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SS Ouche-Vittes
07-28-2008, 09:35 PM
The He-280 was a private venture by Heinkel himself after making the first single jet engine powered He-178. The plane's maiden flight was on April 5th, 1941. The plane had a nose wheel instead of a conventional tail wheel because of airlift problems of the wings. The rest is from a source.


Unfortunately for The Reich, engine reliability issues, a lack of armament provision, issues with the fuel type and structural defects in the tail design all kept the system grounded, with ultimate favor being ported over to the Messerschmitt Me 262 - the aircraft that would become Germany's first jet-powered fighter. Developed as early as 1939, the He 280 saw first flight as soon as 1941 with the initial of what was to become nine total prototypes being flow. The aircraft was actually flown without engine covers on either of the two centrifugal-flow HeS 8 engines due to a critical situation with fuel gathering in the engine cowlings during flight.

The He 280 was a single-seat, twin-engine, turbojet-powered aircraft capable of speeds in excess of 550 miles per hour. Looking very much like the Me 262 that it would replace, the He 280 series mounted the twin HeS 8 turbojets under each low-mounted monoplane wing system. The tail system offered up a unique twin-fin/twin-rudder design in the tail section. The pilot sat just forward of the main wing roots with good visibility forward, above and to the sides. Standard armament was to become an array of 6 x MG 151 20mm cannons though only three such weapons ever armed one system. A powered-tricycle landing gear was one of the other notable design achievements.

A total of nine prototype examples would ever be fielded, each with varying powerplants as needed. The He 280 V1 became the first aircraft ever to feature a bail-out by ejection seat as the controls had frozen on the pilot, forcing his evacuation. The He 280 V4 saw the system fitted with 6 x pulsejets whilst the He 280 V5 and He 280 V6 would be the first aircraft in the series fitted with the 3 x 20mm cannon armament. The He 280 V7 prototype model would later become a glider for high-speed aerodynamic research and the He 280 V8 would be designed with a "V" type tail unit instead of the twin fin "T" setup.



Had the problems of the He-280 been resolved the Germans would of had a maneuverable dog fighter compared to the Me-262.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Ohain_USAF_He_280_page71.jpg

Panzerknacker
07-28-2008, 10:54 PM
I think the only real advantage that the He-280 could provide over the Messer me-262 was ...it could be ready for combat earlier, let say mid-1943.

They dont needed a dogfighter, they needed a bomber killer.

SS Ouche-Vittes
07-29-2008, 09:36 PM
I agree with the bomber killer part, but it is more maneuverable than an FW-190A. It could of won the Battle of Britain as an escort fighter for the German workhorse He-111. Remember, ME-262s that were shot down were shot by maneuverable fighters that cut into their big turns. With the earlier He-280 it could turn hard and speed back onto the tail of enemy fighters like the Spitfire or the P51d. And with R4M rockets it would of devastated any American sorties over Germany. When Britain surrenders then Hitler could move his vastly needed units to the Russian front hopefully kicking their until they surrender. Then he could spread his Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe all over Europe. And with time he could increase his armies size and skill with volunteers, his industrial might increases: producing transportation vehicles and weapons at an good rate. Germany would be then very economically successful. And then hitlar would blitz the US, even though they are expecting war, and pour in weapons and men into the US and capturing the US in 1 month with the help of Italy and Japan forcing the US to fight on three fronts and Canada would be captured so that no US forces could escape to safety.

This is just a crazy scenario i thought of!

Major Walter Schmidt
07-30-2008, 01:25 AM
US in 1 month with the help of Italy and Japan forcing the US to fight on three fronts and Canada would be captured so that no US forces could escape to safety.
I wouldnt be so sure of that:D

Librarian
07-30-2008, 03:18 AM
I think that there is certain ammount of truth in your previous statement, honorable Mr. Ouche-Vittes. Numerous examples of unsuccessful German bomber-intercepting operations during the WW2 are clearly indicating that incredibly agile and fast Allied fighters were the main reason why German counter-measures actually were ineffective. Miserable destiny of the ZG 1, for example, have clearly demonstrated that although completely obsolete Bf 110 was completely capable to eliminate a complete formation of the B 24’s (April 2nd, 1944) without a single loss from the returnig 0.50 inch MG fire, Allied fighters were the only reason why otherwise successful attacks of the Luftwaffe against US heavy bomber formations were completely hopeless – when fighter cover worked properly not only that every bomber returned safely, but also only a couple of fortunate Bf 110s survived (June 27th, 1944)!

Evidently, some kind of a highly proficient dogfighter, capable to engage and completely suppress protecting activity of the Allied fighters was desperately needed.

Furthermore, some other perspectives were already described in this highly interesting article written by Mr. Jason Long, and titled "It Could Have Been a Contender". Story is completely unambiguous, therefore additional explanations are completely unneeded. Please, just follow this link:

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/2072/He162.html

It is evident that high-level lack of forethought, personal dislike, persecutions and personal intrigues in the Luftwaffe plagued numerous valuable projects, and the excellent He 280 was not an exception.

windrider
07-30-2008, 08:23 AM
Remember, ME-262s that were shot down were shot by maneuverable fighters that cut into their big turns.

Sorry, but I disagree with this statement. Most 262 kills were done not in dogfight but when the jetplanes were on landing approach, out of fuel, flying on a strait course.

snebold
07-30-2008, 08:57 AM
When Britain surrenders then Hitler could move his vastly needed units to the Russian front hopefully kicking their until they surrender. Then he could spread his Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe all over Europe. And with time he could increase his armies size and skill with volunteers, his industrial might increases: producing transportation vehicles and weapons at an good rate. Germany would be then very economically successful. And then hitlar would blitz the US, even though they are expecting war, and pour in weapons and men into the US and capturing the US in 1 month with the help of Italy and Japan forcing the US to fight on three fronts and Canada would be captured so that no US forces could escape to safety.

Pleeease...!! The He 280 (or any other flying object (unidentified ot not)) wouldn´t make anything like that remotely plausible.
And the He 280 lacked the endurance to escort anything cruising as slow as the He 111 very far.


This is just a crazy scenario i thought of!

Very crazy, yes.

The (very probably politically biased) decision to procure the Me 262 and not the He 280 was taken sometime in 1942. The He 280 could only have been in service earlier than the Me 262 if the HeS 8 engines of the early prototypes had been productionized. I don´t know when development of these were abandoned, but they produced no more than 600kg thrust each.

Panzerknacker
07-30-2008, 09:40 AM
I agree with the bomber killer part, but it is more maneuverable than an FW-190A. It could of won the Battle of Britain as an escort fighter for the German workhorse He-111. Remember, ME-262s that were shot down were shot by maneuverable fighters that cut into their big turns.


The part: "it was maneouvrable than a Fw-190A" is very weird, I dont know I going to check it it.

And it could not won the Battle of Britain simply because even with full political support it wouldnt be ready for combat in 1940

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/3575/he2804mr8.jpg

Sergej
07-30-2008, 10:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF2WsyKOZOE

Librarian
07-30-2008, 10:24 AM
I completely do agree with you, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker – this whole thing about better maneuverability of the He 280 looks completely strange, but undisputable historical fact is that on December 22, 1943 a real mock-dogfight was staged for the RLM officials, in which the He 280 was matched against a FW 190 - He 280 not only demonstrated its vastly superior speed, but also outmaneuvered its opponent! After all, aforementioned fact is not so unexpected: its wingload was only 191kg/m2, less than one at hand with the FW 190-D!

Please, just follow this link:

http://www.geocities.com/lastdingo/aviation/he280.htm

SS Ouche-Vittes
07-30-2008, 07:08 PM
Sorry, but I disagree with this statement. Most 262 kills were done not in dogfight but when the jetplanes were on landing approach, out of fuel, flying on a strait course.

yes I am aware of that, but theres footage of them being shot down by p51s too! I should of said some of their deaths were from agile planes.

Panzerknacker
08-01-2008, 10:45 AM
He 280 not only demonstrated its vastly superior speed, but also outmaneuvered its opponent!


Amazing, I wasnt aware of that

Panzerknacker
08-01-2008, 06:23 PM
By the way I found this document in "Germany WW2 jet aces" of John Weal ( osprey aircraft of the aces series)


http://i33.tinypic.com/9k85y1.jpg

Librarian
08-02-2008, 09:42 AM
What a beautiful letter, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker! Unfortunately, our highly esteemed Oberbeamter never explained in this greatly polite epistle why he never ordered a cessation of another, highly astonishing, but from the military point of view completely unproductive program connected with the legendary Me 163 "Kraftei" – airplane utterly unique in the whole history of the air warfare by its astonishingly unproductive combat score. He never explained why he permitted an open abuse of those limited German productive capacities by means of open favoring of the serial production of a most dangerous ever built warplane (just bear in mind the personal destiny of that poor fellow, lieutenant Joschi Pohs).

You know, those 370 fabricated Me 163 machines actually have consumed certain amounts of raw materials, machinery, competent manpower, etc. which was highly usable in the manufacturing process of a standardized, non-problematic, much more effective warplane – Me 262. For example, simple abandonment of the highly specialized T-stoff production by means of the bulky Riedl-Pfleiderer process at Leuna Werke Merseburg was capable to free some special production capacities for polymeric-assisted production of the Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl – an highly effective anti-knocking gasoline additive invented in 1939, capable to perk up octane number of the standard distilled German row-gasoline from ROZ 67 to ROZ 140, if only added to gasoline in quantity of 0.3 grams per gallon. After that a completely new generation of the DB 605 engine series equipped with a compression ratio of 11:1 was completely attainable too - with all other beneficent characteristics like increased power, narrowed fuel consumption, stipulation of completely standardized engine production (no, in that case we don’t need the DB 603 – our good old DB 605 is now completely capable to deliver an output of 2100 HP!), etc, etc. But that highly desired standardization was somehow absent… :(

Abbandonment of the production of our previously mentioned absolute leader on a list of the most useless ever built German weaponry, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker, together with all those obviously devastating repercussions toward German war effort, somehow slipped away from memory of our distinguished Herr Generalfeldmarschall. And this highly respected, always creative, utterly rational and at all times morally superior personality - who otherwise never used his official position to settle personal scores with other personalities from the German aviation industry - never effectually explained why he constantly approved continuation of the production of other vastly unproductive types like Me 110, Me 210 A, Me 410, Ju 87, Ju 52/3m, etc. Just imagine, my dear Mr. Panzerknacker those liberated production lines within [ATG, Henschel, Junkers, Siebel, Fieseler[/i] and Weser, capable to start a truly amassed production of a capable airplane, machine sufficiently skilled to regain the air supremacy over German territory to the Luftwaffe – to manufacture an aircraft like the He 280.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a137/Langnasen/He280-1.jpg

Heinkel works – Rostock: Heinkel He 280 with Hans Antz, Hans von Ohain, Fritz Shafer (in cockpit), Gotthold Peter, and two unidentified technicians

But those answers – alas! – are and still will be completely unavailable for us. What a pity… :(

Panzerknacker
08-02-2008, 11:08 AM
I remember the case in wich Göring ordered that further development in the He-177 should be stopped in 1942, however Heinkel continued nevertheless.

So yea, of all combattants in WW2 the german bureocracy was by far the less effective and the more work/cost expensive.

SS Ouche-Vittes
08-03-2008, 05:45 PM
its the dam nazi's fault! They wanted a streamlined bomber so they forced the he-177 with 2 engines coupled in one cowl. The he-177 had so much trouble that more of them went down due to engine fires then being shot down. The he-277 was a version with 4 separate engines that was only in prototype stage after they realized they were stupid.

Panzerknacker
08-03-2008, 08:58 PM
And dont forget the divebombing requeriment, divebombing with a 4 engines aircraft would made the wings bend like paper after a high G recovery.

Uyraell
03-14-2009, 01:08 PM
I remember the case in wich Göring ordered that further development in the He-177 should be stopped in 1942, however Heinkel continued nevertheless.

So yea, of all combattants in WW2 the german bureocracy was by far the less effective and the more work/cost expensive.
Slightly inaccurate, my friend.
What Goring ordered was that no further work on a four-engined He.177 derivative was to continue.
However, as the DB610 twinned engines were the major source of basically unresovable problems with the He.177 Heinkel secretly continued work on the four-engined prototypes, hoping to present the RLM with a fait-accompli which it would be likely to accept in preference to ongoing crew losses of the He.177.
IIRC, the gist of Goring's actual words were close enough to:"No! I have had enough! Do NOT mention the four-engined project to me again!" One of the books in my early collection had a sentence very close to the above. Sadly, I no-longer have the book.

Regards, Uyraell.

snebold
03-15-2009, 10:25 AM
"Goering forbade Heinkel to pester him anymore with talk of four engined versions", is a wording I´ve read.