD website: http://www.yourcivildefense.com/board/index.php?showtopic=300

In closing I want to say thanks for taking the time to read through this. I will not be receiving or responding to emails at this time, so if you want to get a message to me about this, you must post your message on the board as I have not checked my email in months.

Please turn on CNN right now to hear what’s being reported about this in our main stream news. Please also tune in www.WTPRN.com (We The People Radio Network) to hear the alternative news. You can also find other alternative news such as the BBC and other outside sources if you look for it.

Please empower yourself with knowledge of what is going on over there. If you can hang out in front of your PC for awhile or spend some time on the telephone, please tune in WTPRN for alternative news that isn’t being reported here in the USA. You can listen by either telephone or internet: http://wtprn.com/listen.shtml or listen the live broadcast via telephone: 1-512-485-9010

Belfast Telegraph, World News:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/georgia-russia-has-invaded-and-we-are-under-attack-13934899.html

CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.ossetia/index.html?eref=ib_topstories

Other sources via Google: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=russia+attack+georgia

This is a VERY Big Deal – Please pay attention. If you would like to comment on this, please click the following link to continue this discussion at YourCivilDefense.com:
http://www.yourcivildefense.com/board/index.php?showtopic=300

HOWEVER - PLEASE KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE POSTING NONSENSE, (you will only do that by researching both sides of the issue). Otherwise, don’t be surprised if knee-jerk posts or replies are simply deleted without explanation.

-admin

Talk about paranoid. And any Russians on here, I don't believe much about this letter so don't think wrong.

Nickdfresh
08-10-2008, 01:47 PM
Man, seriously, I love Russia (ask any of my friends), I think that Russia had/has the best authors and artists in the world. And the sense of nostalgia, mmm... :-)

But I just cannot stand the way Russia often fails to output any fact based news/information/etc.

So if it's totally ok for state responsible for hundreds of thousands of people (Russia) to produce out-of-this-world information by pretty insanely selective methods, why cannot I do the same on a smaller scale? ;-D

It's also seems that Russia really just don't care about the poor South-Ossetia at all, every time South-Ossetia request something (like recognizing South-Ossetia as an independent country), Russia just crushes their hopes, and Putin starts to explain how he really really would like to add the South-Ossetia area to the mighty Russian empire. In my eyes that's not caring about (South)-Ossetia, that's about seizing more land to your own empire.

And sure, Georgia has done bad things in South Ossetia (just like Russia has done bad things in South Ossetia, and just like South Ossetia has done bad things to Georgians), but too bad that not too many outside Russian state-owned news stations seem to have noticed the "ethnical cleanings" - sometimes even not those living in the very villages in the very moment when Russia claims that they are under ethnical cleanings.

You see the problem here: when information provided by Russia has been proved to be total b*llsh*t so many times during the recent years, it just completely erases any credibility about anything they say.

And about Serbia:

Huge number of free countries in the world got enough reliable information from hundreds of different sources about what was going on (really bad things) in the Serbia, and warned them over and over and over and over again, year after year. Serbia didn't listen. Before those really bad things, world just didn't care about Kosovo wanting to be independent because it was legally part of Serbia, and they could do anything with Kosova as long as it wasn't direct killing process. They crossed the line, many times, badly, and everybody (in the free countries) knew about it. So they (eventually) paid the price.

But hey, I totally understand that Serbians feel pissed. And of unrelated note: I think they are the country with most talented teams in ball-and-skills-related-sports, like soccer, basketball, etc.

But here's the difference: South-Ossetia have requested many times to be independent - and Russia has always been totally against that. Let me make it clear here: RUSSIA IS AGAINST INDEPENDENT SOUTH-OSSETIA. Totally. And it seems that Russia is against their independence now too because they just won't acknowledge their independence, no matter how many times South-Ossetia requests it. And South-Ossetia just moments ago requested Russia to acknowledge them, and Russia totally skipped that request immediately. So what the hell Russia is doing there? Protecting their citizens, come on...

There are so many (foreign/decent/intelligence) people in South-Ossetia that if Georgia really started to mass murder people there, several countries would get several reports about it. And they would act against Georgia - just the like they did against Serbia. But nothing like that is reported - except by the very shaky Russian sources - nobody else seems to be seeing it even if they live there. So, no reason for any country on this planet to attack Georgia.

One difference between Russia and many many many countries is this: In Finland, France, US, UK, EU, etc... you can request money from authorities to write a book about how those authorities suck, and you have a decent chance to get funds. Any system which gives money to a person who wants to beat the hell out of that very system, has to be a very strong system. And in those kind of systems, information (for the majority) tends to be correct, because outright lies are fiercely discredited. Couple of years ago several Finnish groups thinking that "EU really sucks", asked and received funds from EU to travel to Bryssels to demonstrate publicly against EU. I do not see that kind of stuff happening in Russia, where those who criticize the system/Putin/etc way too often end up dead or in prison.


_

Spot on.

Drake
08-10-2008, 06:00 PM
According to our Spiegel magazine it seems as if the Russians actually do have other intentions than just defending the Ossetians, they seem to have ground troops in purely georgian territory now. Sorry to tell it to you Chevan, but now you're officially the evil ones in this mess, no matter who started the actual shooting this time.

Egorka
08-11-2008, 05:02 AM
According to our Spiegel magazine it seems as if the Russians actually do have other intentions than just defending the Ossetians, they seem to have ground troops in purely georgian territory now.
Yes, "it seems as if".... But who knows... maybe...
Can you specify which territories were mentioned in Spiegel?

Chevan
08-11-2008, 05:53 AM
Man, seriously, I love Russia (ask any of my friends), I think that Russia had/has the best authors and artists in the world. And the sense of nostalgia, mmm... :-)

Whom of your frined might i ask - just if the Fennica:)He loves russia i know:)
OK, if serious, do you really think that to DEFEND your citizents from enemy is a nostalgia ?


But I just cannot stand the way Russia often fails to output any fact based news/information/etc.

So if it's totally ok for state responsible for hundreds of thousands of people (Russia) to produce out-of-this-world information by pretty insanely selective methods, why cannot I do the same on a smaller scale? ;-D

you can of cource.
But please do not pretend that this is ONLY true poit, OK:)


It's also seems that Russia really just don't care about the poor South-Ossetia at all, every time South-Ossetia request something (like recognizing South-Ossetia as an independent country), Russia just crushes their hopes, and Putin starts to explain how he really really would like to add the South-Ossetia area to the mighty Russian empire. In my eyes that's not caring about (South)-Ossetia, that's about seizing more land to your own empire.

OK good point.
I/m agree with you .
Indeed Putin refuse a to recognize S. Osetia on political resaons.
Becouse as may be you know the USA has supported Georgian in this matter ( Georgia claim this is OURS own territory).
But i think today something has changed.
Will see.


And sure, Georgia has done bad things in South Ossetia (just like Russia has done bad things in South Ossetia, and just like South Ossetia has done bad things to Georgians), but too bad that not too many outside Russian state-owned news stations seem to have noticed the "ethnical cleanings" - sometimes even not those living in the very villages in the very moment when Russia claims that they are under ethnical cleanings.

Right point , but not full.
You pretty right about genocied -it was MUTUAL.
But also know in Serbia was a MUTUAL genocide of Serbs and Kosovars.
But tell me honestly -how many state-owned mass news stations noticed the "ethnical cleansing" or crimes against their civils in Serbia?


You see the problem here: when information provided by Russia has been proved to be total b*llsh*t so many times during the recent years, it just completely erases any credibility about anything they say.

I do understand you point.
You can not trust to it.
But say me please honestly ( again) can you trust the CNN for instance that "provided a truly sources" that in Iraq there are a MDW in 2003 ?
Hardly.
But why do you think that Their lie should be better the Russian one?


And about Serbia:

Huge number of free countries in the world got enough reliable information from hundreds of different sources about what was going on (really bad things) in the Serbia, and warned them over and over and over and over again, year after year. Serbia didn't listen. Before those really bad things, world just didn't care about Kosovo wanting to be independent because it was legally part of Serbia, and they could do anything with Kosova as long as it wasn't direct killing process. They crossed the line, many times, badly, and everybody (in the free countries) knew about it. So they (eventually) paid the price.

OK.
They have paid fo bad things they did.Right
But tell me again - Georgia who took the obligation to to use the military force to solve the Ethnical and territorial problem ?
Was it good thing to start the solution from Mortar fire on City full of sleeping peoples?
Was it right to attack the battalion of Peacekeepers ( about 500 mans )armed by AK and light armored cars with Tanks and Howitzers?
Was it right to execute wounded soldiers?
Hardly.
So they have made a lot of nasty things.
And would have paid for that.


But hey, I totally understand that Serbians feel pissed. And of unrelated note: I think they are the country with most talented teams in ball-and-skills-related-sports, like soccer, basketball, etc.

Yes they have a talent teams.. but dumn they have no right to own their land, right.


But here's the difference: South-Ossetia have requested many times to be independent - and Russia has always been totally against that. Let me make it clear here: RUSSIA IS AGAINST INDEPENDENT SOUTH-OSSETIA. Totally. And it seems that Russia is against their independence now too because they just won't acknowledge their independence, no matter how many times South-Ossetia requests it. And South-Ossetia just moments ago requested Russia to acknowledge them, and Russia totally skipped that request immediately. So what the hell Russia is doing there? Protecting their citizens, come on...

Again all this right points.
But ,for sake of true, why you don't wish to ask S.ossetians what to hell do russians here?
Why do you use the westrn media as a "source" instead to learn the real oppinion of Osetians?
And how many Osetians want back to Georgia on your mind?


There are so many (foreign/decent/intelligence) people in South-Ossetia that if Georgia really started to mass murder people there, several countries would get several reports about it. And they would act against Georgia - just the like they did against Serbia. But nothing like that is reported - except by the very shaky Russian sources - nobody else seems to be seeing it even if they live there. So, no reason for any country on this planet to attack Georgia.

Oh yea, so tell me just single foreign/decent/intelligence groups/here here?
Why we didn't listen ANY their reports from Osetia?
And how many reporters or journalists have been sended to Osetia since 8 august?


One difference between Russia and many many many countries is this: In Finland, France, US, UK, EU, etc... you can request money from authorities to write a book about how those authorities suck, and you have a decent chance to get funds.

But tell me please why in France ( and in some other states of EU) the special laws that prosecute the revisionist then?


Any system which gives money to a person who wants to beat the hell out of that very system, has to be a very strong system. And in those kind of systems, information (for the majority) tends to be correct, because outright lies are fiercely discredited. Couple of years ago several Finnish groups thinking that "EU really sucks", asked and received funds from EU to travel to Bryssels to demonstrate publicly against EU. I do not see that kind of stuff happening in Russia, where those who criticize the system/Putin/etc way too often end up dead or in prison.
_
Right you can demonstrate - and WHAT WILL DEPEND ON YOUR VOICE or Books?
The Globalisation is the sort of totalitarism , isn't it?
We have alot of different oppinion and critic points of Putin-it is not forbidden especialy in Internet.( you simply can't forbid or bann it)
Besides, do you accidentally know, what was happend with Georgian opposition leaders last years?

Egorka
08-11-2008, 06:08 AM
According to our Spiegel magazine it seems as if the Russians actually do have other intentions than just defending the Ossetians, they seem to have ground troops in purely georgian territory now. Sorry to tell it to you Chevan, but now you're officially the evil ones in this mess, no matter who started the actual shooting this time.
This a Spiegel article from 09-August, Sat.



http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,571079,00.html
...
About 1,000 people died on both sides in the ensuing two-and-a-half-year war, and tens of thousands of Georgians were driven out of South Ossetia. Then former Russian President Boris Yeltsin and Gamsakhurdia's successor, former Russian Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze, signed a ceasefire agreement. Although that agreement was occasionally violated, it remained largely intact until last week.
...
Faced with this prospect, Medvedev will continue what Putin once began. The former Kremlin chief repeatedly stressed that a "precedent" was set when the United States, Great Britain and other NATO states recognized the independence of the former Serbian province of Kosovo. It was at that point that Moscow reasoned that it could claim the same right for the South Ossetians and the Abkhazians, another group seeking independence from Georgia, and it demonstratively expanded its support for the two separatist provinces. At the same time, a speedy conquest of Tskhinvali became even less of a reality for Saakashvili.
...
In July, 1,000 US soldiers and 600 Georgian infantrymen participated in an exercise dubbed "Immediate Response." The official objective was to prepare for deployment in Afghanistan, but the true goal was to fight Russian volunteers who, in case of a serious conflict, would come to the aid of the separatist regimes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

This is precisely what could happen now. On Friday evening, there were reports that the first Russian patriots were headed for South Ossetia -- at a time when the world was still puzzled over what could have prompted the Georgian president to launch his military strike.
...
"It's not about Georgia anymore. It's about America, its values," the Georgian president told CNN in a live broadcast on Friday. "We are a freedom-loving nation that is right now under attack. "

But it doesn't appear that Saakashvili is entirely blameless in the matter.

Anyway... every side is playing dirty game... I do not even know what to think... Seems like the only choise is the choise between four evils...

Chevan
08-11-2008, 06:21 AM
According to our Spiegel magazine it seems as if the Russians actually do have other intentions than just defending the Ossetians, they seem to have ground troops in purely georgian territory now. Sorry to tell it to you Chevan, but now you're officially the evil ones in this mess, no matter who started the actual shooting this time.

Don't worry Drake , i understand what do you mean.
Now the Russian are the "evil side".
The bss,ds killed our peacekepeers, our sitizents in Tshinvali ( many of civils here have the russians pasports) and then they cry : "Help, russians kick our ***"
Do you know what i think.
Somethimes you HAVE TO BE evil, purely for good aims in future.
Remember Israel attacked Lebanon 2005?
With no formal reasons?The Army of Lebanon did not attacked them, right.
But the GEorgian army has attacked us.
And what - did somebody complain to the "Evil Israel"?:)
You see , the bad job is a good job indeed.
The "War with terrorism" is hard thing, and i don't think we have to use only the UK/US concept of it(agains the Muslims terrorists) , becouse the Georgian army behave like a group of terrorists.

Man of Stoat
08-11-2008, 07:33 AM
To put it bluntly, the Russians have a 100% track record of not deserving the benefit of the doubt. This is also not the first time that they have used the "Sudetenland pretext", so why should they deserve the benefit of the doubt now?

Egorka
08-11-2008, 08:13 AM
To put it bluntly, the Russians have a 100% track record of not deserving the benefit of the doubt. This is also not the first time that they have used the "Sudetenland pretext", so why should they deserve the benefit of the doubt now?
benefit of the doubt?
Doubt about what exactly?

Do you have perception of what is going on there? How whould you explain what is happening?

Rising Sun*
08-11-2008, 08:25 AM
Am I missing something here?

Isn't there an important oil pipeline or two through Georgia?

Which supply America, among other oil hungry nations?

And America has provided military support to Georgia?


If the positions were reversed, how would America react to Russia training Canada's military forces while Canada had oil pipelines crossing it for Russia's benefit, and Russian sponsored and aligned Canada had launched a military attack on one of its provinces on America's border which wanted to unite with America?

I think what is happening in Ossetia is appalling and should be stopped immediately because people are being dispossessed and hurt and killed, but politicians in warring nations and their sponsors never care about that so the reality is that Russia's actions should be judged by the conduct expected of a comparable nation in a similar position. In which case America and China and India would all act in exactly the same way.

It's got bugger all to do with who's morally right or who started it and everything to do with what is in the interests of the nations involved, and who has the most military and political power to get their way.

Putin and Bush couldn't give a shit who gets shot, as long as it's not them. This is a pity because if the clowns at the top took the same risks they send their soldiers off to face they'd take a different attitude. Well, Bush, at least, the draft dodging ***** who's currently lost over 4,000 lives of other Americans on an idiotic adventure in Iraq, about oil.

Ossetia is in part about oil, yet again, as well as big power politics and, among other things, Russia letting America know that Russia still has the military power and will to act as it always has in the past, so don't site an American missile defence shield in middle Europe or maybe Russia will advance there, too, because there's still life in the old dog.

Egorka
08-11-2008, 08:52 AM
There is NO oil in South osetia. The oil pipeline does NOT cross it either.

Right, no one is morally right there. That is why it is strange to listen how Russia gets blamed for everything, where it, in fact, deserves to be blamed only for half of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline
or
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/u/n/unokai/Btc_pipeline_route.png

Egorka
08-11-2008, 08:57 AM
This is also not the first time that they have used the "Sudetenland pretext", so why should they deserve the benefit of the doubt now?
The difference with Osetia and Sudetenland is that unlike in 1938, it was GEorgian military starting full scale military operation on Friday August 8th.
And what a coinsidence! The same day Olympic games in Beijin started - a sly attempt to jeopardise the oncoming olympic games in Sochi, Russia.

Yes, Russia acts like a bear, as always. But it does not mean that it has to be blamed for everything!

I am taking my chances calming that you know NOTHING about history of this conflict not how the things in Caucasus really work out. Yet you make brave conclusions.

Georgian rocket launcher baraging Tshinval last Friday BEFORE Russian Army moved in:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-34044-3.html#backToArticle=570893
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1264200,00.jpg

Rising Sun*
08-11-2008, 09:08 AM
There is NO oil in South osetia. The oil pipeline does NOT cross it either.

I know that.

Which is why I referred to pipelines crossing Georgia.

Just like on your map. ;)

Egorka
08-11-2008, 10:41 AM
I know that.
Which is why I referred to pipelines crossing Georgia.
Just like on your map. ;)
I know it is going through Georgia, but it is not crossing the territory of South Osetia.
Just like on my map. ;)

Churchill
08-11-2008, 03:10 PM
-Russia confirmed for the first time on Monday it had advanced beyond the borders of Abkhazia, saying it had launched an operation in the town of Senaki.

-And the conflict over South Ossetia also appeared to have widened, with Georgia accusing Russia of capturing the town of Gori, just 76km (47 miles) from Tbilisi.

-Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland issue a joint statement saying that as "once-captive nations of Eastern Europe" they share a "deep concern" about Russia's actions towards Georgia. - BBC World. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7554507.stm

I think Moscow can deny all the things that are happening, but they are happening. I seem more inclined to beleive Georgia, because as a defending nation, they wouldn't make up all this bull about being attacked.

Semper Fi
08-11-2008, 05:09 PM
Maybe the Russian government wants to bring the Russian power that they had during world war 2. But this not the way to handle this matter. Russian needs to back down and hol their fire or Nato my declare war on Russian and then Where is America, right in the center. Im onne the first to say attack Moscow but this is stuped. They can't win. even China has told them to back down.

So were dose this leave us. Out with or ( excuse my words ) asses in the wind. So Were does this leave us?

flamethrowerguy
08-11-2008, 06:08 PM
I just read in the newspaper today that there have been claims for Georgia to join the NATO in the recent past with The USA as a supporter. Well, that would have caused a major problem by now...

Churchill
08-11-2008, 06:11 PM
Haha, Georgia isn't even close to any NATO nation, much less the Atlantic Ocean.

flamethrowerguy
08-11-2008, 06:17 PM
Haha, Georgia isn't even close to any NATO nation, much less the Atlantic Ocean.

Well, it's still a fact they (Georgia) wanted to join...

Churchill
08-11-2008, 07:06 PM
I know, I was just pointing out the obvious...

Nickdfresh
08-12-2008, 12:19 AM
I know it is going through Georgia, but it is not crossing the territory of South Osetia.
Just like on my map. ;)

Just like the Russian Army...

Chevan
08-12-2008, 12:28 AM
Just like the Russian Army...
Just lik in Afganistan in 1979;):mrgreen:

Chevan
08-12-2008, 12:52 AM
Ossetia is in part about oil, yet again, as well as big power politics and, among other things, Russia letting America know that Russia still has the military power and will to act as it always has in the past, so don't site an American missile defence shield in middle Europe or maybe Russia will advance there, too, because there's still life in the old dog.

Its' not just about Oil ,mate.
there alot of russians who lives here in Osetia , Abhazia.
Althought the oil is probably importaint matter, but it's also a matter for USA who support the Georgian regime.
Do you know what is a lofe in Geogia accidentally?
Their pensioner get 20$ per month.
The unemployment is 61%.
This is a state-bankrupt.
At the same time his state has an biggest Army in region and strong Special forces and Police.
This is tupical Third world dictatorship that suppress any their inner opposition by rough police methods.
Insted to increase the life-level of its peoples- the dictator Saakachvili just do nothing except the Military hysteria.
And now this madman want to spread their power over Osetia and Abhazia- where the life-level higher then in Georgia ( becouse many peoples work in Russia).
Rgis is not starange - the local peoples don't wish to be joined to Georgia.Especialy by rough force.

Chevan
08-12-2008, 01:10 AM
But the Russian gov't seems to be be continuing the carnage and expanding the scope of the attacks well beyond the Ossetia territory in dispute...
...
As i know russians forces attack the Georgiam military aims outside of osetia.This is doing to break the Georgian war potential.
Nobody plans or wish to cupture the Georgian territory.

Semper Fi
08-12-2008, 01:32 AM
Well the Russian's could want the world to see that they have not lost their poweer in the eastern world. But it could also be that they may want their land back that they had when they where the USSR. Well at any rate they need to halt and give what they took back. Or Nato will make a strike on the Russians and then their will be a new World war. Im one of the frist to say attack and win against the russian's But this is a war with no end.

Now that is not a reason that the Russian gov. would want to bring to their people. I hope they can find a way to end this before any more are killed or wounded.

Rising Sun*
08-12-2008, 01:48 AM
Or Nato will make a strike on the Russians and then their will be a new World war.

Not while Western Europe depends upon Russian gas and oil, apart from any other reasons.

Chevan
08-12-2008, 02:25 AM
Oh come on.
Nobody will start the WW3 becouse of little dictators banan state that attacked "their civils" with Mortars in Tshinvali.
This is just hysteria, that has no any sense.
I/m sure the hostilities should have finished soon, just right after litle banan Military regime lost their ability to attack in future.

Man of Stoat
08-12-2008, 02:27 AM
So, Russia funds and arms separatists in a province of a new state which used to be part of its empire.
Russia hands out passports in said province like candy.
Armed separatists cause problems for the new state prompting a police action.
Russia then invades, claiming "protecting its citizens".
New state defends its sovereign territory, offers a ceasefire which basically gives away the breakaway province.
Russia declines, expands the war to the remainder of the state on the pretext of preventing retaliation.
Oh and look -- now Russia has control of ALL the gas and oil pipelines running from Central Asia to Europe.

It is transparently textbook stuff...

Chevan
08-12-2008, 02:55 AM
So, Russia funds and arms separatists in a province of a new state which used to be part of its empire.

Not true.
At the moment of attack the Osetians has only few old tanks. Georgians got about 150 re-armed and reequipment , supplied by Nato on American money.
Feel the deffirence who armed whom?
And in what scale.


Russia hands out passports in said province like candy.

Wrong .
The ANY people has right o take the Double sitezenship.
There a lot of people who has the double American-European.
Now say thet USA hands out pasports:)
BTW there are about 1 million of Georgians who have a Russian pasports
Say that Georgia is like a province of Russia:)


Armed separatists cause problems for the new state prompting a police action.

Police action ...with Howitzers, Tanks, Bombers and Mortars:shock:
are you crasy?
The "police action" that kills the 1600 civils calls by the other world:(


Russia then invades, claiming "protecting its citizens".

What russia has invided?
The S.Osetia?
Just ask a locals osetians WHo has invided them?


New state defends its sovereign territory, offers a ceasefire which basically gives away the breakaway province.

The other New state Serbia also pretty defended its territory by all means.
Now say the soveraign territory Kosovo has no right to be independent and protected:)


Russia declines, expands the war to the remainder of the state on the pretext of preventing retaliation.

True, Russia declines.
Becouse you have to punish agressors who calls the unfair attack on civils with Army as "Police action"


Oh and look -- now Russia has control of ALL the gas and oil pipelines running from Central Asia to Europe.

Oh yea so Russians has cuptured the Georgian Oil Pipe already?
I did know it.
Say me please the source where from you've learned it?

Man of Stoat
08-12-2008, 03:31 AM
Give it a week and they will have this pipeline.

So I take it as read is then that Georgia equally has the right to send its peacekeepers to Chechnya to punish Russian aggression, and expand into other parts of Caucasian Russia ? They do share a border, and I'm sure that there are at least a handful of Georgian nationals living there that need protection.

Rising Sun*
08-12-2008, 06:06 AM
I reckon Russia will stop when it's made its point, which is to demonstrate to Georgia that it will come off worst if it wants to push Russia over S. Ossetia or anything else.

Anyway, Russia has already achieved its main aim, which was to punish Gori for spawning Stalin. ;) :D

32Bravo
08-12-2008, 06:11 AM
I reckon Russia will stop when it's made its point, which is to demonstrate to Georgia that it will come off worst if it wants to push Russia over S. Ossetia or anything else.

Anyway, Russia has already achieved its main aim, which was to punish Gori for spawning Stalin. ;) :D

Like it. :)

This is an interesting thread; full of Coldwar prejudices, accusations and counter-accusations, and generally lots of double standards. Very entertaining. :)

Rising Sun*
08-12-2008, 06:24 AM
This is an interesting thread; full of Coldwar prejudices, accusations and counter-accusations, and generally lots of double standards. Very entertaining. :)

And here is the winner of the Most Shamelessly Hypocrital Stupid Statement Award, from the Idiot of Iraq.


US President George W Bush today warned Russia to reverse course in Georgia, saying Moscow had damaged its world standing.

"Russia has invaded a sovereign neighbouring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century,'' he said in his strongest condemnation yet of the fighting.

Mr Bush pressed Moscow to accept a Europe-crafted peace plan that calls for an immediate ceasefire, withdrawal of forces from the conflict zone, a return to the pre-August 6th status quo, and pledges to refrain from further use of force.

"Russia's government must respect Georgia's territorial integrity and sovereignty. The Russian Government must reverse the course it appears to be on and accept this peace agreement as a first step toward resolving this conflict,'' he said. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24166792-661,00.html

George has taken a special interest in Georgia purely because he thinks it's named after him. :D

32Bravo
08-12-2008, 06:26 AM
george has taken a special interest in georgia purely because he thinks it's named after him. :d


bravo, sir !!! :)

Chevan
08-12-2008, 07:26 AM
I reckon Russia will stop when it's made its point, which is to demonstrate to Georgia that it will come off worst if it wants to push Russia over S. Ossetia or anything else.

Anyway, Russia has already achieved its main aim, which was to punish Gori for spawning Stalin. ;) :D
You perfectly right mate.
The Gori will spawn no more Stalins in future:mrgreen:
World can live in calm:)
The war is over.
Medvedev said on TV the military operation has been stopped:)
Mission has accomplished
The ww3 has been rejected..

Chevan
08-12-2008, 07:31 AM
Give it a week and they will have this pipeline.

You have missed.

Rising Sun*
08-12-2008, 07:34 AM
Its' not just about Oil ,mate.

I meant it was about oil from the Western governments' perspective.

Do you think any Western government really cares much about Georgians?

Chevan
08-12-2008, 07:43 AM
I meant it was about oil from the Western governments' perspective.

Do you think any Western government really cares much about Georgians?
Hardly
But also i 'm not sure that Russian gov actualy cares ONLY about Ossetians;)

Rising Sun*
08-12-2008, 07:55 AM
Hardly
But also i 'm not sure that Russian gov actualy cares ONLY about Ossetians;)

Georgia's President should have learnt one thing, which Poland should note about the missile shield and which was part of the message in Russia's actions: America ain't gonna go to war with Russia just because Russia slaps a minor country on its borders for getting too close to America.

Poland should have had enough experience of being let down by supposed allies when threatened by Russia that Poland will get the message loud and clear.

Nickdfresh
08-12-2008, 08:05 AM
As i know russians forces attack the Georgiam military aims outside of osetia.This is doing to break the Georgian war potential.
Nobody plans or wish to cupture the Georgian territory.

Just like in Afghanistan?

Actually, I think the Russian gov't is playing a dangerous game of brinkmanship, and killing a good number of Georgians in the process...

Rising Sun*
08-12-2008, 08:10 AM
Actually, I think the Russian gov't is playing a dangerous game of brinkmanship, and killing a good number of Georgians in the process...

True, but isn't the US being dangerously provocative towards Russia by training Georgia's military?

Plus wanting to put the missile shield in Poland?

Kennedy didn't react too well to a somewhat similar, but rather different and more threatening act given the type of missile, when the Soviets put missiles into Cuba.

No nation likes being ringed by its potential enemy.

Chevan
08-12-2008, 08:20 AM
Just like in Afghanistan?

As i know the intervention to Afganistan was planned as "Liberation company" from most beginig.
the Soviet troops was planned to say here for a long time/ As long as it was needed.


Actually, I think the Russian gov't is playing a dangerous game of brinkmanship, and killing a good number of Georgians in the process...
Agree.
this is rather danger game.
But as truly write Rising Sun, the russians have no much choice.- The USA too intensive direct our neighbourds agains Russia, ignoring( or supporting) the anti-russian hysteria here.
The USA wage a danger game from most beginning.
Russia just says - no more of it HERE.
Lets play in Iraq and Iran as much as you wish. But Caucaus is a wrong place.
In some russians inner forums there is an oppinion that the "Georgian company" is the ONLY FIRST testing of Russian ability to resist to Washington expantion.
They need to learn where is going the Line that can't be crossed.

Chevan
08-12-2008, 08:25 AM
True, but isn't the US being dangerously provocative towards Russia by training Georgia's military?

Plus wanting to put the missile shield in Poland?

Kennedy didn't react too well to a somewhat similar, but rather different and more threatening act given the type of missile, when the Soviets put missiles into Cuba.

No nation likes being ringed by its potential enemy.

MAte , have you accidentally been recruited by FSB?:):):mrgreen:
Your posts look too pro-russian.

Rising Sun*
08-12-2008, 09:08 AM
Your posts look too pro-russian.

That's not what you said when we were debating Lend Lease and who won WWII. ;) :D

I can see why Russia would feel a bit beseiged by America, which insists on launching military actions all over the planet to protect American interests, while vigorously objecting to anyone else doing the same thing if it threatens American interests.

Add in Turkey and middle European nations joining NATO; America in Afghanistan and Iraq and threatening to go into Iran (which, if it does, will probably be the second time it's been humiliated there in the past three decades); a major air base in Kyrgyzstan; training Georgia's military and sponsoring it for NATO membership; and the Pacific fleet, and it's not hard to see why Russia feels it's being ringed by America.

Since the demise of the COMINTERN and the USSR, Russia hasn't been anywhere near as arrogant or aggressive as America outside its border areas, but now it's getting confident again about its economic, diplomatic and military power and starting to use it.

Which Bush the Idiot can't handle, so he lectures Russia about a limited week long incursion into Georgia after he's spent years ****ing Iraq over beyond all belief with a lot less justification than Russia had for going into Georgia. Or did I miss the American peacekeepers in Iraq killed by the Iraqis in an ill judged initiation of armed conflict as happened with S. Ossetia?

Egorka
08-12-2008, 10:00 AM
Just like in Afghanistan?
Maybe like in Afganistan... where USSR stupidly fell victim of American provocation. Do you know what I am talking about? ;)

32Bravo
08-12-2008, 10:11 AM
How good is that armour?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNNACX3SQKw

Egorka
08-12-2008, 10:31 AM
How good is that armour?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNNACX3SQKw
What do you mean?

Semper Fi
08-12-2008, 10:35 AM
Not while Western Europe depends upon Russian gas and oil, apart from any other reasons.

That is good, I did not think of the oil and gas part of the problem. But why attack a little country that has no worth, or better yet no value. Yes the lives of people are important but their is no reason for the Russian higharcy to invade this little ( pardion my words ) shit hole an leave the world in aw of what they are doing.


And yes I can't spell very well. O.K

32Bravo
08-12-2008, 10:44 AM
What do you mean?

Sorry, I don't speak Russian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t459NbF5Vek

Semper Fi
08-12-2008, 11:31 AM
Could the Russians be growing bigger balls and trying to tell the world that their back! and maybe their upset about how the Cold war ended. even so that not one round was fire at america and russia they still lost the battle and the war. But was the cold war more of a weapons race.

Churchill
08-12-2008, 11:39 AM
Apperantly, they're pulling out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/2/hi/europe/7555858.stm

Egorka
08-12-2008, 11:50 AM
That is good, I did not think of the oil and gas part of the problem. But why attack a little country that has no worth, or better yet no value. Yes the lives of people are important but their is no reason for the Russian higharcy to invade this little ( pardion my words ) shit hole an leave the world in aw of what they are doing.
And yes I can't spell very well. O.K
So basicaly, to put it short, you have no idea what and why is going on there but you already formed your opinion that Russia has done something bad.
Or I just misunderstood you?

Egorka
08-12-2008, 11:54 AM
Sorry, I don't speak Russian.
Nobody is perfect... :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t459NbF5Vek
Well active armour is not a panacea.

Nickdfresh
08-12-2008, 10:02 PM
Give it a week and they will have this pipeline.

So I take it as read is then that Georgia equally has the right to send its peacekeepers to Chechnya to punish Russian aggression, and expand into other parts of Caucasian Russia ? They do share a border, and I'm sure that there are at least a handful of Georgian nationals living there that need protection.


The speculations I've heard is that Russia doesn't want to dare attacking the pipeline and the resulting chaos of a Georgian occupation (the Russian markets dropped at the start of the offensive). But they may be trying to send a signal that a new natural gas pipeline ought not to be built through Georgia...

Nickdfresh
08-12-2008, 10:07 PM
True, but isn't the US being dangerously provocative towards Russia by training Georgia's military?

Why shouldn't a military have training? And the Russians/Soviets trained a good deal of the Georgian forces, and the Georgians still use mostly Russian sourced equipment. In fact, I thought they made the venerable SU-25 attack aircraft?


Plus wanting to put the missile shield in Poland?

Perhaps. But then isn't Russia helping Iran as they conduct nuclear research?


Kennedy didn't react too well to a somewhat similar, but rather different and more threatening act given the type of missile, when the Soviets put missiles into Cuba.

No nation likes being ringed by its potential enemy.

True. But the Georgian forces present little actual threat to Russia proper as their offensive showed. And some think the Russian gov't is mostly bitter because Georgia is one of the last areas that a pipeline can routed around, effectively avoiding Russia...

Nickdfresh
08-12-2008, 10:08 PM
...

Well active armour is not a panacea.


But it's still better than lazy, sedentary armour. ;)

Moreheaddriller
08-12-2008, 10:52 PM
The thing thats really scary is that this conflict is quite similar to something the soviets would do i mean it wouldnt suprise me to see the hammer and sickle again in the near future although highly unlikely its still a possiblity

Chevan
08-13-2008, 12:11 AM
Why shouldn't a military have training? And the Russians/Soviets trained a good deal of the Georgian forces, and the Georgians still use mostly Russian sourced equipment. In fact, I thought they made the venerable SU-25 attack aircraft?

Nick why do yu confuse my friend RS?
The most of new wearpon they use have been supplied after 2000.
Even their "old" Su-25 have been seriously modernized with Israeli electronics.
Other "russian " equipment like an Ukrainian AA system S-200, Chech T-72, American helicopters ( 90% all of helicopters of Georgia) and ets.


Perhaps. But then isn't Russia helping Iran as they conduct nuclear research?

Russia build a industrial reactor , not conducting a researchs.


True. But the Georgian forces present little actual threat to Russia proper as their offensive showed. And some think the Russian gov't is mostly bitter because Georgia is one of the last areas that a pipeline can routed around, effectively avoiding Russia...

You just repeat the Georgian propogandic shit.
Nobody even speak about pipeline. And nobody planned to attack it.
See at facts..
If someone just wished - the pipeline have been alredy damaged since the first day of conflict.

Rising Sun*
08-13-2008, 12:35 AM
Why shouldn't a military have training?

No reason at all, it's just that the source is provocative, in the same way that America would regard it as provocative if Russia was training Canadian or Mexican forces.



Perhaps. But then isn't Russia helping Iran as they conduct nuclear research?

Even if it is, it's rather different to the US training Georgia or Russia training Mexico situations as Iran isn't on America's border or in striking range of America.

Oddly enough, a future by-product of a worsening of the current situation could be Russia providing technology to Iran to give it the range to try to strike America, as a new form of proxy wars between Russia and America.

It's all to do with perceived threat and counter-threat, complicated by threats to extra-territorial interests.


True. But the Georgian forces present little actual threat to Russia proper as their offensive showed.

True. Which makes you wonder what particular madness possessed Georgia to start it up in the first place?


And some think the Russian gov't is mostly bitter because Georgia is one of the last areas that a pipeline can routed around, effectively avoiding Russia...

Not something I know anything about, but given the huge profits Russia has made from gas and oil to Western Europe it might well want to corner that market for itself, or at least exclude a new source of supply.

Egorka
08-13-2008, 02:56 AM
Since Afghanistan was mentioned few post previously I wish to share this piece of information.
The following is the English translation from the interview of Mr.Brzezinski to the French Le Nouvel Observateur (“Oui, la CIA est entrйe en Afghanistan avant les Russes...”, N° 1732 - 15/1/1998, Vincent Jauvert). ("Yes, CIA went to Afghanistan before Russians...")
The original article in French here: http://hebdo.nouvelobs.com/hebdo/parution/p1732/articles/a19460-.html

source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

Egorka
08-13-2008, 02:59 AM
The thing thats really scary is that this conflict is quite similar to something the soviets would do i mean it wouldnt suprise me to see the hammer and sickle again in the near future although highly unlikely its still a possiblityThe only difference between Iraq #2 war and Georgian war is that the later one actually has a realistic looking excuse to it.

Moreheaddriller
08-13-2008, 08:15 AM
touche my friend

koala
08-13-2008, 09:09 AM
I suppose the true reasons behind the conflict will eventually find its way to the general population. But in the mean time I would not jump into beleiving the jibberish coming from the USA and its allies cosidering their track record of providing honest and accurate information regarding some of the other recent and not so recent world events.

alephh
08-13-2008, 10:19 AM
Russian troops are heading towards Tbilisi!

Several different sources in Gori (AP reporters, ETYJ members, AFP staff) report that they have watched Russian convoys with battle tanks heading towards Tbilisi!

One Russian soldier even shouted "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi!" to a photographer. For sources, read reports from different news-agencies.


_

Egorka
08-13-2008, 11:55 AM
Russian troops are heading towards Tbilisi!

Several different sources in Gori (AP reporters, ETYJ members, AFP staff) report that they have watched Russian convoys with battle tanks heading towards Tbilisi!

One Russian soldier even shouted "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi!" to a photographer. For sources, read reports from different news-agencies.


_

16 APVs plus evacuated abandoned Geogian vehicles is not enough to attack Tbilisi. Besides they took a turn to Osetia.

Chevan
08-13-2008, 12:10 PM
One Russian soldier even shouted "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi!" to a photographer. For sources, read reports from different news-agencies.
_
Looks very improbable.
Besides why Euronews keep silence about the russian tanks march on Gori?

Chevan
08-13-2008, 12:13 PM
16 APVs plus evacuated abandoned Geogian vehicles is not enough to attack Tbilisi. Besides they took a turn to Osetia.

I heard they dont evacuate the cuptured Georgian vehicles- but simply destroy or blow up it .

Chevan
08-13-2008, 01:49 PM
Oh shit, the Russian columns are near the Gori:)
The Euronews reported it.
Alephh was almost right.
What are they doing here?i have no any idea.

alephh
08-13-2008, 03:06 PM
Looks very improbable.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1832291,00.html?xid=rss-topstories


Besides why Euronews keep silence about the russian tanks march on Gori?

Because it's a very slow-moving news-media.

"BBC reporter in Gori reported that Russians tanks were in the streets as their South Ossetian separatist allies seized Georgian cars, looted Georgian homes and then set some homes ablaze."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/georgia_russia;_ylt=Ahq.WgqWahIsCUpwnTZNXqes0NUE

"A column of 70 Russian military vehicles, including military trucks with anti-aircraft guns and artillery, as well as armoured personnel carriers, pursued by a large contingent of the world's media, left Gori on the road to Tbilisi and turned left a few kilometres outside of the frontline Georgian town." [includes a photo of Russian convoy heading from Gori to the directon of Tbilisi]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2552133/Russian-military-advances-into-Georgia-in-defiance-of-EU-peace-deal.html

"Separatist fighters and Russian troops looted and set homes ablaze in Georgia... Hundreds of South Ossetian rebels with some Russian army personnel went house-to-house in villages near Gori. They torched houses and looted buildings, witnesses said..."
+
"Human Rights Watch said its researchers in South Ossetia had witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians."
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jNBg25n8qYjQyiQ-osgnmBJH6xSQ

"In the port of Poti on the Black Sea on August 13, the Russian military blew up three coastguard ships belonging to the Georgian border department in the full view of journalists. A ship given to the department by the Bulgarian government was also destroyed. The day before, several Gerogian vessels had been sunk out at sea."
http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=346145&apc_state=henh

"Bush is ordering his country's military forces to Georgia to begin a "humanitarian mission to the people of Georgia". American aircraft and naval forces will be deployed... A C-17 aircraft, spearheading the effort and carrying humanitarian supplies, is currently on its way."
http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/fiction/international-affairs/russian-tanks-breach-georgia-ceasefire-$1236187.htm





_

Chevan
08-13-2008, 03:34 PM
(TBILISI, Georgia) — A Russian military convoy thrust deep into Georgia on Wednesday and Georgian officials said Russian troops bombed and looted the crossroads city of Gori, violating a freshly brokered truce intended to end the conflict

Is the "Georgian officials" a reliable source?
[quote]
Because it's a very slow-moving news-media.

They are just European retards media..
You right the CNN/BBS is more quick and operate


"BBC reporter in Gori reported that Russians tanks were in the streets as their South Ossetian separatist allies seized Georgian cars, looted Georgian homes and then set some homes ablaze."

"Ossetians separatists" sounds cool
I think the proud Osetians freedom fighters, who come to kick Georgian *** after the Genocide in Tshinvali is not bad too;)


"A column of 70 Russian military vehicles, including military trucks with anti-aircraft guns and artillery, as well as armoured personnel carriers, pursued by a large contingent of the world's media, left Gori on the road to Tbilisi and turned left a few kilometres outside of the frontline Georgian town." [includes a photo of Russian convoy heading from Gori to the directon of Tbilisi]

The armored personel carriers , pursued by a large of the world's media sounds really good.
Somebody said that Russian army forbid the World mass media to be here:)
But as we see they Journalist already "travels" together with Army.Good news.


"Separatist fighters and Russian troops looted and set homes ablaze in Georgia... Hundreds of South Ossetian rebels with some Russian army personnel went house-to-house in villages near Gori. They torched houses and looted buildings, witnesses said..."

Yea the S. Osetian rebels are actualy danger boys:)
Well nobody promised the GEorgians that Osetians will love them after all atrocities that they have commited couple days ago.

"Human Rights Watch said its researchers in South Ossetia had witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians."

i have a question- where were this f..ng Human Rights Watch when Georgians commited Ethnical terror in Tshinvali?
May be the Human Rights Watch are the bunch of Racists who take in consideration only the rights of GEorgians.
Very strange selective approach.


"In the port of Poti on the Black Sea on August 13, the Russian military blew up three coastguard ships belonging to the Georgian border department in the full view of journalists. A ship given to the department by the Bulgarian government was also destroyed. The day before, several Gerogian vessels had been sunk out at sea."

Oh damn the Last georgian warship have been sunked
Don't worry the American would have presented them new few soon.Absolutly free, Becouse the state-bankrupt has NO money except the Amerian credits:)


"Bush is ordering his country's military forces to Georgia to begin a "humanitarian mission to the people of Georgia". American aircraft and naval forces will be deployed... A C-17 aircraft, spearheading the effort and carrying humanitarian supplies, is currently on its way."

Well i just hope they were not mean Wearponry supplies as a "humanitarian mission"

Chevan
08-13-2008, 03:37 PM
All this is not good indeed.
Nobody wish the war to be continied.

Semper Fi
08-13-2008, 07:28 PM
So basicaly, to put it short, you have no idea what and why is going on there but you already formed your opinion that Russia has done something bad.
Or I just misunderstood you?

No you misunderstood me I was just saying that maybe it could be more then Oil. It could be about land. I know the oil is in their , but We have no idea what they are after. I don't think in russian, and I don't know what they are thinking, And maybe It could be all that I have said. And everything everyone else has said. So If you still think Im am forming a false idea about the Russian's please help me but That is my Idea on the Georgian crisis.

Sergej
08-13-2008, 08:21 PM
http://www.caglecartoons.com/images/preview/%7B918bb6cd-b61d-42b4-9ff1-c33aa94c173e%7D.gif

alephh
08-14-2008, 02:39 AM
(TBILISI, Georgia) — Georgian officials said Russian troops bombed and looted the crossroads city of Gori, violating a freshly brokered truce intended to end the conflict
Is the "Georgian officials" a reliable source?

No, but all the british, finnish, american, french, etc (reporters, etyj-people, citizens-in-area) are, especially when enough of them report the same thing.


i have a question- where were this f..ng Human Rights Watch when Georgians commited Ethnical terror in Tshinvali?

That's the trouble with the things you see in Russian news: Even if you're on the very spot, on the very moment - you often just don't see anything happening that Russian mass media is claiming.

For example, when the Estonians, with upmost respect and care, relocated the bronze statue (the fact one could see with own eyes, or watch it from footages) - at the same time Russian news claimed it's being destroyed.

Or when news-channels and Internet is full of photos and live-footage of Russian planes dropping bombs inside Georgia, what's the point, even 24 hours later, try to deny that Russian planes are not dropping bombs inside Georia in Russian mass media.

When troubles start, it would be so great, just once a century, to see Russian news media report something that somebody else of the 6.6 billion population could also see with their own eyes.

Everyone who sees something with their own eyes while the Russian media claims the exact opposite, time after time, will lose their faith in Russian media completely over the years. That's the issue. It's not about what you read on Internet, it's about personally seeing that Russian claims are bogus. I feel sorry for people who try to understand what's happening in the world by watching/reading Russian news.

Of course each side actively in war/conflict try to "report down" their own losses, push their own view, etc. But making up stuff to create more hatred in the years to come seems pretty criminal to me.

And I'm not saying that Georgia is completely innocent in this conflict. I do understand that they want to take full control of their own county - the very same way Russia wanted to take full control of their own county in the case of chechen. But I do not appreciate Georgian officials making claims that are without evidence (or at least seem to be at this point), like that Russians are setting up concentration camps as they march on - those kind of statements just "live on" and make the future much more difficult and hate-filled.


_

Chevan
08-14-2008, 03:25 AM
No, but all the british, finnish, american, french, etc (reporters, etyj-people, citizens-in-area) are, especially when enough of them report the same thing.

Yea
But all of the "british, finnish, american, french, etc" were reporting ONLY from Georgia:)
With sanction of GEorgian officials.


That's the trouble with the things you see in Russian news: Even if you're on the very spot, on the very moment - you often just don't see anything happening that Russian mass media is claiming.

I have no ttrouble with the Russian news, becouse i watch the Euronews and CNN/BBS also.
So i can get the MORE OR LESS objective view on what is going on there.
i admit the russian News are not always objective, but the CNN absolutly biased also pretty clear fro me.


For example, when the Estonians, with upmost respect and care, relocated the bronze statue (the fact one could see with own eyes, or watch it from footages) - at the same time Russian news claimed it's being destroyed.

No Russian news just told - thay were going to dismating the monument to replace it to other place.
BTW i do many russian well do understand the Estonians , and i personaly.
So there is nothing wrong.
I know the Russian mass media used it as political show, but such things do alsmost every state.


Or when news-channels and Internet is full of photos and live-footage of Russian planes dropping bombs inside Georgia, what's the point, even 24 hours later, try to deny that Russian planes are not dropping bombs inside Georia in Russian mass media.

dropping bombs on the military object of GEorgialike airfield, bases and est- this is bit other thing.And nobody deny it .
I know it from most beginning, and told about it honestly.
You can't break the Agressor while he use their Army to shot at our soldiers.
And in Tshinvali has bee fully crushed - is the YOUR NTERNET full of the photos of destroyed Osetian city?
No?
So maybe you use the biased part of Internet?


When troubles start, it would be so great, just once a century, to see Russian news media report something that somebody else of the 6.6 billion population could also see with their own eyes.

Well i don't know how many of 6,6 bln World population really believe to the CNN/BBS.
But something promts me, that the 1,5 of CHineses and about the 1,5 bln of Arads do not really get the CNN as a "reliable source" ( especially when the CNN give its oppinion about Arab-Israeli conflicts:))
SO as you can see the world population indeed have the pretty different concepts about true, somethimes very differ from what you usialy see on your TV:)



Everyone who sees something with their own eyes while the Russian media claims the exact opposite, time after time, will lose their faith in Russian media completely over the years. That's the issue. It's not about what you read on Internet, it's about personally seeing that Russian claims are bogus. I feel sorry for people who try to understand what's happening in the world by watching/reading Russian news.

Don't need to sorry.
Just keep in mind ONE simple thing - NOTHING can be 100% true, even what you geting from your TV and Internet.
Just use it and you can more easy understand the events.
I don't watch ONLY TV and as i said not ONLY Russian TV.
But the Political point is pretty clear for me. I hope a bit later we should learn the true about hostilities.


Of course each side actively in war/conflict try to "report down" their own losses, push their own view, etc. But making up stuff to create more hatred in the years to come seems pretty criminal to me.

What do you call the making up staff?


And I'm not saying that Georgia is completely innocent in this conflict. I do understand that they want to take full control of their own county - the very same way Russia wanted to take full control of their own county in the case of chechen. But I do not appreciate Georgian officials making claims that are without evidence (or at least seem to be at this point), like that Russians are setting up concentration camps as they march on - those kind of statements just "live on" and make the future much more difficult and hate-filled.

OK , right point.
But you still believe them about "unfair bombing of Georgian cities and attempts to cupture WHOLE Georgia"?
This is also part of propogand informational war agains Osetians and Russia.
So as i said - we probaly would know all the true just LATER.
After when the special comissions have investigate all the crimes- ONLY then we would have probably learned the true.
But not now, taking the GEorgian news as a "source".

alephh
08-14-2008, 05:12 AM
Yea
But all of the "british, finnish, american, french, etc" were reporting ONLY from Georgia:)


On what planet do you live on, man?

Here is just a small list of western reporters in South-Ossetia, in Georgia, and in Russia:
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=41903&c=1


I know the Russian mass media used it as political show, but such things do alsmost every state.

So can you point me to 10 news items in CNN that are made up, that have no reality behind them at all? I'm having extremely trouble finding even one. But it's easy to do from Russian news.


dropping bombs on the military object of GEorgialike airfield, bases and est- this is bit other thing.And nobody deny it.

So why are all the repoters taking pictures of civilians houses bombed down? Why are two western reporters dead after being in civilian building in Gori? Why did Russian artillery bomb Gori after Georgian troops left it?


And in Tshinvali has bee fully crushed - is the YOUR NTERNET full of the photos of destroyed Osetian city?

Part of the Tshinvali was destroyed when Georgian troops secured their motherland, and stopped separatist-terrorists shooting innocent people (as any country would have done). Part of the Tshinvali was destroyed when Russian troops attacked over the borders of the independent Georgia (those borders are acknowledged by Russia) and attacked the city.


especially when the CNN give its oppinion about Arab-Israeli conflicts :))

You're absolutely right :-D

Many countries have their "blind spots". And while CNN may not be making up stuff, they sure annoy the heck out of me with their extremely selective news reporting about Middle East issues :-/


SO as you can see the [b]world population indeed have the pretty different concepts about true, somethimes very differ from what you usialy see on your TV

That's correct - that's why I'm so worried when Dutch, Finnish, French, American, British, Arab, German, etc reporters who are located in South-Ossetia all report that Russians and Ossetians are looting places, killing civilians.

I do not see Dutch, Finnish, French, American, British, Arab, German, etc reporters who are located in South-Ossetia all report that Georgians are looting places, killing civilians.

Of course, areas/cultures like Russia/China are poorly understood, of course there are lot of differences. In some cultures looking directly in the eyes is insult, in other cultures it's polite. But killing a person is killing a person.

But if you take Russian media, British media, Arab media... and compare them, then you see that Russian media almost exclusively reports information from Russian sources. But British and Arab media are reporting claims by Russians, by Georgians, and by more-or-less independent reporters.



What do you call the making up staff?

I call "making up stuff that's untrue" a criminal activity. Especially if you're a powerful leader in the world.


But you still believe them about "unfair bombing of Georgian cities and attempts to cupture WHOLE Georgia"?

I think Russia unfairly bombed Georgian cities.

Why were the Russian convoys so relentlessly advancing towards Tbilisi? Because at some point they were ordered to advance to Tbilisi. If Russia was not capturing whole Georgia, why were the troops ordered to advance towards Tbilisi? If Russia was just seizing South-Ossetia, surely there were no need to head to Tbilisi with large convoys, no need to go outside South-Ossetia, at least that much.

So, there seem to be some credibility to the claim that Russia was capturing the whole Georgia - at one point in time.


But not now, taking the GEorgian news as a "source".

Georgia sucks as a news source, but Dutch, Finnish, French, American, British, Arab, German, etc reporters who are located in South-Ossetia (some of them more friendly towards Russia than America) are not seeing major offenses by Georgians, but they are seeing and hearing of lot of offenses by Russians and Ossetians.


Georgians in the tiny village of Dvani awoke Wednesday to the sound of doors being battered down. When they looked outside, Russian-backed soldiers from the separatist enclave of South Ossetia were pillaging the village, home by home. From the local school, they hauled away computers, from the grocery store, virtually everything. En masse, villagers fled... A few minutes later, when Merab Merakishvili looked back toward Dvani, he saw his village engulfed in flames. "I was at my neighbor's house and looked out the window and saw a soldier breaking into my house They were shouting and screaming, so I ran," Merakishvili said.
+
Villagers reported that South Ossetian separatist soldiers, at times accompanied by fighters from Russia's North Caucasus region, have looted homes and set them ablaze in Dvani, Tamarasheni and Shindisi.
+
Dzhoni Patriashvili, 37, said the separatist militia fighters came in two trucks into Dvani. One man was gunned down when he looked out his window... Patriashvili said, adding that he barely escaped being gunned down himself. "I was walking through the village, and the Russians who occupy a church up on a nearby hill saw me and began shooting at me. I crawled down a ridge, saw the trucks coming and decided it was time to escape."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-georgia_village_rod.aug14,0,5606654.story


Gori's day started with rumours of an imminent Russian arrival... We were filming at an apartment block when we heard the first shouts that the Russians were here. Then came the slow, steady rumble of the heavy vehicles, and just beyond the trees, we saw them. Packing up our gear we headed for the edge of town. Then from other nearby villages, others started to arrive where we had gathered. They told stories of masked men with guns stealing cars and valuables.
+
Mariam Shulbatshvili was gasping for breath when she showed up. She had come from the village of Karaleti but as she and her family were driving out they were waved down and ordered to stop. "Men with guns stopped us and told us out to get out of the car. We offered them money but they said they wanted the car. We were very frightened. We lost everything, our documents. Money, everything."
+
A group of six women were distressed and angry. They told us they had heard from relatives in the villages of Mejvriskhevi and Karaleti, and were rounding up the men and older boys. "Khazacs and Ossetians in uniform are coming into the village, putting sacks over the heads of our men and slitting their throats. They're taking everyone men, women and children. They're dragging the attractive women away."
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/20088146530258390.html

That's is what I have been hearing/reading from the reporters in South-Ossetia...




_

Nickdfresh
08-14-2008, 09:43 AM
No reason at all, it's just that the source is provocative, in the same way that America would regard it as provocative if Russia was training Canadian or Mexican forces.


Or if Indonesia was providing arms and training to a faction that wanted autonomy inside Northwestern Australia?

And I wish someone WOULD better train the Mexican forces in their battle against drug cartels...


Even if it is, it's rather different to the US training Georgia or Russia training Mexico situations as Iran isn't on America's border or in striking range of America.

Oddly enough, a future by-product of a worsening of the current situation could be Russia providing technology to Iran to give it the range to try to strike America, as a new form of proxy wars between Russia and America.

Yes, but Iranians have probably killed US troops in Iraq, even if they were renegade factions not directly under gov't control...


It's all to do with perceived threat and counter-threat, complicated by threats to extra-territorial interests.

There's very little threat coming from the US, as the gov't has spouted little more than rhetoric, and there is no doubt that the Georgian offensive/counterattack (or whatever it was) was not sanctioned...



True. Which makes you wonder what particular madness possessed Georgia to start it up in the first place?

One of the things that is also not reported in "Western" medium is that the Ossetian separatists were in a recurring game of provoking the Georgians with indiscriminate firing...


Not something I know anything about, but given the huge profits Russia has made from gas and oil to Western Europe it might well want to corner that market for itself, or at least exclude a new source of supply.

Perhaps.

Nickdfresh
08-14-2008, 09:49 AM
Nick why do yu confuse my friend RS?
The most of new wearpon they use have been supplied after 2000.
Even their "old" Su-25 have been seriously modernized with Israeli electronics.
Other "russian " equipment like an Ukrainian AA system S-200, Chech T-72, American helicopters ( 90% all of helicopters of Georgia) and ets.

So, basically they use American choppers and flashlights? I've yet to see one US sourced piece of equipment...


Russia build a industrial reactor , not conducting a researchs.

For a tidy profit.

BTW, what is the valiant Russian gov't --that supports indigenous groups rights against their territorial occupiers-- doing supporting the Khartoum regime in the Sudan as they conduct what is a "genocide" against the Dharfur region...


You just repeat the Georgian propogandic shit.

And you repeat the Russian official line of propagandist shit...

It was a US journalist's speculation on NPR actually. (Hardly the domain of the Bush admin)...


Nobody even speak about pipeline. And nobody planned to attack it.
See at facts..
If someone just wished - the pipeline have been alredy damaged since the first day of conflict.

Actually it has been bombed, and missed. But is heavily defended with those S300s you speak of?

Nickdfresh
08-14-2008, 09:53 AM
Since Afghanistan was mentioned few post previously I wish to share this piece of information.
The following is the English translation from the interview of Mr.Brzezinski to the French Le Nouvel Observateur (“Oui, la CIA est entrйe en Afghanistan avant les Russes...”, N° 1732 - 15/1/1998, Vincent Jauvert). ("Yes, CIA went to Afghanistan before Russians...")
The original article in French here: http://hebdo.nouvelobs.com/hebdo/parution/p1732/articles/a19460-.html


What does this have to do with anything?

And the Soviet KGB as well as the GRU and "military advisers" were in Afghanistan all along...

Rising Sun*
08-14-2008, 10:28 AM
Or if Indonesia was providing arms and training to a faction that wanted autonomy inside Northwestern Australia?

Pretty much what happened with East Timor, where Australia distinguished itself by allowing the Indonesian invasion in 1975 (which is the only time I wanted 150% to join up to fight the good fight, which Australia was too cunning to have). Australia stood by for a couple of decades afterwards while Indonesia ran amok there, largely because it suited us to have semi-fascists there rather than possible communists or other people with untidy ideas. Until we were more or less forced to go in because of popular pressure by right thinking people here, unfortunately assisted by our reluctant zombie Prime Minister who FUBAPB in dealing with Indonesia and bloody near got us into a war, which would have delighted some US arms suppliers to both sides as they could see how their equipment worked in action, with better (but not US standard) specs allowed on Australian planes than Indonesian ones.

Difference between Georgia or Canada / Mexico is that we trained Indonesian troops up to the point of war in 1975, and afterwards.

Wasn't (isn't) it a brilliant idea to train our most likely enemy so it undestands all our tactics, commands, signals, weapons, equipment, etc up to battalion level, even brigade level (we could have done divisional level, if we had a division :( ), when we don't learn anything about theirs?


And I wish someone WOULD better train the Mexican forces in their battle against drug cartels...

Would better training overcome corruption?


Yes, but Iranians have probably killed US troops in Iraq, even if they were renegade factions not directly under gov't control...

So?

Pakistanis have been ****ing your and my troops over in Afghanistan from day one, but they're still our valued allies, despite harbouring bin Laden sympathisers and very probably bin Laden himself with the knowledge of the ISI or other elements of power in Pakistan.


There's very little threat coming from the US, as the gov't has spouted little more than rhetoric, and there is no doubt that the Georgian offensive/counterattack (or whatever it was) was not sanctioned...

I'll hold fire on that.

Last I heard was about sixteen hours ago, which was that America was flying in troops and aid to Georgia for humanitarian relief. Sounds like another provocation to Russia by the US to support Georgia, even if it's not intended to be by the US. Or maybe it is intended to be, because in the end that whole exercise is just an international pissing contest.

Egorka
08-14-2008, 10:50 AM
What does this have to do with anything?
You mentioned Afghanistan and shared recently read material on it... that is it.

And the Soviet KGB as well as the GRU and "military advisers" were in Afghanistan all along...Of course they were. But again you forget that Afghanistan is not USA's underbelly but Soviet's. Just like Georgia is Russia's underbelly now. Rising Sun has mentioned it already.
The last time USSR set-up rockets in USA's underbelly there was a lot of complaints. So it is not as streight forward as it seems.

Egorka
08-14-2008, 11:12 AM
When a commercial break comes unexpectadly like a thief in the night... :)

Fox News video:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ&eurl=http://lj-toys.com/?journalid=13799855&moduleid=11&preview=&auth_token=sessionless:1218726000:embedcontent

Nickdfresh
08-14-2008, 11:23 AM
Pretty much what happened with East Timor, where Australia distinguished itself by allowing the Indonesian invasion in 1975 (which is the only time I wanted 150% to join up to fight the good fight, which Australia was too cunning to have). Australia stood by for a couple of decades afterwards while Indonesia ran amok there, largely because it suited us to have semi-fascists there rather than possible communists or other people with untidy ideas. Until we were more or less forced to go in because of popular pressure by right thinking people here, unfortunately assisted by our reluctant zombie Prime Minister who FUBAPB in dealing with Indonesia and bloody near got us into a war, which would have delighted some US arms suppliers to both sides as they could see how their equipment worked in action, with better (but not US standard) specs allowed on Australian planes than Indonesian ones.

Difference between Georgia or Canada / Mexico is that we trained Indonesian troops up to the point of war in 1975, and afterwards.

Wasn't (isn't) it a brilliant idea to train our most likely enemy so it undestands all our tactics, commands, signals, weapons, equipment, etc up to battalion level, even brigade level (we could have done divisional level, if we had a division :( ), when we don't learn anything about theirs?


From what I've heard of Indonesian forces, I doubt you've too much to worry about. I guess they don't do so well against those that can really shoot back...

But yes, Indonesia was another Cold War moral abyss where both Australia and the US turned a blind eye to what were some pretty awful *****s...


Would better training overcome corruption?

Maybe not, but actually, it's the Mexican Army that might just be the least corruptible. They seem to be genuinely prosecuting a "War on Drugs." Unfortunately it seems to be a bit of a dirty war and they are either extremely locally popular in the face of rampant Mexican police corruption, or are brutal and alienate the local populace. But a Mexican General was recently sacked because he called out the entire Mexican political systems enabling of drug cartels and lack of action.


So?

Pakistanis have been ****ing your and my troops over in Afghanistan from day one, but they're still our valued allies, despite harbouring bin Laden sympathisers and very probably bin Laden himself with the knowledge of the ISI or other elements of power in Pakistan.

Yes, well the Iranians have also killed a lot of Iraqis with some of their "Quds" forces supporting Iraqi gov't (militia) death squads and are generally not the most reliable of sorts. But I realize that it is also a very complex situation as US (special?) forces are also supporting anti-Iranian gov't elements...


I'll hold fire on that.

Last I heard was about sixteen hours ago, which was that America was flying in troops and aid to Georgia for humanitarian relief. Sounds like another provocation to Russia by the US to support Georgia, even if it's not intended to be by the US. Or maybe it is intended to be, because in the end that whole exercise is just an international pissing contest.

If humanitarian aid is a provocation, then so be it. But US forces also delivered Tsunami relief among other recent historical disasters...But yes, it is meant to ratchet up pressure on the Russians...

In any case, the Ossetians and Georgians have historically exchanged fire in August...

Nickdfresh
08-14-2008, 11:26 AM
You mentioned Afghanistan and shared recently read material on it... that is it.

Actually, Chevan mentioned it first...


Of course they were. But again you forget that Afghanistan is not USA's underbelly but Soviet's. Just like Georgia is Russia's underbelly now. Rising Sun has mentioned it already.
The last time USSR set-up rockets in USA's underbelly there was a lot of complaints. So it is not as streight forward as it seems.

Underbelly or not, they are an autonomous country. And the US also has never invaded Cuba unless you consider the Bay of Pigs debacle an invasion...

There are no real rockets in Georgia bigger than Katyusha ones, otherwise they would have been used. The main reason is that the Russian gov't doesn't like the Georgians working with the West...

Rising Sun*
08-14-2008, 11:38 AM
From what I've heard of Indonesian forces, I doubt you've too much to worry about. I guess they don't do so well against those that can really shoot back...

They outnumber us about ten to one.

Give every one of them a broomstick and they should be able to beat us into submission.

Their good forces are fairly good, but generally not up to the best standards of special forces in the West. On the other hand, they have a lot of them.

Their biggest problems are a lack of unified arms (in the sense of weapons, not corps), logistics, and command, which deprives them of the ability to sustain a long war with anyone. Plus sea transport problems which limits their capacity for long term war beyond their islands. I hope.

Egorka
08-14-2008, 12:31 PM
Underbelly or not, they are an autonomous country. And the US also has never invaded Cuba unless you consider the Bay of Pigs debacle an invasion...That is right Gerogia is autonomus country.
An autonomus country with two break away regions. The conflicts were raging there since colaps of USSR and by far not only because of Russian stir up. The antipaty between Gerogians and Abhazians and Osetians has ows routes. So Georgia in modern times - since 1992 - always had these issues. And as some people argue it is a bit open question if unified Georgia has really been existing since 1992 until today. That is one thing.

Specificly the South Osetian issue has an extra dimention to it: the North Osetia is in Russia. Which means that this was has also internal Russian reason to it - Russias central goverment had to assist South Osetian or rist loosing the main ally of the Federal Goverment in Caucasus.



There are no real rockets in Georgia bigger than Katyusha ones, otherwise they would have been used. The main reason is that the Russian gov't doesn't like the Georgians working with the West...Of course they do not. Just like US goverment does not like Cuba.

Chevan
08-14-2008, 02:58 PM
The main reason is that the Russian gov't doesn't like the Georgians working with the West...
Not true.
You see all the states of former USSR today works and co-operats with West.
Kazahstan, Azerbaijan, Ukraine and est.
But no other state that almost officialy has declared anti-russian way OPENLY except Georgia.
This madman Saakashvily from most beginning has started to use the anti-russian demagogy, that of course is very irritating for all the russians.
Just think yourself - is the anti-american demagogy of Venesuela welcomed in USA?

Chevan
08-14-2008, 03:41 PM
So, basically they use American choppers and flashlights? I've yet to see one US sourced piece of equipment...

I would like to call it as NATO piece of exuipment


For a tidy profit.

But does the everything USA do in world is not for their profit?


BTW, what is the valiant Russian gov't --that supports indigenous groups rights against their territorial occupiers-- doing supporting the Khartoum regime in the Sudan as they conduct what is a "genocide" against the Dharfur region...

What do you mean?



And you repeat the Russian official line of propagandist shit...

may be , but why your propogandic shit is better than my one?:)


It was a US journalist's speculation on NPR actually. (Hardly the domain of the Bush admin)...

i heard Journalist "speculations", it seem they competite with each other - who can invent more loud and more sensless and cruel "scenario".
Some of them even predicted the start of WW3.
Tupical shit press speculation.
The Rising Sun know what i mean.


Actually it has been bombed, and missed. But is heavily defended with those S300s you speak of?
S-200 indeed, but you are wrong if think that it is TECHNICALLY POSSIBLE to cover all of the pipe with couple of S-200.
The "attack of oil pipe" was just a Georgian Propogandic "action", one of many , sensless , but West like to believe in it:)
This madman (Saakashvili) has PUBLICALLY declared - the Georgia is on the front line of fight with Russia
His slogans emotionaly are nearest to F.Kastro or Hitler speechs.
This is tupical little dirty Further, who is going to solve all their inner problem with "little victorious war". He is sick.
He openly try to involve the Israel and West into conflict..
I do understand the American methoods to support "our bastards", but Nick ,for god's sake, those bastard should not be ... an idiots at least:)
Sometimes you have to watch , whom are you going to support.

alephh
08-14-2008, 06:52 PM
Russian tanks continue to advance deeper into Georgia, as over 100 Russian armored vehicles is being amassed (2km away) against the second largest city Zugdidi (witnessed by Reuters staff photographer Umit Bektas).
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080814/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_zugdidi_dc_2;_ylt=Akuiuz4NL6yGm8dy Y0K1bI4wvGUD

Vakhtang Tavberidze, acting harbourmaster in the port of Poti, reported that Russian tanks and peacekeepers had arrived at the military port... "Yesterday they came to the commercial port, but today they only came to the military port. They took away some equipment. This is looting."
http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSLE126209

Russia's Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that Moscow no longer recognized Georgia's territorial sovereignty, suggesting the Kremlin was prepared to absorb Abkhazia and South Ossetia [very likely, since formal recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia would only encourage separatist movements inside Russia].
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g73K5XXw4SPQSbJ3cbA-WHPs4D7wD92I738G0

Dr Vasily Gorgadze, 52, worked as a surgeon in one of the hospitals in Gori:
"It's not true that the Georgians have destroyed Tskhinvali. Russian troops were stationed in Tskhinvali and from their base in the city have provoked the Georgian side over a long period. I work in Gori and there was hardly a day when there wasn't any shelling - virtually every day we had wounded delivered to our hospital - there was no end to Russia's provocation, all year round. So Georgia had no choice but to defend itself. I'm absolutely convinced that we can live together. If the Russians don't provoke the situation, Georgians, Ossetians and Abkhazians could live a normal life together."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7561801.stm







_

Nickdfresh
08-14-2008, 10:36 PM
That is right Gerogia is autonomus country.
An autonomus country with two break away regions. The conflicts were raging there since colaps of USSR and by far not only because of Russian stir up. The antipaty between Gerogians and Abhazians and Osetians has ows routes. So Georgia in modern times - since 1992 - always had these issues. And as some people argue it is a bit open question if unified Georgia has really been existing since 1992 until today. That is one thing.

Specificly the South Osetian issue has an extra dimention to it: the North Osetia is in Russia. Which means that this was has also internal Russian reason to it - Russias central goverment had to assist South Osetian or rist loosing the main ally of the Federal Goverment in Caucasus.


Of course they do not. Just like US goverment does not like Cuba.

We don't even notice Cuba anymore, and there were no tactical nuclear missiles placed in Georgia, ever...

Nickdfresh
08-14-2008, 10:37 PM
Not true.
You see all the states of former USSR today works and co-operats with West.
Kazahstan, Azerbaijan, Ukraine and est.
But no other state that almost officialy has declared anti-russian way OPENLY except Georgia.
This madman Saakashvily from most beginning has started to use the anti-russian demagogy, that of course is very irritating for all the russians.
Just think yourself - is the anti-american demagogy of Venesuela welcomed in USA?

Yeah, but we haven't invaded Venezuela yet...

Nickdfresh
08-14-2008, 10:57 PM
I would like to call it as NATO piece of exuipment

That looks a lot like Warsaw Pact equipment?


But does the everything USA do in world is not for their profit?

Well, what have we done that's profitable lately?


What do you mean?

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/njoroge_wachai/2008/08/russias_dangerous_hypocrisy.html



may be , but why your propogandic shit is better than my one?:)

I don't know. But some of the lunitic rhetoric coming from both sides there is pretty unsettling...


i heard Journalist "speculations", it seem they competite with each other - who can invent more loud and more sensless and cruel "scenario".
Some of them even predicted the start of WW3.
Tupical shit press speculation.
The Rising Sun know what i mean.

I think you should speak for yourself. No one has predicted WWIII, the US is doing nothing substantive, and it is the Russian gov't calling for a democratic leader to be overthrown...


S-200 indeed, but you are wrong if think that it is TECHNICALLY POSSIBLE to cover all of the pipe with couple of S-200.
The "attack of oil pipe" was just a Georgian Propogandic "action", one of many , sensless , but West like to believe in it:)

I haven't heard much about the Georgians on the pipeline to be honest...


This madman (Saakashvili) has PUBLICALLY declared - the Georgia is on the front line of fight with Russia
His slogans emotionaly are nearest to F.Kastro or Hitler speechs.
This is tupical little dirty Further, who is going to solve all their inner problem with "little victorious war". He is sick.

Um, his rhetoric, although bizarre but not in the way you think, is no more cryptic-fascist than the Russian foreign ministers strange pronouncements...


He openly try to involve the Israel and West into conflict..

LOL Really? When did he do that?


I do understand the American methoods to support "our bastards", but Nick ,for god's sake, those bastard should not be ... an idiots at least:)
Sometimes you have to watch , whom are you going to support.

They "supported" the Georgian gov't since the creation of the state and were not supporting him specifically. He was elected in 2003 I think.

Chevan
08-15-2008, 02:12 AM
Yeah, but we haven't invaded Venezuela yet...

HAs Venezuela attacked and killed your soldiers?
Come on, we all pretty know what usially happend with whom is attacking the AMerica.
The Strategical bombings at least is guaranted for everybody.
Besides you have invided Panama already, although it did not attack you first.

redcoat
08-15-2008, 07:31 AM
Have to be honest, I'm less than impressed with the Georgian government over its handling of the crisis.
The decision by the Georgian government to send its armed forces into South Ossetia region, just after its had agreed a cease-fire with the separatists of the region, while Russian 'peace keeping' forces were present was reckless in the extreme.

The Russians were never going to allow a Georgian military attack on a region in which a majority of the population considers itself Russian to succeed.

Rising Sun*
08-15-2008, 08:42 AM
Have to be honest, I'm less than impressed with the Georgian government over its handling of the crisis.
The decision by the Georgian government to send its armed forces into South Ossetia region, just after its had agreed a cease-fire with the separatists of the region, while Russian 'peace keeping' forces were present was reckless in the extreme.

The Russians were never going to allow a Georgian military attack on a region in which a majority of the population considers itself Russian to succeed.

Exactly!

I can't fathom why the Georgian President, or leadership if it was a joint decision, started what they surely had to know was a fight they couldn't win.

Either the Georgian President / leadership are idiots (which I suspect Chevan is going to endorse ;) :D), or somebody else encouraged them to embark on this suicidal course.

I wouldn't put it past some clever **** American agency to have an oar in it, playing some devious game to advance their own interests.

Sergej
08-15-2008, 08:50 AM
Maybe Sakashvilli hoped Russians will destroy Georgia, and USA will rebuild his country
like Germany after WWII. And if he is a idiot, least he didn't try to invade Russia.

Man of Stoat
08-15-2008, 09:01 AM
Or maybe the Russians had the whole thing planned from the outset (how else would they have so many armoured assets and the accompanying logistics chain in position to move so quickly) and THEY were the ones who provoked the Georgians into it? It certainly passes the Occam's Razor test compared to the other hypotheses floating around.

redcoat
08-15-2008, 09:08 AM
Or maybe the Russians had the whole thing planned from the outset (how else would they have so many armoured assets and the accompanying logistics chain in position to move so quickly) and THEY were the ones who provoked the Georgians into it? It certainly passes the Occam's Razor test compared to the other hypotheses floating around.
I've no doubt the Russians were, after the build up in tension recently, prepared for such an event, but it was the Georgian governments own decision to launch an attack on South Ossetia, which lead to the Russian response.

Man of Stoat
08-15-2008, 09:19 AM
Sure, but is this not analogous to the school bully egging on his intended victim to throw the first punch, then decking him completely, and finally saying "but he started it?"

Rising Sun*
08-15-2008, 09:27 AM
Or maybe the Russians had the whole thing planned from the outset (how else would they have so many armoured assets and the accompanying logistics chain in position to move so quickly) and THEY were the ones who provoked the Georgians into it? It certainly passes the Occam's Razor test compared to the other hypotheses floating around.

Ockham's (as a long listener and reader of his, I follow Robyn William's spelling in his program and book title - http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ockhamsrazor/ ;) ) Razor is fine for theories in the sciences, but I think it's a bit hard to apply it to the Georgian situation as there are too many different influences and variables and unknowns.

I'd suggest that the better test for determining what motivated Georgia to act is: Cui bono? i.e Who benefits?

Not that that necessarily points to any one answer being more probable than the others.

As for Russian troop movements etc, that depends upon proximity to bases and Russian preparedness for exactly what happened, which is within the range of events for which competent military commanders prepare in such circumstances. Doesn't prove anything by itself.

Rising Sun*
08-15-2008, 09:29 AM
Sure, but is this not analogous to the school bully egging on his intended victim to throw the first punch, then decking him completely, and finally saying "but he started it?"

But where is the Russian egging on which provoked Georgia to attack at that precise moment?

Apart from Putin being away at the Olympics and maybe Georgia thinking it could somehow pull it off in his absence?

Man of Stoat
08-15-2008, 09:35 AM
Are there any Russian army bases within half an hour's tank drive from the border with South Ossetia? as I understand it, the time elapsed between the first Georgian rockets being fired and a Russian armoured column crossing the border was so short that it is even in doubt as to which happened first. The Georgians claim that they fired 10 minutes after the Russian column crossed the border, the Russians claimed that the Georgians fired first.

Either way, the Russians had to have massed their armoured assets ready for the off in advance, there is no way that such a response could be "scrambled". How long does it take to bomb up 100 plus tanks? (Or do the Russians keep their tanks and planes bombed up during peace time as a matter of course?)

Man of Stoat
08-15-2008, 09:38 AM
But where is the Russian egging on which provoked Georgia to attack at that precise moment?

Apart from Putin being away at the Olympics and maybe Georgia thinking it could somehow pull it off in his absence?

There are several ways that they could have egged them on using the South Ossetian separatists to provoke the response.

Rising Sun*
08-15-2008, 09:47 AM
Are there any Russian army bases within half an hour's tank drive from the border with South Ossetia? as I understand it, the time elapsed between the first Georgian rockets being fired and a Russian armoured column crossing the border was so short that it is even in doubt as to which happened first. The Georgians claim that they fired 10 minutes after the Russian column crossed the border, the Russians claimed that the Georgians fired first.

Which suggests that both sides were primed for action.

Maybe the Russians had backup for their peacekeepers for just such a situation. Or, as you imply, they were just lurking over the border and waiting for a chance to attack. After Georgia behaved as it did.

I'd be interested to know if Russian intelligence, whether local or satellite or whatever, about Georgian troop movements forewarned the Russians so that they were ready to roll. If so, that would suggest that Russia was responding to a reasonably apprehended threat rather than carrying out some long term plan to attack Georgia through South Ossetia.


Either way, the Russians had to have massed their armoured assets ready for the off in advance, there is no way that such a response could be "scrambled".

I think this would be right. Unless they had everything fuelled and loaded up with crews kitted up and ready to go, rather like Battle of Britain pilots.


Or do the Russians keep their tanks and planes bombed up during peace time as a matter of course?

I wouldn't be surprised.

I mean, you never know when Hungary or Czechoslovakia will need to be invaded by Russian tanks again, do you? ;)

Not unlike Georgia, it its own reduced modern way.

Rising Sun*
08-15-2008, 09:53 AM
There are several ways that they could have egged them on using the South Ossetian separatists to provoke the response.

Such as?

Was there some event by the SO's which provoked the response?

I'm afraid the reporting I've seen is long on images of the poor bastards hurt and killed and of burning tanks and refugees etc but short on facts, as distinct from allegations, about exactly how it started.

Man of Stoat
08-15-2008, 09:59 AM
Such as... fire on something, blow something up, and so on.

I'm not sure at the moment we can find out exactly what sparked it off, Given that we don't yet know whether the Georgians fired or the Russians crossed the border first.

Rising Sun*
08-15-2008, 10:12 AM
Such as... fire on something, blow something up, and so on.

Or maybe the Russians did it like the Nazis at Gleiwitz radio station in 1939?

Who knows?

And we know even less because of the controls on information and reporting in that part of the world, by both sides.


I'm not sure at the moment we can find out exactly what sparked it off, Given that we don't yet know whether the Georgians fired or the Russians crossed the border first.

Yeah, and both sides will proclaim their innocent victimhood to the last. Not unlike your bully example, in real life. Except I suspect, purely from its conduct in seeming to provoke the conflict, that Georgia evidences the signs of small man / fox terrier syndrome which results in it picking fights it has no chance of winning just because that's its nature.

Frankly, I think the worst thing about the whole exercise is that the poor bastards who have to endure it are facing worrying signs of a 1990s Yugoslavia type militia reprisal mentality among the Ossetians who threaten to run amok now that the Russian bear is growling behind them to allow them to revenge themselves upon the Georgians.

Nickdfresh
08-15-2008, 11:30 AM
Have to be honest, I'm less than impressed with the Georgian government over its handling of the crisis.
The decision by the Georgian government to send its armed forces into South Ossetia region, just after its had agreed a cease-fire with the separatists of the region, while Russian 'peace keeping' forces were present was reckless in the extreme.

The Russians were never going to allow a Georgian military attack on a region in which a majority of the population considers itself Russian to succeed.


I agree. In fact the Georgians negotiated a truce, then launched a massive artillery barrage...

Nickdfresh
08-15-2008, 11:33 AM
Or maybe the Russians had the whole thing planned from the outset (how else would they have so many armoured assets and the accompanying logistics chain in position to move so quickly) and THEY were the ones who provoked the Georgians into it? It certainly passes the Occam's Razor test compared to the other hypotheses floating around.


I also agree with this, though. The Ossetians were clearly opening fire on Ossetian forces and were armed and supported by the Russian gov't. If Russia is going to absorb S. Ossetia because it is populated mostly by "Russians," then they should withdraw from Chechnya...

Nickdfresh
08-15-2008, 11:35 AM
There are several ways that they could have egged them on using the South Ossetian separatists to provoke the response.

There have been firefights between the Georgian and Ossetian separatists nearly every August...

redcoat
08-15-2008, 03:27 PM
Sure, but is this not analogous to the school bully egging on his intended victim to throw the first punch, then decking him completely, and finally saying "but he started it?"
The tension has been building for a number of months. In July, in response to a number of incidents between the Georgian military and the Ossetians, Russia jets overflew the region to, in their words, "cool some heads".

Obviously, the Georgians failed to take the hint

Kovalski
08-15-2008, 03:29 PM
So tell Chevan, where are your tanks heading right now???

mike M.
08-15-2008, 04:55 PM
This didnt take long....

Russia: Poland risks attack because of US missiles By JIM HEINTZ, Associated Press Writer

A top Russian general said Friday that Poland's agreement to accept a U.S. missile interceptor base exposes the ex-communist nation to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons, the Interfax news agency reported.

The statement by Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn is the strongest threat that Russia has issued against the plans to put missile defense elements in former Soviet satellite nations.

Poland and the United States on Thursday signed a deal for Poland to accept a missile interceptor base as part of a system the United States says is aimed at blocking attacks by rogue nations. Moscow, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force.

"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike — 100 percent," Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying.

He added, in clear reference to the agreement, that Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." Nogovitsyn that would include elements of strategic deterrence systems, he said, according to Interfax.

At a news conference earlier Friday, Nogovitsyn had reiterated Russia's frequently stated warning that placing missile-defense elements in Poland and the Czech Republic would bring an unspecified military response. But his subsequent reported statement substantially stepped up a war of words.

U.S. officials have said the timing of the deal was not meant to antagonize Russian leaders at a time when relations already are strained over the recent fighting between Russia and Georgia over the separatist Georgian region of South Ossetia.

Russian forces went deep into Georgia in the fighting, raising wide concerns that Russia could be seeking to occupy parts of its small, pro-U.S. neighbor, which has vigorously lobbied to join NATO, or even to force its government to collapse.

Under the agreement that Warsaw and Washington reached Thursday, Poland will accept an American missile interceptor base.

"We have crossed the Rubicon," Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said, referring to U.S. consent to Poland's demands after more than 18 months of negotiations.

Washington says the planned system, which is not yet operational, is needed to protect the U.S. and Europe from possible attacks by missile-armed "rogue states" like Iran. The Kremlin, however, feels it is aimed at Russia's missile force and warns it will worsen tensions.

In an interview on Poland's news channel TVN24, Tusk said the United States agreed to help augment Poland's defenses with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defense interceptors in the Eastern European country.

He said the deal also includes a "mutual commitment" between the two nations to come to each other's assistance "in case of trouble."

That clause appeared to be a direct reference to Russia.

Poland has all along been guided by fears of a newly resurgent Russia, an anxiety that has intensified with Russia's offensive in Georgia. In past days, Polish leaders said that fighting justified Poland's demands that it get additional security guarantees from Washington in exchange for allowing the anti-missile base on its soil.

Semper Fi
08-15-2008, 11:19 PM
Well maybe it could be a both side start. Maybe both Georgia and Russia both fire the fires shots. Or maybe it is a ploy. But we don't know.

Does anyone know how fired on the Turkery reporters yet?

And if we do good to war with Russia will Germany and France help because they are depindent on Russian oil?

So will we even good to war. I hope not because well Iran is using Russian money to build their Nuclear reactor. and maybe train assasains to kill americans , Iraq troops.

So is what do you all think.

Nickdfresh
08-16-2008, 07:00 PM
....
Does anyone know how fired on the Turkery reporters yet?

...

You mean this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMdtupu_U3A

:shock:

Or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVyiNE_L_8U&NR=1 :mad:

Nickdfresh
08-16-2008, 07:05 PM
Russian air strike (using clusterbombs) into Gori, Georgia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9kca9JfwHg

Chevan
08-18-2008, 06:21 AM
Exactly!

I can't fathom why the Georgian President, or leadership if it was a joint decision, started what they surely had to know was a fight they couldn't win.

Either the Georgian President / leadership are idiots (which I suspect Chevan is going to endorse ;) :D), or somebody else encouraged them to embark on this suicidal course.

I wouldn't put it past some clever **** American agency to have an oar in it, playing some devious game to advance their own interests.

I sign under every your word mate:)
It seems we have one more "KGB recruited agent here" - dear mr redcoat:D
Nice surprise to me..
Seems there in west are the people who still able to see the situation objectively.
BTW did you watched the report of FOX news where the Osetian woman with daughter , accidentally said the true:)
She thank the Russian army for that they have saved the Osetians from a total Georgian genocide.
The commentator was so surprised ..
Russian Frist Channel has showed this report of FOX .

Chevan
08-18-2008, 06:24 AM
Russian air strike (using clusterbombs) into Gori, Georgia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9kca9JfwHg
Clusterbombs?
Where from do you know?
Thank to god they didn't used the White-Phosphorus bomb like Yankees in Faludjy 2004.

Nickdfresh
08-18-2008, 07:30 AM
Clusterbombs?
Where from do you know?
Thank to god they didn't used the White-Phosphorus bomb like Yankees in Faludjy 2004.


Or vacuum bombs like the Ruskies did in Chechnya...;)

Chevan
08-18-2008, 07:55 AM
Or vacuum bombs like the Ruskies did in Chechnya...;)

Or Napalm like the Yankees loved to use in Vietnam:)
If serious.
did you hear the Saakashvili publicaly declared in miting in Tbilisi the "total Victory over Russia":):D
He tanks the "Heroical Georgian army" that defeat the "Russian agressors".( inspite the fact that GEorgians have dropped all the wearpon and run away from Gori firs, befor the GEorgian police that also escaped , leaving the rest Georgian civil population without protection from local criminals)
We have much of fun here when see this madman during his "emotiona " speeches:)

Chevan
08-18-2008, 08:13 AM
Poland has all along been guided by fears of a newly resurgent Russia, an anxiety that has intensified with Russia's offensive in Georgia. In past days, Polish leaders said that fighting justified Poland's demands that it get additional security guarantees from Washington in exchange for allowing the anti-missile base on its soil.
And how the American Anti-missles can defend the Poland?
Now the Russian nuclear attack would be firstly on the POlish territory.The polish authorities simply tryed to involve the Europe in NEW wearpon-race.
Clear , it's not so hard to turn the part of Russian Nuclear missles to Poland and Chech , involving the Europe into the possible nuclear conflict with Russia or China.
Russia indeed don't even threat the Poland.Becouse Poland is already in Nato.
The US missles in Europe is just the egoistic american matter.
The question - is the Europe needs the NEw military race for Alien Washington ambitions?

Man of Stoat
08-18-2008, 08:45 AM
The above few posts aptly indicate the verity of the old adage:

Never underestimate the paranoia of the Rus

Chevan
08-18-2008, 01:42 PM
The above few posts aptly indicate the verity of the old adage:

Never underestimate the paranoia of the Rus
Oh really?
What Russians have made to you that you have devoted them entire adage?;)
Or is this just a common adage where you can insert any country name- USA, Germany and ets, depends on situation?
Kinda -never underestimate the paranoia of the Amers?
Is it very clever?:mrgreen:
What is a nation that invents such "genious" proverbs?

Semper Fi
08-18-2008, 02:09 PM
I think the American missile defince in poland is well a good idea and a bad one. ( how does that work.) It can now defind the American Allies and slap Moscow in the face. ( I hate Russia) But they have done some amazing things. But the Missile Defince is well a slap in the russians face. And it says now you can nuke us and we will be save because you missiles will never make it to us. Ha Ha Ha.But then with the russians and their every bad anger problems with try, But I Don't think with Nukes but with 1 millain running screaming russian Solders with their aks and other ak type weapons because every weapon in their arsual is takin from the Kalashnikov Automatic 1947

Chevan
08-18-2008, 02:31 PM
I think the American missile defince in poland is well a good idea and a bad one. ( how does that work.) It can now defind the American Allies and slap Moscow in the face. ( I hate Russia) But they have done some amazing things. But the Missile Defince is well a slap in the russians face. And it says now you can nuke us and we will be save because you missiles will never make it to us. Ha Ha Ha.But then with the russians and their every bad anger problems with try, But I Don't think with Nukes but with 1 millain running screaming russian Solders with their aks and other ak type weapons because every weapon in their arsual is takin from the Kalashnikov Automatic 1947

Oh shit, one more russian-hate person is here:(
SO much of them last time:(
So are you openly write that that american Anti-missles are DIRECTED PRIMARY AGAINS RUSSIA?
WHat will Nickdfresh say now?

Semper Fi
08-18-2008, 02:41 PM
Well I don't care what he thinks. And yes i do think it is DIRECTED PRIMARY AGAINS RUSSIA!!!! who else maybe Iran But I think mostly Russia. I hope that is not a problem!!!

Firefly
08-18-2008, 02:53 PM
I think the American missile defince in poland is well a good idea and a bad one. ( how does that work.) It can now defind the American Allies and slap Moscow in the face. ( I hate Russia) But they have done some amazing things. But the Missile Defince is well a slap in the russians face. And it says now you can nuke us and we will be save because you missiles will never make it to us. Ha Ha Ha.But then with the russians and their every bad anger problems with try, But I Don't think with Nukes but with 1 millain running screaming russian Solders with their aks and other ak type weapons because every weapon in their arsual is takin from the Kalashnikov Automatic 1947

Bloody hell, are you sure your American? Your language is atrocious. Please try a bit harder to make sense....

Sergej
08-18-2008, 02:56 PM
DIRECTED PRIMARY AGAINS RUSSIA!!!!
That's not the problem. It would much more effective to try shooting
Russian missiles with slingshots than use crapy patriot missiles.
The problem is:
( I hate Russia)

Semper Fi
08-18-2008, 03:17 PM
Ok people hate is a strong word. how is dislike, is that better. the Russians are just not who I can get a long with. So I will try to not say hate and Russia in the same sentince, after this. (Ok)

And for me to dislike the Russians, is as easy as waking up every morning.
It is in my Family to DISLIKE the RUSSIANS!!!!

I don't hate the people, just the actions that they take. And Im not saying that America is the holy land, because they have doobn wrong. But We don't always us Force to solve problems And Russia always helps anyone who hate the US. If a small country says Ohh we hate america Russia will throw Ak-47's at them. So Im sorry, I don't have the right to say I hate Russia but I will say Dislike for now on.

Firefly
08-18-2008, 06:43 PM
Ok people hate is a strong word. how is dislike, is that better. the Russians are just not who I can get a long with. So I will try to not say hate and Russia in the same sentince, after this. (Ok)

And for me to dislike the Russians, is as easy as waking up every morning.
It is in my Family to DISLIKE the RUSSIANS!!!!

I don't hate the people, just the actions that they take. And Im not saying that America is the holy land, because they have doobn wrong. But We don't always us Force to solve problems And Russia always helps anyone who hate the US. If a small country says Ohh we hate america Russia will throw Ak-47's at them. So Im sorry, I don't have the right to say I hate Russia but I will say Dislike for now on.

I have generally gotten along with anyone I met in the flesh, Americans, Russians, French, and yes even some English. Do you know or have met a Rusian? Also, seriously, if the one half of the world is using Russian weapons, isnt the other using US ones? Another thing to remember is that maybe the Russian weapons are better, maybe more reliable, maybe its just that they are cost effective? Who knows? Not you for sure.

So instead of automatically disliking something, find out about it, free your mind instead of narrowing it.

Nickdfresh
08-18-2008, 09:58 PM
Or Napalm like the Yankees loved to use in Vietnam:)
If serious.

So which is worse?

You seemed to think the Chechens deserve being suffocated but the beautiful Vietnamese were all victims of the American "Imperialist aggression."

I just wonder how you can be so critical at rolling out the same ultra-critical "Yankee bastards" cliche when ignoring the fact that your country is quite capable of carrying out ruthless wars using intentional targeting of civilians (several instances are documented in Chechnya) and using some rather nasty weapons in doing so.

It's like some odd form of preemptive propaganda...Like it's okay for Russians to target crowded markets in Grozny with SCUDs or using thermite "vacuum bombs" is somehow preferable to napalm or white phosphorus...

Are we really going to argue over nicer ways of killing people? Really?


did you hear the Saakashvili publicaly declared in miting in Tbilisi the "total Victory over Russia":):D
He tanks the "Heroical Georgian army" that defeat the "Russian agressors".( inspite the fact that GEorgians have dropped all the wearpon and run away from Gori firs, befor the GEorgian police that also escaped , leaving the rest Georgian civil population without protection from local criminals)

No I didn't. But obviously he's trying to "save face" and I doubt his troops had much choice but too run in the face of superior numbers and firepower. They retreated to defend their capital as anyone would...


We have much of fun here when see this madman during his "emotiona " speeches:)

Well, your foreign minister has also made some "mad" statements...


One example of an "emotional...mad" statement would be the continual silly accusation of "genocide" and the numbers game of "2000 killed" when Ossetian hospitals had only reported 44 deaths and less than 200 wounded...

No doubt more died than that, but some of the Russian statements of "throwing grenades into bomb shelters" and intentional targeting of Ossetian civilian areas are nothing but hyperbole...

Nickdfresh
08-18-2008, 10:05 PM
Oh shit, one more russian-hate person is here:(
SO much of them last time:(
So are you openly write that that american Anti-missles are DIRECTED PRIMARY AGAINS RUSSIA?
WHat will Nickdfresh say now?


I'd say he's clueless, and so is anyone thinking that 10 US ABM interceptors in any way pose a threat to Russian nuclear deterrence of hundreds of MIRVs. Especially when they are not in the direct route over the bearing straights.

The missiles are in the direct Iranian flight path to the West however...

Nickdfresh
08-18-2008, 10:09 PM
Well I don't care what he thinks. And yes i do think it is DIRECTED PRIMARY AGAINS RUSSIA!!!! who else maybe Iran But I think mostly Russia. I hope that is not a problem!!!

Really? Ten interceptors are going to stop hundreds of warheads on MIRVs?

Placing the missile defense is no doubt a thumb in the eyes of the Russians and the increased military ties between the US and Poland may be one of the consequences of the Russian offensive in Georgia...

But the missiles are too few and too poorly placed to be useful against hundreds if not thousands of nukes. Like throwing rocks at a swarm of locusts!

Chevan
08-19-2008, 02:46 AM
So which is worse?

True.
So why the clusters bombs shall be worse?


You seemed to think the Chechens deserve being suffocated but the beautiful Vietnamese were all victims of the American "Imperialist aggression."

I just wonder how you can be so critical at rolling out the same ultra-critical "Yankee bastards" cliche when ignoring the fact that your country is quite capable of carrying out ruthless wars using intentional targeting of civilians (several instances are documented in Chechnya) and using some rather nasty weapons in doing so.

I never thought neither Chechens deserved something, nor associate them with Vietnameses.
The problem in way of your thinking Nick.
You probably think that USA might make a mistakes, attacking everybody they want around the world.
Israel might attack the neighbourds as much as they wish.
And ONLY russian shall shut up when some bas...rds kills our peoples.
This is what we call DOUBLE -STANDARDS, very actual things in West, in relation not just to Russia but for China and otheres.
Just say honestly - you are simply irritated becouse the OTHER state tru to do , what America did a long time.
The Washington din't worry to much when Turks attaked Iraq, right?
As well Washington FULLY supported the recent agression of Isreal on Libanon, this is a FACT.
SO what to hell, thos cynical Americans politics try to blame russsia in "disproportionate answer" if we all know - after 9'11 the American answer was DAMN DISPROPORTIONAL.
And what, does somebody in Washington administration worry much about it?
Hardly.



Are we really going to argue over nicer ways of killing people? Really?

Of course not.
We are going to argue- if USA can bomb everyone they want- the Russia also has right to use the power, isn't it?


No I didn't. But obviously he's trying to "save face" and I doubt his troops had much choice but too run in the face of superior numbers and firepower. They retreated to defend their capital as anyone would...

So why he is saving face , using the danger military demagogy and obvious lie?
West try to ***** Russian mass media in non-objective views.
Do somebody in west ever notice what this idiot Saakashvily talk to their people?



Well, your foreign minister has also made some "mad" statements...


One example of an "emotional...mad" statement would be the continual silly accusation of "genocide" and the numbers game of "2000 killed" when Ossetian hospitals had only reported 44 deaths and less than 200 wounded...

That's true.
I doubt in figure 1600 of dead too, however you are wrong if think that ONLY perished in Hospitals 44 were confirmed.
I heard there were no lees then 500 dead.
Anyway this is in several TIMES less then died Georgians during so called "Russian unfiar bombing of Georgian cities".
BTW why then the Georgian madman start to repeat the silly word "genocide" in his speeches right after the russian ministry?
And how you can call the situation when GEorgian army round up the Osetians civils in one village in building and then fired it up?
Nazis commited the same with Jews during the ww2.


No doubt more died than that, but some of the Russian statements of "throwing grenades into bomb shelters" and intentional targeting of Ossetian civilian areas are nothing but hyperbole...

Oh you probably didn't hear the Osetians refugees.
They tells the terrible things.Just listen them.
But does the CNN show their intervievs?
I know for sure the Euronews showed the suffering Osetians , and believe me- they were no kidding, talking about genocide.

Chevan
08-19-2008, 03:08 AM
I'd say he's clueless, and so is anyone thinking that 10 US ABM interceptors in any way pose a threat to Russian nuclear deterrence of hundreds of MIRVs. Especially when they are not in the direct route over the bearing straights.

But are those 10 US ABM only the American interceptors in a world that shall meet the Russian "hundred"( indeed no more 50 will in service combat-ready in 2011) missles?
DO you wish to say that USA have no more interceptors over US territory?
No?
So from this prospect the additional 10 ABM is a REAL threat for Russian 50 missles that can be used as nuclear answer of first americna strike.Of course, Russian will have to direct the part of missles to attack the Poland and Chech in this way - therefore the Threat of Total Nuclear damage is decreasing down for AMerican continent.
But at the same time the Europe would be seriously damaged by the Russian missles.And this is not in their interests.
From this poin the Europe is getting the Hostage of the American policy- they should be attacked first
The right question - does the Europe need it, to be the American puppet, simply becouse the couple of american collaborationists ( Poland and Chech) want to get their personal profit from USA( money , wearpon and ets)
Is the Europe enough self-determined in their policy?
I doubt it.
Obviously the Europe is going to be "voluntary victims" of AMerican hegemony.
Are the Europeans so stupid to take the first nuclear strike on their territory for America?



The missiles are in the direct Iranian flight path to the West however...
So why this russian-hate idiot from "Paris island" think otherwise?

Semper Fi
08-19-2008, 03:32 AM
I have generally gotten along with anyone I met in the flesh, Americans, Russians, French, and yes even some English. Do you know or have met a Rusian? Also, seriously, if the one half of the world is using Russian weapons, isnt the other using US ones? Another thing to remember is that maybe the Russian weapons are better, maybe more reliable, maybe its just that they are cost effective? Who knows? Not you for sure.

So instead of automatically disliking something, find out about it, free your mind instead of narrowing it.

No I have not meet you and you are probably cool. but I have had Russians friends that desided to hate me for being German. And I realy have no problem with others just Few. I understand that saying That I hate Russians offinded you but Being called a Nazi for the better part of my life by both Russian, French,and many others, has made me a little pissy. So I am sorry that I upset you and such, and you are probable a cool person and someone I would hang out with, But being perdagice ( bad Speller ) is hard to get drop. I will try to with strane my self and be a little more knowing on what i say. And cost effective yes. better not always. Ak-47 a good weapon yes powerful 7.62x39mm is a hard hitting round but out of the Ak it is not accurate because of the way the front sight, and rear sight, they are to close if they were a little bit back it would beable to kill up to and past 800 yards. M16a2 Good weapon has distance and at close range the 5.56x49mm is a killer round. has a massive power loss when it comes to the Ak-47. but has the range to kill the one holding the Ak. Both have advantages and disadvantages. one has range the other has power. Ak-47's round go's right thew the body, but the m16 round when it hits the body tumbles and explodes. and does more damage. So I do know about Russian and American weapons every well and I have fired both weapons and weapons of world war II and you can ask me and I will tell to the best of my abilaty. So I do know. Now about the missiles I did not know the number of missiles. And I was reading that it was a big number. So I now can get a estimate of how many.

Rising Sun*
08-19-2008, 08:36 AM
So from this prospect the additional 10 ABM is a REAL threat for Russian 50 missles that can be used as nuclear answer of first americna strike.

I very much doubt there is any realistic prospect of an American first strike, despite recent idiotic belligerent comments by a Russian military leader about attacking Poland threatening to raise the stakes.

I don't think America is going to nuke Russia to preserve its anti-missile sites in Poland and thereby provoke a Russian strike on America. And Poland. We're a long, long way short of the Cold War tensions and even they didn't result in a nuclear strike, or any other strike.


The right question - does the Europe need it, to be the American puppet, simply becouse the couple of american collaborationists ( Poland and Chech) want to get their personal profit from USA( money , wearpon and ets)
Is the Europe enough self-determined in their policy?
I doubt it.
Obviously the Europe is going to be "voluntary victims" of AMerican hegemony.
Are the Europeans so stupid to take the first nuclear strike on their territory for America?

Well, at least this time Poland and Czechoslovakia get a choice, unlike post-war and Cold War periods when the Soviets made them Soviet puppets.

I can understand why you have your views because you're directly affected by these developments, and the same for some American members, but as someone who is completely outside the Russian - American contest I'd say each country is about as bad as the other in their own ways.

I suspect that a large part of the problem is that the current leaderships, and some of the people, in America and Russia are both carrying baggage from the Cold War, while the rest of the world has moved on and we don't want to see a return to super-power nuclear idiocy threatening the rest of us.

Anyway, the only looming nuclear attack risk at the moment is Pakistan since Musharraf resigned. If the Islamic zealots get into control there, the least of America's, and Russia's, and much of the rest of the world's, worries will be a few anti-missile missiles in Poland.

Rising Sun*
08-19-2008, 08:53 AM
We are going to argue- if USA can bomb everyone they want- the Russia also has right to use the power, isn't it?

Russians and Americans can argue that, but a lot of the rest of us would argue that it would be nice if they both abided by what passes for international law and common decency, so that they stopped flexing their bully boy muscles just because they can.

And stopped interfering in other countries, just because they can and to advance their own interests, without regard to the interests of the rest of the world. Or the poor bastards who have the misfortune to live in some of the countries they interfere in, from Vietnam and Chile to Iraq or Hungary and Czechoslokia to Georgia.

No country has clean hands when it comes to using its power against smaller countries to advance its interests, but America and Russia have dirtier hands than most.

Semper Fi
08-19-2008, 03:13 PM
Yes Russian and American hands are muddy and bloody. America was saving their interests, When we went into Vietnam, Russia was their to. Some As China, all of us were their. In Vietnam My dad shot a man that looked russian. And that is a clue that shows me that even Russia is everywere. Hell even China was in vietnam. Everybody was.

So yes Russians and Americans can argue that Russia can use force when ever they want, sam e as the US. But the way I feel, is that both countrys have some of the same interests. But That what makes us differnt is what makes us friends, But that what makes us the same is killing us. And yes Russia and the US are everywere. in every conflict and in every war, by some little part. AK-47s, M16's they are everywere. some people carry both. Hell why not. Both good fire arms. heel the Ak-47 is on a country's flag, because it help them with their Indepindince.with out knowing they changed the world and it's polacy. US is the good guy, Russia is the bad guy. This has been going on for the better part of 55 years. and It is time to start hating some one else. Because people or not they can flex their muscle. but Just a little less. let everyone breath a little. Being American does not give me the right to bash others for how i have been treated. The hole world is not like this. Even if it seems that way. Both Russia & the US needs to lower the ego and kiss and make up. this has been going on for over half a century. And it is geting a lot older the more I think about it. Russia helped with the stoping of The Mighty German army , and then we go to war that lasts 40 years. what the hell? I* love war, but wo in my life time is good three is ofer doing it.

Moreheaddriller
08-19-2008, 03:47 PM
You must be thinking of the Mozambique flag

http://www.newspapercountry.com/Mozambique.png

flamethrowerguy
08-19-2008, 03:52 PM
I* love war, but wo in my life time is good three is ofer doing it.

http://www.armymuseum.co.nz/education/images/Blake-web.JPG

Moreheaddriller
08-19-2008, 03:55 PM
Lmao:D i agree

Kovalski
08-19-2008, 08:22 PM
Well, at least this time Poland and Czechoslovakia get a choice, unlike post-war and Cold War periods when the Soviets made them Soviet puppets.



Jesus, kurwa, whatever :)
There is no Czechoslovakia any more!
Chech Republic and Slovakia are independent states since 1st of January 1993 ( for 15 years!!!)

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

Semper Fi
08-19-2008, 09:12 PM
You must be thinking of the Mozambique flag

http://www.newspapercountry.com/Mozambique.png

yes that is the one!

Rising Sun*
08-19-2008, 10:27 PM
Jesus, kurwa, whatever :)
There is no Czechoslovakia any more!

That's another thing to blame on the Soviets! :D


Chech Republic and Slovakia are independent states since 1st of January 1993 ( for 15 years!!!)

Well, I'm a long way away.

It takes a long time for news to reach us down here. :D

Nickdfresh
08-19-2008, 10:52 PM
But are those 10 US ABM only the American interceptors in a world that shall meet the Russian "hundred"( indeed no more 50 will in service combat-ready in 2011) missles?
DO you wish to say that USA have no more interceptors over US territory?
No?

I don't know. But the interceptors barely work against crude ballistic missiles from the likes of North Korea or Iran. I doubt they'd pose much of a threat to a Russian ICBM...or SLBM...


So from this prospect the additional 10 ABM is a REAL threat for Russian 50 missles that can be used as nuclear answer of first americna strike.Of course, Russian will have to direct the part of missles to attack the Poland and Chech in this way - therefore the Threat of Total Nuclear damage is decreasing down for AMerican continent.
But at the same time the Europe would be seriously damaged by the Russian missles.And this is not in their interests.
From this poin the Europe is getting the Hostage of the American policy- they should be attacked first

The Russians only have 50 missiles total? Why do I doubt this? And in anycase, the MIRV is a force multiplier that makes each missile into a dozen ones...


The right question - does the Europe need it, to be the American puppet, simply becouse the couple of american collaborationists ( Poland and Chech) want to get their personal profit from USA( money , wearpon and ets)
Is the Europe enough self-determined in their policy?
I doubt it.
Obviously the Europe is going to be "voluntary victims" of AMerican hegemony.
Are the Europeans so stupid to take the first nuclear strike on their territory for America?


So why this russian-hate idiot from "Paris island" think otherwise?

Um, Europe tends to agree with the US on many of these issues. They may well fear Russian "hegemony" or gas pipelines with shuttered valves more than the Americans across the pond......

And Semper Fi will have to speak for himself...

Nickdfresh
08-19-2008, 10:57 PM
http://www.armymuseum.co.nz/education/images/Blake-web.JPG

http://www.deanguitars.com/userpics/lib5/Get%20to%20the%20Choppa.JPG

Chevan
08-20-2008, 12:54 AM
Russians and Americans can argue that, but a lot of the rest of us would argue that it would be nice if they both abided by what passes for international law and common decency, so that they stopped flexing their bully boy muscles just because they can.

And stopped interfering in other countries, just because they can and to advance their own interests, without regard to the interests of the rest of the world. Or the poor bastards who have the misfortune to live in some of the countries they interfere in, from Vietnam and Chile to Iraq or Hungary and Czechoslokia to Georgia.

No country has clean hands when it comes to using its power against smaller countries to advance its interests, but America and Russia have dirtier hands than most.

This is true mate.
But other true is .......that the "rest of us" ( i mean Anglo-Saxs) supports the American intervention very actively.
You scold the Bush , but at the same time Australia supports the American adventure in Iraq.I bet also they will support the possible invasion into Iran.
And this is a reality that we can't ignore.Because inspite of "peace-loving demagogy" of mid 1990-y we have got a serious trouble - Nato is is coming much closer.
The rest west "portray the discussion" but FULLY depend on American military will. We might agrue - is it bad or well,but this is a FACT.

Rising Sun*
08-20-2008, 02:20 AM
You scold the Bush ,

Not as much as I loathe our last American lap dog Prime Minister and his 'suck up to America' government for getting us involved in that disaster.


but at the same time Australia supports the American adventure in Iraq.

Not since we got rid of our last American lap dog government.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/smith-defends-troop-withdrawal/2008/01/29/1201369081808.html


I bet also they will support the possible invasion into Iran.

No. Even the last government was against that. Unless there is some dramatic change in the Iran situation, that's the way it will stay.

P.S. For American members, my comments don't reflect any distate for Americans but purely disgust for our last government and its conservative predecessors who, in the misguided belief that it will earn us brownie points in case we need American diplomatic pressure or military help in future, blindly follow America into conflicts that have nothing to do with us and do us more harm than good.

Chevan
08-20-2008, 02:33 AM
I don't know. But the interceptors barely work against crude ballistic missiles from the likes of North Korea or Iran. I doubt they'd pose much of a threat to a Russian ICBM...or SLBM...

The interceptors works against any ballistic targets.Not just N/Korea and Irans.
Thrue , it works effectively ONLY against limited figures of Targets (10-15) but has no significant effect against 200.
But the problem that Russian STrategic Forces is melting.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%B8%D 1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0 %B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1% 8B_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B A%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0 %D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8
The absolute majiority of the Russian Missles today is the is the obsolet soveit RS-18( 660) and RS-20 ( 750) that have been entered in service in end 1970-80.Those are most effective and serious soviet rockets that ONLY pose a real threat to American continent( 15 000-16 000 km range of hit) It have been stopped to produse since 1990.
They have a maximal operational-time is no moe 25 years. Thus TILL the 2015 the LAst of it has would have been utilized.But indeed the most of RS-18/20 would have been destroyed already in 2009-11 becouse the operational time will expired.
Although Russian is rearming its strategical forces- we build no more 3-5 per years of Topol-M2 ( RS-12M2)
Today we have 200+ but through 5-8 years will no more 60-80 .


The Russians only have 50 missiles total? Why do I doubt this?

Because you watch the CNN that wash brains very well;)
As i said we will WILL HAVE no more 50 of Intercontinental ballistic missles that CAN threat the America.
Plus the few dozens of subcontinental ( with range no more 5 000 of km)
SO newest American Interceptors can very effectively works agains 50 russians missles ( even if dozen of missles will have reachув the aims- thay can't guaranty the TOTAL destruction of USA, thus we have the ABSOLUTLY new situation when Americans CAN strart the nuclear WW3 without fear of to be the seriously damaged)
It will be a ABSOLUTE new situation when the USA will have the absolute nuclear monopoly and it can be very dager for World.


And in anycase, the MIRV is a force multiplier that makes each missile into a dozen ones...

No my friend.
The OLD soviet Multi-warheads missles like RS-18 ( SS-19 in NATO calassification) is dying now.
Indeed the new Russian Topol-M have SINGLE warhead, but it can additional engines to manoeuvre.
This increase the chance to overcome the American interceptors field in final trajectory but decrease the ability to damage the aims.
So even 10 additional interceptors in Europe can decrease the nuclear damage of American continets, but increase the damage of Europe.


Um, Europe tends to agree with the US on many of these issues. They may well fear Russian "hegemony" or gas pipelines with shuttered valves more than the Americans across the pond......

Europe is not a threat for Russia- you have to understand it.
Russian indeed needs the Europe as much Europe needs a Russia. Becouse Russian is a part of Europe.
The Russian "hegemony" is a myth, created and supported by ...Washington.
In fact Russian depend on European market as much as the Europe need the Russian gas and oil- this is MUTUAL dependence.
And nobody will break it voluntary.
Europe can to be realy strong world leader if join the Russia as a part of it.If they got the Russian resources , gas and ets and Russian manpower - it can be very great fro all of us.
But , just ask yourself - who don't wish the STRONG independent Europe?
Right, your "lovely" USA.
The USA is going to Isolate the Russian from Europe via the Eastern Europeand puppets who FULLY supports the AMerican interests in Europe.They are obvuoisly need to separate Russian from Europe in aim to prevent the Rise of Europe.
Now russian desperatively try to resist to those puppets , and strat to build the Pipe directly to the OLD Europe ( the contract with Germany), to defend the OUR mutual Russian -European interest from the Washington.
But how many squeal today about it?
And all squeal is coming from .....you know where:)
Sad fract the BLIND Europe still depend of Washington Ambition

Chevan
08-20-2008, 02:42 AM
Not as much as I loathe our last American lap dog Prime Minister and his 'suck up to America' government for getting us involved in that disaster.



Not since we got rid of our last American lap dog government.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/smith-defends-troop-withdrawal/2008/01/29/1201369081808.html



Australia will step up its civilian commitments of aid and expertise to help with the reconstruction of both Iraq and Afghanistan while winding back its military presence in Iraq, Foreign Affairs Stephen Smith has announced.

Wow finaly they are withdrawing from Iraq.Good news.


No. Even the last government was against that. Unless there is some dramatic change in the Iran situation, that's the way it will stay.

But who does bother to creat the "dramatic change" mate?
You see the sutiation is under controll- everything is possible.Nobody guaranty that some Ultra-radical islamic group "from Iran" will attack the any state with bombs.
The everuthing next is just the matter of Mass media:)
We have seen as the 9'11 the MAss media warmed up the Anti-Iraq feeling among the americans, who after that was ready to support the "little victorious" company ( as it was promised) .
So as is said , everything is possible.

Rising Sun*
08-20-2008, 02:48 AM
So as is said , everything is possible.

I know.

That's what worries me.

The world has more than its fair share of lunatics and far too many of them have access to weapons, and increasingly dangerous ones.

alephh
08-20-2008, 06:20 AM
Russia loses again -- this time in Georgia --- Article by Frank Richter at freep

Russia's invasion of Georgia came at a huge cost. The Russian causality rate was nearly 100 times the rate suffered by U.S. forces during the Iraq invasion...
+
Russia has a long history of military disasters. Napoleon's Grand Army bested Russian soldiers in battle... The Turks beat czarist Russia in the Crimean War 1853-56. Japan bested Russia in a 1905 war. Russia lost to Germany in WW1 and was forced to cede Ukraine to the Kaiser. Even newly formed Poland licked Russia in a 1920 war, and tiny Finland humiliated the Soviets early in the Winter War, 1939-40... Even Russia's Third World neighbor Afghanistan triumphed over Soviet armies...
+
Moreover, Moscow's invasion of Georgia has given its neighbors a reason to coalesce into an emerging anti-Russian alliance... Poland has finally agreed to station American anti-missiles on Polish soil, and Ukraine and Georgia may soon find themselves on the fast track for NATO membership.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080819/OPINION02/808190327/1070/OPINION

Chevan
08-20-2008, 06:27 AM
I know.

That's what worries me.

The world has more than its fair share of lunatics and far too many of them have access to weapons, and increasingly dangerous ones.

Agree.
But i think you have to realize- that OUR cynical politicans just exploit our "patriotic feeling" and fear.
And they justify their action by our wishes.Peoples very easy believe on what the local TV inspires them.
We see it everywhere.
Probably OUR local idiots in Moscow, after they have learned how the "deeds is doing in Washington"( i mean how they justified the invasion to Iraq after 9'11), have started their own "Patriotic company" in Russian mass media.Putin calls it as "restoration of rusian power"
Of cource peoples in West might worry of this new "insolent" russian behaviour - but the other bitter true is - they simply deny their OWN insolent behaviour toward other nations.
This is sad true of our life.

Chevan
08-20-2008, 06:32 AM
Russia's invasion of Georgia came at a huge cost. The Russian causality rate was nearly 100 times the rate suffered by U.S. forces during the Iraq invasion...

What a nonsens:)
So how many russians lost in "Georgia"?
As we know the AMericans losed in Iraq about 3 000 until.
So 3 000 x 100 = 30 000 russians killed:)
This is probably the MOST STOOPID LIE that we ever heard from this dirty company:)
don't you know but whole russian forces that have been used in Georgia is SINGLE 58 Arrmy plus aviation...no mre than 15 000 of mans:)

Drake
08-20-2008, 06:44 AM
What a nonsens:)
So how many russians lost in "Georgia"?
As we know the AMericans losed in Iraq about 3 000 until.
So 3 000 x 100 = 30 000 russians killed:)
This is probably the MOST STOOPID LIE that we ever heard from this dirty company:)
don't you know but whole russian forces that have been used in Georgia is SINGLE 58 Arrmy plus aviation...no mre than 15 000 of mans:)

The quote was "during invasion", not "during occupation".

Chevan
08-20-2008, 07:01 AM
[Russia has a long history of military disasters. Napoleon's Grand Army bested Russian soldiers in battle...

And then Napoleon's Grand Army almost died during the retreat from Moscow:)


The Turks beat czarist Russia in the Crimean War 1853-56.

Not turks but British-Franch -Turks alliance.
But anyway - later Russians kicked their Turkish *** out from Causaus and Crimea:)


Japan bested Russia in a 1905 war.

And then Japs have been f..cked in 1938 and then finaly their kwantung army suck the russians ..... for TWO WEEKS in 1945


Russia lost to Germany in WW1 and was forced to cede Ukraine to the Kaiser.

Not to Kaiser but to Antanta, who let the Poland cupture theUkraine in 1920.
And not whole Ukraine but just its Western part.:)


Even newly formed Poland licked Russia in a 1920 war

But soon in 1939 have been forced to "return the captured lands" back:)


, and tiny Finland humiliated the Soviets early in the Winter War, 1939-40...

Yea and then Finns proudly payd the 300 million compansations, ships and ets to the "humiliated" USSR.
And of couse have returned all the lands of Karelia that Soviets demanded in 1939:)


Even Russia's Third World neighbor Afghanistan triumphed over Soviet armies...

This is ONLY true:)
The AFganistans is a strong GREAT countrly.
Envy to Afganistan:)


Moreover, Moscow's invasion of Georgia has given its neighbors a reason to coalesce into an emerging anti-Russian alliance... Poland has finally agreed to station American anti-missiles on Polish soil, and Ukraine and Georgia may soon find themselves on the fast track for NATO membership.

What anti-russian alliance?
IS NATO anti-russian already:)?

Chevan
08-20-2008, 07:01 AM
The quote was "during invasion", not "during occupation".
And how many have been lost during invasion to Iraq?

Drake
08-20-2008, 07:05 AM
And how many have been lost during invasion to Iraq?

Dunno, how many russians were killed during the georgian conflict :D
Devide that number through 100, hihi

Chevan
08-20-2008, 07:23 AM
Devide that number through 100, hihi

He HE
Yerstaday the Russian Military press-secretary officialy declared the figures of died - 70 KIA, 27 MIA and about 100 wounded.
SO we can divide it on 100 - Really 7 USA soldiers died during invasion?

Semper Fi
08-20-2008, 10:20 AM
Well the US and their other alliances are worried about russian agsean and the way they still have not left Georgia. But even thow they seem to be leaving the Russians may leave some units their to watch and see what happans. so it is anyones game this early. And to hard to tell how will make the frist move!

Sergej
08-20-2008, 10:45 AM
US lost 140 men, UK 33 men.
542 were woundet in action.
source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

Semper Fi
08-20-2008, 11:57 PM
was that at the start of the invasion? Or a bit later on?

Sergej
08-21-2008, 04:58 AM
At the end of the invasion on the 1 May 2003.

Nickdfresh
08-21-2008, 10:59 AM
The interceptors works against any ballistic targets.Not just N/Korea and Irans.
Thrue , it works effectively ONLY against limited figures of Targets (10-15) but has no significant effect against 200.
But the problem that Russian STrategic Forces is melting.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%B8%D 1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0 %B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1% 8B_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%B A%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0 %D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8
The absolute majiority of the Russian Missles today is the is the obsolet soveit RS-18( 660) and RS-20 ( 750) that have been entered in service in end 1970-80.Those are most effective and serious soviet rockets that ONLY pose a real threat to American continent( 15 000-16 000 km range of hit) It have been stopped to produse since 1990.
They have a maximal operational-time is no moe 25 years. Thus TILL the 2015 the LAst of it has would have been utilized.But indeed the most of RS-18/20 would have been destroyed already in 2009-11 becouse the operational time will expired.
Although Russian is rearming its strategical forces- we build no more 3-5 per years of Topol-M2 ( RS-12M2)
Today we have 200+ but through 5-8 years will no more 60-80 .

The bottom line is that the US missile defense system is probably pretty ineffective since most of the tests have been rigged and made very easy and it is a "kinetic energy based system," meaning that it is a bullet trying to hit a bullet. The Russians know this and know it presents little actual threat currently. Otherwise why not just use the new found oil wealth to modernize or expand current stocks of nukies?

The real perceived threat is in the future and based on Russian fears that the US could perfect the system, then surround any nation with an armada of missile ships and land based ABMs. But that is prohibitively expensive and a long way off...


Because you watch the CNN that wash brains very well;)
As i said we will WILL HAVE no more 50 of Intercontinental ballistic missles that CAN threat the America.
Plus the few dozens of subcontinental ( with range no more 5 000 of km)
SO newest American Interceptors can very effectively works agains 50 russians missles ( even if dozen of missles will have reachув the aims- thay can't guaranty the TOTAL destruction of USA, thus we have the ABSOLUTLY new situation when Americans CAN strart the nuclear WW3 without fear of to be the seriously damaged)
It will be a ABSOLUTE new situation when the USA will have the absolute nuclear monopoly and it can be very dager for World.

No my friend.
The OLD soviet Multi-warheads missles like RS-18 ( SS-19 in NATO classification) is dying now.
Indeed the new Russian Topol-M have SINGLE warhead, but it can additional engines to manoeuvre.
This increase the chance to overcome the American interceptors field in final trajectory but decrease the ability to damage the aims.
So even 10 additional interceptors in Europe can decrease the nuclear damage of American continets, but increase the damage of Europe.

Europe is not a threat for Russia- you have to understand it.
Russian indeed needs the Europe as much Europe needs a Russia. Becouse Russian is a part of Europe.
The Russian "hegemony" is a myth, created and supported by ...Washington.
In fact Russian depend on European market as much as the Europe need the Russian gas and oil- this is MUTUAL dependence.
And nobody will break it voluntary.
Europe can to be realy strong world leader if join the Russia as a part of it.If they got the Russian resources , gas and ets and Russian manpower - it can be very great fro all of us.
But , just ask yourself - who don't wish the STRONG independent Europe?
Right, your "lovely" USA.
The USA is going to Isolate the Russian from Europe via the Eastern Europeand puppets who FULLY supports the AMerican interests in Europe.They are obvuoisly need to separate Russian from Europe in aim to prevent the Rise of Europe.
Now russian desperatively try to resist to those puppets , and strat to build the Pipe directly to the OLD Europe ( the contract with Germany), to defend the OUR mutual Russian -European interest from the Washington.
But how many squeal today about it?
And all squeal is coming from .....you know where:)
Sad fract the BLIND Europe still depend of Washington Ambition

Even if a few missiles got through, there still would be untold devastation, and the US would cease to be a power. And your pronouncements of the eroding Russian nuclear force are heavily speculative...


Current composition

The composition of missiles and warheads of the Strategic Rocket Forces must be revealed as part of the START II treaty exchange. The latest date of exchange was January 1, 2005.

At the beginning of 2008 the Russian strategic forces included 702 strategic delivery platforms, which can carry up to 3155 nuclear warheads. The Strategic Rocket Forces have 452 operational missile systems of four types that can carry 1677 warheads. The strategic fleet includes 14 strategic missile submarines. Their 172 missiles can carry 606 nuclear warheads. Strategic aviation bomber force consists of 78 bombers that can carry up to 872 long-range cruise missiles. The space-based tier of the early warning system included three satellites that appear operational—two on highly elliptical orbits and one on a geostationary orbit.

The Strategic Rocket Forces operate four distinct missile systems. The oldest system is the R-36M / SS-18 Satan which is capable of carrying ten warheads. 85 remain in service, although plans to retire the older of the two versions in service, the R-36MUTTH, will leave 40 of the less aged R-36M2 in service past 2020. The other missile capable of carrying a MIRV warhead is the UR-100NUTTH or SS-19 as it is known to NATO, with 129 in service with up to six warheads each. The most numerous missile serving is the Topol or SS-25, a road-mobile missile. Despite over 300 in service, they are reaching the end of their service lives and are due for replacement. The only new missile entering service is the Topol-M, or SS-27, and can be either silo-based or road-mobile. Deployment has begun with the announcement of the first operational unit, but full-scale entry into service is expected from 2006.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Rocket_Forces
...

The above hardly seems trivial...

And the US has "European puppets?" LMFAO!! Chevan, that is a seriously deluded asnd insulting statements you've ever made. The vast majority of Poles did not support the US basing ABMs on their territory until the invasion of Georgia, where the ratio slipped to an overwhelming public support. This despite, OR EVEN BECAUSE of Russian threats to nuke Poland.

Russia has no one to blame but itself for the wariness of the surrounding European powers. If anything, the current clowns in the US executive branch have only mostly ignored Russia for the past seven years. Remembers the days of when Putin and Bush gazed lovingly into each others eyes, and saw their "souls?".. ;)

Semper Fi
08-23-2008, 02:00 AM
The bottom line is that the US missile defense system is probably pretty ineffective since most of the tests have been rigged and made very easy and it is a "kinetic energy based system," meaning that it is a bullet trying to hit a bullet. The Russians know this and know it presents little actual threat currently. Otherwise why not just use the new found oil wealth to modernize or expand current stocks of nukies?

The real perceived threat is in the future and based on Russian fears that the US could perfect the system, then surround any nation with an armada of missile ships and land based ABMs. But that is prohibitively expensive and a long way off...



Even if a few missiles got through, there still would be untold devastation, and the US would cease to be a power. And your pronouncements of the eroding Russian nuclear force are heavily speculative...



The above hardly seems trivial...

And the US has "European puppets?" LMFAO!! Chevan, that is a seriously deluded asnd insulting statements you've ever made. The vast majority of Poles did not support the US basing ABMs on their territory until the invasion of Georgia, where the ratio slipped to an overwhelming public support. This despite, OR EVEN BECAUSE of Russian threats to nuke Poland.

Russia has no one to blame but itself for the wariness of the surrounding European powers. If anything, the current clowns in the US executive branch have only mostly ignored Russia for the past seven years. Remembers the days of when Putin and Bush gazed lovingly into each others eyes, and saw their "souls?".. ;)

Alright that is enough, Chevan has a point, and Russia has to blame it's self and so does the US for not watching and seeing the problem before hand. If Georgia started this then Everone shoud of seen it coming. This is a problem that even I fore seen coming but a little sooner!

Nickdfresh
08-23-2008, 10:37 PM
Alright that is enough, Chevan has a point, and Russia has to blame it's self and so does the US for not watching and seeing the problem before hand....

Which was exactly my point, guy who "hates Russians"... :rolleyes:

tranquill
08-29-2008, 01:50 PM
Russia-Georgia conflict created a big headache for Israel which armed and trained Georgians for years - and now suddenly Russians threaten retaliation by supplying S-300 SAM batteries to Syria. Here is what a prominent Israeli analyst says: http://samsonblinded.org/blog/on-russia-georgia-and-israel.htm

Chevan
09-01-2008, 08:17 AM
Russia-Georgia conflict created a big headache for Israel which armed and trained Georgians for years - and now suddenly Russians threaten retaliation by supplying S-300 SAM batteries to Syria.
Unfortinately this scenario is very possible
And just to Israel but tprobably to Iran also.
If Israel wil continie to train and arm the Geogia more, it might spoil the relation finally.

pdf27
09-01-2008, 09:08 AM
The bottom line is that the US missile defense system is probably pretty ineffective since most of the tests have been rigged and made very easy
Errr.... there is a MASSIVE difference between a development test (which these were) and a system demonstration test. Doing a system demonstration test when you're in a development phase is moronic - you're almost guaranteed to fail and won't learn anything. When development testing you ALWAYS fix the test so as to test only a single subsystem - so you don't have things like decoys deployed unless you're specifically testing decoy discrimination.
Oh, and the definition of "ineffective" is suprisingly elastic. If the system runs on shoot-shoot-shoot-look (probable, given the ranges it runs at), an interceptor missile system with 20% effectiveness will still destroy half of the incoming missiles. Since the enemy don't know which half, they have to double-target everything they want to destroy - meaning that the three interceptor missiles of 20% effectiveness each have neutralised half of the enemy deterrent.


and it is a "kinetic energy based system," meaning that it is a bullet trying to hit a bullet.
You realise, of course, that a bullet is about the easiest target there is? It's falling under gravity with no accelerative force, so if you get two positions and a time at those positions you can know it's exact position for the rest of it's flight at any given time. After that it's just a matter of ensuring your interceptor missile is in the same position at the same time as the incoming missile (which you don't even need a homing warhead on the interceptor to achieve).
Incidentally, the ability to do this isn't new. The US did so out of Kwajalein in the 1960s as part of the Nike Zeus programme. There are some fairly spectacular photos of them doing so out there - I'll see if I can dig them up tonight.


The Russians know this and know it presents little actual threat currently.
Which is why the Russians have had a working ABM system surrounding Moscow since around the 1970s?


Even if a few missiles got through, there still would be untold devastation, and the US would cease to be a power.
Utter b*llocks. Get yourself a nuclear bomb effects calculator and work out the effects on your home town of a 300kT nuclear strike. Hurricane Katrina did more damage than a strike by a single warhead - the problems come when they fly by the thousands and break up the fabric of society. Most casualties would come from starvation and disease, not the weapons themselves.

Nickdfresh
09-01-2008, 07:25 PM
Errr.... there is a MASSIVE difference between a development test (which these were) and a system demonstration test. Doing a system demonstration test when you're in a development phase is moronic - you're almost guaranteed to fail and won't learn anything. When development testing you ALWAYS fix the test so as to test only a single subsystem - so you don't have things like decoys deployed unless you're specifically testing decoy discrimination.

Right. But the system has had very little return after a huge investment. In any case, my point is that the "missile defense system" (code for ABM) is a crap shoot at best, and a very expensive one. It is plausible against a relatively crude ICBM that Iran or North Korea might build in the next few years. But it would have little real effect on determined Russian or Chinese countermeasures...


Oh, and the definition of "ineffective" is suprisingly elastic. If the system runs on shoot-shoot-shoot-look (probable, given the ranges it runs at), an interceptor missile system with 20% effectiveness will still destroy half of the incoming missiles. Since the enemy don't know which half, they have to double-target everything they want to destroy - meaning that the three interceptor missiles of 20% effectiveness each have neutralised half of the enemy deterrent.

Yes well, we were talking about MIRVs again? Such a system is also rather easy to spoof with multiple decoys. Any technologically sophisticated power can in turn develop defenses for their offensive systems, which will quickly force expensive upgrades and countermeasures to them. So "deterrence" is a two-way street. And we're just in another arms race - which is why the ABM treaty was established in the first place..


You realise, of course, that a bullet is about the easiest target there is? It's falling under gravity with no accelerative force, so if you get two positions and a time at those positions you can know it's exact position for the rest of it's flight at any given time. After that it's just a matter of ensuring your interceptor missile is in the same position at the same time as the incoming missile (which you don't even need a homing warhead on the interceptor to achieve).
Incidentally, the ability to do this isn't new. The US did so out of Kwajalein in the 1960s as part of the Nike Zeus programme. There are some fairly spectacular photos of them doing so out there - I'll see if I can dig them up tonight.

Please do. But part of the reason that the Nike program was ultimately outmoded (I live down the street from one of the bases abandoned in the early 1970s) is that the actual operational Nike systems had nuclear warheads that were in essence there to form a ring of fire that would pummel and disrupt incoming Soviet ICBMs. The problem is that this produced a whole host of other problems such as EMP bursts, which would cripple all electronics.

Also hitting a "bullet with a bullet" means that you need enough bullets to hit your enemy's machine-gun burst. Part of the reason for the ABM treaty. Part of the reason the US abandoned even the concept of the 100 interceptors allowed, even though the Sprint missile was very promising. What was the point of possibly saving one city? Or missile wing from a first strike?


Which is why the Russians have had a working ABM system surrounding Moscow since around the 1970s?

Don't you mean the 1950s (in one form or another)? But anyways, the system was only a marginal threat to American deterrence and certainly would not have spared Moscow. The Soviets decided to maintain an outdated ABM system whereas the US decided not too bother, because in the end, the result is the same.

Such a system would also probably not been effective against cruise missiles. And how they would have fared against SLBMs, I'm not sure. But the subs would certainly have cut their window of warning!

In any case, the (US) interceptors to be based in Poland number only ten, and are not on-station in the direct arctic path of Russian nuclear warheads. They are in the direct axis of Iranian missiles should they ever come on line. But you are correct, the Russian gov't is hypocritical decrying US ballistic missile defense while themselves optioning the clause in the ABM Treaty allowing up to 100 of them.


Utter b*llocks. Get yourself a nuclear bomb effects calculator and work out the effects on your home town of a 300kT nuclear strike. Hurricane Katrina did more damage than a strike by a single warhead - the problems come when they fly by the thousands and break up the fabric of society. Most casualties would come from starvation and disease, not the weapons themselves.

Um, do I need to remind you that Katrina was in a zone that was at least partially evacuated and killed "only" about 1000, which is small compared to comparable disasters such as The Tsunami, the Iranian and Chinese earthquakes. But by the same token, a terror attack involving two airliners and 3000 dead damaged the US economy and effected the Dow to the tune of -400 points in one day. The US economy has never fully recovered, though partly due to the stupidity of a pResident deciding to punish "the Chinese" for the "Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor." Even Katrina caused a disruption of US gas and oil supplies, though things were easily rerouted. I doubt the added catastrophe of radiation and huge fires from multiple nukes could be compared to the localized, long term effects of the flooding of one US city. Not too mention that relief and rebuilding would be hideously expensive.

In any case, a few US cities would cause utter economic chaos. Even four or five US cities would result in millions killed and severe disruptions to the US economy since the US is relatively densely populated.

pdf27
09-02-2008, 03:02 AM
Yes well, we were talking about MIRVs again? Such a system is also rather easy to spoof with multiple decoys. Any technologically sophisticated power can in turn develop defenses for their offensive systems, which will quickly force expensive upgrades and countermeasures to them.
Just about to leg it for work, so I'm limited to a short answer for this one. Most missile defence systems (the current US one included) have enough range to hit the warhead bus rather than the incoming warheads themselves. AIUI there is some fundamental physics which means a warhead can't be launched more than a certain distance out, meaning the bus will always be vulnerable. As for decoys, take a look at how long it took the UK to build Chevaline. That took years, cost billions, and halved the number of warheads the UK was able to deliver to Russia. Even if the Russian defences never shot down an incoming missile, that's still a major success.

Egorka
09-02-2008, 03:44 AM
Don't you mean the 1950s (in one form or another)?
The ring built in the beginning of 1950s around Moscow was not ABM system, but SAM missile ring. Operational from 1955. It was first populated by S-25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-25_Berkut) liquid powered rockets (SA-1 Guild in NATO naming convention). It had range of 35km at 20km height in 1955. In 1970 these characteristics were improved - 54km range at 35km height.
The overal responsible for the construction (just like with nuclear weapon) was "the world's best manager" Lavrentiy Beria.
In later years when the system was replaced (1970) it was used for targets during training.

http://www.raspletin.ru/produce/adms/s25/pics/s25-pic014.jpg http://pvo.guns.ru/images/sa01/nb/Poziciya_01_sm.jpg http://jpe.ru/1/big/100708/4zgn24u15.jpg
http://www.raspletin.ru/produce/adms/s25/
http://pvo.forum24.ru/?1-2-0-00000004-000-0-0-1218543441


But anyways, the system was only a marginal threat to American deterrence and certainly would not have spared Moscow. The Soviets decided to maintain an outdated ABM system whereas the US decided not too bother, because in the end, the result is the same.
Well, again it is not an ABM, but SAM system.

pdf27
09-02-2008, 05:40 AM
Well, again it is not an ABM, but SAM system.Not according to the ABM treaty, which lists the Russians as having a system (A-35, later A-135) around Moscow.
Oh, and the majority of Russian SAM systems are generally thought to have at least some ABM capabilities, although for treaty reasons the Russians tend to keep quiet about them.

Egorka
09-02-2008, 06:09 AM
Not according to the ABM treaty, which lists the Russians as having a system (A-35, later A-135) around Moscow.
Oh, and the majority of Russian SAM systems are generally thought to have at least some ABM capabilities, although for treaty reasons the Russians tend to keep quiet about them.
Right. But that was from 1971. I was replying for the period before that.
The S-25 was not designed initially for ABM purposes as the BM themselves were in practice nonexistent back then.

Chevan
09-03-2008, 02:55 AM
Well i do agree with pdf.
USA militarists actualy know what they do.
The newest ABM in europe can seriously decrease the risk of total nuclear destruction of America from the quickly thawing Russian Starategic forces.Firstly because the essential Part of Russian Missles shall be redirected on the Territory of Europe for initial destroing the ABM.
So hardly we can ignore such a threat.
The few American easy cities can be sucrificed for the NAme of Nuclear victory over Russia and China ( The Chinas strategical forces are still very small and can threat the USA)

Chevan
09-03-2008, 03:24 AM
And the US has "European puppets?" LMFAO!! Chevan, that is a seriously deluded asnd insulting statements you've ever made.

Oh come on Nicki.
The USA have a lot of puppets, "pocket dictators" and other "our bastards" around the all the world, suppliing them with money and wearpon.
Look for instance at Pakistan where the "american friend Musharaf" were ruling by the brutal methods decades.
The GEorgian puppets officially getting salary from American department since 2005:)
The several millions dollars of American taxpayers have been spended to a creation of pro-american regime in GEorgia that did ONLY what USA permit him:)
But idiot Saakashvili finaly has commited a mistake- that just prove a sad true- not every "our bastard" is useful for democracy as i said before.


The vast majority of Poles did not support the US basing ABMs on their territory until the invasion of Georgia, where the ratio slipped to an overwhelming public support. This despite, OR EVEN BECAUSE of Russian threats to nuke Poland.

The reasonable majority of Poland can't greetings the ABM on their territory- becouse this is too small to protec the Poland from innevitable Russian nuclear attack.To the contrast- the ABM seriously increase the danger of Total destruction of Poland.
I think , it is not Poles but their puppet elite lick the American *** , seeking the personal profit for themself.
Betraying the European safety at the same time.
Your paranoidal Neocons seems are ready for everything to "Protect their Isreal" from Iranian/Korean miisles.


Russia has no one to blame but itself for the wariness of the surrounding European powers.

Yea , now tell me fary tels like a Russia supplied and PRed the Muslim extremist in Balcans.
All the russia can do - ( and have to do) is just to Protect their interests by economical methods.
The USA don't even care about economic , prefering to send a right bombers and troops everywhere.

Nickdfresh
09-03-2008, 10:15 PM
Oh come on Nicki.
The USA have a lot of puppets, "pocket dictators" and other "our bastards" around the all the world, suppliing them with money and wearpon.
Look for instance at Pakistan where the "american friend Musharaf" were ruling by the brutal methods decades.
The GEorgian puppets officially getting salary from American department since 2005:)
The several millions dollars of American taxpayers have been spended to a creation of pro-american regime in GEorgia that did ONLY what USA permit him:)
But idiot Saakashvili finaly has commited a mistake- that just prove a sad true- not every "our bastard" is useful for democracy as i said before.

Of course! Anyone that disagrees that they should not want to return to the empire of mother Russia must be a paid American agent!

And the pro-American Georgian regime was created by Georgians. A concept that the Russian gov't seems to fear more than anything else...


The reasonable majority of Poland can't greetings the ABM on their territory- becouse this is too small to protec the Poland from innevitable Russian nuclear attack.To the contrast- the ABM seriously increase the danger of Total destruction of Poland.
I think , it is not Poles but their puppet elite lick the American *** , seeking the personal profit for themself.
Betraying the European safety at the same time.
Your paranoidal Neocons seems are ready for everything to "Protect their Isreal" from Iranian/Korean miisles.

Stop! You're making the Bush Admin seem sort of intelligent! They've managed to cause an ineffective ABM system to actually deflect any Russian inbound nuclear weapons to Poland! :D (Where the winds will blow all of the radioactive fallout right back too you!);)

I once dated a girl of Polish decent, but I never could get her to lick my ***!

And the interceptors actually are designed to protect the American continent...


Yea , now tell me fary tels like a Russia supplied and PRed the Muslim extremist in Balcans.
All the russia can do - ( and have to do) is just to Protect their interests by economical methods.
The USA don't even care about economic , prefering to send a right bombers and troops everywhere.

Um, then why do we throw our money around?

Chevan
09-04-2008, 07:06 AM
Of course! Anyone that disagrees that they should not want to return to the empire of mother Russia must be a paid American agent!

Return to empire?
I have no idea who wanted to return Eastern Europe to the "Russian empire" in 1990-yy..Have you?


And the pro-American Georgian regime was created by Georgians. A concept that the Russian gov't seems to fear more than anything else...

The pro-American dictator Saakashvili neven could take the power in Georgia without the rich American sponsorship and leadership:)
We all know it. i mean the fact thow USA care about installation of pro-american regimes in post -soviet territories.


Stop! You're making the Bush Admin seem sort of intelligent! They've managed to cause an ineffective ABM system to actually deflect any Russian inbound nuclear weapons to Poland! :D (Where the winds will blow all of the radioactive fallout right back too you!);)

The Bush admin ( if Admin really rules in that country) is not that ineffective as it can seems.
The ABM can actualy make lower risk for USA , but it can burn the Europe.
And ...one importaint addition....The radioactive fallout would fly no right on my head , but Initialy on the heads of Poles, Germans, Italians and Chehoslovakians, ....then Ukrainians
And say me please ,why shall Europeans suffer becouse few Polish political is going to get personal profit from American ABM?


I once dated a girl of Polish decent, but I never could get her to lick my ***!

It's because the beautiful Polish girl ( i like them BTW ) have a proudness.
But the number of cheap polish political prostitutes are ready to Lick whatever mr G. Bush wish , not only his ***.:)


And the interceptors actually are designed to protect the American continent...

Nobody disputes it.
But on the other hand the American interceptors, placed in Poland, should transform the Europe into the Nuclear Battlefield.Europe is going to be a Hostage of American puppets.


Um, then why do we throw our money around?
Because YOUR money Nick , costs nothing,( even gramm of gold) without American world's hegemony.
So trying to save YOUR hegemony , American admins thow the Money around.
US administration simply don't know how to spend money right inside US.So they use the monetary interventions very active, adding it to their Military interventions around the world.

Nickdfresh
09-05-2008, 03:46 PM
Return to empire?
I have no idea who wanted to return Eastern Europe to the "Russian empire" in 1990-yy..Have you?

Not in the traditional sense, but no one can deny that Russia has territorial aims on former Soviet republics that are not expressly Russian...


The pro-American dictator Saakashvili neven could take the power in Georgia without the rich American sponsorship and leadership:)
We all know it. i mean the fact thow USA care about installation of pro-american regimes in post -soviet territories.


You keep repeating this silly "dictator" shit. He was elected. Get over it!

And in fact, the US gov't strongly advised him against prosecuting the offensive...


The Bush admin ( if Admin really rules in that country) is not that ineffective as it can seems.
The ABM can actualy make lower risk for USA , but it can burn the Europe.
And ...one importaint addition....The radioactive fallout would fly no right on my head , but Initialy on the heads of Poles, Germans, Italians and Chehoslovakians, ....then Ukrainians
And say me please ,why shall Europeans suffer becouse few Polish political is going to get personal profit from American ABM?


So it's all about Russian nuclear extortion then? Over ten interceptors with demonstrably limited effectiveness?

Really?



It's because the beautiful Polish girl ( i like them BTW ) have a proudness.
But the number of cheap polish political prostitutes are ready to Lick whatever mr G. Bush wish , not only his ***.:)

What a myopic view. You're "enemies" are all whores, but your lapdogs are all vailent?


Nobody disputes it.
But on the other hand the American interceptors, placed in Poland, should transform the Europe into the Nuclear Battlefield.Europe is going to be a Hostage of American puppets.

So, in the improbably event of the US nuking Russia, Russia will retaliate by nuking Estonia?


Because YOUR money Nick , costs nothing,( even gramm of gold) without American world's hegemony.
So trying to save YOUR hegemony , American admins thow the Money around.
US administration simply don't know how to spend money right inside US.So they use the monetary interventions very active, adding it to their Military interventions around the world.


So, we are smart enough to not just use military force to achieve our aims?

Kovalski
09-10-2008, 07:05 PM
Does anybody know why Georgia is considered the biggest country in the world?

B5N2KATE
09-11-2008, 06:16 AM
Ah yes....good ol'Russian Imperialism and Empire building rears it's ugly head YET AGAIN.

When, oh when, are you people going to learn that there is room for only one policeman of the Globe?....

AND IT'S NOT RUSSIA....

We niether trust your archaic leadership style, your heavy handed economics, or your glorious insistance that your nieghbours march to the tune of your drums and fifes.

FACE IT....NOBODY wants to be ruled by hydraulic despots. I would gladly support any move by Russia to cease to be power players and start to be trading humans again.

Sort out yourselves economically and socially and then we may listen to your sabre rattling....meantime....get back in the dog box.....your time of empire has PASSED. Even the Great British Empire ended with a whimper rather than a large bang.....and the United States is not finished by a long chalk.....so wise up and fix your own internal problems before presuming that the rest of us take your sordid country seriously as anything on the global stage.

B5N2KATE
09-11-2008, 06:27 AM
Quick tip......MONEY comes frome TRADE which is the result of PRODUCTS that you make and sell that people want and purchace......learn this lesson and join the global community, rather than being permanent outsiders with a grudge at the world for not recognizing your greatness.....STALIN and friends guaranteed that we have to wait for the memories of that period to die before Russians can become part of the community again.....

SORT OUT YOUR INTERNAL PROBLEMS, THEN LECTURE THE REST OF US ON HOW TO CONDUCT OUR AFFAIRS.....

And, if you can possibly trade without involving organised crime at every turn, then and only then will you start to make MONEY....

At the moment you lose 1 dollar to corruption for every 4 that enter the country....

No wonder nobody wants to conduct business with you. The employees for the oil and gas companies that I deal with all say the same thing of Russian companies...

Impossible to deal with.

Clean your act up.....

Rising Sun*
09-11-2008, 08:08 AM
Quick tip......MONEY comes frome TRADE which is the result of PRODUCTS that you make and sell that people want and purchace......learn this lesson and join the global community, rather than being permanent outsiders with a grudge at the world for not recognizing your greatness.....STALIN and friends guaranteed that we have to wait for the memories of that period to die before Russians can become part of the community again.....

SORT OUT YOUR INTERNAL PROBLEMS, THEN LECTURE THE REST OF US ON HOW TO CONDUCT OUR AFFAIRS.....

And, if you can possibly trade without involving organised crime at every turn, then and only then will you start to make MONEY....

At the moment you lose 1 dollar to corruption for every 4 that enter the country....

No wonder nobody wants to conduct business with you. The employees for the oil and gas companies that I deal with all say the same thing of Russian companies...

Impossible to deal with.

Clean your act up.....

Yeah, you dumb Russians. ;)

Learn from America, the home of free trade. :rolleyes:

First step: Outlaw tariffs and other trade barriers for everyone, except your own country.

Second step: Outlaw economic distortions like government support for primary industry, then pump government money into your primary industry like there is no tomorrow.

Third step: Lecture the rest of the world on the importance of outlawing trade barriers and economic distortions.

Fourth step: Demand that all countries open their markets to imports, while insisting that this does not apply to your own country.

Fifth step: When other countries say that you're being selfish and inconsistent, crack the shits at the WTO conference and stalk off in a sulk because you can't get your own way.

:twisted::twisted::twisted:

32Bravo
09-11-2008, 08:55 AM
Ah yes....good ol'Russian Imperialism and Empire building rears it's ugly head YET AGAIN.

When, oh when, are you people going to learn that there is room for only one policeman of the Globe?....

AND IT'S NOT RUSSIA....

We niether trust your archaic leadership style, your heavy handed economics, or your glorious insistance that your nieghbours march to the tune of your drums and fifes.

FACE IT....NOBODY wants to be ruled by hydraulic despots. I would gladly support any move by Russia to cease to be power players and start to be trading humans again.

Sort out yourselves economically and socially and then we may listen to your sabre rattling....meantime....get back in the dog box.....your time of empire has PASSED. Even the Great British Empire ended with a whimper rather than a large bang.....and the United States is not finished by a long chalk.....so wise up and fix your own internal problems before presuming that the rest of us take your sordid country seriously as anything on the global stage.


What a load of ballocks!

B5N2KATE
09-11-2008, 02:00 PM
a fine measure of the essential living standards in any country you can name is defined by the number of people trying to enter or leave the nation in question.......and I still see plenty of people attempting to LEAVE a country like Russia, ....

and a hell of a lot of people trying to ENTER the United States of America....

sums it up for me....

case dismissed, really....

B5N2KATE
09-11-2008, 02:05 PM
If business customers suddenly withdraw their energy products, I would not do business with them either....

Lets see them run their own oil ang gas industry to any great degree of profit....fat chance.....not without U.S. help.

U.S. oil and gas technology fuels the globe.....and they don't just shut off supply of their product to macro customers.....

32Bravo
09-11-2008, 04:11 PM
Sadly, for you, Kitty, it isn't just about your opinion. Even if you do wish to consider yourself prosecuter, judge and jury.

Everyone knows how wonderful the USA is. Not only have American citizens been raised on a diet of 'Peace, Justice and the American way' but the rest of the world has had to endure it also. Mainly through the brainwashing machinations of Hollywood. Of course, this is rather good for America as it helps a number of states remain united by promoting an attitude of 'why exchange this Utopian society for something less' i.e. a break up of the union - be grateful that you're not still enslaved under the tyranny of King George! :roll:

The hypocricy of it all is truly alarming to those who moved mountains to get there only to find that it's a sham. :(

For example: we speak of the corruption of organised crime in Russia - but who set the standard for organised crime if not the U.S. ?
Deniable, of course, because J Edgar Hoover was an Arse-bandit who was being blackmailed by the Mafia and, therefore, had to deny that organised crime existed so that the organisation of which he was the head wouldn't have to investigate it. Then there is this rubbish about the 'Untouchables' (who might have been touched by Hoover), whom Hoover used as an excuse for not investigating organised crime as he didn't want his men (the said 'Untouchables' which implied incorruptable) to be corrupted by the criminals which they might have had to investigate. So, for decades, the Mafia was able to organise and consolidate and now they are beyond the law. So much so, that they practically run the country after generations of education, networking and politicing.

Now you talk about Russia not being welcome in joining the international community, as if you have the authority to say who and who may not become a part of the international community, Are you kidding?...who the Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo are you?

This isn't even cold war prejudices as the differences between Russia and the US go back further than WW2. What it is, is the bleating of somebody who feels threatened by a new challenger, a new kid on the block.

In reality, Russia isn't even your problem - China is!

Finally, let's face it most of the top, successful Americans didn't get to where they are for standing on their feet but, rather, getting down on their knees, taking some meat and giving some head!

I offer my apologies to all decent and upright Americans if my comments are offensive to them. :(

32Bravo
09-11-2008, 04:17 PM
U.S. oil and gas technology fuels the globe.....and they don't just shut off supply of their product to macro customers.....

Of course not, there's no profit in doing so.

But US companies have done that sort of thing for a couple of centuries, at least, both nationally and internationally. It's simple economics, supply and demand, and if one has the monopoly, then one manipulates the situation to further one's own profit.

Perhaps you ought to go back to business school and try for an MBA. :)

B5N2KATE
09-12-2008, 11:09 AM
Doesn't sound like the Russians are practising good economics in Georgia/South Ascetia either....

Maybe your advice should be directed at the Kremlin.....

MY point was that nobody really wants to do business with Russian companies, and there are sound reasons for this state of affairs that are firmly in the hands of the Russians themselves.

Russia must change it's business practice to suit the global reality, not the other way around. But as always, they just don't "get" capitalism...

Once again, it's the leadership that bears the responsibility for this.....the same tired old men running the country the same shoddy way they have since 1917......

B5N2KATE
09-12-2008, 11:15 AM
BTW....U.S. China relations have ALWAYS been on a different level to Anglo/Soviet....

America is to be the principle benificiary of the economic bonanza that Chinese markets represent.....the relationship is already set...

We in the West have a mutual dependancy on Chinese markets, just as they are dependant on us for the constant supply of raw materials to make it all happen...

Russia is just a second rate business community, and will continue to be so until THEY change their outlook....

Just telling it like it is.....

Remember.....good U.S./Chinese relations go back a LONG way......but confrontation with Russia is still quite possible in the near future.....work it out for yourself which way the Chinese will go....it's easy to see the "lay of the land" for the immediate future and for a great many years to come....

Whilst that trade relationship exists, so to will there be a big ideological fence between Russia and most of the rest of the global business community. This is something only RUSSIANS can alter.....sad fact.

All the oil in the world won't matter if you cannot extract it efficiently, or refine it on a scale worth talking about.....Russian industry has always concentrated on prestige projects for national pride, rather than attempting to cater for the market concerned....you certainly don't need a degree in economics to understand this...

Furthermore, the moment you think the West is not your cup of tea, you are free to leave.....just shut the door as you go out thanks. I'll take the U.S. offer any day of the week. We Aussies REMEMBER 1941-45....

So should you......

32Bravo
09-12-2008, 11:48 AM
Furthermore, the moment you think the West is not your cup of tea, you are free to leave.....just shut the door as you go out thanks. I'll take the U.S. offer any day of the week. We Aussies REMEMBER 1941-45....

So should you......


What are you talking about? :roll:

Rising Sun*
09-12-2008, 12:06 PM
MY point was that nobody really wants to do business with Russian companies, and there are sound reasons for this state of affairs that are firmly in the hands of the Russians themselves.

Russia must change it's business practice to suit the global reality, not the other way around. But as always, they just don't "get" capitalism...

And the rest of the world wants to do business with Exxon and Halliburton?

And the US shouldn't change its business practices to suit whatever is the global reality?

The Russian oligarchs and others get capitalism just fine. Only they're operating like the American robber barons a century ago, who founded the magnificent American economy which ****s up the rest of the world with shit like moronic sub-prime mortgage lending.

I don't see why the Russians shouldn't be allowed the opportunity to **** up the rest of the world by emulating the practices which made America great. Sauce for the goose, and all that. :twisted:


Once again, it's the leadership that bears the responsibility for this.....the same tired old men running the country the same shoddy way they have since 1917......

Unlike that refreshingly innovative dork known as Dubya and his cabal?

Yeah, right!

Rising Sun*
09-12-2008, 12:30 PM
BTW....U.S. China relations have ALWAYS been on a different level to Anglo/Soviet....

True.

America ignored China until Nixon realised it was there in a capacity other than as part of the international communist conspiracy against America and the West.


America is to be the principle benificiary of the economic bonanza that Chinese markets represent.....the relationship is already set...

We in the West have a mutual dependancy on Chinese markets, just as they are dependant on us for the constant supply of raw materials to make it all happen...

Australia is rather more dependent on China and exporting raw materials to it than the US is, which is why we may survive the current international economic problems caused by overpaid ****wits in America giving home loans to people who had no hope of repaying them. It might also be why China will, in time, replay 1942 with us if we deny it the raw materials it needs from us to sustain its growth.


Russia is just a second rate business community, and will continue to be so until THEY change their outlook....

I don't think so.

Russia is, and always has been, a huge economy which, finally, is being allowed to find its place in the international market on competitive terms.

A nation which managed to win the space race against America is not second rate by any standards.


Whilst that trade relationship exists, so to will there be a big ideological fence between Russia and most of the rest of the global business community. This is something only RUSSIANS can alter.....sad fact.

So, morons like Sarah Palin saying that the US should go to war with Russia over Georgia couldn't do anything to alter the conflict between Russia and the rest of the world? :rolleyes:


All the oil in the world won't matter if you cannot extract it efficiently, or refine it on a scale worth talking about.....Russian industry has always concentrated on prestige projects for national pride, rather than attempting to cater for the market concerned....you certainly don't need a degree in economics to understand this...

Russian industry managed to put a dog and a man into space with considerably less resources than the Americans who at the time were fully occupied blowing up their rockets on their launch pads.


Furthermore, the moment you think the West is not your cup of tea, you are free to leave.....just shut the door as you go out thanks. I'll take the U.S. offer any day of the week. We Aussies REMEMBER 1941-45....

What do we remember about 1941-45?

American naval victories in the Coral Sea and Midway, and the land victory in Guadalcanal, which undoubtedly contributed to our survival.

But primarily because America wanted us as a base to strike at Japan. I don't have a problem with that, because all nations act in their own interests. But the Yanks weren't down here because they were in love with us at the levels which made the decision to put them here, whatever the pleasant relations may have been between us and their men who had a simpler view of the reason they were here.

As for fraternal relations, check out what America did in controlling aspects of the war in the Pacific and SWPA to get control of civilian air routes from Australia to America during the war, and what MacArthur did to deny Australian forces their proper recognition for fighting the first war against Japan while he was denigrating our forces at every opportunity and extolling his rather unimpressive forces at the same time.

Nickdfresh
09-12-2008, 12:50 PM
...
For example: we speak of the corruption of organised crime in Russia - but who set the standard for organised crime if not the U.S. ?

Well, to be fair, the US has rarely had a modern organized crime force that was homegrown. Most of it was transplanted from other nations whose gangsters were able to come here to enjoy of lax, corrupt police completely ignorant typically WASP police in the 1800s, until the Irish took over the job here.

La Cosa Nostra would be the prime example. Most sophisticated Organized criminals came from Sicily, and then later -other ethnic criminals followed the immigrants such as the Asian Triad gangs, of the El Salvadorian M18...


Deniable, of course, because J Edgar Hoover was an Arse-bandit who was being blackmailed by the Mafia and, therefore, had to deny that organised crime existed so that the organisation of which he was the head wouldn't have to investigate it.

Hoover may have been a tail-pipe commando, a "switcher," or an enormously repressed, but perverted hetero. But the one thing that is sure is that he had the US's largest collection of pornography of all stripes from confiscations and raids, and personal access to nearly all of it!

But the idea that the Mob was "blackmailing him" is probably off-base. I detest what a ***** he was, but Hoover more likely ignored the mafia because he feared his "uncorruptable G-men" being lured by the big money and bribes as the cops in the American city police departments were, especially the detectives, all throughout the first half of the 20th century...Thusly, he ignored organized crime until RFK forced his hand...


Then there is this rubbish about the 'Untouchables' (who might have been touched by Hoover), whom Hoover used as an excuse for not investigating organised crime as he didn't want his men (the said 'Untouchables' which implied incorruptable) to be corrupted by the criminals which they might have had to investigate. So, for decades, the Mafia was able to organise and consolidate and now they are beyond the law. So much so, that they practically run the country after generations of education, networking and politicing.

The Untouchables were not with the FBI, they were under the Treasury Dept. I believe, and were investigating rum-running. But Al Capone was brought down by the IRS for tax fraud, not Eliot Ness or the FBI...

Rising Sun*
09-12-2008, 01:05 PM
Well, to be fair, the US has rarely had a modern organized crime force that was homegrown. Most of it was transplanted from other nations whose gangsters were able to come here to enjoy of lax, corrupt police completely ignorant typically WASP police in the 1800s, until the Irish took over the job here.

Typical!

Now you're going to get stuck into the Irish, like everyone else does. :rolleyes: ;)

Like Tammany Hall was their fault, the poor dears. ;) :rolleyes:

Next you'll be accusing the Kennedys, Rockerfellers, Fords, Du Ponts and other successful immigrants of naughtiness. :shock:

Shame on you! ;)

Nickdfresh
09-12-2008, 01:15 PM
Typical!

Now you're going to get stuck into the Irish, like everyone else does. :rolleyes: ;)

Like Tammany Hall was their fault, the poor dears. ;) :rolleyes:

Next you'll be accusing the Kennedys, Rockerfellers, Fords, Du Ponts and other successful immigrants of naughtiness. :shock:

Shame on you! ;)

Ha! The Irish Mob and perhaps the Jewish Mob were perhaps the only truly "American" organized gangsters that did not have an expressly organized criminal element in their home countries. The Irish were too far removed and the Jews didn't have a country. But these mobsters were actually incorporated into the ethnic Italian mafia, then supplanted...

But I don't know if you South Asians and Euros know this, but the stereotypical US police officer as shown in a 1940s vintage cartoon or film typically had an Irish accent. Because police work in the mid to late 1800s was dangerous and the Irish were the only ones desperate/dumb enough to do it...

Nickdfresh
09-12-2008, 01:19 PM
In any case, the knock on the Russian Mafia that operate largely in New York City or LA is that they're so problematic because they're so smart. Many Russian gangsters supposedly have PhDs or were ex-KGB/military making them highly trained and skilled criminals. In any case, they keep beating up our Russian import NHL hockey players who respectfully decline gangster's generous offers to take a percentage of their million dollar salaries off their hands....

Rising Sun*
09-12-2008, 01:24 PM
But I don't know if you South Asians and Euros know this, but the stereotypical US police officer as shown in a 1940s vintage cartoon or film typically had an Irish accent. Because police work in the mid to late 1800s was dangerous and the Irish were the only ones desperate/dumb enough to do it...

Yes, we know it from those films.

The Irish cop was a good man but true, although with a penchant for helping himself to apples. :D

Nickdfresh
09-12-2008, 01:34 PM
I think you had your own "Irish Coppers?" And after reading the Wiki on "Mafia," your own Sicilian/Italian mobsters...:)

Rising Sun*
09-12-2008, 01:37 PM
Actually, more seriously, America followed the pattern we had here, where the bottom level Jews and Irish elevated themselves through education and, in the case of the Irish, local government.

My father was half Irish and rose well above his likely station because the Christian Brothers, as part of a policy designed by Archbishop Mannix of fierce Irish and anti-English heritage, schooled boys to get into the public service. My father did rather better than that and got a university scholarship when university was reserved for the select few and his parents could never have hoped to be able to afford the university fees.

In America and Australia Jews tended to go into business and the Irish, as intended by a conscious program by the Christian Brothers and others under Archbishop Mannix's tutelage, went into public administration.

So that even twenty years ago there was a public office here which had names like Mannix, Doherty, Murphy, and sundry other Irish Catholic names. Now they're just as likely to be Indian, Pakistani, or Arabic names.

Rising Sun*
09-12-2008, 01:47 PM
I think you had your own "Irish Coppers?" And after reading the Wiki on "Mafia," your own Sicilian/Italian mobsters...:)


Mate, we have such a spectacularly disgusting collection of multi-racial shit down here that anyone who isn't wearing spray tan and sunglasses on their empty skull looks out of place.

Oooops! :shock:

Sorry! Given the intent of anti-discrimination laws, I meant that in a non-discriminatory way which can't offend anyone wanting to deny that my country is being steadily ****ed over by people of swarthy appearance with an unhealthy affinity with knives and so on. :(

Kato
09-12-2008, 01:54 PM
The Russian oligarchs and others get capitalism just fine. Only they're operating like the American robber barons a century ago, who founded the magnificent American economy which ****s up the rest of the world with shit like moronic sub-prime mortgage lending. I don't see why the Russians shouldn't be allowed the opportunity to **** up the rest of the world by emulating the practices which made America great. Sauce for the goose, and all that.


Some Russian oligarchs episodically resembled American robber barons only in the early and mid 1990s.
Today Russian oligarchs resemble old Russian nobility that received lands and Russian slave-serfs from tsar and got bound to serve to the tsar regime.The modern Russian capitalism is absolutely different from the American one at any stage of its history, it is close to the Asian tradition.
Any Russian oligarch somehow neglecting the existing Russian practices will lose all his assets and status in Russia.

Kato
09-12-2008, 02:16 PM
A nation which managed to win the space race against America is not second rate by any standards.

It was the Soviet Union but not the Russian Federation. The level of the Russian Federation is close to the one of Pakistan, Brazil and Mexico rather than to the one of the US.



So, morons like Sarah Palin saying that the US should go to war with Russia over Georgia couldn't do anything to alter the conflict between Russia and the rest of the world?


The Russian federation still exists only because morons like Sarah Palin opposed the idea of the disintegration of the USSR and later the Russian federation.



Russian industry managed to put a dog and a man into space with considerably less resources than the Americans who at the time were fully occupied blowing up their rockets on their launch pads.

The Soviet one. You speak about a different state

Kato
09-12-2008, 02:41 PM
In any case, the knock on the Russian Mafia that operate largely in New York City or LA is that they're so problematic because they're so smart. Many Russian gangsters supposedly have PhDs or were ex-KGB/military making them highly trained and skilled criminals.

The thing is that there are no ethnic Russian Maphia. Unfortunately, persons with true PHDs go to the US just to work honestly and ex-KGB employees live very well at home.

B5N2KATE
09-13-2008, 01:03 AM
Look, I'm not going to sink to political correctness. Russian business practice has been sub-standard for many decades. Further, if this backwardness has allowed better competitors to muscle in on "their" markets, then whom do we blame?

All I know is, when it comes to supply of raw material, Russian business caters to it's own needs first.....we all have to do things their way, or they cut off the supply.....DESPOTISM.

Russia achieved their Space program at the expense of other areas in the economy....national prestige over the wellbeing of the people, and it took a more than significant proportion of their gross national product, unlike the U.S. that could run the Space Race, maintain a military industry AND an overseas export market without sacrificing things at home....NATIONAL PRESTIGE FIRST AS ALWAYS,

When you spend 20% of what your country makes on your armed services for the same National prestige, there is something dreadfully wrong......U.S. consumption for the same reasons resulted in no more than 5% expenditure......America could afford a Space Program, Russia could not....

As for putting a dog in Space....it DIED for the lack of a return voyage.....at least the American chimps were returned to Earth......

Russia wants to be taken seriously as a world power......we only take them seriously as DESPOTS.....something that has not chamged in this modern period....

As for Australia's dismissive treatment by Macarthur et al, we are big enough here to ignore stuff like that and get on with it....not worried about "National Prestige"....maybe 300 million Russians should take a leaf out of our political book.

When I meet a group of Russian oil workers that can work unsupervised, Ill let you know....

32Bravo
09-13-2008, 02:39 AM
Well, to be fair, the US has rarely had a modern organized crime force that was homegrown. Most of it was transplanted from other nations whose gangsters were able to come here to enjoy of lax, corrupt police completely ignorant typically WASP police in the 1800s, until the Irish took over the job here.

La Cosa Nostra would be the prime example. Most sophisticated Organized criminals came from Sicily, and then later -other ethnic criminals followed the immigrants such as the Asian Triad gangs, of the El Salvadorian M18...



I'm sure you are correct, Nick, but does that make any difference? It was in the US that they were able to reach their full potential.



Hoover may have been a tail-pipe commando, a "switcher," or an enormously repressed, but perverted hetero. But the one thing that is sure is that he had the US's largest collection of pornography of all stripes from confiscations and raids, and personal access to nearly all of it!

But the idea that the Mob was "blackmailing him" is probably off-base.

Disagree, the idea of him being blackmailed explains his lack of action against them far more than the fear of corruption. But your opinion is as good as mine.




The Untouchables were not with the FBI, they were under the Treasury Dept. I believe, and were investigating rum-running. But Al Capone was brought down by the IRS for tax fraud, not Eliot Ness or the FBI...

Thank you for that, Nick, I'm sure I knew it really. I'll stick with my previous comments.

By the way, once JFK was assassinated, RFK was rendered impotent and Hoover continued on his sleazy way.

Sleaze happens every where, not just in Kremlin, my reason for my comments were merely point out that no country is whiter than white, and America n particular, and not just for the sake of Yank-bashing...C'est la vie!

32Bravo
09-13-2008, 02:49 AM
All I know is, when it comes to supply of raw material, Russian business caters to it's own needs first.....we all have to do things their way, or they cut off the supply.....DESPOTISM.


Only in Russia, hey? Those naughty Ruskies ought to be brought to book and given a good ticking off, that's what I say.



Russia achieved their Space program at the expense of other areas in the economy....national prestige over the wellbeing of the people, and it took a more than significant proportion of their gross national product, unlike the U.S. that could run the Space Race, maintain a military industry AND an overseas export market without sacrificing things at home....NATIONAL PRESTIGE FIRST AS ALWAYS,

Absolutely! National prestige first? My goodness that would never happen in the West.

I now see the error of my ways. I have you to thank, Bravo5November2, and I have come to like you.

Please allow me to stay in the West and I'll promise to close the door. In fact, I'll do anything for you, on my knees if you so wish, but please, I made need some oiling.

By the way. I was always taught that that WW1 was 1914-1918 and WW2 was 1939-1945. Is this wrong??

32Bravo
09-13-2008, 03:02 AM
The Soviet one. You speak about a different state

Take your point on national identity. But wasn't the USSR driven by Russia and Russians, in the main, and the remainder really there for form?

B5N2KATE
09-13-2008, 03:47 AM
Bravo.....

I am echoing the complaints from unfortunates that have had to deal with Russian business interests.....the story is always the same.

When these people can learn that we don't care a toss in the west for their country, and that all we really care about is good business affairs, with something in it for EVERYONE, then the big Russian companies may acquire a veneer of legitimacy...

Until then, its a Legislative Assembly elected by no-one, enacting archaic policy that dissappeared with the Cold War....

Russians just can't come to terms with the fact that the Cold War is OVER.....and they came out on the short end of the stick.....now, pick yourselves up and start making MONEY again......don't live in an idealized past.

As long as Russians have faith in themselves to do this, things may well turn for the better.....but I'm not going to stand by and watch them blame "Rich Americans", as Chevan does, for their plight...

Maybe they need a change of Government by Revolution once again....you would have thought that Gorbechovian Perestroika would have been enough of a change....needs more

32Bravo
09-13-2008, 04:34 AM
Bravo.....

I am echoing the complaints from unfortunates that have had to deal with Russian business interests.....the story is always the same.

When these people can learn that we don't care a toss in the west for their country, and that all we really care about is good business affairs, with something in it for EVERYONE, then the big Russian companies may acquire a veneer of legitimacy...

Until then, its a Legislative Assembly elected by no-one, enacting archaic policy that dissappeared with the Cold War....

Russians just can't come to terms with the fact that the Cold War is OVER.....and they came out on the short end of the stick.....now, pick yourselves up and start making MONEY again......don't live in an idealized past.

As long as Russians have faith in themselves to do this, things may well turn for the better.....but I'm not going to stand by and watch them blame "Rich Americans", as Chevan does, for their plight...

Maybe they need a change of Government by Revolution once again....you would have thought that Gorbechovian Perestroika would have been enough of a change....needs more

I have every confidence that you are right.

It's just that you frame your arguments with such sweeping, double standards, as if the rest of the world is squeaky clean.

Chevan, is a victim of cold war propaganda, but he's a nice chap.

Are you not demonstrating the same traits when you become bombastic about the moral superiority of we Westerners?

32Bravo
09-13-2008, 04:45 AM
Hoover may have been a tail-pipe commando, a "switcher,"




By the way, Nick. Did you not know that it is considered blasphemous to speak of Commandos in that way.

After all, God is a Commando!...he failed 'P' Company! ;)