PDA

View Full Version : Scharfschützen, snipers, weapons and tactics.



Panzerknacker
06-19-2008, 06:07 PM
First an article extracted from "The german sniper 1914-45" by Peter R. Senich wich has been reproduced in several sites and books.

THE GERMAN SNIPERS

The following article first appeared in the official Austrian military publication called TRUPPENDIENST (Troop Service) in the year 1967 and was written by an Austrian Army Officer, Captain Hans Widhofner. Among persons questioned were the two most proficient German snipers of the war with the comments of another good sniper added to obtain a well-rounded picture concerning the use of snipers in the German army.
Questions asked of the Snipers
Widhofner questioned three seasoned snipers individually. They are designated in the order A, B and C. All three were members of the Third Mountain Division of the former German Army. With respect to their person please note the following:

A. Matthais Hetzenauer of Tyrol fought at the Eastern Front from 1943 to the end of the war, and with 345 certified hits is the most successful German sniper.

B. Sepp Allerberger of Salzburg fought at the Eastern Front from December 1942, to the end of the war, and with 257 certified hits is the second-best German sniper.

Sepp Alleberger

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/9076/seppallerbergerxa7.jpg

C. HelMut Wirnsberger of Styria fought at the Eastern Front from September 1942, to the end of the war and scored 64 certified hits (after being wounded he served for some time as instructor on a sniper training course).



1. Weapons used?
A. K98 with six-power telescopic sights. G43 with four-power telescopic sights.
B. Captured Russian sniper rifle with telescopic sight; I cannot remember power. K98 with six-power telescopic sights.
C. K98 with 1.5-power sights. K98 with four-power telescopic sights. G43 with four-power telescopic sights.

2. Telescopic sights used?
A. Four-power telescopic sight was sufficient up to a range of approximately 400 meters, Six-power telescopic sight was good up to 1,000 meters.
B. Used for two years a captured Russian rifle with telescopic sight; yielded good results, Six-power telescopic sight mounted on K98 was good.
C. 1.5-power telescopic sight was not sufficient; four-power telescopic sight was sufficient and proved good.

3. What is your opinion on increasing the magnification of your telescopic sights?
A. & B. Six-power was sufficient. There was no need for stronger scope. No experience with greater magnification.
C. Four-power is sufficient in both cases.


http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2465/76no.jpg

4. At what range could you hit the following targets without fail?
A. Head up to 400 meters. Breast up to 600 meters. Standing Man up to 700-800 meters.
B. Head up to 400 meters. Breast up to 400 meters. Standing up to 600 meters.
C. Head up to 400 meters. Breast up to 400 meters. Standing Man up to 600 meters.

5. Do the ranges indicated by you apply only to you, i.e. the best snipers, or also to the majority of snipers?
A. & B. Only to the best snipers.
C. To me personally as well as to the majority of snipers. A few outstanding snipers could hit also at longer ranges.
B added: Absolutely positive hitting is possible only up to about 600 meters.

6. What was the range of the furthest target you ever fired at, and what kind of target, size?
A. About 1,000 meters. Standing soldier. Positive hitting not possible, but necessary under the circumstances in order to show enemy that he is not safe even at that distance! Or superior wanted to satisfy himself about capability.
B. 400 to 700 meters.
C. About 600 meters, rarely more. I usually waited until target approached further for better chance of hitting. Also confirmation of successful hit was easier. Used G43 only to about 500 meters because of poor ballistics.


7. How many second shots / Additional shots were necessary per ten hits?
A. Almost never.
B. One to two. Second shot is very dangerous when enemy snipers are in the area.
C. One to two at the most.

8. If you had a choice, what weapon would you use and why?
A. K98. Of all weapons available at that time it had the highest accuracy for permanent use, besides it did not jam easily. G43 was only suitable to about 400 meters. It also had inferior precision.
B. K98 was best. The G43 was to heavy.
C. The G43 would be good if it did not jam easily and its capacity was as good as K98.



( to be continued...)

Panzerknacker
06-19-2008, 06:10 PM
Part II:


9. Today if you had the choice between the K98 and a semi-automatic rifle that does not easily jam and has the same capacity as the K98, which weapon would you take and why?
A. Snipers do not need a semi-automatic weapon if they are correctly used as snipers.
B. Semi-automatic loader, if its weight does not increase.
C. Semi-automatic loader. Faster firing possible when attacked by the enemy.

10. Were you incorporated into a troop unit?
All three belonged to the sniper group of the battalion. C was the commander of this group. They numbered up to 22 men; six of them usually stayed with battalion, the rest were assigned to the companies. Observations and use of ammunition as well as successful hits had to be reported daily to the battalion staff. In the beginning, the snipers were called up cut of the battalion, as the war continued and the number of highly-skilled snipers decreased, they were often assigned and given their orders by the division. In addition, a few marksmen in each company were equipped with telescopic sights. These men did not have special training but were able to hit accurately up to about 400 meters and carried out a great deal of the work to be done by "actual snipers". These specially equipped riflemen served in the company as regular soldiers. This is why they could not achieve such high scores as the "snipers".

11. Strategy and Targets?

a. Attack:
A, B, C, Always two snipers at a time; one shoots, the other spots. Usual general order:- Elimination of observers, of the enemy's heavy weapons and of commanders, or special order, when all important or worthwhile targets were eliminated; for example! Anti-tank gun positions, machine gun positions. Etc. Snipers followed closely the attacking units and whenever necessary. Eliminated enemies who operated. Heavy weapons and those who were dangerous to our advance.
A added: In a few cases, I had to penetrate the enemies main line of resistance at night before our own attack. When our own artillery had opened fire. I had to shoot at enemy commanders and gunners because our own forces would have been too weak in number and ammunition without this support.

http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/4742/vcqwr8ci4.jpg


B. Attack during night:
A, B, C, As far as we can remember, no major attacks during night were conducted, snipers were not used at night; they were too valuable.


C. Winter attacks:
A. Clothed in winter camouflage I followed behind the front units. When the attack slowed down had to help by engaging machine gunners and Anti tank guns etc.
B, C, Good camouflage and protection against cold was necessary. No extensive ambushing possible.


b. Defense:
A, B, C, Usually on my own within company detachment; order fire at any target or only worthwhile targets. Great success during enemy attacks since commanders can often be recognized and shot at long range due to their special clothing and gear such as belts crossed on chest, white camouflage in winter, etc. As a consequence, enemy's attack was prevented in most cases. Shot the respective leaders of enemys attack eight times during one attack. As soon as enemy snipers appeared we fought them until they were eliminated; we also suffered great losses. As a rule, the sniper watched for worthwhile targets at the break of dawn and remained in position until dusk with few interruptions. We were often in position in front of our own lines in order to fight the enemy more successfully. When enemy knew our position, we were forced to remain without provisions or reinforcements at such advanced position. During alarm or enemy attack, a good sniper did not shoot at just any target, but only at the most important ones such as commanders, gunners, etc.


e. Defense during night:
A, B, C, Snipers not used during night; not even assigned to guard duty or other duties. If necessary he had to take position in front of own lines in order to fight the enemy more effectively during the day.

12. Did you score successful hits by moonlight?
A. I was often called to action when there was sufficient moonlight since reasonably accurate hitting is possible with a six-power telescopic sight, but not with point and rear sight.
B. C. No.


g. Delaying action:
A, C, In most cases four to six snipers were ordered to rear guard and eliminate any enemy appearing; very good results. Use machine guns for rear guard only in emergencies since snipers delayed enemy's advance by one or two hits without easily revealing his own position.
B. No actual use of snipers, actual sniping not possible in mobile warfare since anybody shoots at appearing enemy.

12. In what warfare could the sniper be most successful?
A. The best success for snipers did not reside in the number of hits, but in the damage caused the enemy by shooting commanders or other important men. As to the merit of individual hits, the snipers best results could be obtained in defense since the target could be best recognized with respect to merit by careful observation. Also with respect the numbers, best results could be obtained in defense since the enemy attacked several times during a the day.
B. Defense. Other hits were not certified.
C. Best results during extended positional warfare and during enemy attacks; good results also during delaying action.

Panzerknacker
06-19-2008, 06:23 PM
Part III


13. Percentage of successful hits at various ranges?
Up to 400 meters A. 65 percent C. 80 percent
Up to 600 meters A. 30 percent C. 20 percent
Additional information: A. This is why about 65 percent of my successful hits were made below 400 meters.

B. Do not remember. Mass of hits were below the range of 600 meters.
C. Shot mainly within range of 400 meters due to great possibility of successful hit. Beyond this limit hits could not be confirmed without difficulty.

14. Do these percentages and ranges apply to you personally or are they valid for the majority of snipers?
A. This information is applicable to the majority of snipers as well as to the beat snipers, for: the majority of snipers could hit with absolute certainty only within a range of 400 meters due to their limited skills, the best snipers could hit with reasonable certainty at longer ranges; they in most cases, however, waited until enemy was closer or approaching the enemy in order to better choose the target with respect to its merit.
B. Information is applicable to all snipers known to me in person.
C. Information is applicable to myself as well as to the majority of snipers.

15. On the average, how many shots were fired from one position ?

a. Attack:
A, B, C. As many as necessary.


b. Defence from secure position:
A, B, C, One to three at most.


c. Enemy attack:
A, B, C, Depending on worthwhile targets.


d. Combat against enemy snipers:
A, B, C, One to two at most.


e. Delaying action:
A, B, C, One to two was sufficient since sniper was not alone.
B added: During own attack as well as enemy's attack, hits were not confirmed.

16. What else is especially important in addition to excellent marksmanship?
A: Besides the generally known quality of a sniper it is especially important to be able to outsit the enemy. The better "Tactician at detail" wins in combat against enemy snipes. The exemption from commitment to any other duties contributes essentially to the achievement of high scores.
B. Calmness, good judgment courage.
C. Patience and Perseverance, excellent sense of observation.

17. From what group of persons were snipers selected?
A. Only people born for individual fighting such as hunters, even poachers, forest rangers, etc without taking into consideration their time of service.
B. Do not remember. I had scored 27 successful hits with Russian sniper rifle before I was ordered to participate in sniper training course.
C. Only soldiers with experience at the front who were excellent riflemen; usually after second year of service; had to comply with various shooting requirements to be accepted in the sniper training courses.

18. In what sniper training courses did you participate?
A, B, C: Sniper courses at the training area Seetaleralpe.
C. I was later assigned to the same course as an instructor.

19. Was it advisable to equip the sniper with a double telescope? What magnification did the double telescope have?
A. 6 x 30 enlargement was insufficient for longer distances. Later I had a 10 x 50 telescope which was satisfactory.
B. Double telescope was equally important as rifle. No further information.
C. Every sniper was equipped with a double telescope. This was useful and necessary. An enlargement of 6 x 30 was sufficient up to a range of about 500 meters.

20. Would you prefer a periscope which allows observation under full cover?
A. Was very useful as supplement (Russian trench telescope).
B. No.
C. Was used when captured.

21. Were scissor stereo telescopes (positional warfare) used?
A, C. Yes, when available. Was used mutually by sniper and artillery observer.
B. No.

http://www.udisco.com/hobbies/pics/003595.jpg



22. What type of camouflage was used?
A,B,C. I have never used a fake tree stump, but I have used camouflage clothing. Camouflage of my face and hands and camouflage of my weapon in winter. (White cover, white wrapping, white paint)
B added: For two years I used an umbrella which was painted to match the terrain. In the beginning I always camouflaged face and hands well. Later on, less often.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v163/bootyac/sniper1.jpg

23. Did you use technical means to mislead the enemy?
A. Yes, stuffed dummies, etc.
B. Yes; for example, dummy position with installed carbines which could be fired by means of a wirepull.
C. No.

24. Did you use protective shields in positional warfare?
A, B, C. No.

25. What is your opinion on the use of tracer ammunition?
A, B, C. If possible, they should not be used at all in combat since they have easily revealed the position of the sniper. Tracer ammunition was mainly used for practice shooting as well as ranging at various distances. For this purpose every sniper carried with him a few tracer cartridges.

26. Did you use observation ammunition, i.e. cartridges that fired projectiles, which detonate upon impact?
A, B, C. Yes; upon impact a small flame as well as a small puff of smoke could be seen which allowed good observation of impact. By this method we could force the enemy to leave wooden houses, etc by setting tire to them.
Observation cartridges were used up to a range of about 600 meters; their dispersion was somewhat larger than that of heavy pointed cartridges (heavy pointed bullet).

27. How did you overcome side wind?
A. By my own judgment and experience. When necessary, I used tracer ammunition to determine wind drift. I was well prepared for side wind by my training at Seetaleralpe where we practiced often in strong winds.
B. By own judgment. We did not shoot when side wind was too heavy.
C. No explanation since snipers do not shoot with strong winds.

28. Can you recall the rules pertaining to your behavior when shooting at moving targets?
A, B, C: No; importance is own judgment and experience as well as fast aiming and fast firing.

29. Do you have any experience with armor piercing rifles?
A. Yes, several times I have fought against a "machine-gunner with a protective shield". I could hit small targets only up to 300 meters since dispersion was considerably larger than with K98. Besides, it was very heavy and clumsy and was not suitable as a sniper weapon. I did not use it against unarmored targets.
B, C. No.

30. What was the method by which your hits were certified?
A, B, C, By observation and confirmation by an officer, non-commissioned officer or two soldiers. This is why the number of certified hits is smaller than the actual score.

imi
06-20-2008, 06:23 AM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4671951584554913075

Panzerknacker
06-20-2008, 10:01 AM
Very nice :), that video is also in Youtube splitted in several parts.

Another good one, training of the scharfschützen with the semiautomatic K-43 carabine.

left clik only.
http://www.wochenschau-archiv.de/kontrollklfenster.php?&PHPSESSID=&dmguid=08E92C0055BA58DF030103009D21A8C00D0A000000&inf=354920&outf=456880&funktion=play250k

Panzerknacker
06-20-2008, 09:10 PM
Ballistic tables for the SS ( schweres spitzgeschoss= heavy pointed bullet) 7,92mm ammunition fired from the K98 (from the G 43 the muzzle velocity was slightly less)

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/2917/792x57mmjs198grssballisnv8.jpg

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/115/sssniperscope2ag6.png

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/scoped-k98k-mosin-nagant-range-13601.html

imi
06-21-2008, 02:40 AM
Mauser have great sound in the second part :)
Man when I get one...I have one clip of target :D

Panzerknacker
06-21-2008, 07:34 PM
The videos in that page are good, but not quite realistic to demonstrate the actual capabilities of the K-98K and Mosin, remember, those are modern, very high magnification telescopic sights and modern ammo.

I am convinced that there are several differences between those and ww2 ones.

imi
06-22-2008, 05:30 AM
These are stronger bullets?

BearMgk
06-22-2008, 05:57 AM
well the best german snipers on the soviet front where beat by female snipers (there where males too) i readed a book recently about that...

German snipers where good they had the upper hand on many fields and had good tactics (superior)

imi
06-22-2008, 06:11 AM
I see a few picture of female snipers in the front page,they are looking good but I dont wanna be a boyfriend of these girls

BearMgk
06-22-2008, 12:02 PM
hahah! :mrgreen:
nice sayed man! no some of them are sweet altrought they kinda old now... :shock:

Panzerknacker
06-22-2008, 08:20 PM
Russian/soviet female snipers did killed a lot of male german soldiers, but your statement " the best german snipers on the soviet front where beat by female snipers" is a bit excesive or wishful thinking.

Can you provide sources/websites showing that?


These are stronger bullets?

No really, I think they are more "consistent" with less variations between shots.

Moreheaddriller
06-22-2008, 08:27 PM
id accutally like to find out which female had the most kills does any one know

BearMgk
06-23-2008, 06:28 AM
ok im gonna give info give me some time to find it again

BearMgk
06-23-2008, 06:31 AM
Ok here it is ;)





http://wio.ru/galgrnd/sniper/sniper.htm


here is all the info you need!

Moreheaddriller
06-25-2008, 04:49 PM
Thanks for the site Bearmgk talk about a lady you dont wanna mess with

imi
06-26-2008, 06:58 AM
This Surkov kid is a really Bad *** MFK! :D

Panzerknacker
07-20-2008, 04:37 PM
Some notes on the subject of ranges and ammunition , scanned from "Osprey Elite 68, the Military Sniper since 1914"

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1609/82978460ih7.jpg


http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8440/11038758jo8.jpg

flamethrowerguy
07-20-2008, 08:02 PM
In the book "Im Auge des Jägers" the german (austrian, to be more exactly)sniper Sepp Allerberger reports that he and other german snipers issued themselves with captured explosive ammunition of either russian or yugoslavian origin for "important shots". Germany - he goes on - hadn't produced this kind of ammo firstly because its usage would mean a violation of the Geneva Convention.

Panzerknacker
07-21-2008, 05:06 PM
Actually Germany did produce something like the "zara" russian explosive bullet, that was the B-patrone wich was used as observation cartrigde by Luftwaffe gunners, the difference was the Whermatch didnt use in the infantry rifle until late in the war, 1944 I think.

Check the first 3 post , there is something about this bullet.


26. Did you use observation ammunition, i.e. cartridges that fired projectiles, which detonate upon impact?

A, B, C. Yes; upon impact a small flame as well as a small puff of smoke could be seen which allowed good observation of impact. By this method we could force the enemy to leave wooden houses, etc by setting tire to them.
Observation cartridges were used up to a range of about 600 meters; their dispersion was somewhat larger than that of heavy pointed cartridges (heavy pointed bullet).

Panzerknacker
08-11-2008, 07:27 PM
Parachutist scharfschütze.

flamethrowerguy
08-11-2008, 07:43 PM
Very nice drawing, something I could imagine hanging above my fire place.

Panzerknacker
08-11-2008, 09:07 PM
Another one. SS Gebirgs scharfschütze.

Both plates made by the argentine artist Ramiro Bujeiro.

Semper Fi
08-11-2008, 10:45 PM
Did the SS troops put their Sniper rifles in trees or was that the normal German army?

Semper Fi
08-11-2008, 11:07 PM
Well I think that thet Sharp shooters of the German Army were good ( very good) But some things could be improved on. But the addition of stronger scopes are a good idea. Because Allied snipers wanted to add stronger scopes but had not training for it. But the German Army had the time and they could have been training, for the up coming war. They all knew that the Americans would jion in on the war.

Panzerknacker
08-12-2008, 05:26 PM
I suppose they use trees as many other available cover but I belive that wasnt the rule.

Is a very vulnerable emplacement.

flamethrowerguy
08-12-2008, 06:30 PM
In the book "Im Auge des Jägers" (In the eye of the hunter) german sniper Josef "Sepp" Allerberger explains chossing a tree as a location for a sniper was one of the most stupid things to do since you're unable to relocate quick enough when detected. A common mistake either by unexperienced and/or female russian snipers (also according to the book).
Talking of snipers in Waffen-SS unit, this issue remained unattended for a long time by the Waffen-SS leadership because they considered sniper warfare as an dishonorable way of fighting.
BTW, those camo face masks on the drawing have been a total failure in practice since it limited the snipers field of vision way too much.

Panzerknacker
08-12-2008, 07:00 PM
BTW, those camo face masks on the drawing have been a total failure in practice since it limited the snipers field of vision way too much


Probably so, the mask is rarely seen in scharfschutzen pictures.

http://i36.tinypic.com/iqzqyg.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/2vtpjqh.jpg

Panzerknacker
11-12-2009, 04:54 PM
Funny thing, seems that the trees were not so bad after all, sniper in italy above a pinetree.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-297-1728-22%2C_Im_Westen%2C_Scharfsch%C3%BCtze.jpg

elit-sniper
12-28-2009, 10:38 AM
tanks for remenber the germans snipers of ww2 and for remenber the best rifle in the world "k98" realy i love here .......!
for me the k98 best than the "russian mosen nanght" and the germans sniper is the best sniper in the world war 2............viva les tireurs d'elite

Deaf Smith
12-28-2009, 06:22 PM
http://i36.tinypic.com/iqzqyg.jpg

Now THAT is a smart idea this guy had.

Notice the snipers rifle has a hole in the rear scope ring base and a "V" in the front scope ring base. He can use the open sights as well as the scope.

It's even smarter than most think. It allows you to sight in the open sights, say at 300 meters, then sight in the scope at whatever they decide as their base range for the scope. Then look with the scope at 50 meters, and notice where the open sights look at the same range. Then keep that relationship in mind.

That way you can check your scope real easy any day of the week. Just put the sights on a target at 50 meters, and then look through the scope and verify the alighment relationship is on.

If they drop the rifle or bang it somehow and worry about the alighment, a quick check will tell the tell.

That's the setup you want!

Deaf

bas
12-30-2009, 06:22 AM
Now THAT is a smart idea this guy had.


It's not his idea, its pretty standard on a lot of sniper set-ups. Keep in mind that soldiers don't get to choose their kit like some computer game, it is issued to them.



That way you can check your scope real easy any day of the week. Just put the sights on a target at 50 meters, and then look through the scope and verify the alighment relationship is on.


No you can't, at least not without a rest to keep the rifle in a fixed position, you see as you shift your head from looking down the sights to looking down the scope your body changes position and your original hold is lost. This comes from experience, both with lazy bore sighting and my mosin sniper (which also allows for use of iron sights).

bas
12-30-2009, 06:36 AM
Funny thing, seems that the trees were not so bad after all, sniper in italy above a pinetree.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-297-1728-22%2C_Im_Westen%2C_Scharfsch%C3%BCtze.jpg

Quite probably a posed photo Panzer, although the book, The German Sniper 1914-1945 has an extract from a German training manual showing how to position in a tree. So I am sure that under very specific circumstances trees have their use.

Nickdfresh
12-30-2009, 07:31 AM
Quite probably a posed photo Panzer, although the book, The German Sniper 1914-1945 has an extract from a German training manual showing how to position in a tree. So I am sure that under very specific circumstances trees have their use.

Yeah, like when there are no .50 caliber machine-guns around... :evil:

Panzerknacker
12-31-2009, 04:56 PM
Quite probably a posed photo Panzer, although the book, The German Sniper 1914-1945 has an extract from a German training manual showing how to position in a tree. So I am sure that under very specific circumstances trees have their use.


Probably so, but as you said, could be used in special cases (desperation?) the tree is a good observation plataform but once you are spotted you are dead. I ve hunted with shotgun a couple of small wild hogs from a tree ( shotgun with ball/slug that is) and my body hurted for 2 days, quite unconfortable.

Deaf Smith
12-31-2009, 09:10 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-297-1728-22%2C_Im_Westen%2C_Scharfsch%C3%BCtze.jpg

Japanese used same tactic, abet with LOTS more camouflage, for sniping.

But as everyone here can see, that's a good way to die.

If you read the book, "A Rifleman Went to War", by McBride (it's about McBride's experience in WW1 as both a sniper and machine gunner) you will find a few German snipers actually did use trees.

Unfortunately he writes about one time where they figured out where the sniper was in the trees and zeroed in a couple of machineguns and that was the end of that.

More interestingly, he wrote about rummaging through lots of different ’06 ammo, shooting them to find which lot was the most accurate, and from then on out tried to get just that lot of ammo for their snipping.

John George, in his book, "Shots Fired in Anger", also wrote about Japanese snipers in trees and the best medicine for them.

Deaf

Deaf Smith
12-31-2009, 09:13 PM
No you can't, at least not without a rest to keep the rifle in a fixed position, you see as you shift your head from looking down the sights to looking down the scope your body changes position and your original hold is lost. This comes from experience, both with lazy bore sighting and my mosin sniper (which also allows for use of iron sights).


Well hopefully you would have a rest! Not many sharpshooters do their plinking off hand at longer ranges.

I've used that method with Ruger Mini-14s (military peep and over-the-action scopes) and see-through scope mounts. I find it very handy to verify alignment.

Deaf

Rising Sun*
01-01-2010, 05:13 AM
I've posted this before in some other forgotten thread, but it's relevant here.


Buna, Papua, 28 December 1942: These three photographs show an Australian Bren gunner firing at a Japanese sniper position in a palm tree, the palm tree after it had been fired upon, and the body of the Japanese sniper at the base of the palm tree. The Bren gunner’s technique was to fire several bursts at a point six feet from the top of the tree, so weakening its trunk. The weight of the sniper then caused the tree to break and he was killed when he hit the ground 60 feet below.

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/013952

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/013965

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/013937


That doesn't alter the fact that Japanese snipers in trees in the jungle could be very effective for longish times as they were adept at camouflage and jungle trees and surrounding jungle gave them good cover.

bas
01-03-2010, 11:46 PM
Well hopefully you would have a rest! Not many sharpshooters do their plinking off hand at longer ranges.

Sure they use what ever features are available to rest their rifle on, but WWII snipers (or modern day snipers) certainly did not carry a bench mountable rifle rest into the field (they weren't even issued bi-pods). And in order to do what you suggest, this is the type of rest you would need, a bipod or branch is not sufficient.


I've used that method with Ruger Mini-14s (military peep and over-the-action scopes) and see-through scope mounts. I find it very handy to verify alignment.

Deaf

I just tried it out with my SVD, using a fixed object as my rest and a sign hanging on a fence 70-80m away and just even the general shake natural to all shooting invalidated your idea, but as I moved my head up to the scope I could see the rifle move position noticably.

Besides, military iron sights are just too rough to compare to the optics of a scope.

bas
01-03-2010, 11:50 PM
That doesn't alter the fact that Japanese snipers in trees in the jungle could be very effective for longish times as they were adept at camouflage and jungle trees and surrounding jungle gave them good cover.

And that they were probably prepared to keep fighting to the death so weren't really planning a escape route.

bas
01-04-2010, 12:12 AM
Extract from The German Sniper 1914- 1945 P.g. 133


While German training manuals did depict riflemen in trees, this was merely standard training for the German soldier. Tree slings were reportably issued for this purpose and it is more than likely that they were utilized primarily by observers and casual riflemen. Even though various sharpshooter training courses did elaborate on the best methods of climbing trees to secure an advantages firing position, this was an effort to prepare the sniping specialists for any eventuality rather than an exercise resulting in self-destruction

There were, no doubt circumstances that may have necessitated the use of a tree "hide" by true snipers, but when one considers the extreme difficulty in obtaining a position required for accuracy while so precariously perched and the difficulty in withdrawing from such a position, it seems doubtful that an accomplished sniper would make extensive use of such positions.

Actually thinking about that sentence makes you wonder at just how effective the Japanese snipers actually were. I can't believe that it would be the easiest to get in an accurate shot from the top of a swaying palm tree. I'm sure that they were effective in inspiring fear in allied troops, but did they account for a high number of casualities?

Also Rising Sun, looking at those pictures, I have to wonder if there isn't a little Aussi humor at play there. It would have taken quite a few magazines from a bren gun to actually weaken the trunk enough so that it would break. Easier to spray the tree and kill the sniper and then shoot the top off to give the journalists a nice story and photos.

Deaf Smith
01-04-2010, 05:38 PM
I just tried it out with my SVD, using a fixed object as my rest and a sign hanging on a fence 70-80m away and just even the general shake natural to all shooting invalidated your idea, but as I moved my head up to the scope I could see the rifle move position noticably.

Besides, military iron sights are just too rough to compare to the optics of a scope.


Bas, you are not trying to sight the rifle in, just making sure the scope has not been knocked out of alignment (as can happen if you drop the rifle or bump the scope.)

And a bipod works fine. Just don't touch the stock once you have aimed the rifle at a target. Even a sand bag will do. Just rest the gun on it and have it point at the target. Don't touch the rifle. And then check the sights.



Actually thinking about that sentence makes you wonder at just how effective the Japanese snipers actually were. I can't believe that it would be the easiest to get in an accurate shot from the top of a swaying palm tree. I'm sure that they were effective in inspiring fear in allied troops, but did they account for a high number of casualities?

Since usually they were not shooting 100 yards, it would work. Not at 600, but in jungles 100 yards is alot.

Deaf

Panzerknacker
01-13-2010, 08:17 PM
3 more photos of scharfschütze in the west extracted from the german federal archives, dated 1944.

http://i49.tinypic.com/11tsdp1.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ilda3t.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/f39bn5.jpg