The warsaw Rising Of 1944

[mike M.]

Yesterday marked the 64th anniversary of the start of the Warsaw Rising of 1944, the biggest operation organised and executed by a partisan organisation in WWII.

In the Uprising, lasting 63 days, 18,000 insurgents were killed and 25,000 wounded. Losses among the civilians amounted to 180,000 people. Much of the capital was razed to the ground and left in ruins.

The battle began on August 1, 1944, as part of a nation-wide rebellion, Operation Tempest. and was intended to last for only a few days until the Soviet Army reached the city and assisted in liberating it. But while the Soviet advance stopped short on the eastern side of the Vistula River, the Polish resistance against Nazi forces continued for over two months, only to finish in defeat on October 2.

For 63 days the insurgents conducted an uneven and heroic battle, the aim of which was an independent Poland, free from both Nazi occupation and Soviet domination. The huge losses borne by the Poles in the uprising make, even today, the events of the Warsaw Rising of 1944 a hotly debated event.

Many involved in the uprising felt it important to liberate Warsaw before the Red Army arrived, so as to stress Polish sovereignty. On August 1, 1944 some 40 to 50,000 insurgents started their heroic struggle, poorly armed with only one in four carrying a gun. By mid-September 1944 Soviet forces had reached a point a few hundred metres from the city, across the Vistula River, but they made no further headway during the Uprising. Many historians accuse Stalin of letting the Nazis crush the Polish forces before entering Warsaw, so making the domination of Poland easier for the Soviets.

Hearing about the outbreak of the insurrection in Warsaw SS chief Heinrich Himmler gave instructions "that every inhabitant should be killed" and that Warsaw should "be razed to the ground" as an example to the rest of Europe under German occupation. And so tens of thousands of defenceless civilians were slaughtered week after week. One by one, the city’s districts were destroyed as Soviet troops watched from across the river. Poland’s Western allies expressed regret, but decided that they cannot do anything.

After eventual capitulation of the uprising 500,000 people were expelled from the city, which itself was reduced to a pile of rubble.The Warsaw Uprising was probably the largest single operation organised and executed by any partisan organisation in WWII. As an attempt to achieve its goals, the uprising was a terrible failure, but it was also a remarkable success in showing the courage and the dedication of the Polish nation. (jm)

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/news/?id=88243

[flamethrowerguy]

This is a very interesting issue and it's important to recall these incidents over and over again on the anniversaries.
Unfortunately the previous report comes across as a little lopsided to me. The "uneven and heroic battle" started with the killing of "nazi forces" -which seems to mean "regular german troops"- in their leisure time. Another highlight of the heroic struggle was the massacre of wounded occupants of the german main casualty station in Warsaw and its azerbaijanian voluntary helpers during the first hours of the uprising
No misunderstanding, it was the natural right of the poles to uprise and the horrifying consequences for the civil population of Warsaw are well-known to me and deeply condemned, but let's see both sides of the coin.
Somehow it's a personal matter to me for my granduncle Willi E. -high decorated sergeant of the cavalry platoon of Infantry-Regiment 464- was killed during the Warsaw uprising on September 1st 1944.

From the official war grave-register:
Zum Gedenken

Nachname: E.
Vorname: Willi
Dienstgrad: Unteroffizier
Geburtsdatum: 19.05.1914
Geburtsort: Mariadorf
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 01.09.1944
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Warschau
Willi Esser konnte im Rahmen unserer Umbettungsarbeiten nicht geborgen werden.

[Chevan]

Somehow it's a personal matter to me for my granduncle Arnold E. -high decorated sergeant of the cavalry platoon of Infantry-Regiment 464- was killed during the Warsaw uprising on September 1st 1944.

.

As i know from other your post your granduncle Arnold E have sinked in 1941.
The inquiry office of the Wehrmacht regrets to confirm to you that Oberschütze Arnold E., born 1920 in M., member of the Heer, after his capture on November 23rd 1941 in Sghifet en Nbeidat (Africa) drowned on a sea transport operated by the English from Tobruk (Libya, the author) to Egypt
How many granduncles with name Arnold E have you sir?

[flamethrowerguy]

As i know from other your post your granduncle Arnold E have sinked in 1941.

How many granduncles with name Arnold E have you sir?

Sorry, Chevan, typo of mine. It was not my grand-uncle Arnold in Warsaw but his brother Willi. I'll edit the post, sorry about that.
Please look here for further information (if interested):
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/album.php?albumid=14&pictureid=209

[Chevan]

no problems mate.

[ptimms]

I had the pleasure to be in Warsaw on the anniversary day in 1992. I saw the vets parades and the commerations very moving.

[flamethrowerguy]

Cool, ptimms. I have been to Warsaw in 1993 and 1994. It's a great town, by then it was already like any other western major city talking of fast food restaurants and all. I have been to the ghetto memorial and watched the changing of the guards. Very impressive, I could still punch myself for not making photos!!!

[ptimms]

I've some non digital photo's somewhere. We did the ghetto, the old town and other sites then when down to Krakow and out to Auschwitz and Birkenau. Very sobering. I looked up about the 253rd Infantry and your relative must have been through some pretty horrible stuff.

[flamethrowerguy]

I've some non digital photo's somewhere. We did the ghetto, the old town and other sites then when down to Krakow and out to Auschwitz and Birkenau. Very sobering. I looked up about the 253rd Infantry and your relative must have been through some pretty horrible stuff.

Unfortunately we didn't go so far to the south in Poland, we stayed up north in Masuria, the Allenstein (Olsztyn) area griefing about this wonderful landscaspe "we" lost due to WW2.
I have to check on 253rd infantry as well since it was a division from my home area, the Rhineland.

[Kovalski]

Unfortunately we didn't go so far to the south in Poland, we stayed up north in Masuria, the Allenstein (Olsztyn) area griefing about this wonderful landscaspe "we" lost due to WW2.


You asked for it, mate ;)
Maybe if your ancestors didn't vote for Hitler, it would be a German land now. But they preferred a dream of "Nordic Race" :)

[ptimms]

This is relevant why ?

[flamethrowerguy]

You asked for it, mate ;)
Maybe if your ancestors didn't vote for Hitler, it would be a German land now. But they preferred a dream of "Nordic Race" :)

Right, my ancestors did. So I didn't ask for it. I wouldn't want to have it back either. Integration of the GDR made Germany almost bankrupt!:shock:

[Chevan]

You asked for it, mate ;)
Maybe if your ancestors didn't vote for Hitler, it would be a German land now. But they preferred a dream of "Nordic Race" :)

But if Stalin did not persist , this land never be Polish mate, even if the flamethrowerguy's ancestors voted for Hitler.
Becouse someone in post-war Poland dreamed about "Great Communistic future":)

[Nickdfresh]

But if Stalin did not persist , this land never be Polish mate, even if the flamethrowerguy's ancestors voted for Hitler.

Um, Hitler wasn't "elected." So please do not sustain mythology...

His relatives no more "voted for Hitler" than yours voted for that bloody prick Stalin...

Becouse someone in post-war Poland dreamed about "Great Communistic future":)


Yes, it was so nice of Stalin to help Hitler invade Poland, massacre 40,000 of her officers, then hoist an unpopular minority political movement on the Poles as a government...

[Chevan]

Um, Hitler wasn't "elected." So please do not sustain mythology...

Me does sustain mythology?
Have you read the original posts of Kovalski and flamethrowerguy?
So why do you pick me?

His relatives no more "voted for Hitler" than yours voted for that bloody prick Stalin...

mr flamethrowerguy , can you enlighten our common friend Nickdfresh - what did you mean when wrote the "Right, my ancestors did" please?
Was the election of 1933 in GErmany legal?
Or Hitler has just cuptured the Reichstag just like the Bolshevics captured the power in Russia via the civil war?

Yes, it was so nice of Stalin to help Hitler invade Poland, massacre 40,000 of her officers, then hoist an unpopular minority political movement on the Poles as a government...
But this unpopular movenment started very popular poll - do you wish to join the some former German territories to Poland in 1946?
So called "Three Yes poll". Kovalski know what i mean.
And most of the Poles said Yes to this "Unpopular movenment".

[Chevan]

Right, my ancestors did. So I didn't ask for it. I wouldn't want to have it back either. Integration of the GDR made Germany almost bankrupt!:shock:

Do you seriously think you would not join your closest Kins?

[flamethrowerguy]

Well, in german historiography January 30th 1933 is known as the "day of the national socialists' seizure of power" and it can not be described as an election in a democratic sense.
If my ancestors voted for the NSDAP or supported the nazis? I don't know actually. Since even my grandparents have still been kids when the nazis took over I had to ask my great-grandparents who of course are long gone.
Maybe they did, maybe not. The Rhineland -the part of Germany we're living- was not really known as nazi-friendly, that's a fact. People here were strict Catholic what made them decline nazi ideologies for the major part.

[Chevan]

Well, in german historiography January 30th 1933 is known as the "day of the national socialists' seizure of power" and it can not be described as an election in a democratic sense.
.

Did somebody deny the resault of "non-democratic" election or at least dispute it in Germany or outside?

[Nickdfresh]

Me does sustain mythology?
Have you read the original posts of Kovalski and flamethrowerguy?
So why do you pick me?

Then attack his stupidity, not his nationality...

mr flamethrowerguy , can you enlighten our common friend Nickdfresh - what did you mean when wrote the "Right, my ancestors did" please?
Was the election of 1933 in GErmany legal?
Or Hitler has just cuptured the Reichstag just like the Bolshevics captured the power in Russia via the civil war?...

Hitler was appointed chancellor in complex deal. The Nazis never even had the majority.

[Nickdfresh]

Well, in german historiography January 30th 1933 is known as the "day of the national socialists' seizure of power" and it can not be described as an election in a democratic sense.
If my ancestors voted for the NSDAP or supported the nazis? I don't know actually. Since even my grandparents have still been kids when the nazis took over I had to ask my great-grandparents who of course are long gone.
Maybe they did, maybe not. The Rhineland -the part of Germany we're living- was not really known as nazi-friendly, that's a fact. People here were strict Catholic what made them decline nazi ideologies for the major part.


Unfortunately, your ancestors also failed at creating a viable poltrical opposition to the Nazis when Hitler started transforming Germany into a totalitarian state...

[Chevan]

Then attack his stupidity, not his nationality...

And where did me attack nationality of Kovalski?
Nick you are getting too biased at me;)Don't you?

Hitler was appointed chancellor in complex deal. The Nazis never even had the majority.
Something promt me you are not correct.,
Nazy got a absolute majority in political life after they have finaly fihished the Communist party of GErmany.
No other political power can't compete with Nazis since the 1931.
The fact that nobody n GErmany can't creat an vital opposition just proves this fact- the Nazis was ONLy the political power in Germany at that time.
The President MERELY had no OTHER choice( although he didn't wish) as to appoint the Hitler as a chancellor.

[flamethrowerguy]

Unfortunately, your ancestors also failed at creating a viable poltrical opposition to the Nazis when Hitler started transforming Germany into a totalitarian state...

No excuse.

[Kovalski]

Um, Hitler wasn't "elected." So please do not sustain mythology...


Nick, could you clarify something for me?
What "non-democratic" mechanism allowed Hitler to get the majority in Reichstag on 5th of March 1933 and become a chancellor on 30th of January 1933?

What "mythology" are you talking about?

[B5N2KATE]

I certainly would not call the Polish "Home Army" a "Partisan" organisation.

They were national troops in the service of the nation.

German commanders at Warsaw recognised this distinction at the time, possibly, it is said, with one eye on possible postwar court cases..

And for sheer guts, nothing beats the Warsaw uprising of April-June 1943. The various "Combat Organisations" (ZZB, ZZW to name the largest) had little or no outside help, few resources, and only TREBLINKA to look forward to if captured.

Not enough is said of Warsaw in 1943....Fine example of Jews that didn't just "toe the line", or be lead away to cattle-cars with barely a whisper of protest, as some like to portray the situation in Poland.

Ordinary Polish people didn't want to know at the time.......their turn would come in 1944, but in 1943, they just sat back and watched while Warsaw Ghetto men women and children fought on against a situation that got more and more desperate.

[B5N2KATE]

AND, just for the pundits above, the National Socialist Government was APPOINTED by Hindenburg. Advisors to Hindenburg felt that Adolphus Hitler was "just a politician", here one day and gone with the electoral will of the people. The entire reason for this situation was the very fact that a goverment with a majority of seats in the Reichstag was just not possible, so the President stepped in to end the crisis, and to prevent left inspired revolution from transforming Germany from a defeated nation to a nation in the throes of civil war...

So, you could say quite rightly that the NSDAP were, in fact...ELECTED...

THIS IS NO MYTH....

[Chevan]

Ordinary Polish people didn't want to know at the time.......their turn would come in 1944, but in 1943, they just sat back and watched while Warsaw Ghetto men women and children fought on against a situation that got more and more desperate.

Do you wish to say that Polish resistence have to support the JEwish uprisinng of 1943, taking a mortal risk to be killed just like the poor jewish getto's civils?
But what was chance to win the uprising in 1943?Have you thought about it?
If together with 50 000 of jews the SS would have killed the , say 200 000, of poles?

[Nickdfresh]

Nick, could you clarify something for me?
What "non-democratic" mechanism allowed Hitler to get the majority in Reichstag on 5th of March 1933 and become a chancellor on 30th of January 1933?

What "mythology" are you talking about?

The non-democratic mechanism would be that he was appointed by Hindenburg after the Germans failed to form a unity government. I think the prevailing thought was that he would be somewhat less radical in power and would also be marginalized by other factions within the gov't. But yes, the Nazis were the single biggest party in the Reichstag...

The "myth" I was referring too was that Hitler was directly elected into the position. He wasn't, nor did his policies in anyway represent the majority will of the Germans. He still needed the burning Reichstag to do that...

[B5N2KATE]

Warsaw in 1943 waas not about winning and losing.....the result of the contest was not in any doubt.

The issue in 1943 was resistence, rather than being lead away to a fate six feet under. Many European Jews in Poland got short shrift from aryan Poles. A lot of exploitation of these same Jewish people was, in fact, carried out by aryan Poles.

When Art Spiegelman released his cartoon biography of his father (Maus I & II), Art drew the Polish as pigs for this reason alone. Germans were drawn as cats, the natural enemy of mice (Jews), with American soldiers wonderfully portrayed as Dogs in a nice reference to their wartime nickname for themselves of "dogfaces". Vladek Speigelman was damning in his criticism of the conduct of Polish nationals towards Jews, commenting that many Poles would trick these Jews out of their last zloty. This was confirmed by a ghetto fighter (David Landau) in his book "Caged", speaking of the same exploitation by Polish nationals.

Poland has a very patchy career record of conduct.....not surprising, I suppose. The country was divided between the Reich and Soviet Union, after all, splitting the people into many factions. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was their chance to make amends for this exploitation, and they sat back and watched it come to pass.

Sometimes, it matters not whether you win or lose....it's how you play the game.

[Kovalski]

Kate, please remind me which nation's citizens are the biggest group recognized and honoured by the "Yad Vashem"???
French?
Dutch?
Russian?
or maybe Ukrainian?

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski ;)

[Chevan]

Warsaw in 1943 waas not about winning and losing.....the result of the contest was not in any doubt.

Any uprising shall be planned to be succesfull- in other way this is just the ADD a hell of the suffering to the civils.
The Getto uprising of 1943 was not planned, it was spontan, but anyway it have no SHACNES to be succesfull.
Although it was ( many of jews has escaped from Getto and have saved thier lifes.
But you can't demand from Local population to sacrifice of live of their families to support the ALIEN uprising.That was started without the will of polish resistence.

The issue in 1943 was resistence, rather than being lead away to a fate six feet under. Many European Jews in Poland got short shrift from aryan Poles. A lot of exploitation of these same Jewish people was, in fact, carried out by aryan Poles.

True
But not just "aryan poles" have ben colloborated with Nacis - but also Baltic , Ukrainian even russian.
In any occuped eastern territory the local police have been participated in Germans terror.
The collobaration is the separate problem - it existed everywhere . You can't blame the local civils in Poland for that some of their "aryans' shoted the jews.

When Art Spiegelman released his cartoon biography of his father (Maus I & II), Art drew the Polish as pigs for this reason alone. Germans were drawn as cats, the natural enemy of mice (Jews), .

That't really funny , keeping in mind that Nacis propogand drew the Jews as a ...Rats:)
I mean the mice is very close to that what Nacis meant.

Poland has a very patchy career record of conduct.....not surprising, I suppose. The country was divided between the Reich and Soviet Union, after all, splitting the people into many factions. The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was their chance to make amends for this exploitation, and they sat back and watched it come to pass.

I have no any idea what do you mean as "make amends" for Jews in Getto by Poles.
I do understand the Propogandic points of Ukrainain Nationalsits who blamed the Jews in Holodomore and associated the Soviet power as a Jewish power .
You probably heard in Ukraine Nacis had organize dthe "revenge " compain agains Jews.- with wide participation of Ukrainain police and voluntares . They publically executed the handreds of jews per day.
Their "amends" have been described by Nazy propogand as a "retrebution for bolshevics-jewish crimes"
But what "jewish crimes" was in Poland?


Sometimes, it matters not whether you win or lose....it's how you play the game.

Agree.
But considering the Nasiz habit to execute the members of family as a "bandits and partisans"- it can be very danger for Polish resistence.
The Germans simply can eleminated all of them in 1943 when the situation in front was still disputable.

[Chevan]

Kate, please remind me which nation's citizens are the biggest group recognized and honoured by the "Yad Vashem"???
French?
Dutch?
Russian?
or maybe Ukrainian?

Oh come on mate.
The answer is simple - the Jews
dutch , russian and Ukrainian.

[flamethrowerguy]

Actually it honors the non-jews, the "Righteous Among the Nations". I'd guess the biggest group would be the poles.

[Kovalski]

One link from "wiki" about Poles and Ghetto Uprising:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

Check the "Polish support" section:
"Polish support

Support from outside the Ghetto was limited, but Polish Resistance units from Armia Krajowa (AK) (the Home Army) and Polish Communist Gwardia Ludowa (GL) (the People's Guard) attacked German sentry units near the ghetto walls and attempted to smuggle weapons, ammunition, and other materials and instructions into the ghetto. Polish resistance also provided the insurgents with badly needed weapons and ammunitions from its meager stocks. AK also disseminated information and appeals to help the Jews in the ghetto, both in Poland and by way of radio transmissions to the Allies. Several ŻOB commanders and fighters escaped through the sewers with assistance from the Poles.

One Polish unit from AK, the National Security Corps (Państwowy Korpus Bezpieczeństwa), under the command of Henryk Iwański "Bystry", fought inside the Ghetto along with ŻZW. Subsequently, both groups retreated together (including 34 Jewish fighters) to the so-called "Aryan side". Although Iwański's action is the most well-known rescue mission, it was only one of many actions undertaken by the Polish resistance to help the Jews. In one attack, three units of AK under command kpt. Józef Pszenny "Chwacki" tried to breach the Ghetto walls with explosives, but the Germans defeated this action. AK and GL engaged the Germans between April 19 and April 23 at six different locations outside the ghetto walls, shooting at German sentries and positions and in one case attempting to blow-up a gate.

Participation of the Polish underground in the uprising was confirmed by a report of the German commander Jürgen Stroop. He wrote that his forces were "...permanently under gun fire behind the ghetto. It means from the Aryan side .. When we invaded the Ghetto for the first time, the Jews and the Polish bandits succeeded in repelling the participating units, including tanks and armored cars, by a well-prepared concentration of fire." He described Iwański's action: "The main Jewish battle group, mixed with Polish bandits, had already retired during the first and second day to the so-called Muranowski Square. There, it was reinforced by a considerable number of Polish bandits."

Of course, there were people who didn't care what would happen with the Jews inside the Ghetto. I don't deny that fact. There were also people that were getting the rewards from the Germans for deconspiring the Jews, so-called "Szmalcownicy". I assume that this kind of people are everywhere, not only among Poles, they are even among Jews (Kapos in death camps?).
I would really appreciate some more reading you do Kate, before you write such posts:

"I certainly would not call the Polish "Home Army" a "Partisan" organisation.
They were national troops in the service of the nation.
German commanders at Warsaw recognised this distinction at the time, possibly, it is said, with one eye on possible postwar court cases..
And for sheer guts, nothing beats the Warsaw uprising of April-June 1943. The various "Combat Organisations" (ZZB, ZZW to name the largest) had little or no outside help, few resources, and only TREBLINKA to look forward to if captured.
Not enough is said of Warsaw in 1943....Fine example of Jews that didn't just "toe the line", or be lead away to cattle-cars with barely a whisper of protest, as some like to portray the situation in Poland.
Ordinary Polish people didn't want to know at the time.......their turn would come in 1944, but in 1943, they just sat back and watched while Warsaw Ghetto men women and children fought on against a situation that got more and more desperate."

And remember that Polish were dying while helping the insurgents in the Ghetto in 1943.

[B5N2KATE]

I've got an illustrated copy of Stroops report, thanks very much...

I've even taken excerpts from Mr.Landau's book and compared them side by side on a daily basis with the Brigadefuhrer's report itself....go to World War Two Talk to see the results. It reveals that Stroop was lyinh through his teeth about his own losses, and for the first ten days of the Uprising, felt the issue was more than a little in doubt. Landau himself describes the lack of help generally from Poles on the "arayan" side of Warsaw, so you can take it up with his daughters website....I would tend to believe Mr.Landau's descriptions of the fighting than anything the rest of them had to say put together...

Maybe YOU should read wider than Polish sources.....

The truth of the misconduct of certain sections of WW2 Polish society is there for all to see.....

Many recruits from the DIRLEWANGER unit that served in '44 Warsaw were RENEGADE POLES.....

Cop that!

[Kovalski]

Many recruits from the DIRLEWANGER unit that served in '44 Warsaw were RENEGADE POLES.....


Ouch!
and now you have given a final proof that you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what you are talking about.
I'm not even going to provide you any sources about Dirlewanger's brigade, because there no sense. You will not understand them.
Please, for your own good, stop making a fool from yourself!

[ptimms]

B5N2Kate,
What is your source for this statement."Many recruits from the DIRLEWANGER unit that served in '44 Warsaw were RENEGADE POLES".

According to "The Cruel Hunters" In July-Nov 44 the unit consisted 5% Regulars, 5% poachers, 10% FOREIGN TROOPS, 40% SS and Army Penal troops and 40% Concentration camp inmates. Maclean makes no mention of any Poles ever being in the unit, let alone many ? As far as I can see the vast majority of Foreign troops were always from the occupied Soviet zone.

[B5N2KATE]

The 36th Waffengrenadier div took recruits fom many sources......the ones you describe were present on the formation of the unit itself....

Sidetrcking won't change the essentials.....Lots of people not only exploited Warsaw Jews, but did less than they could have to help them. They then accuse these same people of "not fighting back" and being lead off to camps with little or no resistence/protest.

[ptimms]

No, Those are the figures for the exact time period you are refering to, when they were formed it was different again.

On formation it was 5% Regular. 94% Poachers and 1% SS and Army Penal.

Also it was different for the 36th Waffen SS Division Dirlewanger which it was not at Warsaw during the rising. It was SS-Regiment Dirlewanger. However the Divisional organisation has no signifiacant number of Poles in either.

By the way I'm not sidetracking your statement is contradictory to my source. I've asked for you for yours and you have sidetracked. I'm still asking where the statement "Many recruits from the DIRLEWANGER unit that served in '44 Warsaw were RENEGADE POLES". comes form.

[Chevan]

I doubt that mr Kate can show any reliable sourse for his sentences.
This is so tupical for man who use to read mostly rusophobian sources, right sir?
So do you hate poles too?
Nice surprise:)
Polish resistence hardly can do something serious to help the Getto Uprising 1943, that intitialy was doomed to failure.

[Chevan]

Ouch!
and now you have given a final proof that you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what you are talking about.
I'm not even going to provide you any sources about Dirlewanger's brigade, because there no sense. You will not understand them.

Don't take it seriously.
the Dirlevanger "SS-brigade" was indeed the bunch of all-sort criminal over entire Western Europe ( mostly "voluntaries" from Germans prisons). It can be hardly named as SS at all - the discipline here was disgusting .
I vaguely guess that mr Kate probably mean the SS-Brigade Bonislav Kaminstki.
It also took active participation in "pacification" in Warsaw.The Brigade of Kaminsky was formed from Ukrainian voluntaries , who pretty much hated a poles.They commited so disgusting things in Warsaw, that even Germans were shocked.Guderian even has to demand to stop the senseless violence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_RONA_(1st _Russian)#Warsaw
So indeed we can say pretty right- The Brigade Kaminski was a RENEGADE Ukrainians.

Please, for your own good, stop making a fool from yourself!
I like when he is playing a fool:)
In other thread he was going to prove that All the Russians officers were just a crininals and "butchers".

[Kato]

It also took active participation in "pacification" in Warsaw.The Brigade of Kaminsky was formed from Ukrainian voluntaries , who pretty much hated a poles.They commited so disgusting things in Warsaw, that even Germans were shocked.Guderian even has to demand to stop the senseless violence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_RONA_(1st _Russian)#Warsaw
So indeed we can say pretty right- The Brigade Kaminski was a RENEGADE Ukrainians.


I fail to understand why Chevan made up his mind that Kaminski Brigade was manned with Ukrainians.

According to his link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminski_Brigade

Kaminski brigade is 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA (1st Russian) - an anti-partisan formation made of the people from so-called Lokot Autonomy (located in the Russian Briansk region). It was made up of Russians and some Byelorusians.

Its commander Bronislav Vladislavovich Kaminski was of Polish-German origin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronislav_Kaminski


Kaminski and his head group of men were executed after trial by Nazi court martial in Litzmannstadt(Łódź). They were tried for stealing the property of the Reich because Kaminski and his men had tried to keep the confiscated property of Poles in Warsaw for themselves.

[Chevan]

I fail to understand why Chevan made up his mind that Kaminski Brigade was manned with Ukrainians.

You have missed to understand, becouse i never told that Kaminski brigade was manned with Ukrainians.
It was actualy manned by SS:)

According to his link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaminski_Brigade

Kaminski brigade is 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA (1st Russian) - an anti-partisan formation made of the people from so-called Lokot Autonomy (located in the Russian Briansk region). It was made up of Russians and some Byelorusians.

The Kaminski Brigade was a just a small part of former RONA , mixed with "voluntaries" from Belorussia and Ukraine.
http://bka-roa.chat.ru/rona_kaminski.htm

2 августа 1944 г. в Варшаве вспыхнуло восстание, на подавление которого немцы бросили крупные силы сухопутных войск, СС и полиции. Из каждого полка РОНА было выделено по 300-400 добровольцев, которые под командованием подполковника (оберштурмбаннфю-рера СС) Фролова были введены в польскую столицу. Для Каминского и его солдат уличные бои в большом городе были непривычны, и группа РОНА несла большие потери. Это, в свою очередь, оборачивалось общим падением дисциплины, грабежами и насилием в отношении мирного населения.

So the every regiment of RONA send 300-400 of "voluntaries" to pacificate the Warsaw uprising.
Those were a real beasts who hated the Poles.
Guess who did hate poles in 1944 more then others?( after Volun 1943)
But if you wish , we can re-formulate the initial sentence - Brigade Kaminski was a RENEGADE Ukrainians, Russians and Belorussians beast who lost any human look.
You know, i don't even care about those RONA, ROA , "nazi-Cossacs" and other bastards who fought for "free Russia" .They were just a shameful traitors.
But you , seems, are not ?

[Kato]

You have missed to understand, becouse i never told that Kaminski brigade was manned with Ukrainians.
It was actualy manned by SS:)

The Kaminski Brigade was a just a small part of former RONA , mixed with "voluntaries" from Belorussia and Ukraine.
http://bka-roa.chat.ru/rona_kaminski.htm

The Kaminski Brigade was mainly manned with Russians who lived in autonomous Lokot Republic in the Russian Bryank region , later when the brigade was withdrawn to Lepel area in Belarus it was reinforced by local Belorusian volonteers.

In March 1944, the brigade was renamed Volksheer-Brigade Kaminski for a brief period, before it was absorbed as a part of the Waffen-SS in June 1944. With its transfer to the Waffen-SS, the brigade was renamed Waffen-Sturm-Brigade RONA, and Kaminski was given the rank of Waffen-Brigadeführer der SS, as the only man with such rank. Plans were made for a Russian/Byelorussian SS Division, and the structure was laid down for the 29.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr.1).



So the every regiment of RONA send 300-400 of "voluntaries" to pacificate the Warsaw uprising.
Those were a real beasts who hated the Poles.
Guess who did hate poles in 1944 more then others?( after Volun 1943)

The fact is that there were no Ukrainian SS or police units participating in the
in the crushing of the Warsaw uprising.

But if you wish , we can re-formulate the initial sentence - Brigade Kaminski was a RENEGADE Ukrainians, Russians and Belorussians beast who lost any human look.

This RONA brigade was mainly manned with Russian and some number of Belorusians. Perhaps some other nationals could be in its ranks like Polish-German Kaminski but as an exception to the general rule and the fact that it was a Russian national SS unit.

You know, i don't even care about those RONA, ROA , "nazi-Cossacs" and other bastards who fought for "free Russia" .They were just a shameful traitors.
But you , seems, are not ?

Treasons and deceits were the second nature of Stalin and his high-rank commies, their main method to seize and keep power. Bolsheviks came to power as a result of overthrowing the legitimate government in Russia and in other countries of the former tsar empire. So the term "traitor" could be applied to those who fought on behalf of the Soviets unless the German self-damaging policy in the attitude to POWs and in the relations with the nations living withing the USSR.


The appearance of RONA, ROA and "Nazi" cossacks was caused by communists' regime. There would have been much more of anti-Soviet forces enough to overthrow the Soviet government if German Eastern policy had not been short-sighted and self-damaging.

[Kovalski]

The fact is that there were no Ukrainian SS or police units participating in the
in the crushing of the Warsaw uprising.


Not true. There was an Ukrainian unit fighting in Warsaw Uprising.
So-called Ukrainian Self-Defence Legion, fighting in Czerniakow area between 15-23 of September 1944 against Home Army groups "Radoslaw" and "Kryska" and elements of 9th Inf. Div. of Polish People's Army.

[Chevan]

Not true. There was an Ukrainian unit fighting in Warsaw Uprising.
So-called Ukrainian Self-Defence Legion, fighting in Czerniakow area between 15-23 of September 1944 against Home Army groups "Radoslaw" and "Kryska" and elements of 9th Inf. Div. of Polish People's Army.

Of course mate.
If the our friend Kato finaly has opened te Wiki fro himself (thanks god he don't deny the Volun massacre any more)as a single realible sourse
This positive fact can't prevent us from the studying of the history, using the other sources, including the Polish.
We know for sure that some our "Ukrainian policemans" behaive themself as a natural beasts toward the poles, belorussians and russians.And this is not just a "Soviet propogand" as mr Kato would like to belive:)
So hardly our friend Kato has a poit that the UPA/ukrainian colloborationists didn't killed other slavs.( or even didn't pacificated the Warsaw uprising).
The "Ukrainiian" voluntaries were a very useful for nazis.
For instance we know fro sure what has done the sadly known ukrainain Wafen-SS brigade Galicia in Yougoslavia in 1944.
How they "fought against bolshevism" , slaugthering the local civils.
But this is quite other tread.

[Kato]

Of course mate.
If the our friend Kato finaly has opened te Wiki fro himself (thanks god he don't deny the Volun massacre any more)as a single realible sourse
This positive fact can't prevent us from the studying of the history, using the other sources, including the Polish.

I doubt you have studied any Polish sources. The Volyn massacre was an interethnic conflict where both sides suffered losses and none of the sides can be blamed for it alone or more than other. It is the position of both Polish and Ukrainian historians and governments that was reflected in the common official statement regarding events in Volyn adopted by both state parliaments.

[Kato]

The "Ukrainiian" voluntaries were a very useful for nazis.
For instance we know fro sure what has done the sadly known ukrainain Wafen-SS brigade Galicia in Yougoslavia in 1944.

How they "fought against bolshevism" , slaugthering the local civils.
But this is quite other tread.

Unfortunately, Mr Chevan don't even know the correct name of the unit. The was not any brigade "Galicia".

14th Grenadier Division of the Waffen SS 'Galicia' mainly fought in the Eastern front. In the end of January 1945 it participated in one of campaigns against Tito's partisans while maintaining friendly relations with Serbia's anti-communist Chetnik guerrillas. There were no proven cases or concrete evidence of war crimes commited by the members of the division. In the meantime there are a host of clear and concrete evidence of war crimes and mass murders of civilians commited by Tito's partisans that are not called in question by any sober-minded person within the former Yugoslavia and beyond today.


The Canadian "Commission of Inquiry on War Crimes" of October 1986, by the Honourable Justice Jules Deschênes concluded that

While in [POW camps in] Italy these men were screened by Soviet and British missions and neither then nor subsequently has any evidence brought to light which would suggest that any of them fought against the Western Allies or engaged in crimes against humanity. Their behaviour since they came to this country has been good and they have never indicated in any way that they are infected with any trace of Nazi ideology... From the reports of the special mission set up by the War Office to screen these men it seems clear that they volunteered to fight against the Red Army from nationalistic motives which were given greater impetus by the behaviour of the Soviet authorities during their earlier occupation of Ukraine. Although Communist propaganda has constantly attempted to depict these, like so many other refugees, as "quislings" and "war criminals" it is interesting to note that no specific charges of war crimes have been made by the Soviet or any other Government against any member of this group.

The Deschênes Commission went on to explain that:

56- The Galicia Division (14. Waffengrenadierdivision der SS [gal. #1]) should not be indicted as a group. 57- The members of Galicia Division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada. 58- Charges of war crimes of Galicia Division have never been substantiated, either in 1950 when they were first preferred, or in 1984 when they were renewed, or before this Commission. 59- Further, in the absence of evidence of participation or knowledge of specific war crimes, mere membership in the Galicia Division is insufficient to justify prosecution. 60- No case can be made against members of Galicia Division for revocation of citizenship or deportation since the Canadian authorities were fully aware of the relevant facts in 1950 and admission to Canada was not granted them because of any false representation, or fraud, or concealment of material circumstances. 61- In any event, of the 217 officers of the Galicia Division denounced by Mr. Simon Wiesenthal to the Canadian government, 187 (i.e., 86 percent never set foot in Canada, 11 have died in Canada, 2 have left for another country, no prima facie case has been established against 16 and the last one could not be located.[3]


The British Scotland Yard conducted a number of investigations about the activities of Ukrainians from Galicia Division during WWII including those denounced by Simon Wiesenthal center and found all the accusations made against the division and its members irrelevant or false. In most cases the division were accused of committing war crimes in places where it had never been.


The reality is that 14th Grenadier Division of the Waffen SS 'Galicia' were accused of nearly every other atrocity committed in the Eastern Europe by the Soviet propaganda.
As a result of it the activities of 14th Grenadier Division of the Waffen SS 'Galicia' and its members were thorougly investigated by legal authorities, independant commissions, securiy services and police of a number of countries across the world like any other unit of WWII. None of Ukrainianis who served in the divisions have been found guilty of committing any sort of crimes in WWII.


So Mr. Chevan you'd better pick up the members of some other WWII unit for accusing them of war crimes. You may search for them in the ranks of NKVD and the Red Army as there have been no comparable (at least to some extent) investigations about war crimes committed by the Soviet troops during WWII and after it in Ukraine, Baltic states, Germany and the Eastern Europe on the whole. In their search for “justice” the Soviets were eager to produce propagandistic shit. It is not my conclusion, it is the conclusion of numerous unrelated investigations about the division “Galicia” conducted in different countries in different periods of time.

[Kato]

It is interesting that our Soviet patriot Chevan is so much preoccupied with the destiny of Poles in Warsaw. Though he as a Soviet patriot should know that this uprising was not so much anti-German as anti-Soviet. The anti-commumnistic Armija Krajowa wanted to seize control over the Polish capital and near-by areas while the axis troops contained the Soviet offensive. In case of success Armija Krajowa intended to bring back the Polish pre-war government from London and restore the pre-war administration at least in the ethnic Polish territories. Of course, Stalin ordered to stop the offensive to let Wermacht and SS solve the issue. Here SS and Wermacht unintentially helped the Soviets to avoid serious complications or very probable complete loss control over the post-war Poland.

Can you imagine the zone of the Soviet influence in the eastern Europe without Poland?
It would resemble some bow surrounded by hostile states. The Soviets would have been in disadvatageous strategic position and lost control over the the Eatsern Europe much earlier if the Poles in Warsaw had succeeded. It would have been a nightmare for Soviet patriots.

[Cezar]

Hi everyone,
during 64th anniversary of Warsaw Uprising, on 9th of August was organised a reenactment which reveal people last days of July 1944 and all Uprising in Mokotów district, from 1 August to 28 September - not to 2 of October because capitulation of this district was earlier. Audience seen fighting and life during uprising like oath of new members of Armia Krajowa, funeral and even a surgery of wounded insurgent. And autentic events, like arrival of soldiers of Zgrupowanie "Radosław" through sewers afer fall of Czerniaków bridgehead (yes, they were actually coming out from sewers!), or massacre of orphans after capitulation of district. There were over 300 reenactors from all country, and even from Slovakia. It was a biggest Warsaw Uprising reenactment in history. And, there was even a German television which was filming all this!

Here you can couple of galleries from reenactment and rehersals:
http://www.czyzewski.waw.pl/galeria/categories.php?cat_id=75

http://www.czyzewski.waw.pl/galeria/categories.php?cat_id=74

http://picasaweb.google.com/krzysztof.radzikowski/9SierpniaPt1

http://picasaweb.google.com/krzysztof.radzikowski/9SierpniaPt2

http://picasaweb.google.com/krzysztof.radzikowski/9SierpniaPt3

http://jacek66.zenfolio.com/p586831210

http://picasaweb.google.com/bartlomiejagresywny01/Powstanie44

http://www.adidigit-all.com/html/Powstanie/

http://picasaweb.google.com/spadpl/Powstanie44MokotW

http://picasaweb.google.pl/mariaweronika1706/WyjCieZKanaWPrzyUlDworkowejRekonstrukcja

http://www.grh-parasol.pl/galeria08_2.html

http://picasaweb.google.pl/rozjo1/RekonstrukcjaMokotW09082008GERMASCYOPRAWCY

And couple of movies:
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=3q4gACFpUxc&feature=related

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=QiQ6XFph7rg&feature=related

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=W_RPLCwpGkc&feature=related

[ww11freak34]

i never knew this this is so interesting

[Kovalski]

I post below the pics I did last summer in Warsaw Uprising Museum.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2969.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2970.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2971.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2972.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2975.jpg

[Kovalski]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2976.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2977.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2978.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2981.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2982.jpg

[Kovalski]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2984.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2987.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2988.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2990.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2991.jpg

[Kovalski]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2992.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2993.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2997.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF2999.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3002.jpg

[Kovalski]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3004.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3005.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3006.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3007.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3008.jpg

[Kovalski]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3009.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3010.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3011.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3013.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3014.jpg

[Kovalski]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3015.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3016.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3017.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3018.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3019.jpg

[Kovalski]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3022.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3023.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3024.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3025.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3027.jpg

[Kovalski]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3028.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3029.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3030.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3031.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3032.jpg
"We are not alone" - a classic example of cruel irony of fate.

[Kovalski]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3033.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3034.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3035.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3036.jpg
"Look out! The Germans!"
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3040.jpg
"Kubus" - Kubus was a Polish WWII armoured car, made by the Home Army during the Warsaw Uprising. A single copy was built on the chassis of a Chevrolet 157 van and took part in the fights. Currently there are two copies preserved, one is the original Kubuś restored after the war and held in the Polish Army Museum, the other one is a full-scale replica built for the Warsaw Rising Museum.
source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Kubu%C5%9B?uselang=pl

[Kovalski]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/brodarito/DSCF3052.jpg
The building of so-called "PAST-a", one of the German strongholds, seized by AK troops on 19th of August 1944.
http://www.pastadlamiasta.pl/ polish version only :(